Discussion Estimating Characters PL

[MrSchmitty7]

“ If their powers work identical “ ? Of course they work identical, it’s the same Sunshine from the SD

Why would Escanor have some special variation when Ludociel senses the same power radiating from Escanor ? He even confirmed it was giving to Mael & has the same effects on Escanor than it did with Mael

This makes so sense, it’s the same power

The SD has 4 Graces, Sunshine is one of them, Mael got super strong until afternoon, same with Escanor

It’s the same ability until Nakaba backtracks

Because Escanor’s appears to have just chosen him and was birthed into his genetics and plus there’s still more to his backstory. Mael’s was given to him by another person. Also sensing power doesn’t make them identical. Fraudrin thought that Zaratara’s magic was Gilthunder’s at one point and Melascula said that Diane’s power was identical to Drole’s in spite of the fact that he has ground and she has creation.

I just find it kinda weird that Nakaba would want to make a human copy of Mael. I think there’s some differences between the two

Also Ludoshel never said that they were identical. The only thing that he confirmed was that both grow stronger during the day. He hasn’t seen Escanor fight yet.

 

[sobreno]

Because Escanor’s appears to have just chosen him and was birthed into his genetics and plus there’s still more to his backstory. Mael’s was given to him by another person. Also sensing power doesn’t make them identical. Fraudrin thought that Zaratara’s magic was Gilthunder’s at one point and Melascula said that Diane’s power was identical to Drole’s in spite of the fact that he has ground and she has creation.

I just find it kinda weird that Nakaba would want to make a human copy of Mael. I think there’s some differences between the two

That is still the same grace, created by the Supreme Deity. It chooses him after Mael's death and it was said that the grace was lost.

He can be Mael's reincarnation or whatever. Elizabeth was a Goddess and she reincarnated as a Human.

The point is that Mael = Escanor = Sunshine = same grace with the same exact mechanics.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

That is still the same grace, created by the Supreme Deity. It chooses him after Mael's death and it was said that the grace was lost.

He can be Mael's reincarnation or whatever. Elizabeth was a Goddess and she reincarnated as a Human.

The point is that Mael = Escanor = Sunshine = same grace with the same exact mechanics.

So inspite of the fact that we have seen identical magics make deviants in usage because of the user; we’re just going to assume that Escanor doesn’t follow this rule when we have no information about Mael? Is that what you’re saying?

 

[sobreno]

So inspite of the fact that we have seen identical magics make deviants in usage because of the user; we’re just going to assume that Escanor doesn’t follow this rule when we have no information about Mael? Is that what you’re saying?

Yeah because Sunshine isn't a mere awakened magic, it is a power created by a God and held by one of her Archangels. Like Flash, Ocean and Tornado.

Escanor doesn't train to awaken it, he had it active since childhood lol.

Mael doesn't matter, we got the true origin of Sunshine, it is a grace created by the SD. That is all that matters here.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Yeah because Sunshine isn't a mere awakened magic, it is a power created by a God and held by one of her Archangels. Like Flash, Ocean and Tornado.

Escanor doesn't train to awaken it, he had it active since childhood lol.

Mael doesn't matter, we got the true origin of Sunshine, it is a grace created by the SD. That is all that matters here.

It may have been created by the SD, but for all intents and purposes it still functions as regular magic. It can be full countered, sensed, etc. Spells aren’t awakened magics either, yet they still function the exact same way and even differ in power depending on the user.

 

[sobreno]

It may have been created by the SD, but for all intents and purposes it still functions as regular magic. It can be full countered, sensed, etc. Spells aren’t awakened magics either, yet they still function the exact same way and even differ in power depending on the user.

It isn't really like the regular magic because:

1) He can't control it, he is controlled by it.
2) He didn't active it by training ( like 100% of the magic inherent ability of NNTverse ), he had from childhood.

Tornado functions like that too, Sariel uses it like if it was his magic ability but it really isn't the case.

It is the same thing for Mael or anyone having that grace. I don't see why you don't accept that clear fact.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

It isn't really like the regular magic because:

1) He can't control it, he is controlled by it.
2) He didn't active it by training ( like 100% of the magic inherent ability of NNTverse ), he had from childhood.

Tornado functions like that too, Sariel uses it like if it was his magic ability but it really isn't the case.

It is the same thing for Mael or anyone having that grace. I don't see why you don't accept that clear fact.

Where was it ever said that it doesn’t qualify as regular magic if you can’t control it?

Also Jericho didn’t train to awaken her magic. It just appeared one day

Fact is there are identical things in NNT that vary in power thanks to the user. Chandler’s spells are a lot stronger than Merlin’s because he has a much better affinity with magic. The same logic could possibly be applied to Escanor. The problem is we’re assuming how he works without knowing anything about him. We don’t even know how he got sunshine or what measures allow him to use it Id say it’s better to wait before drawing conclusions

 

[kkck]

It may have been created by the SD, but for all intents and purposes it still functions as regular magic. It can be full countered, sensed, etc. Spells aren’t awakened magics either, yet they still function the exact same way and even differ in power depending on the user.

I am not sure sunshine works as a regular magic. Ludociel made the point that graces were equivalent to the commandments. That would mean graces are essentially bits of the supreme goddess' power. It would make sense that she also took half her power and split it into 4 graces. In context we could make the point that graces are even superior to commandments since half her power was split into 4 parts rather than 10. Taking that in consideration, there is no way they even function as regular magic. They are actual parts of a god's power. That would be like saying the commandments are regular curses (pro tip, they aren't). We haven't seen the graces fully at work yet but it they should be exceptional compared to regular magic on many fronts. In terms of power, depth, effect... We will likely see soon but even if they are visually the same as regular magics in context they simply can't be.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

I am not sure sunshine works as a regular magic. Ludociel made the point that graces were equivalent to the commandments. That would mean graces are essentially bits of the supreme goddess' power. It would make sense that she also took half her power and split it into 4 graces. In context we could make the point that graces are even superior to commandments since half her power was split into 4 parts rather than 10. Taking that in consideration, there is no way they even function as regular magic. They are actual parts of a god's power. That would be like saying the commandments are regular curses (pro tip, they aren't). We haven't seen the graces fully at work yet but it they should be exceptional compared to regular magic on many fronts. In terms of power, depth, effect... We will likely see soon but even if they are visually the same as regular magics in context they simply can't be.

The problem is we keep hyping the gods and making it seem like everything they do is special. Realistically if you have potential you can train to be a god. They’re graces, yes, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t magic. If a regular full counter can hit them then they work the same way.

Even before we knew Escanor’s power was a grace nobody said that it worked differently or had special properties.

Also graces are similar to commandments in the fact that they come from a god, but they aren’t commandments. Commandments are curses, graces are just magic abilities

 

[sobreno]

Where was it ever said that it doesn’t qualify as regular magic if you can’t control it?

Fact is there are identical things in NNT that vary in power thanks to the user. Chandler’s spells are a lot stronger than Merlin’s because he has a much better affinity with magic. The same logic could possibly be applied to Escanor. The problem is we’re assuming how he works without knowing anything about him. We don’t even know how he got sunshine or what measures allow him to use it Id say it’s better to wait before drawing conclusions

Because everyone controls their magic in NNT, you don't see anyone activating randomly his own inherent magic without their own will.

Escanor is different, he is forced to go through those transformations no matter what thanks to the grace ability. He is the puppet here, not the master in control.

Chandler's spell has better because he has higher mana output than Merlin. It doesn't matter with Sunshine because it is a different case. As I said, don't compare a grace from a deity to a regular magic or spells.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Because everyone controls their magic in NNT, you don't see anyone activating randomly his own inherent magic without their own will.

Escanor is different, he is forced to go through those transformations no matter what thanks to the grace ability. He is the puppet here, not the master in control.

Chandler's spell has better because he has higher mana output than Merlin. It doesn't matter with Sunshine because it is a different case. As I said, don't compare a grace from a deity to a regular magic or spells.

Assault mode Mel is the direct result of Mel’s darkness corrupting his mind and soul according to Merlin. Plus Mel lost his own power in the past because he couldn’t control it with his emotions

Again, your argument is “well they’re a deity so it must be different”. Fact is Escanor’s power is no different than a regular magic. Everything you listed about his magic being special has been done by others. So I’m gonna need more proof as to why his magic is different instead of “deities that’s why” plus deities don’t even matter because a regular person with potential can train to become one

 

[Rescorlian]

OGowther was probably around 70 or 80k, since he didn't fear Zeldris at all and seemed fairly confident to take him on (despite Zeldris having the DK magic)

 

[sobreno]

Assault mode Mel is the direct result of Mel’s darkness corrupting his mind and soul according to Merlin.

Again, your argument is “well they’re a deity so it must be different”. Fact is Escanor’s power is no different than a regular magic. Everything you listed about his magic being special has been done by others. So I’m gonna need more proof as to why his magic is different instead of “deities that’s why” plus deities don’t even matter because a regular person with potential can train to become one

What? How it has a relation to what we are talking about? By the way, it is because he lost his emotions that his darkness corrupts him even more. The fact is that he goes back to the way he was before, just like the DK stating in the purgatory.

My argument makes sense because it is already the case, Escanor's power is different than regular magic for the fact I stated above. It is revealed that his power is a grace created by the SD. Done by others? Who?
You realize that Meliodas is literally the only one stated to have the potential to reach them? And lol at him being a " regular person ", the DK doesn't want a regular person to be his successor.

 

[Tragicdeath]

The way i think PL's go :
AM Meliodas (142k)
Strength - 130k
Magic - 7k
Spirit - 5k
As for 11:59 Escanor i would say 125k-130k at the very least (and a lot of it in strength), since at 114k he wasn't even able to scratch Mel with an all out slash with Rhitta. But when he punched him 4-5 panels after that he was able to damage him a little, that's why i'm going with more than 114k. And "The One" it could be 15k above AM Mel or 100k so we don't know because it's been shown that a 15k difference is enough for someone to not take damage or to oneshot.

Yes i think so Escanor is at 123k to 125k PL at noon but no more than 130k because if you gonna base factor rate on his sunshine it is almost on the right path. When the sun rises he gets around 50060 PL. And when he fought Estarossa 30 minutes before 12nn he has 114000 PL. So in other words he has a boost of around 63-64k from the moment he activated sunshine. Most probably early sunrise is at 8am so that would be 3 hours and 30 mins equivalent of 7 times 30 minutes. If base factor rate of his sunshine 5 x 60 seconds x 30 mins gives him 9k PL boost per 30 minutes. Therefore 9K multiplied by 7 gives you 63k PL. So 63k plus 50060 equals 113060 which is close to 114k basing the factor rate 5 x 60 x 30 every 30 minutes.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

What? How it has a relation to what we are talking about? By the way, it is because he lost his emotions that his darkness corrupts him even more. The fact is that he goes back to the way he was before, just like the DK stating in the purgatory.

My argument makes sense because it is already the case, Escanor's power is different than regular magic for the fact I stated above. It is revealed that his power is a grace created by the SD. Done by others? Who?
You realize that Meliodas is literally the only one stated to have the potential to reach them? And lol at him being a " regular person ", the DK doesn't want a regular person to be his successor.

The point was was that “since Escanor can’t control his magic it must be different” I said that Mel can’t control his magic either. Assault mode corrupts his mind and soul and then I even gave another example of how whenever he got really mad he lost control of his darkness (which has a relationship with his emotions)

Again what physical differences are there from Escanor’s magic. With the commandments we can tell the differences without having to resort to “DK that’s why”. With Escanor we cannot though. His grace works identical to any regular magic. There is nothing in the manga that has shown that they work differently so far. I mean do you have evidence or is “Supreme Deity” just gonna be the default?

The things so far that you listed that made them different:

“Escanor can’t control his magic” already shown by Mel who loses control of his magic whenever he gets angry

“Escanor didn’t train to awaken his magic” Neither did Jericho, who just got it by being upset one day

I mean so far the only differences are that it’s called a grace, but that doesn’t mean it can’t work like magic

And of course Mel is the only one who can train to become the DK. We can’t have like 7 other contenders running around, that’s just bad writing

 

[Tragicdeath]

Or maybe some of the guys here are right that gives quadriple the factor rate jump in span of 30 minutes reaches his peak giving him added 36k PL total of 150k PL in 1 minute giving him the advantage against AM Mel at 142k. But the question really is how come hes unscathable of Mels divine slayer giving thousand slashes in an instant with hell blaze or dark magic hurl of flame which Escanor is pretty unique.

 

[kkck]

The problem is we keep hyping the gods and making it seem like everything they do is special. Realistically if you have potential you can train to be a god. They’re graces, yes, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t magic. If a regular full counter can hit them then they work the same way.

Even before we knew Escanor’s power was a grace nobody said that it worked differently or had special properties.

Also graces are similar to commandments in the fact that they come from a god, but they aren’t commandments. Commandments are curses, graces are just magic abilities

but... the stuff that gods do IS special. I don't see how that is even debatable. And who said escanor's power didn't have special properties? We have seen escanor recover from wounds that would kill a normal humans and fight and defeat demons that no human in history could ever hope to put a dent on. Even izraf commented on how escanor's sunshine surpassed demon's black fire. We had literally every reason to believe sunshine was bullshit levels of special. If anything it being a measly grace makes it less special.

And of course, graces are magic, that is also not debatable. However them being actual pieces of the god's power is very relevant. They are without a doubt superior to normal magic. Meliodas being able to full counter a sunshine attack does not change that.

And another thing to consider here in regards to the gods being special... We know for a fact that training alone can make meliodas into a being comparable to the demon king. Meliodas simply doesn't do that because it would take too long. With that in mind, the gods are probably merely beings with insane pl. Odds are that it is PL alone that makes a god and having more pl is enough to give the gods power even over life and death. Otherwise meliodas training to become a god wouldn't be a possibility.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

but... the stuff that gods do IS special. I don't see how that is even debatable. And who said escanor's power didn't have special properties? We have seen escanor recover from wounds that would kill a normal humans and fight and defeat demons that no human in history could ever hope to put a dent on. Even izraf commented on how escanor's sunshine surpassed demon's black fire. We had literally every reason to believe sunshine was bullshit levels of special. If anything it being a measly grace makes it less special.

And of course, graces are magic, that is also not debatable. However them being actual pieces of the god's power is very relevant. They are without a doubt superior to normal magic. Meliodas being able to full counter a sunshine attack does not change that.

And another thing to consider here in regards to the gods being special... We know for a fact that training alone can make meliodas into a being comparable to the demon king. Meliodas simply doesn't do that because it would take too long. With that in mind, the gods are probably merely beings with insane pl. Odds are that it is PL alone that makes a god and having more pl is enough to give the gods power even over life and death. Otherwise meliodas training to become a god wouldn't be a possibility.

Their power is incredible, yes, but that doesn’t mean we can say it’s special magic without having any proof. Chandler for instance can warp day to night, but his is just regular magic. Ban like the Demon King is immortal, but Ban just drank magical fairy water.

When I say I need to see something about Escanor that makes him different, I mean that I need to see something that is unique only to his grace. For example, only commandments can curse people by lying. So unless Escanor’s grace does something completely crazy I’m not gonna say it’s different. Because so far all we know from the graces is that they’re just OP magics. They haven’t done anything unique that a regular person hasn’t shown before. So far Escanor’s power is just something that’s op. Nothing more or less. It beat the purgatory fire because it’s stronger, and he beat Mel because he was stronger. That’s not ground breaking

Even breaking out of Melascula’s gloom cocoon (which we all thought was impossible) makes sense now because we have evidence instead of just hype.

 

[kkck]

Yes i think so Escanor is at 123k to 125k PL at noon but no more than 130k because if you gonna base factor rate on his sunshine it is almost on the right path. When the sun rises he gets around 50060 PL. And when he fought Estarossa 30 minutes before 12nn he has 114000 PL. So in other words he has a boost of around 63-64k from the moment he activated sunshine. Most probably early sunrise is at 8am so that would be 3 hours and 30 mins equivalent of 7 times 30 minutes. If base factor rate of his sunshine 5 x 60 seconds x 30 mins gives him 9k PL boost per 30 minutes. Therefore 9K multiplied by 7 gives you 63k PL. So 63k plus 50060 equals 113060 which is close to 114k basing the factor rate 5 x 60 x 30 every 30 minutes.

Escanor's power does not necessarily increase at the rate you suggest. I maintain that escanor bulking up at different points in the day rather than always at the same time of the day is evidence that escanor suppresses his power most of the time and his bulking up at insanely convenient times is simply evidence that he stops suppressing his power. Against izraff he bulked up near dawn, against estarosa he bulked up at 11:30 and against meliodas he bulked up mere minutes before noon. Not to mention that he doesn't bulk up every day. The rate which you are suggesting is what we saw against galan... Which would be the slowest possible increase in PL for escanor at that point in the day given how much power he was already using (it doesn't seem like supressing his power after having unleashed it is an option).

 

[sobreno]

The point was was that “since Escanor can’t control his magic it must be different” I said that Mel can’t control his magic either. Assault mode corrupts his mind and soul and then I even gave another example of how whenever he got really mad he lost control of his darkness (which has a relationship with his emotions)

Again what physicals difference are there from Escanor’s magic. With the commandments we can tell the differences without having to resort to “DK that’s why”. With Escanor we cannot though. His grace works identical to any regular magic. There is nothing in the manga that has shown that they work differently so far. I mean do you have evidence or is “Supreme Deity” just gonna be the default?

The things so far that you listed that made them different:

“Escanor can’t control his magic” already shown by Mel who loses control of his magic whenever he gets angry

“Escanor didn’t train to awaken his magic” Neither did Jericho, who just got it by being upset one day

I mean so far the only differences are that it’s called a grace, but that doesn’t mean it can’t work like magic

Meliodas's magic is Full Counter. He can control his Assault Mode just fine ( he did that in the past in his glory days as stated by Estarossa when he showed his awakened powers ), the DK is the external factor that stole his emotions.

Escanor is different, whether he is calm or angry, that doesn't matter, he is passively controlled by Sunshine. Meliodas is totally a different case yet again.

Again, it really isn't, why he can use Sunshine power ( that you call like a regular magic ) at night? If it is like any regular magic? So, stop comparing that grace with regular magic.
What? Jericho trained and awaken her power after being affected emotionally, she didn't awaken her power when she was a child like Escanor.

Sunshine can work like a magic ( like Tornado ) but it is still different than regular magic due to his origin.