Discussion Estimating Characters PL

[MrSchmitty7]

Mel could after the training in Istar, that was the purpose of that training and he succeed. I know that he couldn't prior to that training.
Escanor is literally different, this power can't be controlled, he can't stop himself at becoming the One at 12 A.M, no matter what, he is forced to go into that cycle. Due to his mechanics, it is literally impossible to control it lol.

Nope, Escanor had that power since when he was child, without any training. He called that a curse lol.

Again, your analogy is not pertaining to the point at hand. Sunshine is a grace that was created by the SD, it forces his user to go into cycle of transformation and power during the day and remain inactive during the night. The user doesn't have a say here. That case is unique to Escanor in this entire manga.

But the databook implies that Escanor can gain control of it though to an extent. And again do you have a manga page that states that magic that can’t be controlled isn’t regular magic?

Hendrickson is the same thing. He had his power since he was a child. How’s that any different from Escanor?

Also my whole analogy was that Escanor could be more proficient in using sunshine than Mael could be as we have seen from other users with similar powers. I’m not sure why we’re on the topic of his transformation. Same way how King and Gloxinia both have the same magic, yet Gloxonia has already stated that King can already draw out as much power as he can.

 

[sobreno]

But the databook implies that Escanor can gain control of it though to an extent. And again do you have a manga page that states that magic that can’t be controlled isn’t regular magic?

Hendrickson is the same thing. He had his power since he was a child. How’s that any different from Escanor?

Also my whole analogy was that Escanor could be more proficient in using sunshine than Mael could be as we have seen from other users with similar powers. I’m not sure why we’re on the topic of his transformation. Same way how King and Gloxinia both have the same magic, yet Gloxonia has already stated that King can already draw out as much power as he can.

The databook implies his wish, that doesn't mean that it can become a reality, more when we know the origin of Sunshine now and the mechanics. He is passively controlled by it, how he can stop that passive effect on Sunshine on his body? That is impossible lol.

As I said, it isn't the same thing, that power isn't awakened by Escanor, it chooses him, that is completely different, and the fact that the grace was lost implies that.
He said that himself, that he had that power since the day that he was born. You can't compare that grace that works alone without Escanor's will to all those regular magic abilities.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

The databook implies his wish, that doesn't mean that it can become a reality, more when we know the origin of Sunshine now and the mechanics. He is passively controlled by it, how he can stop that passive effect on Sunshine on his body? That is impossible lol.

As I said, it isn't the same thing, that power isn't awakened by Escanor, it chooses him, that is completely different, and the fact that the grace was lost implies that.
He said that himself, that he had that power since the day that he was born. You can't compare that grace that works alone without Escanor's will to all those regular magic abilities.

Again do you have a manga page that states these facts? All magics work differently in this series and just because one is unique doesn’t mean it’s not magic. I could very well say that Merlin’s magic (who she was also born with, so nothing special there) is from a higher being than the SD and DK because it’s something they couldn’t make and I wouldn’t be able to be disproven because of the “it’s different therefore it must be special argument.”

Also a grace is just magic from the supreme deity, it doesn’t have its own power level by itself and can very well be dependent on the user’s proficiency. If that weren’t the case, then Escanor at 10 years old would be as strong as he is at 40. Can you imagine a 10 year old going into the one and unleashing all of that power without destroying his body?

I need more info instead of “it’s an op grace so invalid.” This sounds just like the people who say Batman can beat Jesus himself simply “because he’s Batman.” Can you give me some manga evidence that shows graces doing something that regular magic can’t do. Because so far

Merlin has been born with her magic, just like Escanor
He didn’t have to train to awaken it, just like Hendrickson
And it forces him to be “bi-polar”. Just like how Mel’s Assault Mode won’t allow him to have emotions or It won’t work.

 

[sobreno]

Again do you have a manga page that states these facts? All magics work differently in this series and just because one is unique doesn’t mean it’s not magic. I could very well say that Merlin’s magic (who she was also born with, so nothing special there) is from a higher being than the SD and DK because it’s something they couldn’t make and I wouldn’t be able to be disproven because of the “it’s different therefore it must be special argument.”

Also a grace is just magic from the supreme deity, it doesn’t have its own power level by itself and can very well be dependent on the user’s proficiency. If that weren’t the case, then Escanor at 10 years old would be as strong as he is at 40. Can you imagine a 10 year old going into the one and unleashing all of that power without destroying his body?

I need more info instead of “it’s an op grace so invalid.” This sounds just like the people who say Batman can beat Jesus himself simply “because he’s Batman.” Can you give me some manga evidence that shows graces doing something that regular magic can’t do. Because so far

Merlin has been born with her magic, just like Escanor
He didn’t have to train to awaken it, just like Hendrickson
And it forces him to be “bi-polar”. Just like how Mel’s Assault Mode won’t allow him to have emotions or It won’t work.

Again, Sunshine isn't a magic, it is a grace created by the SD, unlike all the others magic that you are talking about. It is said to be " created ", nothing has that kind of label so far for the others magic.

I don't think that is just a " magic ", the same way that commandments aren't just " magic " either. Indeed, Escanor can go into that form even as a Kid, since he had Sunshine and he should transform at noon no matter what, he isn't in command here.

Merlin is indeed a special case but an external case didn't create Infinity, she was born with that magic, hence why the Gods wanted her. How do you know that Hendy didn't train?
Meliodas had emotions in the past with his Assault Mode, it is the DK that won't allow him to have emotions.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Again, Sunshine isn't a magic, it is a grace created by the SD, unlike all the others magic that you are talking about. It is said to be " created ", nothing has that kind of label so far for the others magic.

I don't think that is just a " magic ", the same way that commandments aren't just " magic " either. Indeed, Escanor can go into that form even as a Kid, since he had Sunshine and he should transform at noon no matter what, he isn't in command here.

Merlin is indeed a special case but an external case didn't create Infinity, she was born with that magic, hence why the Gods wanted her. How do you know that Hendy didn't train?
Meliodas had emotions in the past with his Assault Mode, it is the DK that won't allow him to have emotions.

Regardless if it is created it still operates like a regular magic. If created magics are different then can you show something that they haven’t done before because “created” by itself literally means nothing for evidence. Spells are also created magic, yet they follow the exact same rules as innate magic. With the commandments we have visible differences that we can pull from the manga, but so far nothing for the graces.

And also saying that Escanor would have a 142K+ power level at age ten sounds insane. His body would be destroyed. He had to have gained proficiency with that magic. And if he did, then there are grounds to say that either he had more proficiency with sunshine than Mael did or vice versa. That’s why I don’t believe the two are equal, unless the power just turns every ten year old into assault mode plus level

As for how we know that Hendy didn’t train; Dreyfus gave the story of how he got his magic. He was just afraid of watching bodies decay and wanted to speed up the process. Plus he was a young boy at the time, so he wouldn’t have even had training to awaken his magic yet.

 

[sobreno]

Regardless if it is created it still operates like a regular magic. If created magics are different then can you show something that they haven’t done before because “created” by itself literally means nothing for evidence. Spells are also created magic, yet they follow the exact same rules as innate magic. With the commandments we have visible differences that we can pull from the manga, but so far nothing for the graces.

And also saying that Escanor would have a 142K+ power level at age ten sounds insane. His body would be destroyed. He had to have gained proficiency with that magic. And if he did, then there are grounds to say that either he had more proficiency with sunshine than Mael did or vice versa. That’s why I don’t believe the two are equal, unless the power just turns every ten year old into assault mode plus level

As for how we know that Hendy didn’t train; Dreyfus gave the story of how he got his magic. He was just afraid of watching bodies decay and wanted to speed up the process. Plus he was a young boy at the time, so he wouldn’t have even had training to awaken his magic yet.

Justly, it isn't. The mechanics of the grace and origin is the huge difference. That is the evidence.

The DK created the 10 Decrees, the SD created the 4 Graces, they aren't like regular magic or spell because of that " exact "reason.

But it is the case, he transforms during the day, regardless of his age lol, Sunshine works passively, remember?

Hendy must train in order to control his magic.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Justly, it isn't. The mechanics of the grace and origin is the huge difference. That is the evidence.

The DK created the 10 Decrees, the SD created the 4 Graces, they aren't like regular magic or spell because of that " exact "reason.

But it is the case, he transforms during the day, regardless of his age lol, Sunshine works passively, remember?

Hendy must train in order to control his magic.

Ok, but can you physically show how graces are different instead of just listing “origins”. Because that’s just becoming a buzz word. Can you imagine a study that only went “origins” “deities” “op”. No one would be able to gain any understandings. Is there observable evidence, not claims?

And again, Escanor’s transformation has nothing to do with how he uses the power. Where in the manga does it say that? His body was virtually wrecked after he used the one and this is when he was an adult. His child body would be slaughtered if he pulled out 142k+. The one had to have been weaker at 10 than it was at 40. Plus Escanor has shown that he can control how much power is poured out. He did it against the estarossa fight and while at the beach. Passively has nothing to do with how he controls his power.

What does Hendrickson’s training have to do with how he awakened acid though? The whole thing was that magics can be awakened without training. Learning to gain control is another debate

 

[sobreno]

Ok, but can you physically show how graces are different instead of just listing “origins”. Because that’s just becoming a buzz word. Can you imagine a study that only went “origins” “deities” “op”. No one would be able to gain any understandings. Is there observable evidence, not claims?

And again, Escanor’s transformation has nothing to do with how he uses the power. Where in the manga does it say that? His body was virtually wrecked after he used the one and this is when he was an adult. His child body would be slaughtered if he pulled out 142k+. The one had to have been weaker at 10 than it was at 40. Plus Escanor has shown that he can control how much power is poured out. He did it against the estarossa fight and while at the beach. Passively has nothing to do with how he controls his power.

What does Hendrickson’s training have to do with how he awakened acid though? The whole thing was that magics can be awakened without training. Learning to gain control is another debate

We don't have details of them except Sunshine but it is indeed different via his mechanics and passiveness.

Of course that he does, his transformation is due to Sunshine. So the rest is logic, no need to say how he was when he was a Kid, 20 years or 30 years. As long as he had Sunshine and it was the day, he transforms as we know already.

How can you control something that works passively without your will on command? That is virtually impossible lol.

Hendrickson has nothing to do with a debate with Sunshine either. And his magic isn't passive and he has control over the switch on and off.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

We don't have details of them except Sunshine but it is indeed different via his mechanics and passiveness.

Of course that he does, his transformation is due to Sunshine. So the rest is logic, no need to say how he was when he was a Kid, 20 years or 30 years. As long as he had Sunshine and it was the day, he transforms as we know already.

How can you control something that works passively without your will on command? That is virtually impossible lol.

Hendrickson has nothing to do with a debate with Sunshine either. And his magic isn't passive and he has control over the switch on and off.

Ok so we don’t have detail, but we’re gonna assume it’s different. That sounds kinda paradoxical.

Also no ones denying that he doesn’t transform, I’m saying that he’s grown stronger with sunshine over the years because of proficiency and of affinity. The transformation is only passive, the control of the heat and power isn’t. At the beach ban literally told him to turn down his power or he’d evaporate all the water.

Again, where does it say in the manga that passive magic is somehow different. Just because something is uncommon doesn’t make it ground breaking

 

[sobreno]

Ok so we don’t have detail, but we’re gonna assume it’s different. That sounds kinda paradoxical.

Also no ones denying that he doesn’t transform, I’m saying that he’s grown stronger with sunshine over the years because of proficiency and of affinity. The transformation is only passive, the control of the heat and power isn’t. At the beach ban literally told him to turn down his power or he’d evaporate all the water.

Again, where does it say in the manga that passive magic is somehow different. Just because something is uncommon doesn’t make it ground breaking

Like I said, we already have details about Sunshine and due to the origin of the graces ( creation of the SD ). And SD isn't a nobody, of course that is different.

We don't know that Escanor has no say over the Sunshine Power, a passive power is like that. We don't know if he has grown stronger with Sunshine, Sunshine cannot be controlled ( talking about PLs ), he gets at his peak at 12 AM without doing a single thing.

Because of the mechanics that it is different and honestly, knowing that a God created that grace is already groundbreaking since the Supreme Deity is the strongest being of the verse so far along with the Demon King.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Like I said, we already have details about Sunshine and due to the origin of the graces ( creation of the SD ). And SD isn't a nobody, of course that is different.

We don't know that Escanor has no say over the Sunshine Power, a passive power is like that. We don't know if he has grown stronger with Sunshine, Sunshine cannot be controlled ( talking about PLs ), he gets at his peak at 12 AM without doing a single thing.

Because of the mechanics that it is different and honestly, knowing that a God created that grace is already groundbreaking since the Supreme Deity is the strongest being of the verse so far along with the Demon King.

Well I guess we’ll just have to disagree, as I’d rather get more concrete details about the gods instead of just basing them off of hype. However in the manga Escanor has shown that he can control how much power he outputs. That’s why he’s always sleeping during the day according to the databook and Ban says he can control the sunshine output. If he has control over it he’d had to have grown proficient in it. But that’s just my theory. He’ll always peak at 12, but the amount of power would differ depending on his proficiency with magic imo

 

[sobreno]

Well I guess we’ll just have to disagree, as I’d rather get more concrete details about the gods instead of just basing them off of hype. However in the manga Escanor has shown that he can control how much power he outputs. That’s why he’s always sleeping during the day according to the databook and Ban says he can control the sunshine output. If he has control over it he’d had to have grown proficient in it. But that’s just my theory. He’ll always peak at 12, but the amount of power would differ depending on his proficiency with magic imo

Yeah, let's agree to disagree, although I doubt that he will control Sunshine one day since we are already at the end stage of the manga, but anything can still happen even if it is unlikely. ( IMO )

 

[Tragicdeath]

I think Im in the wrong page because it suppose to be PL but it seems the one Im unto is who will win, sobreno or mrschmitty7.lol. Anyhow, does anyone know the new stats of Merlin because I think this is her outdated stats.
PL - 4710
Strength - 70
Magic - 3450
Spirit - 1100

 

[Aldan]

I think Im in the wrong page because it suppose to be PL but it seems the one Im unto is who will win, sobreno or mrschmitty7.lol. Anyhow, does anyone know the new stats of Merlin because I think this is her outdated stats.
PL - 4710
Strength - 70
Magic - 3450
Spirit - 1100

No confirmed stats as far as I know. But let's look at it realistically. She overwhelmed Grayroad who has a total pl of 39k. Even w/o magic Grayroad has a strength stat of 10k so clearly Merlin's magic is not in the 3k range any more or she would have been helpless, infinity or not. Similarly, Fraudrin whose pl is at 33k ran away rather than attempting to fight against her. Thus it's safe to assume her pl exceeds either of theirs. Mel managed to overpower Derrieri and Monspiet pretty effortlessly with a 10k pl difference. Since Merlin didn't overtake them both its a little bit of a leap to assume that she possesses that much power, but it clearly exceeds Grayroad's by a fair margin. Couple that with the fact that she could immobilise Cusack with "run of the mill" ice magic, even if momentarily, without her sacred treasure and I think it's safe to assume her pl rests in the mid 40k region. I personally think it's around 60k given the hype around her, but 40ish is the more supported assumption.

 

[Tragicdeath]

No confirmed stats as far as I know. But let's look at it realistically. She overwhelmed Grayroad who has a total pl of 39k. Even w/o magic Grayroad has a strength stat of 10k so clearly Merlin's magic is not in the 3k range any more or she would have been helpless, infinity or not. Similarly, Fraudrin whose pl is at 33k ran away rather than attempting to fight against her. Thus it's safe to assume her pl exceeds either of theirs. Mel managed to overpower Derrieri and Monspiet pretty effortlessly with a 10k pl difference. Since Merlin didn't overtake them both its a little bit of a leap to assume that she possesses that much power, but it clearly exceeds Grayroad's by a fair margin. Couple that with the fact that she could immobilise Cusack with "run of the mill" ice magic, even if momentarily, without her sacred treasure and I think it's safe to assume her pl rests in the mid 40k region. I personally think it's around 60k given the hype around her, but 40ish is the more supported assumption.

Yep true it doesnt make any sense Merlin is almost as weak as Ban at 3220. Then Dianne is at 48k PL stronger than both Gowther 35400 and Meras 34k too.haha

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Yep true it doesnt make any sense Merlin is almost as weak as Ban at 3220. Then Dianne is at 48k PL stronger than both Gowther 35400 and Meras 34k too.haha

To be fair to gray road, she split up and by doing that probably divided up her power since at her base she is just a grouping of gray demons. Her splitting up probably weakened her significantly.

 

[Tragicdeath]

To be fair to gray road, she split up and by doing that probably divided up her power since at her base she is just a grouping of gray demons. Her splitting up probably weakened her significantly.

Oh ok how about Dianne at 48k compared to Meras 34k? Is this even fair? Or does it really follow that you are stronger in general not only strengthwise if your PL is higher than the other?

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Oh ok how about Dianne at 48k compared to Meras 34k? Is this even fair? Or does it really follow that you are stronger in general not only strengthwise if your PL is higher than the other?

Generally as a rule of thumb if your power level is drastically higher odds are you’re going to win 9/10 times. But they’re just estimates and it depends on the plot.

 

[OtakuFreak]

New material and discussion here:

Estarossa jumped to 88k and the weakest AA's were able to deal with him. So we can estimate that Sariel or Tarmiel are around this range. My guess would be 85-90k.

Ludoshel is stronger, so I would imagine he's between the range of 90-100k possibly.

Mael should have a similiar base to the other 3, probably the weakest considering he has sunshine, or maybe the strongest. So let's assume 80k. With sunshine, if he was in Escanors 114k situation against Meliodas he would've been 194. So his strongest forms are 200k+... yikes

Indura fodderized the Archangels, even when Ludoshel was using basic flash. So I'm guessing that in their weakest to strongest form, they could be between 100-120k. Reasonable?

Now for Elizabeth (Goddesss) - if the Indura took out AA's who are roughly 90k individually when they weren't at their strongest, then what should Elizabeth PL be? I'd estimate that she would be around the Indura level (100-120) higher then their weakest state but slightly inferior to their strongest form, as seen by them slowly pushing her back towards the end. Though I do think if it was a 1v1, she might've succeeded in purification against Indura with heavy difficulty.

Discuss, what you think?

 

[sobreno]

New material and discussion here:

Estarossa jumped to 88k and the weakest AA's were able to deal with him. So we can estimate that Sariel or Tarmiel are around this range. My guess would be 85-90k.

Ludoshel is stronger, so I would imagine he's between the range of 90-100k possibly.

Mael should have a similiar base to the other 3, probably the weakest considering he has sunshine, or maybe the strongest. So let's assume 80k. With sunshine, if he was in Escanors 114k situation against Meliodas he would've been 194. So his strongest forms are 200k+... yikes

Indura fodderized the Archangels, even when Ludoshel was using basic flash. So I'm guessing that in their weakest to strongest form, they could be between 100-120k. Reasonable?

Now for Elizabeth (Goddesss) - if the Indura took out AA's who are roughly 90k individually when they weren't at their strongest, then what should Elizabeth PL be? I'd estimate that she would be around the Indura level (100-120) higher then their weakest state but slightly inferior to their strongest form, as seen by them slowly pushing her back towards the end. Though I do think if it was a 1v1, she might've succeeded in purification against Indura with heavy difficulty.

Discuss, what you think?

I disagree with Mael and Escanor being 200K, you don't need that absurd number to solo completely a mere 142K. 160K is enough to solo him completely.

I think Ludo should be 90K and the Indura should be 90-100K because he still tanks their hits, although, he was getting overwhelmed pretty easily.
Elizabeth should be around 60K because the Archangels has physical stats on top of their magic power + graces, PL is not only magic, physical strength is there as well.

And we know that their graces boost them since it acts like magic power as well. Graces from the SD herself.