Discussion Estimating Characters PL

OtakuFreak

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Elizabeth has some hype but it is nothing compared to the Sins, Commandments and Archangels. She is mostly praised for her nature. 99% of her impressive feats are related to healing and purification. The only really offensive one I have in mind was her Ark which destroyed Derrierie's arm. In NNT, all the strongest have hype in-universe, that's why some fans have been disappointed by the TCs because of the wide gap in abilities in the team and for some reason Elizabeth should be the exception? I don't deny the possibility, but I can't see her as a top tier or someone who can be stronger than the Sins at all. Many Sins are far behind some Commandments and the Archangels but they are obviously going to get stronger.
You could count the biblical whale as a offensive and defensive ark, since it can work for both purposes (e.g attacking/swallowing enemies or defending Elizabeth).

i do understand what you are suggesting with the hype situation, but a character doesn't specifically need hype in order to be top tier. Chandler and Cusack were introduced out of nowhere, no introduction or significant hype and begane achieving top-tier feats such as wiping out the sins (etc). So it's not a specific requirement.

As for Elizabeth, I'm probably going to dip my argument into a bit of bias here, but Elizabeth to me does have significant hype.
I mean, she's the only daughter and subsequent child of the Supreme Deity, so it adds a layer of expectation that we have for her character and powers.
She's being praised over and over again by the AA's for her magic power - so she must have notable power.
She even admitted herself back 20-30 chapters ago that her power was not ''as it was'' - suggesting she's limited in a way, so it provides another layer of expectation and excitement we have for seeing her full powers, especially when she was a Goddess.
Then Elizabeth starts taking an initiative, moving Estarossa away, recently just summoned a biblical whale literally out of nowhere.

It might be just me, but to me these events and details add a layer of excitement and expectation for her character and personally, I see them as superior to the sins. I mean, besides the Old Kings praising Diane and KIng for being the future leaders, I don't see how they have bigger hype then her, and even then, that praise is equivalent to how she's a daughter of a God (in a sense). It might be as well I have little interest in Gowther's character at times, but I feel like he has little- to no hype(you'll probably dismiss me on this claim).

It does show that she was using her full power for her technique but it doesn't mean that she was superior to the others at all and again it was for a purifying spell. Plus she was unable to purify them by herself. Ludociel and the others reacting because of the wind her power generated doesn't mean that her power is superior to them. It means the magic was powerful. You don't need to be Archangel+ tier to have good feats. We have plenty of stuff like that in the manga.

As for a more recent comparison between Ludo and Elizabeth we have this.
It does show that she is superior to the others.

Goddesses do not rely on their physical strength to fight their enemies, outside of tanking attacks or dodging/reacting to attacks, the AA's haven't shown the physical ability to deliver devastating punches or kicks that members of the Demon Clan have. Essentially, every Goddess seems highly dependent on their magic (ark) in order to deliver damage on any enemy they may encounter, and I believe Elizabeth (Goddess) magic is vastly superior to each of the AA and hence why I play her above them.

Like I said before, it doesn't matter that she failed to purify the Indura by herself, what matters in the context of this discussion is how effective she was in comparison to the AA's. Ludoshel used the same magic as she did (ark) and wasn't able to deliver damage on Indura, even when Derriere was acting with little resistance at times (one blast she let hit her in the face). Yet, like I said, Elizabeth was able to significantly affect both Indura and force them to Phase 2 and still held them to a point of desperation. The point here is that her magic was more effective, and for it to be more effective then someone else, must mean her level of magic power (PL) is vastly higher than what Ludoshel demonstrated to us.

You can argue that because she used purification instead of an offensive ability against the Indura, allowed her to be more effective, but I have a problem with this idea. Nowhere is it stated in the manga or even suggested/hinted at by a character that an ark out of purification has higher levels of effectiveness then offensive ark against a demon. In fact, we have evidence to argue against this idea, as we saw that Fraudrin was not being purified out of Dreyfus body by Zaratras because he lacked the essential level of magic power to do it (PL) and had to create a special circumstance in order to do it (adding his life force to make up for the missing magic power needed).

Even Ludoshel indicates to us that purification is not superior to offensive ark, because he told Elizabeth to join forces with him and eliminate them. If purification was really superior to offensive ark in this situation, and it seems to be her specialty, why suggest to kill them with offensive ark rather than purify and kill? In my interpretation, he gave the indication that the level of effectiveness her power had for ''Let There Be Light'' would've been the same for other offensive arks, meaning she would still made them ''desperate'' or in the case of offensive ark, injure them significantly and even kill them (of course with Ludoshel's input).

As for that comparison, I'm not sure whether or not you are using it to support or disprove my claim? Those pages show the beams of light that Ludoshel and Elizabeth have, yet hers looks stronger, thicker and more out of control (more power) in comparison to Ludoshel's who is smaller and more stable.

Elizabeth not being at full power is a possibility, but we need more information about the compatibilities between hosts and Goddesses. For example, it was made clear that the Archangels were not at full power when they attacked Estarossa with their Arks, which is why they powered up and I assume they are at full power now(though the fact that Tarmiel is lacking his two other heads, which are part of his skill set bothers me a bit). Ludociel's case is a bit ambiguous, he said his host is perfect and might be able to use his full power without any kind of mutation. If he can, then it should be the case for Elizabeth as well since it is her own physical body and her powers have awakened.

The Ark she used on Esta was an offensive move and she also moved it because she didn't want to hear him. The Archangels confirmed it and even their combined Spiteful Saints were useless. It was simply too weak to damage Estarossa. FKS cleared this up. There is no reason to think she was holding back at all.
I have a problem with people assuming that Elizabeth is at the same level as she was as a Goddess.
Physically she's inferior in every way, she can't fly, innately heal (etc)
Magically, she hasn't demonstrated the level of power that she did against the Indura. She was able to significantly affect 2 Indura who could be 100k+ and make them desperate, but her magic fails to inflict a single scratch on Estarossa who is way below Indura? (at 60k). I could argue that she didn't really go after him with the intent to kill or harm so it influenced the effectiveness of her magic, but like Sariel said, the magic she used should've hurt him, and considering what she did against Indura you would think it would've done damage, UNLESS she was crippled and not at her full magic power.

Elizabeth herself even said that the power she has now (as human) is not what it used to be (Goddess) at a moment in time. She didn't specifically say it like this but she worded it in a sense that gave me this interpretation (chapters 233-235 I can't find it right now if you really want to see it).

The 1 VS 2 situation doesn't matter. Tarmiel knew she was facing two and said it. He faced them himself.
It does matter to an extent.

You criticise her for failing to single handedly purify Indura, and I gave you a reason why.
I'll just reiterate, if it's a 1v2 then the engagement becomes even more difficult and I might have mentioned this (idk), but if she was, let's say for example against Indura Derriere alone (1v1) then she could've combined the second drill of light into one with the other, and have a stronger attack against a single individual, but because it's a 1v2 she has to compensate (2 drills not one like she showed when purifying Diane) which makes her struggle. She wasn't out of her depth significantly anyway, a small power boost from the AA allowed her to immediately purify them, she was on the edge of purifying them herself, she just needed that little push, hence why I say if it was 1v1, she would've succeeded.
 

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Eli's powerlevel at her strongest is probably somewhere in the 60k range.
Spirit-2900,Strength-2000,Magic-60000
 

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Eli's powerlevel at her strongest is probably somewhere in the 60k range.
Spirit-2900,Strength-2000,Magic-60000
If sariel and tarmiel at indeed at the 88k range then eli has to be much higher than that. During the fight against the indura's ludociel's attack didn't even make derieri indura flinch... Meaning the indura themselves are higher than a mere 88k. You shouldn't be able to supress an indura in any way unless your power is equal or greater to it after all. Elizabeth against the indura was IMO above 100k. I would still make the point that at her height she probably compares to even AM meliodas. She is the SD's daughter after all. She like meliodas and zeldris probably has some prodigy thing going on. I mean, elizabeth purified melascula, a commandment, with her mained powers in her human form....
 

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If sariel and tarmiel at indeed at the 88k range then eli has to be much higher than that. During the fight against the indura's ludociel's attack didn't even make derieri indura flinch... Meaning the indura themselves are higher than a mere 88k. You shouldn't be able to supress an indura in any way unless your power is equal or greater to it after all. Elizabeth against the indura was IMO above 100k. I would still make the point that at her height she probably compares to even AM meliodas. She is the SD's daughter after all. She like meliodas and zeldris probably has some prodigy thing going on. I mean, elizabeth purified melascula, a commandment, with her mained powers in her human form....
100k Elizabeth?lel
That would mean her magic is in the 90k range which I find very hard to believe.
 

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100k Elizabeth?lel
That would mean her magic is in the 90k range which I find very hard to believe.
AA are at 90k+

The majority of that will be magic since they aren't physical fighters.
We saw Ludoshel's magic fail miserably against a single Indura - not a scratch.

Yet Elizabeth made two Phase 2 Indura desperate against her.
Because of this, how did you come to the conclusion that her magic would be inferior to that of the AA?
60k and she's making Indura's (100k+) desperate? Talk about illogical.
She could clearly only do this feat if she was at Indura level, or superior to them.
 

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AA are at 90k+

The majority of that will be magic since they aren't physical fighters.
We saw Ludoshel's magic fail miserably against a single Indura - not a scratch.

Yet Elizabeth made two Phase 2 Indura desperate against her.
Because of this, how did you come to the conclusion that her magic would be inferior to that of the AA?
60k and she's making Indura's (100k+) desperate? Talk about illogical.
She could clearly only do this feat if she was at Indura level, or superior to them.
AA are 88K, Ludoshel is around 90K, only Meal surpass the 100K thanks to the One ( cough Escanor cough ).

Elizabeth isn't anywhere near that level, not even 60K to be honest because of nothing concrete point in that fact.
She isn't AA level, not a fighter and didn't have any hype at the level. Even Tarmiel pointed that out.

All you do is baseless speculation, you have zero numbers on your side.

She used purification, a type of hax to directly target their darkness, she risked her life here. ( as noted by Monspiet and Derrierie )
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
You could count the biblical whale as a offensive and defensive ark, since it can work for both purposes (e.g attacking/swallowing enemies or defending Elizabeth).

i do understand what you are suggesting with the hype situation, but a character doesn't specifically need hype in order to be top tier. Chandler and Cusack were introduced out of nowhere, no introduction or significant hype and begane achieving top-tier feats such as wiping out the sins (etc). So it's not a specific requirement.

As for Elizabeth, I'm probably going to dip my argument into a bit of bias here, but Elizabeth to me does have significant hype.
I mean, she's the only daughter and subsequent child of the Supreme Deity, so it adds a layer of expectation that we have for her character and powers.
She's being praised over and over again by the AA's for her magic power - so she must have notable power.
She even admitted herself back 20-30 chapters ago that her power was not ''as it was'' - suggesting she's limited in a way, so it provides another layer of expectation and excitement we have for seeing her full powers, especially when she was a Goddess.
Then Elizabeth starts taking an initiative, moving Estarossa away, recently just summoned a biblical whale literally out of nowhere.

It might be just me, but to me these events and details add a layer of excitement and expectation for her character and personally, I see them as superior to the sins. I mean, besides the Old Kings praising Diane and KIng for being the future leaders, I don't see how they have bigger hype then her, and even then, that praise is equivalent to how she's a daughter of a God (in a sense). It might be as well I have little interest in Gowther's character at times, but I feel like he has little- to no hype(you'll probably dismiss me on this claim).



It does show that she is superior to the others.

Goddesses do not rely on their physical strength to fight their enemies, outside of tanking attacks or dodging/reacting to attacks, the AA's haven't shown the physical ability to deliver devastating punches or kicks that members of the Demon Clan have. Essentially, every Goddess seems highly dependent on their magic (ark) in order to deliver damage on any enemy they may encounter, and I believe Elizabeth (Goddess) magic is vastly superior to each of the AA and hence why I play her above them.

Like I said before, it doesn't matter that she failed to purify the Indura by herself, what matters in the context of this discussion is how effective she was in comparison to the AA's. Ludoshel used the same magic as she did (ark) and wasn't able to deliver damage on Indura, even when Derriere was acting with little resistance at times (one blast she let hit her in the face). Yet, like I said, Elizabeth was able to significantly affect both Indura and force them to Phase 2 and still held them to a point of desperation. The point here is that her magic was more effective, and for it to be more effective then someone else, must mean her level of magic power (PL) is vastly higher than what Ludoshel demonstrated to us.

You can argue that because she used purification instead of an offensive ability against the Indura, allowed her to be more effective, but I have a problem with this idea. Nowhere is it stated in the manga or even suggested/hinted at by a character that an ark out of purification has higher levels of effectiveness then offensive ark against a demon. In fact, we have evidence to argue against this idea, as we saw that Fraudrin was not being purified out of Dreyfus body by Zaratras because he lacked the essential level of magic power to do it (PL) and had to create a special circumstance in order to do it (adding his life force to make up for the missing magic power needed).

Even Ludoshel indicates to us that purification is not superior to offensive ark, because he told Elizabeth to join forces with him and eliminate them. If purification was really superior to offensive ark in this situation, and it seems to be her specialty, why suggest to kill them with offensive ark rather than purify and kill? In my interpretation, he gave the indication that the level of effectiveness her power had for ''Let There Be Light'' would've been the same for other offensive arks, meaning she would still made them ''desperate'' or in the case of offensive ark, injure them significantly and even kill them (of course with Ludoshel's input).

As for that comparison, I'm not sure whether or not you are using it to support or disprove my claim? Those pages show the beams of light that Ludoshel and Elizabeth have, yet hers looks stronger, thicker and more out of control (more power) in comparison to Ludoshel's who is smaller and more stable.



I have a problem with people assuming that Elizabeth is at the same level as she was as a Goddess.
Physically she's inferior in every way, she can't fly, innately heal (etc)
Magically, she hasn't demonstrated the level of power that she did against the Indura. She was able to significantly affect 2 Indura who could be 100k+ and make them desperate, but her magic fails to inflict a single scratch on Estarossa who is way below Indura? (at 60k). I could argue that she didn't really go after him with the intent to kill or harm so it influenced the effectiveness of her magic, but like Sariel said, the magic she used should've hurt him, and considering what she did against Indura you would think it would've done damage, UNLESS she was crippled and not at her full magic power.

Elizabeth herself even said that the power she has now (as human) is not what it used to be (Goddess) at a moment in time. She didn't specifically say it like this but she worded it in a sense that gave me this interpretation (chapters 233-235 I can't find it right now if you really want to see it).



It does matter to an extent.

You criticise her for failing to single handedly purify Indura, and I gave you a reason why.
I'll just reiterate, if it's a 1v2 then the engagement becomes even more difficult and I might have mentioned this (idk), but if she was, let's say for example against Indura Derriere alone (1v1) then she could've combined the second drill of light into one with the other, and have a stronger attack against a single individual, but because it's a 1v2 she has to compensate (2 drills not one like she showed when purifying Diane) which makes her struggle. She wasn't out of her depth significantly anyway, a small power boost from the AA allowed her to immediately purify them, she was on the edge of purifying them herself, she just needed that little push, hence why I say if it was 1v1, she would've succeeded.
Ludoshel's beam one is also far longer lmao.

Elizabeth's magic isn't above of the AA, you are wanking, nothing indicated that in the manga. Zero statement so far, it is only your headcanon here.
And the Archangels are the elites with each having a grace ( SD power ) on top of their top tier Goddess Power.

Edge of purifying them? Lmao, she was sweating like hell, she was on the edge of collapsing herself, she used her Full Power into that purification technique and even that, couldn't do anything on her own.
The Archangels helped her and then, they purified them together, after that, she collapsed and go back to sleep again. ( two times in the flashback lmao )
 

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New power level

Sariel & Tarmiel -88000 to 90000

Ludo-90000 to 100000 (not more than that)

Still they get crushed by AM Meliodas
 

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Elizabeth isn't anywhere near that level, not even 60K to be honest because of nothing concrete point in that fact.
I really don't know how I can explain it simpler than I already have.

Ludoshel magic - can't scratch Indura
Elizabeth magic - makes two Indura desperate

Fandom: Yeah, Elizabeth magic is definitely inferior to Ludoshel, there's nothing in this manga that suggests otherwise

?

How do you come to this conclusion. The entire engagement between herself and Indura suggested that her magic is superior to her.
Nakaba made it so her release of magic was more powerful/amazing then Ludoshel's.
He made it pretty clear

She isn't AA level, not a fighter and didn't have any hype at the level. Even Tarmiel pointed that out.
Pacifism doesn't reduce PL.
Hype doesn't reduce PL.

So this is irrelevant.

All you do is baseless speculation, you have zero numbers on your side.
So what, we only believe a character is truly powerful or special when we get a number (PL) on them? Because if that's the case you better hold the same opinion about Elizabeth here towards every top tier demon besides Mel and Esta.

It's almost as if this fandom is terrified of making assumptions about a character's PL unless Nakaba spoon-feeds it to them.
He doesn't make moments like the Indura, where Elizabeth did better than the AA to turn around and go ''yeah elizabeth is inferior lol'.

She used purification, a type of hax to directly target their darkness.
Yes, purification targeted the darkness, so what's your point here?
I already know you're going to pull the ''purification > offensive ark'' argument, but like I've said before, this is a claim that has no evidence behind it, so it's irrelevant and invalid.

Nowhere is it mentioned or suggested that purification is superior to offensive ark against demons.
It's the same magic at core which breaks down demonic particles, only the end result is different.

Ludoshel's beam one is also far longer lmao.
1) I'm not surprised. Elizabeth isn't a Goddess at the moment.
2) For all we know Nakaba could've made it so Elizabeth was on the left and not on the right in the previous panel
3) Elizabeth having a thicker light beam could've made it for the length Ludoshel had over her. I have no idea how to do maths but this is a possibility.

Elizabeth's magic isn't above of the AA, you are wanking, nothing indicated that in the manga. Zero statement so far, it is only your headcanon here.
And the Archangels are the elites with each having a grace ( SD power ) on top of their top tier Goddess Power.
1) Indura feat.
2) Like I said grace doesn't matter here because they don't add PL. (except Mael)

Edge of purifying them? Lmao, she was sweating like hell, she was on the edge of collapsing herself, she used her Full Power into that purification technique and even that, couldn't do anything on her own.
The Archangels helped her and then, they purified them together, after that, she collapsed and go back to sleep again. ( two times in the flashback lmao )
She was being slowly pushed back against Phase 2, whilst she made Phase 2 desperate against her.

Both sides were struggling here it wasn't one-sided but a close engagement

Hence why light from the AA's, which didn't do diddly squat before is suddenly effective now, because Elizabeth was on the edge of purifying them, or if she wasn't on the edge, then she wasn't far off and the light the AA gave (which was nothing against Indura individually before) tipped the scales into her favour.
 

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Sariel & Tarmiel -88000 to 90000

Ludo-90000 to 100000 (not more than that)

Still they get crushed by AM Meliodas
Ludo should be at least 90K, he should be far above Sariel and Tarmiel.

Sariel and Tarmiel are 88K or 88500. Estarossa is equal to them.

We know that a small gap is enough to solo in NNT.
 

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We know that a small gap is enough to solo in NNT.
You keep saying this yet apparently Elizabeth at 60k can make 2 100k+ demons desperate.

???

You keep contradicting your own argument when it comes to PL's for one character and another.
 

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100k Elizabeth?lel
That would mean her magic is in the 90k range which I find very hard to believe.
Why? Seriously, just look at her feat so far.

Contained two indura which the archangels could not even scratch. And with additional help from 2 archangels she purified them.
She purified melascula. As a weak human with maimed powers.
And also as a weak human with maimed powers was able to get rid of estarosa's hellblaza dog.
And not quite a feat but worth noting, fought alongside meliodas against the supreme goddess and demon king.

Elizabeth is by no means a warrior as far as we know, at least in this life she has not developed any such skills, but she has shown substantial power at least. Elizabeth as a princess was rather pathetic of course but current elizabeth isn't merely a princess. She is the daughter of the supreme goddess that has lived 100 lives. While not a warrior the amount of power she has is basically monstrous...
 

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I really don't know how I can explain it simpler than I already have.

Ludoshel magic - can't scratch Indura
Elizabeth magic - makes two Indura desperate

Fandom: Yeah, Elizabeth magic is definitely inferior to Ludoshel, there's nothing in this manga that suggests otherwise

?

How do you come to this conclusion. The entire engagement between herself and Indura suggested that her magic is superior to her.
Nakaba made it so her release of magic was more powerful/amazing then Ludoshel's.
He made it pretty clear



Pacifism doesn't reduce PL.
Hype doesn't reduce PL.

So this is irrelevant.



So what, we only believe a character is truly powerful or special when we get a number (PL) on them? Because if that's the case you better hold the same opinion about Elizabeth here towards every top tier demon besides Mel and Esta.

It's almost as if this fandom is terrified of making assumptions about a character's PL unless Nakaba spoon-feeds it to them.
He doesn't make moments like the Indura, where Elizabeth did better than the AA to turn around and go ''yeah elizabeth is inferior lol'.



Yes, purification targeted the darkness, so what's your point here?
I already know you're going to pull the ''purification > offensive ark'' argument, but like I've said before, this is a claim that has no evidence behind it, so it's irrelevant and invalid.

Nowhere is it mentioned or suggested that purification is superior to offensive ark against demons.
It's the same magic at core which breaks down demonic particles, only the end result is different.



1) I'm not surprised. Elizabeth isn't a Goddess at the moment.
2) For all we know Nakaba could've made it so Elizabeth was on the left and not on the right in the previous panel
3) Elizabeth having a thicker light beam could've made it for the length Ludoshel had over her. I have no idea how to do maths but this is a possibility.



1) Indura feat.
2) Like I said grace doesn't matter here because they don't add PL. (except Mael)



She was being slowly pushed back against Phase 2, whilst she made Phase 2 desperate against her.

Both sides were struggling here it wasn't one-sided but a close engagement

Hence why light from the AA's, which didn't do diddly squat before is suddenly effective now, because Elizabeth was on the edge of purifying them, or if she wasn't on the edge, then she wasn't far off and the light the AA gave (which was nothing against Indura individually before) tipped the scales into her favour.
Ludo didn't go all out, she goes all out. Nice at twisting thing around.
Ludo didn't try to purify them, just the two others AA did with Elizabeth lmao.

She is inferior, King noted nothing on her magic at first sight, but toward Ludoshel, he got surprised as hell lmao.

Naw, nothing is clear, it is only your headcanon, you have zero numbers to state her PLs, zero hype too.
You are basically wanking her at the core.

But, she has zero hype on part with the AA lmao.

Yes, she is, She said that herself to Elaine and Merlin pointed out that her original power is back. You can't accept this reality because it can't satisfy your wank toward the level that you want her to go.

Indura feat? Which feat, you mean the one that Tarmiel stated that it was nothing above the ordinary? Lol.
Yes, the grace act like magic, Sunshine isn't an exception since all their origin is the same, the SD.
Like I said, Sunshine only fluctuate over time, unlike the others graces.

Nope, she was on the edge on collapsing, she was sweating as hell. Nice try at twisting the fact again.
She was out when she finished, literally directly.
When they helped her that she won, because thanks to their powers, she didn't do anything on her own.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
You keep saying this yet apparently Elizabeth at 60k can make 2 100k+ demons desperate.

???

You keep contradicting your own argument when it comes to PL's for one character and another.
Lmao, the Indura is at best 95K. Because a huge gap will totally kill Ludoshel with a single hit, they are beast, they don't know how to hold back.

You are the one who is wanking her, Elizabeth can't have a magic power near 60K.
That shit doesn't exist in the manga so far until now.
She used purification, a hax move to target their darkness with Ark, and we know how weak the Demons are toward Ark and despite that, they managed to push her at the door of death. ( as noted Monspiet and Derrierie, she risked her life, she was out of league here ).
 

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Why? Seriously, just look at her feat so far.

Contained two indura which the archangels could not even scratch. And with additional help from 2 archangels she purified them.
Contained?
They got into a brief power struggle in which they swiftly overpowered her(while she was on her own).Yes,that proves that her Holy magic is more potent than the Archangels,but her overall powerlevel is not above their's.Tarmiel makes that clear.
She purified melascula. As a weak human with maimed powers.
And also as a weak human with maimed powers was able to get rid of estarosa's hellblaza dog.
She did not perform those feats with maimed powers.She had already awakened and it's pretty obvious that she got a chunk of her powers back.
As for the feats themselves,overpowering Estarossa's magic is not impressive.The Merascylla one is reasonable but does not prove 100k Elizabeth at all.

And not quite a feat but worth noting, fought alongside meliodas against the supreme goddess and demon king.
Yeah,not a positive feat in her favour at all.
 
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Eiyuu Yami

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Tarmiel makes that clear.
He said "ofc she is getting pressured... those monsters were able to completely overwhelm we, ..."

Two ways to interpret that
  • "Ofc she is getting pressured given that we were completely overwhelmed"
Implies that they are near her level but she is stronger than them...

  • "Ofc she alone is getting pressured given that we as a team were overwhelmed"
Implies that she is individually stronger than them...

Note that i am using a fan translation... Maybe the official translation is more clear.


Fact is they as a 3 man team performed WAY worse than she alone.

Anyway, i can totally see Eli to have a 100k+ PL but i can also see her having a low overall PL given that her "force" and "spirit" might be not that high.

Her "magic" is top class nonetheless.
 
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Mythoclast

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He said "ofc she is getting pressured... those monsters were able to completely overwhelm we, ..."

Two ways to interpret that
  • "Ofc she is getting pressured given that we were completely overwhelmed"
Implies that they are near her level but she is stronger than them...

  • "Ofc she alone is getting pressured given that we as a team were overwhelmed"
Implies that she is individually stronger than them...

Note that i am using a fan translation... Maybe the official translation is more clear.
Well from what I understand from his implications is that if the Archangels can get overpowered from the Induras,then it's a given that she'd also get overpowered by them.So that would mean they are> her.
 

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Elizabeth to me is 30-40K. I can’t see her on Zeldris or Estarossa’s level because they have devoted their lives to becoming strong, and evolution exists in Taizai. That’s how the other races got weaker over time, because they didn’t focus on fighting, Elizabeth should be prone to the same rules. But I’d put her at lower tier commandment level from her current feats. But magic alone is not enough to make someone 60K level. Even Chandler’s mage form had incredible durability
 

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This topic really doesn't interest me anymore... I don't have it in me to post walls of text to try proving my point. I could say we'll see soon anyway since the battle against Estarossa will begin but I said this before and all the time she was a pure support type.

The masters have hype because they are Mel and Zel's masters, Zeldris praised their strength by comparing them to the other Commandments and they have feats, very good ones, there is nothing ambiguous about this: they are powerful. No one here will be able to convince me that Elizabeth is at such a level, there is no way I can believe that with she getting knocked out by a single punch of Derrierie, doing always healing related stuff in team battles, Chandler(who can read PLs) sending a Familiar to kill her and the fact that no one actually seem to consider her as a powerful threat etc. It is undeniable however that her Ark she used to attack Estarossa did nothing to him. Even if you believe she is not at full power, two Archangels(confirmed not being at full power) used powerful Ark techniques together and it did nothing to the Demon. If she failed like this, her current PL can't be that high.

To me she is between 16K-30K and I don't see her ending up stronger than any of the Sins in the end. Am I wrong? Maybe but I will keep believing this for now. I wish Hawk would just read her PL.
 
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sobreno

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Elizabeth to me is 30-40K. I can’t see her on Zeldris or Estarossa’s level because they have devoted their lives to becoming strong, and evolution exists in Taizai. That’s how the other races got weaker over time, because they didn’t focus on fighting, Elizabeth should be prone to the same rules. But I’d put her at lower tier commandment level from her current feats. But magic alone is not enough to make someone 60K level. Even Chandler’s mage form had incredible durability
Yeah, pretty much, she has no hype at all to put her at 50K.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Contained?
They got into a brief power struggle in which they swiftly overpowered her(while she was on her own).Yes,that proves that her magic Holy magic is more potent than the Archangels,but her overall powerlevel is not above their's.Tarmiel makes that clear.

She did not perform those feats with maimed powers.She had already awakened and it's pretty obvious that she got a chunk of her powers back.
As for the feats themselves,overpowering Estarossa's magic is not impressive.The Merascylla one is reasonable but does not prove 100k Elizabeth at all.


Yeah,not a positive feat in her favour at all.
They can't comprehend that simple thing.
 

OtakuFreak

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Elizabeth to me is 30-40K
To me she is between 16K-30K
Then explain how Elizabeth can accomplish these feats, if she had 30k:

She melted Derriere's hand pretty easily and she didn't even know what she is doing.

30K doesn't let you bruise a 142k demon, even if he lets you.

Making Phase 2 Indura desperate.

Purifying Melascula's miasma easily.

I could go on all day, but you get the idea. 30K doesn't merit all the feats she has done.
 

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Then explain how Elizabeth can accomplish these feats, if she had 30k:

She melted Derriere's hand pretty easily and she didn't even know what she is doing.

30K doesn't let you bruise a 142k demon, even if he lets you.

Making Phase 2 Indura desperate.

Purifying Melascula's miasma easily.

I could go on all day, but you get the idea. 30K doesn't merit all the feats she has done.
Even Zeldris with the Demon King’s magic has a magic rating of 10K. You don’t need to have exact magic on the level of someone you beat. 30K is a lot for magic alone.

Also considering the fact that many suggest that the AA held back, the indura feat kinda loses value to me.

Plus Gowther had to shut off Melasucla’s nerves for Elizabeth to attack. If she had her nerves odds are she would’ve resisted
 
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