Discussion Estimating Characters PL

[OtakuFreak]

That she isn't a Archangel and wasn't forced to " eat " a grace unlike the brothers with their commandments.

We know that she isn't a fighter and a princess and doesn't belong to any military squad, unlike the Demons brothers.

0 backstory on Elizabeth

Lol what? She never saved them, not even once.

Indura?
Agreeing to go with Estarossa and if she didn't he would've killed them all lol?

 

[sobreno]

0 backstory on Elizabeth



Indura?
Agreeing to go with Estarossa and if she didn't he would've killed them all lol?

Still doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a fighter/fighting type of backstory lol.

She never saved them against the Indura, she saved Monpiet and Derrierie at the risk of her own life.
The Archangels weren't in danger since Ludoshel didn't go all out as he stated himself.

I agree with the Estarossa thing but it doesn't change the fact that she is more damsel in distress than them.
You can't deny it if we take all the manga as a whole.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

But the current chapter has received null discussion. How else do I occupy my time? And arguing with Sobreno is one of the ways to keep myself entertained



0 backstory on Elizabeth means this comment is an opinion and not fact (yet).



Because Meliodas was a CHILD LOL?

And Estarossa was always weak, unlike Elizabeth who has shown her own independent power.



But the AA's were saved by Elizabeth on more than one occassion.
But are they damsels to you? No lol ofc not because it's not Elizabeth.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 3, 2018 ---

Mhm.

Zeldris was more off-guard yet Ludoshel's feat is more universally accepted which makes no sense.



mhm







But so did Zeldris against Ludoshel with that logic, because he was ''wide open'' and off-guard.
But I don't see you arguing that Zeldris ''let'' Ludoshel hit him and therefore his feat is null and void?



I'll keep it civil or close it down if it doesn't go anywhere <3



Define ''several reasons''.

I'm sad because the spoiler discussion is only 8 pages long rather than the usual 65 by now, so I need some discussion (literally anything)

1. Elizabeth is very inconsistent with her feats. One day she’s purifying indura and then the next she’s trapped in a regular ark prison
2. It’s a very common shonen trope for the OP main protagonist to get wacked by someone significantly weaker
3. Mel has taken much greater damage and was still standing. For example Holy Sword Escanor wasn’t able to drop him immediately, yet her slap dropped him with no effort.
4. Even when Goddess Elizabeth flaunted her magic the only thing that it really did was blind Ludoshel and it didn’t push him away.
5. Elizabeth was worried that Ludoshel’s magic could override her purification, which means that his outputs must be somewhere near hers if we’re just going to assume that raw power had everything to do with purification
6. Estarossa effortlessly broke out of the ark. Regardless if you think it tried to hurt him, he still broke out
7. Elizabeth probably did not intend to slap Mel with full force unless she’s a fan of domestic abuse. So the fact that she floored him without full force while Escanor couldn’t is a huge red flag

As for the spoilers, yeah it’s going pretty slow

 

[OtakuFreak]

She never saved against the Indura, she saved Monpiet and Derrierie at the risk of her own life.
The Archangels weren't in danger since Ludoshel didn't go all out as he stated himself.

Phase 1 Indura completely overwhelmed all of the AA lol
It was too late for Sar/Tar because they were already put down by Monspiet and if it wasn't for Elizabeth's spell pushing them away, they wouldn't have been able to regenerate back to full health and could've been killed.

And do you believe Ludoshel can take on two Phase 2 Induras? Flash just looks like it gives speed at the moment, which means nothing if he can't hurt Indura at Phase 1(as shown by his serious ark).

Case is all of the AA except Mael with sunshine even with graces are completely overwhelmed by Indura, and if it wasn't for Elizabeth's intervention they would've suffered serious injury or even death. There's a reason why Ludoshel, who despises Elizabeth wanted her assistance, which was even more emphasised of how calm he was when she was present compared to how distressed he was when she wasn't.

It's safe to say Elizabeth's intervention eliminated the risk of the AA's dying, so yes, she did save them.

And if she didn't agree to go with Estarossa and decided to put up with a resistance. the AA could've been killed because they couldn't stop 3C-Estarossa.

So yes, she did save them twice.

You can't deny it if we take all the manga as a whole.

And here's your problem.
Elizabeth Liones + Human Elizabeth without memories is a damsel in distress because the curse makes her weak and vulnerable, hence why Meliodas protects her.

But Goddess Elizabeth(the real Elizabeth) is not a damsel in distress, because she can actually defend herself and fight back if she wants to. And has does feats that the AA can't achieve.

1. Elizabeth is very inconsistent with her feats. One day she’s purifying indura and then the next she’s trapped in a regular ark prison

Agreed.

3. Mel has taken much greater damage and was still standing. For example Holy Sword Escanor wasn’t able to drop him immediately, yet her slap dropped him with no effort.

To be fair it wasn't a battle situation, so him being ''dropped'' is only because he didn't expect Elizabeth to 100% go for a slap that encompassed ark.
And I imagine, using ark (magic) will function differently against a physical attack that Escanor used.

4. Even when Goddess Elizabeth flaunted her magic the only thing that it really did was blind Ludoshel and it didn’t push him away.

IIRC - It illuminated the entire battlefield, pushed away Ludoshel/Indura and made them pay attention.
I mean, her flaunting her magic like that is something the AA have yet to do, or it's probably apart of the attack animation.

5. Elizabeth was worried that Ludoshel’s magic could override her purification, which means that his outputs must be somewhere near hers if we’re just going to assume that raw power had everything to do with purification

She was worried that he was going to disrupt her purification by trying to kill the Indura, which was something she didn't want.
Plus, how can we say that Ludoshel's output is at a similar level as Elizabeth's when she was able to make two phase 2 Indura's desperate whilst he couldn't scratch 1 phase 1 Indura?

Any worry about Ludoshel's magic would be because Elizabeth was holding the Indura at the threshold of being defeated (purified). Placing them at a vulnerable position would mean Ludoshel's magic, that didn't work before, would suddenly be effective now and could have the potential to kill or harm the Indura. This is probably the case because he wanted Elizabeth's help in killing them. Plus, Sariel/Tarmiel's little boost of light (ark) was suddenly effective now against Indura in conjunction with Elizabeth's light because she was once again the majority of the force holding them at the threshold of defeat, so she just needed a little push to finish them off, which Ludoshel was ready to capitalise on.

TBH I'm of the opinion that Elizabeth could've medium-high difficulty purified a Phase 2 Indura if it was a 1v1, and not a 1v2 - like how Meliodas pretty much wipes the Kings but would be defeated in a 1v2.

6. Estarossa effortlessly broke out of the ark. Regardless if you think it tried to hurt him, he still broke out

True, but he didn't do it effortlessly because:

-He had to use his darkness on his physical body, THEN move in such a way to break out of the ark bubble after he was pushed a fair distance away. So he had to use both his strength and magic together with some effort in order to be able to break out of the ark bubble, which to be honest, is one of Elizabeth's weaker abilities, as of current standings.

Side note, you call Elizabeth's biblical whale silly. Do you think it's a weak ability? It seems powerful considering you can use it for offensive, defensive and mobility purposes.And it's pretty huge/pretty too xd

7. Elizabeth probably did not intend to slap Mel with full force unless she’s a fan of domestic abuse. So the fact that she floored him without full force while Escanor couldn’t is a huge red flag

I wouldn't call it domestic abuse and it's not like Meliodas was an Angel in that situation too, since he just told her he doesn't love her anymore, which resulted in her retaliation of slapping him (with some effort too I imagine, since the intention is there to hurt him).

The difference between the Escanor/Elizabeth situation is:

-One is a battle and the other is not. So Meliodas isn't in the mental state of fighting someone (to the death I imagine)
-One he is 100% on guard and fighting whilst the other he is just talking.
-He actually told Elizabeth to slap him, because was probably not expecting her to do it, or if she did, not with ark. So he wasn't 100% on guard and ready to take it (not 100% off-guard since he was directly looking at her).

You can't really compare the situations considering one is a death battle and the other is an argument ending with a slap. If it was a death battle between Elizabeth and Meliodas (lol nakaba) and it ended with her doing with what she did, it would be huge, but it's not, so it's just a small feat, unlike what Escanor did which is what I would consider a huge battle feat.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Phase 1 Indura completely overwhelmed all of the AA lol
It was too late for Sar/Tar because they were already put down by Monspiet and if it wasn't for Elizabeth's spell pushing them away, they wouldn't have been able to regenerate back to full health and could've been killed.

And do you believe Ludoshel can take on two Phase 2 Induras? Flash just looks like it gives speed at the moment, which means nothing if he can't hurt Indura at Phase 1(as shown by his serious ark).

Case is all of the AA except Mael with sunshine even with graces are completely overwhelmed by Indura, and if it wasn't for Elizabeth's intervention they would've suffered serious injury or even death. There's a reason why Ludoshel, who despises Elizabeth wanted her assistance, which was even more emphasised of how calm he was when she was present compared to how distressed he was when she wasn't.

It's safe to say Elizabeth's intervention eliminated the risk of the AA's dying, so yes, she did save them.

And if she didn't agree to go with Estarossa and decided to put up with a resistance. the AA could've been killed because they couldn't stop 3C-Estarossa.

So yes, she did save them twice.



And here's your problem.
Elizabeth Liones + Human Elizabeth without memories is a damsel in distress because the curse makes her weak and vulnerable, hence why Meliodas protects her.

But Goddess Elizabeth(the real Elizabeth) is not a damsel in distress, because she can actually defend herself and fight back if she wants to. And has does feats that the AA can't achieve.



Agreed.



To be fair it wasn't a battle situation, so him being ''dropped'' is only because he didn't expect Elizabeth to 100% go for a slap that encompassed ark.
And I imagine, using ark (magic) will function differently against a physical attack that Escanor used.



IIRC - It illuminated the entire battlefield, pushed away Ludoshel/Indura and made them pay attention.
I mean, her flaunting her magic like that is something the AA have yet to do, or it's probably apart of the attack animation.



She was worried that he was going to disrupt her purification by trying to kill the Indura, which was something she didn't want.
Plus, how can we say that Ludoshel's output is at a similar level as Elizabeth's when she was able to make two phase 2 Indura's desperate whilst he couldn't scratch 1 phase 1 Indura?

Any worry about Ludoshel's magic would be because Elizabeth was holding the Indura at the threshold of being defeated (purified). Placing them at a vulnerable position would mean Ludoshel's magic, that didn't work before, would suddenly be effective now and could have the potential to kill or harm the Indura. This is probably the case because he wanted Elizabeth's help in killing them. Plus, Sariel/Tarmiel's little boost of light (ark) was suddenly effective now against Indura in conjunction with Elizabeth's light because she was once again the majority of the force holding them at the threshold of defeat, so she just needed a little push to finish them off, which Ludoshel was ready to capitalise on.

TBH I'm of the opinion that Elizabeth could've medium-high difficulty purified a Phase 2 Indura if it was a 1v1, and not a 1v2 - like how Meliodas pretty much wipes the Kings but would be defeated in a 1v2.



True, but he didn't do it effortlessly because:

-He had to use his darkness on his physical body, THEN move in such a way to break out of the ark bubble after he was pushed a fair distance away. So he had to use both his strength and magic together with some effort in order to be able to break out of the ark bubble, which to be honest, is one of Elizabeth's weaker abilities, as of current standings.

Side note, you call Elizabeth's biblical whale silly. Do you think it's a weak ability? It seems powerful considering you can use it for offensive, defensive and mobility purposes.And it's pretty huge/pretty too xd



I wouldn't call it domestic abuse and it's not like Meliodas was an Angel in that situation too, since he just told her he doesn't love her anymore, which resulted in her retaliation of slapping him (with some effort too I imagine, since the intention is there to hurt him).

The difference between the Escanor/Elizabeth situation is:

-One is a battle and the other is not. So Meliodas isn't in the mental state of fighting someone (to the death I imagine)
-One he is 100% on guard and fighting whilst the other he is just talking.
-He actually told Elizabeth to slap him, because was probably not expecting her to do it, or if she did, not with ark. So he wasn't 100% on guard and ready to take it (not 100% off-guard since he was directly looking at her).

You can't really compare the situations considering one is a death battle and the other is an argument ending with a slap. If it was a death battle between Elizabeth and Meliodas (lol nakaba) and it ended with her doing with what she did, it would be huge, but it's not, so it's just a small feat, unlike what Escanor did which is what I would consider a huge battle feat.

1. I don't recall it ever pushing Ludoshel away. His body might've turned sideways but he wasn't pushed back.

2. That's a contradiction in my opinion. According to you Ludoshel's magic could do nothing against the indura. However, now we see them powering up and even overhwhelimg Elizabeth's magic. Therefore, she couldn't have been worried about him killing them if she knew her magic was stronger. Therefore she must've been worried that his magic would've disrupted hers.

3. I still believe Estarossa had 0 worries about breaking out. Even when he was trapped in it the first thought of his was to say "don't interrupt me." He still broke out without a sweat, i don't thinking him flexing makes that much of a difference.

4. Yeah the last part I can agree with because Mel did get pretty cocky and didn't expect Elizabeth to do it, so it'd make sense that he'd get floored easier. That's the whole thing that I'm stressing about Elizabeth, that the slap was mainly a factor thing as compared to a true feat.

 

[Bøjan]

1. I don't recall it ever pushing Ludoshel away. His body might've turned sideways but he wasn't pushed back.

Spoiler

This is not turning sideways

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Spoiler

This is not turning sideways

On the right panel he just looks like he's tilted sideways. The left panel just has him covering his face. Plus right after she launches the attack Ludoshel is still in the exact same place.

 

[OtakuFreak]

1. I don't recall it ever pushing Ludoshel away. His body might've turned sideways but he wasn't pushed back.

Refer to the comment above + Indura were pushed back too, so why wasn't Ludoshel according to you?

How do you place a picture like that inside a spoiler tag? I can never work it out... (@Bøjan help)

2. That's a contradiction in my opinion. According to you Ludoshel's magic could do nothing against the indura. However, now we see them powering up and even overhwhelimg Elizabeth's magic. Therefore, she couldn't have been worried about him killing them if she knew her magic was stronger. Therefore she must've been worried that his magic would've disrupted hers.

I'm stating that because Elizabeth's magic placed Indura on the threshold of defeat and in a vulnerable position, it thus gives the opportunity for Ludoshel, who's magic previously had little effect, to suddenly have an effect now which in turn can harm or kill the Indura, hence Elizabeth's demand for him to stay out of the situation.

I may have explained it wrong, but since Indura were on the threshold of being defeated, all that was needed was a little push on Elizabeth's end in order to purify them (as seen by the AA's light). If Ludoshel decided to kill instead of purify, he could've done so, hence Elizabeth's worry.

And it may just be me, but the Indura moment kind of proves that Elizabeth's ark is superior to that of the AA, since she had significant higher levels of effectiveness in comparison to Ludoshel (the AA with the strongest ark imo) with the same opponnent, and even then, the AA's asked for her help, proving that the opponent was completely beyond them.

3. I still believe Estarossa had 0 worries about breaking out. Even when he was trapped in it the first thought of his was to say "don't interrupt me." He still broke out without a sweat, i don't thinking him flexing makes that much of a difference.

You said Estarossa did it effortlessly, I just argued saying it was something that require small/some effort on Estarossa's part to break out of.
Honestly, the moment is really simple:

-Elizabeth uses basic ark without intention to hurt/kill but to displace Estarossa
-Estarossa breaks out of it easily cementing that basic Elizabeth ark without the intention to hurt is weak and easy to counter.

That's just how I see it tbh

4. Yeah the last part I can agree with because Mel did get pretty cocky and didn't expect Elizabeth to do it, so it'd make sense that he'd get floored easier. That's the whole thing that I'm stressing about Elizabeth, that the slap was mainly a factor thing as compared to a true feat.

It may just be me but I still see it as a small feat of Elizabeth being able to damage a superior demon like Meliodas. It cements the idea that her ark is powerful enough to hurt him, but only because several conditions that allowed so, such as:

A) It being an argument and not a battle means Elizabeth's slap can connect and bypass many obstacles such as:
-Full Counter
-Meliodas actually dodging or blocking it
-Meliodas desire to not hurt her (I imagine he could've stopped her arm if it happened in a battle, but it would hurt her human body)

She has the power to hurt him but in a real death battle it would never happen unless Nakaba reveals Elizabeth to be some secret Goddess warrior who was trained by her mother or something, or she gets lucky/smart.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Refer to the comment above + Indura were pushed back too, so why wasn't Ludoshel according to you?

How do you place a picture like that inside a spoiler tag? I can never work it out... (@Bøjan help)



I'm stating that because Elizabeth's magic placed Indura on the threshold of defeat and in a vulnerable position, it thus gives the opportunity for Ludoshel, who's magic previously had little effect, to suddenly have an effect now which in turn can harm or kill the Indura, hence Elizabeth's demand for him to stay out of the situation.

I may have explained it wrong, but since Indura were on the threshold of being defeated, all that was needed was a little push on Elizabeth's end in order to purify them (as seen by the AA's light). If Ludoshel decided to kill instead of purify, he could've done so, hence Elizabeth's worry.

And it may just be me, but the Indura moment kind of proves that Elizabeth's ark is superior to that of the AA, since she had significant higher levels of effectiveness in comparison to Ludoshel (the AA with the strongest ark imo) with the same opponnent, and even then, the AA's asked for her help, proving that the opponent was completely beyond them.



You said Estarossa did it effortlessly, I just argued saying it was something that require small/some effort on Estarossa's part to break out of.
Honestly, the moment is really simple:

-Elizabeth uses basic ark without intention to hurt/kill but to displace Estarossa
-Estarossa breaks out of it easily cementing that basic Elizabeth ark without the intention to hurt is weak and easy to counter.

That's just how I see it tbh



It may just be me but I still see it as a small feat of Elizabeth being able to damage a superior demon like Meliodas. It cements the idea that her ark is powerful enough to hurt him, but only because several conditions that allowed so, such as:

A) It being an argument and not a battle means Elizabeth's slap can connect and bypass many obstacles such as:
-Full Counter
-Meliodas actually dodging or blocking it
-Meliodas desire to not hurt her (I imagine he could've stopped her arm if it happened in a battle, but it would hurt her human body)

She has the power to hurt him but in a real death battle it would never happen unless Nakaba reveals Elizabeth to be some secret Goddess warrior who was trained by her mother or something, or she gets lucky/smart.

1. Well yeah the indura were moved because the attack was aimed at them. I meant that Elizabeth just powering up at first didn't throw ludoshel from his position.

2. I don't recall her magic placing them into a area of defeat when they were shown powering up and even pushing her back. It took two AA and Elizabeth to finish the job, so I wouldn't say they were on the verge of collapsing.

3. That's probably just a nitpick of words. By effortlessly I mean he basically just flexed his power and busted out pretty easily. I wouldn't say that it required no use of energy, but he probably could've done it for hours in my opinion if she just kept trying to put him into arcs.

 

[Bøjan]

How do you place a picture like that inside a spoiler tag? I can never work it out... (@Bøjan help)

Spoiler

Drag and drop the picture you like, it has to be between the spoiler tags just like in my picture here, and it'll work 100%.

 

[OtakuFreak]

1. Well yeah the indura were moved because the attack was aimed at them. I meant that Elizabeth just powering up at first didn't throw ludoshel from his position.

It looks like he moved though.

2. I don't recall her magic placing them into a area of defeat when they were shown powering up and even pushing her back. It took two AA and Elizabeth to finish the job, so I wouldn't say they were on the verge of collapsing.

Elizabeth was about to be pushed back and the Indura were desperate in resisting her and with a little push from the AA's lead Elizabeth to be able to purify them.

Ludoshel's ark, which is superior to Sariel or Tarmiel's was ineffective against Phase 1 Indura, so why is it that the AA's light now works against Phase 2 Indura? Because Elizabeth placed them at the threshold of being purified and only needed a tiny push/power boost in order to be able to completely purify them.

3. That's probably just a nitpick of words. By effortlessly I mean he basically just flexed his power and busted out pretty easily. I wouldn't say that it required no use of energy, but he probably could've done it for hours in my opinion if she just kept trying to put him into arcs.

Agreed. Elizabeth used a weak spell she could probably conjure hundred's of times and Estarossa could break out of it hundred's of times too quite easily. It's quite a simple moment.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 3, 2018 ---

Spoiler

Drag and drop the picture you like, it has to be between the spoiler tags just like in my picture here, and it'll work 100%.

Spoiler: Got it

This will be greatly useful thanks <3

 

[Bøjan]

Spoiler: Got it

This will be greatly useful thanks <3

Oh no... what have i done now you will spam pics of Eli when you're debating with someone about her power/feats. (jk)

PS: You're welcome

 

[MrSchmitty7]

It looks like he moved though.



Elizabeth was about to be pushed back and the Indura were desperate in resisting her and with a little push from the AA's lead Elizabeth to be able to purify them.

Ludoshel's ark, which is superior to Sariel or Tarmiel's was ineffective against Phase 1 Indura, so why is it that the AA's light now works against Phase 2 Indura? Because Elizabeth placed them at the threshold of being purified and only needed a tiny push/power boost in order to be able to completely purify them.



Agreed. Elizabeth used a weak spell she could probably conjure hundred's of times and Estarossa could break out of it hundred's of times too quite easily. It's quite a simple moment.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 3, 2018 ---

Spoiler: Got it

This will be greatly useful thanks <3

I wouldn’t call it a little push as it did take both of them to boost Elizabeth who was already at her limit. From my understanding the desperation was what caused their power up, not that they became desperate when they started to power up

Also I wouldn’t call her ark weak since the AA were surprised that Estarossa broke out of it. Plus if she was trying to get rid of him I don’t see why she’d use a weak attack like that in a fighting situation

 

[OtakuFreak]

Oh no... what have i done now you will spam pics of Eli when you're debating with someone about her power/feats. (jk)

All for the purpose of cementing Goddess Elizabeth as Supreme Goddess tier (jk)

I wouldn’t call it a little push as it did take both of them to boost Elizabeth who was already at her limit. From my understanding the desperation was what caused their power up, not that they became desperate when they started to power up

If the Indura are desperate and the AA's power boost allowed Elizabeth to purify them, then it cements the idea that she wasn't far off fully purifying them herself, she just needed a little-moderate power boost of light in order to do it. After all, the AA's ark individually did nothing to Phase 1 Indura, so to let Elizabeth purify them at Phase 2 gives the indication that the Indura were near or right on the threshold of being purified, hence how their ark worked at that moment and not before Elizabeth's intervention into making them desperate.

Also I wouldn’t call her ark weak since the AA were surprised that Estarossa broke out of it. Plus if she was trying to get rid of him I don’t see why she’d use a weak attack like that in a fighting situation

The AA's comment/praise is always going to be weird to me.

Elizabeth's ark bubble was very basic, it wasn't at the level of ''Let There Be Light'' or even at the level of what she used against Meliodas, yet they decide to praise that ''attack'' instead of the giant purification spell that illuminated the entire battlefield and made the enemy they couldn't deal with desperate and near the edge of being defeated? Really weird to me.

Also, I'm going to guess they praised the ark bubble she used because they didn't have a clear understanding of the context behind it. They didn't see her preach about protecting Meliodas and Derriere inside the black hound cloud and probably assumed it was a full-powered ark with the intent to kill.

Her intention was to get rid of him, not by killing him but to move him away, hence the whole ''let me throw him to the mountain side rather than explode the ark right here and now for damage''. Plus, she was inside a fog of darkness with him with Derriere face to face without anyone else on the outside being able to see/help them, so to be fair, her moving him seems to definitely be her intention, rather than to hurt. She was able to move him away and break the blackhound cloud around her and Derriere with a simple ark.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

All for the purpose of cementing Goddess Elizabeth as Supreme Goddess tier (jk)



If the Indura are desperate and the AA's power boost allowed Elizabeth to purify them, then it cements the idea that she wasn't far off fully purifying them herself, she just needed a little-moderate power boost of light in order to do it. After all, the AA's ark individually did nothing to Phase 1 Indura, so to let Elizabeth purify them at Phase 2 gives the indication that the Indura were near or right on the threshold of being purified, hence how their ark worked at that moment and not before Elizabeth's intervention into making them desperate.



The AA's comment/praise is always going to be weird to me.

Elizabeth's ark bubble was very basic, it wasn't at the level of ''Let There Be Light'' or even at the level of what she used against Meliodas, yet they decide to praise that ''attack'' instead of the giant purification spell that illuminated the entire battlefield and made the enemy they couldn't deal with desperate and near the edge of being defeated? Really weird to me.

Also, I'm going to guess they praised the ark bubble she used because they didn't have a clear understanding of the context behind it. They didn't see her preach about protecting Meliodas and Derriere inside the black hound cloud and probably assumed it was a full-powered ark with the intent to kill.

Her intention was to get rid of him, not by killing him but to move him away, hence the whole ''let me throw him to the mountain side rather than explode the ark right here and now for damage''. Plus, she was inside a fog of darkness with him with Derriere face to face without anyone else on the outside being able to see/help them, so to be fair, her moving him seems to definitely be her intention, rather than to hurt. She was able to move him away and break the blackhound cloud around her and Derriere with a simple ark.

I still don’t see how two AA pouring light into someone already at their peak counts as “a little push” they may not have strained themselves, but that’s because there’s two of them helping her to ease the task. It was a joint attack by three people.

As for Estarossa I don’t buy into that because it makes no sense for her to create an attack that he can break out of when she’s trying to save lives. Additionally, why would she try to hurt meliodas more than Estarossa when Estarossa is a legitimate threat? Regardless if she didn’t explode it, ark still damages the individual if they’re inside it and even if hers didn’t it’s never been said that exploding it increases durability of the attack. As for her getting rid of Estarossa’s hound, that’s easily explainable because he has a very low magic stat. I’m not sure what’s so confusing about their comment

 

[OtakuFreak]

I still don’t see how two AA pouring light into someone already at their peak counts as “a little push” they may not have strained themselves, but that’s because there’s two of them helping her to ease the task. It was a joint attack by three people.

It wasn't a ''joint'' attack because Sar/Tar never actually used the purification spell, but instead supplied their light to Elizabeth's ark as a power boost.
Plus, Elizabeth was the large majority of the ''attack'', they only gave little support.

As for Estarossa I don’t buy into that because it makes no sense for her to create an attack that he can break out of when she’s trying to save lives.

But she succeeded in protecting Derriere in that distance. He only broke out of it when he was a fair distance away, and whilst Elizabeth broke the barrier around them. So to be fair, she succeeded in what she was trying to achieve.

Additionally, why would she try to hurt meliodas more than Estarossa when Estarossa is a legitimate threat?

Because our pacifist has the intention to defend and protect Derriere, not hurt and kill Estarossa.
Plus, I imagine Elizabeth probably doesn't want to hurt or kill Esatrossa when she was with him as a sweet child. I mean, even when he was consumed by the commandments and about to consume her, she's more concerned in helping him than defending herself. So it's clear she has 0 intention of killing or significantly hurting him, but rather to save him.

Elizabeth knew there was no point in reasoning with a Meliodas without emotions, so she decided to forge own path, hence the slap.

Regardless if she didn’t explode it, ark still damages the individual if they’re inside it and even if hers didn’t it’s never been said that exploding it increases durability of the attack

Where did you get the conclusion that ark damages the individual regardless of intention?
It's pretty obvious by now that if Elizabeth's ark didn't do damage it's because she didn't want it to.

As for her getting rid of Estarossa’s hound, that’s easily explainable because he has a very low magic stat. I’m not sure what’s so confusing about their comment

Because they're praising a non-lethal ark that has no aggression behind it for doing something that it didn't do? ''Oh wow Estarossa well done for escaping Lady Elizabeth's ark that was both basic and not trying to hurt you, truly amazing''.

Why didn't they praise Elizabeth's power when she held back the Indura who completely overwhelmed all of the AA? It's her most powerful attack, so why not praise that ability, which is powerful in it's own right rather than a basic ark bubble any Goddess can make? Their comment is too weird imo

 

[sobreno]

Phase 1 Indura completely overwhelmed all of the AA lol
It was too late for Sar/Tar because they were already put down by Monspiet and if it wasn't for Elizabeth's spell pushing them away, they wouldn't have been able to regenerate back to full health and could've been killed.

And do you believe Ludoshel can take on two Phase 2 Induras? Flash just looks like it gives speed at the moment, which means nothing if he can't hurt Indura at Phase 1(as shown by his serious ark).

Case is all of the AA except Mael with sunshine even with graces are completely overwhelmed by Indura, and if it wasn't for Elizabeth's intervention they would've suffered serious injury or even death. There's a reason why Ludoshel, who despises Elizabeth wanted her assistance, which was even more emphasised of how calm he was when she was present compared to how distressed he was when she wasn't.

It's safe to say Elizabeth's intervention eliminated the risk of the AA's dying, so yes, she did save them.

And if she didn't agree to go with Estarossa and decided to put up with a resistance. the AA could've been killed because they couldn't stop 3C-Estarossa.

So yes, she did save them twice.



And here's your problem.
Elizabeth Liones + Human Elizabeth without memories is a damsel in distress because the curse makes her weak and vulnerable, hence why Meliodas protects her.

But Goddess Elizabeth(the real Elizabeth) is not a damsel in distress, because she can actually defend herself and fight back if she wants to. And has does feats that the AA can't achieve.



Agreed.



To be fair it wasn't a battle situation, so him being ''dropped'' is only because he didn't expect Elizabeth to 100% go for a slap that encompassed ark.
And I imagine, using ark (magic) will function differently against a physical attack that Escanor used.



IIRC - It illuminated the entire battlefield, pushed away Ludoshel/Indura and made them pay attention.
I mean, her flaunting her magic like that is something the AA have yet to do, or it's probably apart of the attack animation.



She was worried that he was going to disrupt her purification by trying to kill the Indura, which was something she didn't want.
Plus, how can we say that Ludoshel's output is at a similar level as Elizabeth's when she was able to make two phase 2 Indura's desperate whilst he couldn't scratch 1 phase 1 Indura?

Any worry about Ludoshel's magic would be because Elizabeth was holding the Indura at the threshold of being defeated (purified). Placing them at a vulnerable position would mean Ludoshel's magic, that didn't work before, would suddenly be effective now and could have the potential to kill or harm the Indura. This is probably the case because he wanted Elizabeth's help in killing them. Plus, Sariel/Tarmiel's little boost of light (ark) was suddenly effective now against Indura in conjunction with Elizabeth's light because she was once again the majority of the force holding them at the threshold of defeat, so she just needed a little push to finish them off, which Ludoshel was ready to capitalise on.

TBH I'm of the opinion that Elizabeth could've medium-high difficulty purified a Phase 2 Indura if it was a 1v1, and not a 1v2 - like how Meliodas pretty much wipes the Kings but would be defeated in a 1v2.



True, but he didn't do it effortlessly because:

-He had to use his darkness on his physical body, THEN move in such a way to break out of the ark bubble after he was pushed a fair distance away. So he had to use both his strength and magic together with some effort in order to be able to break out of the ark bubble, which to be honest, is one of Elizabeth's weaker abilities, as of current standings.

Side note, you call Elizabeth's biblical whale silly. Do you think it's a weak ability? It seems powerful considering you can use it for offensive, defensive and mobility purposes.And it's pretty huge/pretty too xd



I wouldn't call it domestic abuse and it's not like Meliodas was an Angel in that situation too, since he just told her he doesn't love her anymore, which resulted in her retaliation of slapping him (with some effort too I imagine, since the intention is there to hurt him).

The difference between the Escanor/Elizabeth situation is:

-One is a battle and the other is not. So Meliodas isn't in the mental state of fighting someone (to the death I imagine)
-One he is 100% on guard and fighting whilst the other he is just talking.
-He actually told Elizabeth to slap him, because was probably not expecting her to do it, or if she did, not with ark. So he wasn't 100% on guard and ready to take it (not 100% off-guard since he was directly looking at her).

You can't really compare the situations considering one is a death battle and the other is an argument ending with a slap. If it was a death battle between Elizabeth and Meliodas (lol nakaba) and it ended with her doing with what she did, it would be huge, but it's not, so it's just a small feat, unlike what Escanor did which is what I would consider a huge battle feat.

Nope, not Ludoshel, he was still in the game, like I said, he wasn't giving his all.

No, the Indura didn't allow that the Archangels combine their power, if they did that, they would easily won.
He was calm when he said " how interesting " before she came in front of him lol.

No, she didn't save them, they wouldn't die since Ludoshel was there. I agree for Estarossa.

Lol what, feats that AA can't achieve? What feat? AA did casually what she did, their Ark is 10 biggers and they are better fighter, not to mention their graces, divine power above anything in the entire verse.

You are wanking again. She is still a damsel in distress, she was saved against Chandler, against Estarossa, and even now too.
She still need help like the princess she is. Try again.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

It wasn't a ''joint'' attack because Sar/Tar never actually used the purification spell, but instead supplied their light to Elizabeth's ark as a power boost.
Plus, Elizabeth was the large majority of the ''attack'', they only gave little support.



But she succeeded in protecting Derriere in that distance. He only broke out of it when he was a fair distance away, and whilst Elizabeth broke the barrier around them. So to be fair, she succeeded in what she was trying to achieve.



Because our pacifist has the intention to defend and protect Derriere, not hurt and kill Estarossa.
Plus, I imagine Elizabeth probably doesn't want to hurt or kill Esatrossa when she was with him as a sweet child. I mean, even when he was consumed by the commandments and about to consume her, she's more concerned in helping him than defending herself. So it's clear she has 0 intention of killing or significantly hurting him, but rather to save him.

Elizabeth knew there was no point in reasoning with a Meliodas without emotions, so she decided to forge own path, hence the slap.



Where did you get the conclusion that ark damages the individual regardless of intention?
It's pretty obvious by now that if Elizabeth's ark didn't do damage it's because she didn't want it to.



Because they're praising a non-lethal ark that has no aggression behind it for doing something that it didn't do? ''Oh wow Estarossa well done for escaping Lady Elizabeth's ark that was both basic and not trying to hurt you, truly amazing''.

Why didn't they praise Elizabeth's power when she held back the Indura who completely overwhelmed all of the AA? It's her most powerful attack, so why not praise that ability, which is powerful in it's own right rather than a basic ark bubble any Goddess can make? Their comment is too weird imo

They still supplied power, plus they are two AA it makes sense that they wouldn't have to strain themselves as much as her. They didn't have to do majority of the attack. It doesn't change the fact that it took two of them and Elizabeth

Also the protecting theory doesn't make sense. Surely Elizabeth didn't just expect to throw Estarossa and the problem would be solved. If she did then she's much dumber than she appears.

It also doesn't make sense for her to want to hurt Meliodas by that logic, but she did. Also, hurting him doesn't necessarily means she has to kill him.

It was also never said that the ark was non lethal. That's just your interpretation and the AA stated otherwise. However, you'll simply say "it doesn't make sense". The fact is though that the AA were surprised that Estarossa got out unharmed.

Also I didn't mean to imply that ark can't not do damage, I was just saying it doesn't have to explode to do damage

As for the praise, just because it wasn’t her strongest attack doesn’t mean that it wasn’t powerful. Estarossa praised Esxanor’s cruel sun even though it’s not his strongest

 

[OtakuFreak]

They still supplied power, plus they are two AA it makes sense that they wouldn't have to strain themselves as much as her. They didn't have to do majority of the attack. It doesn't change the fact that it took two of them and Elizabeth

True, it did take Elizabeth + Sariel & Tarmiel in order to fully purify the Indura, but I'm just stating that the large majority of the effort came from Elizabeth, and without her the AA would've been deleted by the Indura.

Also the protecting theory doesn't make sense. Surely Elizabeth didn't just expect to throw Estarossa and the problem would be solved. If she did then she's much dumber than she appears.

Like I said, her top priority was to protect Derriere and even herself, since Estarossa wanted them both, creating space by displacing Estarossa was the best thing she could've done in the situation.

And I imagine she didn't just expect throwing him would ''resolve'' the problem. Shes aware the AA were there with her, and she knows that they are powerful enough to deal with him easily.

''oh here let me throw estarossa away so he can't get me or Derriere and let the AA release their 3000 year old revenge plan on him. gg'' is what she was probably thinking.

It also doesn't make sense for her to want to hurt Meliodas by that logic, but she did. Also, hurting him doesn't necessarily means she has to kill him.

Meliodas she knows there is no reasoning with.
Estarossa is someone she has a past with, and has the potential to reason with him.

Plus, she only hurts people if she absolutely has to, as shown by when she had to defend herself from being choked to death.

It was also never said that the ark was non lethal. That's just your interpretation and the AA stated otherwise. However, you'll simply say "it doesn't make sense". The fact is though that the AA were surprised that Estarossa got out unharmed.

Why do you think it was lethal then? There's nothing about the ark she used that would suggest it should've done damage.

If you disagree, you're free to think that, but everything points to me being correct about it.

Elizabeth on multiple occasions has used ark that has offensively injured people:

-She used ark to melt Derriere's hand in a situation which required Elizabeth to hurt her opponent in order to save somebody else. Plus she had no memories, so it was probably a desperate reaction rather than anything planned.

-She used an ark blast to hurt Meliodas. The intention was there because Meliodas basically told her ''stfu i don't love you now obey me'' which would make anybody pissed and looking to hurt someone.

-She wanted to save Indura, hence the purification spell that made her collapse in the end since it was that powerful it took all her strength.

-She needed to save herself from Estarossa, so she ended up using spitful saint against Estarossa in order to defend herself.

But in this situation, she's telling Estarossa she isn't going to allow her to collect the commandments, indirectly stating she's going to defend and protect Derriere (as seen by her hand placement in the discussion) and ends up choosing an ark bubble that ends up moving him away, rather than exploding on the spot. If you want to disagree, it's even supported further by the fact that Nerobasta used the very same type of ark bubble to contain Derriere, but because she had the desire to hurt and kill her, she compressed the ark and was most likely going to explode it for further damage, unlike Elizabeth who never had no such will which was expressed in her actions by moving him away rather than compressing or making the ark explode.

Edit: even further, she exploded the ark bubble on Derriere's hand, proving my point further.

So what's established by looking at Elizabeth's previous situations of ark usage and the current context is that:

-She wanted to protect Derriere, and didn't show any intention to hurt Estarossa.
-She chose an ark that was inherently less offensive, if she wanted to hurt him, she could've done an ark blast or literally any other technique she's already used to hurt people.
-She 100% has the ability to hurt him if she wanted to, since her magic made much more superior opponents receive damage, or make them be pushed to a state of desperation.
-Even when she used an ark bubble, she never used it a manner that would've hurt Estarossa. Why didn't she compress or make it explode (like Nerobasta vs Derriere) but rather use it to push him away?

With all this in mind, how do you come to the conclusion that Elizabeth's ark bubble at the time was lethal and supposed to hurt him? Because the AA's said so? Actions always speak louder than words, and even then, Elizabeth wasn't visible to the AA's under the cloud of darkness Estarossa created, so all they saw was Estarossa be launched away by her ark, and decided to praise when they didn't understand any of the context around it.

So to me, yes the comment is always going to be weird, because they basically went: ''Congratulations Estarossa for surviving an ark by Lady Elizabeth that was never supposed to hurt you, but because we didn't see the situation, we are going to praise it anyway''.

The comment and praise they did, makes 100% no sense, and the ark is always going to be non-lethal to me, and I'll be surprised if you can find a defence that proves otherwise.

(sorry for the little rant here, just wanted to get all my thoughts out on one page so I don't end up confusing u)

 

[MrSchmitty7]

True, it did take Elizabeth + Sariel & Tarmiel in order to fully purify the Indura, but I'm just stating that the large majority of the effort came from Elizabeth, and without her the AA would've been deleted by the Indura.



Like I said, her top priority was to protect Derriere and even herself, since Estarossa wanted them both, creating space by displacing Estarossa was the best thing she could've done in the situation.

And I imagine she didn't just expect throwing him would ''resolve'' the problem. Shes aware the AA were there with her, and she knows that they are powerful enough to deal with him easily.

''oh here let me throw estarossa away so he can't get me or Derriere and let the AA release their 3000 year old revenge plan on him. gg'' is what she was probably thinking.



Meliodas she knows there is no reasoning with.
Estarossa is someone she has a past with, and has the potential to reason with him.

Plus, she only hurts people if she absolutely has to, as shown by when she had to defend herself from being choked to death.



Why do you think it was lethal then? There's nothing about the ark she used that would suggest it should've done damage.

If you disagree, you're free to think that, but everything points to me being correct about it.

Elizabeth on multiple occasions has used ark that has offensively injured people:

-She used ark to melt Derriere's hand in a situation which required Elizabeth to hurt her opponent in order to save somebody else. Plus she had no memories, so it was probably a desperate reaction rather than anything planned.

-She used an ark blast to hurt Meliodas. The intention was there because Meliodas basically told her ''stfu i don't love you now obey me'' which would make anybody pissed and looking to hurt someone.

-She wanted to save Indura, hence the purification spell that made her collapse in the end since it was that powerful it took all her strength.

-She needed to save herself from Estarossa, so she ended up using spitful saint against Estarossa in order to defend herself.

But in this situation, she's telling Estarossa she isn't going to allow her to collect the commandments, indirectly stating she's going to defend and protect Derriere (as seen by her hand placement in the discussion) and ends up choosing an ark bubble that ends up moving him away, rather than exploding on the spot. If you want to disagree, it's even supported further by the fact that Nerobasta used the very same type of ark bubble to contain Derriere, but because she had the desire to hurt and kill her, she compressed the ark and was most likely going to explode it for further damage, unlike Elizabeth who never had no such will which was expressed in her actions by moving him away rather than compressing or making the ark explode.

Edit: even further, she exploded the ark bubble on Derriere's hand, proving my point further.

So what's established by looking at Elizabeth's previous situations of ark usage and the current context is that:

-She wanted to protect Derriere, and didn't show any intention to hurt Estarossa.
-She chose an ark that was inherently less offensive, if she wanted to hurt him, she could've done an ark blast or literally any other technique she's already used to hurt people.
-She 100% has the ability to hurt him if she wanted to, since her magic made much more superior opponents receive damage, or make them be pushed to a state of desperation.
-Even when she used an ark bubble, she never used it a manner that would've hurt Estarossa. Why didn't she compress or make it explode (like Nerobasta vs Derriere) but rather use it to push him away?

With all this in mind, how do you come to the conclusion that Elizabeth's ark bubble at the time was lethal and supposed to hurt him? Because the AA's said so? Actions always speak louder than words, and even then, Elizabeth wasn't visible to the AA's under the cloud of darkness Estarossa created, so all they saw was Estarossa be launched away by her ark, and decided to praise when they didn't understand any of the context around it.

So to me, yes the comment is always going to be weird, because they basically went: ''Congratulations Estarossa for surviving an ark by Lady Elizabeth that was never supposed to hurt you, but because we didn't see the situation, we are going to praise it anyway''.

The comment and praise they did, makes 100% no sense, and the ark is always going to be non-lethal to me, and I'll be surprised if you can find a defence that proves otherwise.

(sorry for the little rant here, just wanted to get all my thoughts out on one page so I don't end up confusing u)

Rant's fine lol. But tbh it's been a week since last post so I'm kinda outta the mood to discuss Elizabeth atm. But just to clarify ark doesn't need to explode to damage individuals. Sariel used the outside of his ark to force Galand to use critical over, showing that it doesn't have to explode to be effective. And Ludoshel who according to you was pushed to his "ark limits" chose not to use an exploding ark to fight the indura in spite of the fact that he is capable of much bigger attacks. So, if exploding ark is peak ark, then Ludoshel was holding back with his light and we cannot confirm if Elizabeth has stronger ark magic.

Also the comment said they were surprised that he wasn't damaged, not that they were surprised that Elizabeth didn't try to hurt him. They never mention anything about Elizabeth's pacifism.