Discussion Estimating Characters PL

[Commanderaxe]

Challenge accepted



Move down to 1.5

AM doesn't compare to ''The One''

And before you argue about it, Escanor swipping in Meliodas general direction almost killed him.

Mael or Escanor using a weapon + cruel sun or something is beyond anything AM can even comprehend.

Eh I placed The One in that tier since Mel has gotten far stronger since then. But youre right in that theres no feats to show hes above him. Didn't really feel like creating another tier since i'd also place AM Mel a tier above Induras. Wouldn't argue against placing the One in his own tier though

Move Goddess Elizabeth to here, minimum.

And Merlin too.

The general consensus is that Merlin and Elizabeth deserve to be nowhere that high.

W H A T

How is she tier 5 when she has greater feats than people in higher tiers? ? Logic please

Plus, her wings dictate that she is AA tier minimum. Nakaba literally confirmed it when he said wings = power and Elizabeth's happen to be slightly longer/larger than Ludoshel.

I would honestly move her into 1.5 or 2 maximum.

She would've purified the Indura 1v1.

Exactly. Her greatest feat is purification. How is she purifying Dolor, Gloxinia, or Merlin exactly? As for her wings, still has nothing to do with feats. Like I said, I did contemplate putting her higher, but she doesnt have the feats for it. And her wings being larger than Ludoshell? Only very few people have actually stated that. For the most part it's subjective. In any case, in every debate, feats> anything else. By far. And so far, all of that power, has been shown in white magic. There's literally no debating this.

Urm, I know. Maybe slap them with ark?

lol?

@Commanderaxe please don't be silly.

And how much will that hurt them exactly? How much DOES her ark hurt a non demonic foe? Because it certainly didn't hurt Estarossa/Mael. Physically slapping them would mean she'd have to get into close quarters combat, in which she'd be dead as we've seen from her durability, it's shoddy. Stop thinking as a fan, that's your major flaw.

Tier 3 minimum.

Her arsenal is broken and is top tier.

Raw power? Debatable.

In response to this entire list:

Spoiler: Sobreno don't open this

She's been shown to be susceptible to speed blitz. As we've also seen. Some extremely powerful people do have weaknesses, and that just happens to be Merlin's. Chandler was able to appear behind Merlin before she could even react.

Spoiler

And that wasn't even him at full power. There was literally nothing stopping him from just jabbing through her head as he walked past. Except the fact that his intention wasn't to immediately kill them. Once again, STOP thinking with your fanboyism.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 4, 2018 ---

What feats place Merlin that high? If I may ask. And tier in terms of what? Pure prowess? Combat ability?

Well honestly you're right that a lot of characters can just speed blitz her, but I mainly placed her at that rank due to the sheer hax of perfect cube. Character's like King or Gowther may or may not have the speed to dodge it. For those types of character's it's really a toss up. For the physical power houses however, then yes, I would give them the win against Merlin.

 

[T25]

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 4, 2018 ---

Well honestly you're right that a lot of characters can just speed blitz her, but I mainly placed her at that rank due to the sheer hax of perfect cube. Character's like King or Gowther may or may not have the speed to dodge it. For those types of character's it's really a toss up. For the physical power houses however, then yes, I would give them the win against Merlin.

Perfect cube has two great capabilities: defense and imprisonment. The only offensive capability it has displayed was in its rebound force. As such I do not quite understand how it is used as a qualifier for u to place Merlin so high up.

 

[Commanderaxe]

Perfect cube has two great capabilities: defense and imprisonment. The only offensive capability it has displayed was in its rebound force. As such I do not quite understand how it is used as a qualifier for u to place Merlin so high up.

Just as you said. Imprisonment. She's really not that high though. Just a tier above the likes of Fraudrin and Grayroad but at the lower end along with Gowther or King

 

[T25]

Just as you said. Imprisonment. She's really not that high though. Just a tier above the likes of Fraudrin and Grayroad but at the lower end along with Gowther or King

So then on what aspects place the AA above them in your ranking system?

 

[sobreno]

So then on what aspects place the AA above them in your ranking system?

Their graces + higher speed and physical capabilities + ability to use Ark on a far greater scale. ( laser and nuke Ark + Omega Ark )

Archangels like Sariel and Tarmiel can send you into another dimension and if your power level isn't equal to or higher than them, you are doomed.

Ludo can blitz them with Flash.

Mael with Sunshine? No comment.

 

[T25]

Their graces + higher speed and physical capabilities + ability to use Ark on a far greater scale. ( laser and nuke Ark + Omega Ark )

Archangels like Sariel and Tarmiel can send you into another dimension and if your power level isn't equal to or higher than them, you are doomed.

Ludo can blitz them with Flash.

Mael with Sunshine? No comment.

The extent of their physical and magical power and ability places them above the likes of king diane dolor gloxinia and the like huh? That is to say the below tier has the qualities but to a lesser extent placing them where they are apparently, correct? So how does Merlin fit into that mold?

Merlin has magical abilities that have been hinted but not portrayed however she has been noted to have poor physical ability and yet has been placed on a tier that takes into regard both qualities, i would assume. I would likewise assume that those two aspects would be scaled as well, hence gloxinia: who also has relatively poor physical ability, but has his scale tipped because of his massive magical ability. So how does Merlin compare to gloxinia for her to be so highly placed given those aspects being the determinant.

 

[sobreno]

The extent of their physical and magical power and ability places them above the likes of king diane dolor gloxinia and the like huh? That is to say the below tier has the qualities but to a lesser extent placing them where they are apparently, correct? So how does Merlin fit into that mold?

Merlin has magical abilities that have been hinted but not portrayed however she has been noted to have poor physical ability and yet has been placed on a tier that takes into regard both qualities, i would assume. I would likewise assume that those two aspects would be scaled as well, hence gloxinia: who also has relatively poor physical ability, but has his scale tipped because of his massive magical ability. So how does Merlin compare to gloxinia for her to be so highly placed given those aspects being the determinant.

Because we have Gloxinia's power level and we don't have her power level at all. And she has a poor durability state, Gloxinia at least showed good durability and speed than her.

 

[T25]

Because we have Gloxinia's power level and we don't have her power level at all. And she has a poor durability state, Gloxinia at least showed good durability and speed than her.

Yet they r the same tier?

 

[sobreno]

Yet they r the same tier?

Yeah, it is debatable for Merlin ( IMO ), she has tools to win but the question is that if she could land those tools in time or not before getting outspeeded really badly.

 

[T25]

Yeah, it is debatable for Merlin ( IMO ), she has tools to win but the question is that if she could land those tools in time or not before getting outspeeded really badly.

One of the most determining factors is how abilities are used. Speed is a benefit not a determinant. An advantage. Escanor in all his fights hardly moves. Is galand above or below Merlin according to u? How about Eli?

 

[sobreno]

One of the most determining factors is how abilities are used. Speed is a benefit not a determinant. An advantage. Escanor in all his fights hardly moves. Is galand above or below Merlin according to u? How about Eli?

Speed is a huge factor lol, I can see how you don't visit thread like vsbattle, narutoforums or any forum where people discuss about characters fighting each other.

Escanor hardly moves but he can blitz anyone if he wishes, he already did that several times.
Galand is above her, she has no way to react against him as shown before, Merlin's physical stats didn't change at all.
Same for Elizabeth.

 

[T25]

Speed is a huge factor lol, I can see how you don't visit thread like vsbattle, narutoforums or any forum where people discuss about characters fighting each other.

Escanor hardly moves but he can blitz anyone if he wishes, he already did that several times.
Galand is above her, she has no way to react against him as shown before, Merlin's physical stats didn't change at all.
Same for Elizabeth.

Speed is a big factor and u are right in that I don’t really visit many forums. However, what u have stated does not contradict what I have stated. The fastest person isn’t always going to win. Do u not agree with this? The thing about vs discussions in general is that, I would say, they have fairly weak analysis. As we do not know much about a characters full abilities, we are stuck with whatever amount of abilities we are given and based the entire discussion off of those effects as if that’s all they can do. That is already a flaw. Physical and magical ability is taken into account but how about mental ability? What we say they can do doesn’t mean that’s what they would do.

I don’t recall escanor blitzing? Blind siding yes

As for eli I don’t quite understand what you mean by “same”

 

[sobreno]

Speed is a big factor and u are right in that I don’t really visit many forums. However, what u have stated does not contradict what I have stated. The fastest person isn’t always going to win. Do u not agree with this? The thing about vs discussions in general is that, I would say, they have fairly weak analysis. As we do not know much about a characters full abilities, we are stuck with whatever amount of abilities we are given and based the entire discussion off of those effects as if that’s all they can do. That is already a flaw. Physical and magical ability is taken into account but how about mental ability? What we say they can do doesn’t mean that’s what they would do.

I don’t recall escanor blitzing? Blind siding yes

As for eli I don’t quite understand what you mean by “same”

Yes, I don't agree with this because the fastest person will blitz the hell out of a slower opponent, there is a reason why people believe Saint Seiya will one-shot DBZ because their speed reaches the septillion time of the speed of light. Good luck with that, your brain wouldn't comprehend what going on when your speed is so slow that you can't keep up or react at all.
Believe me when I said that speed is a terrible game changer and a huge factor for the majority of people in a manga/anime forum.

Escanor blitzed both Mael and Meliodas when he becomes far stronger than them. 11 AM for Mael and The One for Meliodas.

It is the same because her physical abilities are also really weak, she lacks good feats in that department.

 

[Demonspeed]

Merlin's PL should be comparable to Gowther, King and Diane. With or without Perfect Cube, there was no way she would have defeated both Fraudrin and Gray Lord like that if her PL was still 4710, the former said her magic power was massive. And unlike Ban she was not helpless against Mera's skeletons, Ban is the only Sin who had not grown.

 

[T25]

Yes, I don't agree with this because the fastest person will blitz the hell out of a slower opponent, there is a reason why people believe Saint Seiya will one-shot DBZ because their speed reaches the septillion time of the speed of light. Good luck with that, your brain wouldn't comprehend what going on when your speed is so slow that you can't keep up or react at all.
Believe me when I said that speed is a terrible game changer and a huge factor for the majority of people in a manga/anime forum.

Escanor blitzed both Mael and Meliodas when he becomes far stronger than them. 11 AM for Mael and The One for Meliodas.

It is the same because her physical abilities are also really weak, she lacks good feats in that department.

VS comparison between different universes and stories was never something I was interested in unless it was in regards to the unreasonable physics behind it. Regardless what if that speed could not be used? Like being trapped within an extremely limited area. How would speed be as useful then? I understand how people in the community view speed however I am questioning the multitude of veritables that can come into play that renders speed less effective. Such as having speed but lacking power.

The One did not blitz anyone as, like classic Escanor, he did not move. He had power but speed (other than arm speed) was not on display. It was the same against Mael

So far, it seems that Merlin is far below the majority since physical ability is the most important?

 

[Demonspeed]

VS comparison between different universes and stories was never something I was interested in unless it was in regards to the unreasonable physics behind it. Regardless what if that speed could not be used? Like being trapped within an extremely limited area. How would speed be as useful then? I understand how people in the community view speed however I am questioning the multitude of veritables that can come into play that renders speed less effective. Such as having speed but lacking power.

The One did not blitz anyone as, like classic Escanor, he did not move. He had power but speed (other than arm speed) was not on display. It was the same against Mael

So far, it seems that Merlin is far below the majority since physical ability is the most important?

Physical ability is not more important, overall I'd say that magic is more important even. But people have different fighting styles. Merlin has a variety of spells, offensive and defensive, plus Infinity and her PL is good enough.

 

[T25]

Merlin's PL should be comparable to Gowther, King and Diane. With or without Perfect Cube, there was no way she would have defeated both Fraudrin and Gray Lord like that if her PL was still 4710, the former said her magic power was massive. And unlike Ban she was not helpless against Mera's skeletons, Ban is the only Sin who had not grown.

Magic stat seems a bit more indirect than anything. Does it represent capacity, potency or both? And what circumstance came about that would alter Merlin’s magic stat from its initial given value. Meliodas increase was the return of his original do to his curse, Eli the same, Diane and king adaptive training, Gowther memory and soul return(basically), ban training. So Merlin because she unpetrified herself? She hid it?

 

[sobreno]

VS comparison between different universes and stories was never something I was interested in unless it was in regards to the unreasonable physics behind it. Regardless what if that speed could not be used? Like being trapped within an extremely limited area. How would speed be as useful then? I understand how people in the community view speed however I am questioning the multitude of veritables that can come into play that renders speed less effective. Such as having speed but lacking power.

The One did not blitz anyone as, like classic Escanor, he did not move. He had power but speed (other than arm speed) was not on display. It was the same against Mael

So far, it seems that Merlin is far below the majority since physical ability is the most important?

Speed is useful because as long as you are far faster than your opponent, you can attack before his neurons could process of moving a muscle or preparing a spell or technique.

That is what blitzing means.

Those variables don't matter when you are as slow as a snail compared to a character who can move as an example in the speed of light.

Escanor indeed blitzed them, Mael clearly stated that he didn't even see him moving, he was outspeeded so badly that he didn't see anything.
Same for Meliodas in the One form.

Nope, Merlin is below anyone who can either outspeed her so badly that she can't react in time or makes her magic irrelevant. ( like Chandler or Meliodas with Full Counter )

 

[T25]

Physical ability is not more important, overall I'd say that magic is more important even. But people have different fighting styles. Merlin has a variety of spells, offensive and defensive, plus Infinity and her PL is good enough.

I agree. It seems that most people don’t like to credit versatility. Merlin’s main strength is her multitude of spells. And the length at which they can be maintained

 

[Demonspeed]

Magic stat seems a bit more indirect than anything. Does it represent capacity, potency or both? And what circumstance came about that would alter Merlin’s magic stat from its initial given value. Meliodas increase was the return of his original do to his curse, Eli the same, Diane and king adaptive training, Gowther memory and soul return(basically), ban training. So Merlin because she unpetrified herself? She hid it?

That's the thing. We don't know, but it happened for sure. We just have to wait and see.