Discussion Estimating Characters PL

[MrSchmitty7]

His dance was hyped to hell and back and Nakaba didn't even allow him to use it at any time. If the increase is as drastic as it was with Diane, he should've been able to face off against Chandler with no problem.

And then there's Gloxinia who not only had 4 more Basquias Techniques to show, but had Disaster which should've been significantly more effective than what King showed, given that his magic stat is the highest one in the series. Why didn't he use his Form 2 Necrosis and that fabled Disaster ability to increase the toxic effects of the poison?

I can understand chandler beating them because of night boost + his second form, but they should've been able to use their abilities at least before their death or in any other fight. Gloxinia especially since his power is supposed to near King's, so it would've been cool to see what else King has to look forward to.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Must admit that Nakaba handled the Kings pretty poorly.

Gloxinia never revealed all of the forms of Basqueas. And the ones he repeatedly used where the forms that seemed weaker. Why didn't he spam the form that had the thorns that poison you to death (IIRC).

And Drole never used his Gaia form, or never danced. And when he did dance, it was against Zeldris who has God-like magic sealing abilities.

Diane jumps 40k when she dances. As others have said, Drole could reach a potential PL of AA tier.

Just one example of how Nakaba poorly writes battles so Meliodas can look good.

But hopefully he redeems the Kings in some way by having their powers inherited by Diane and King?

Imagine Diane getting Gaia form or all of Droles abilities and King ends up being able to use the forms of Basequas and Dahlia spear (if they have one).

Anyone think King and Diane could reach AA tier when they reach their full potential?

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Must admit that Nakaba handled the Kings pretty poorly.

Gloxinia never revealed all of the forms of Basqueas. And the ones he repeatedly used where the forms that seemed weaker. Why didn't he spam the form that had the thorns that poison you to death (IIRC).

And Drole never used his Gaia form, or never danced. And when he did dance, it was against Zeldris who has God-like magic sealing abilities.

Diane jumps 40k when she dances. As others have said, Drole could reach a potential PL of AA tier.

Just one example of how Nakaba poorly writes battles so Meliodas can look good.

But hopefully he redeems the Kings in some way by having their powers inherited by Diane and King?

Imagine Diane getting Gaia form or all of Droles abilities and King ends up being able to use the forms of Basequas and Dahlia spear (if they have one).

Anyone think King and Diane could reach AA tier when they reach their full potential?

Diane probably not, I think she'll be commandment level for the manga. King probably has the most potential since he's almost Glox level. However if his durability doesn't go up odds are he'll just end up getting one shotted before he can show his power.

 

[HereNThere]

I'm biased, but I think King is going to be 100k or so EoS. Nakaba tends to treat him well power wise too. His durability doesn't matter much since he's a protagonist and has plot protection and willpower. He's taken hits that probably should've ended him before and been fine.

Diane's going to get stronger, but I'm not sure about her upper limit.

 

[Kay3795]

Must admit that Nakaba handled the Kings pretty poorly.

Gloxinia never revealed all of the forms of Basqueas. And the ones he repeatedly used where the forms that seemed weaker. Why didn't he spam the form that had the thorns that poison you to death (IIRC).

And Drole never used his Gaia form, or never danced. And when he did dance, it was against Zeldris who has God-like magic sealing abilities.

Diane jumps 40k when she dances. As others have said, Drole could reach a potential PL of AA tier.

Just one example of how Nakaba poorly writes battles so Meliodas can look good.

But hopefully he redeems the Kings in some way by having their powers inherited by Diane and King?

Imagine Diane getting Gaia form or all of Droles abilities and King ends up being able to use the forms of Basequas and Dahlia spear (if they have one).

Anyone think King and Diane could reach AA tier when they reach their full potential?

We can't say the EX King didn't power up during the Chandler fight. Nakaba is just vague to not reveal their PL during the fight, as he often does.

We know that the EX fought with all their power but Nakaba illustrated that they were just no match for the "Highest Demon" (consists of Mel, Zel, Cha, Cus) by having a Demon of that calibre quickly despatch them off-panel. Zel himself quickly dispatched of Balor in the past, crippling his pride in the process.

The only ones that can match or surpass the Highest Demons so far are Graced AA & of course Gods.

 

[Demonspeed]

I am pretty sure that all the Sins will be AA tier by the end of this manga. And so far, we don't know the limits of Diane's dance.

 

[T25]

So, you also believe that Ludociel is stronger than Elizabeth, right?

Oh sorry never replied. I believe ludociel is far stronger battle wise yes but I do believe Eli may be stronger in magic

 

[Inuhanyou123]

Diane jumps 40k when she dances. As others have said, Drole could reach a potential PL of AA tier.

The whole point of gloxnia saying that diane and king were the next inheritors of the clans was that they would become more powerful than they ever did. Glox himself said that King's PL was as strong as his just with his wings barely grown out showed his potential as much higher by default

Oh sorry never replied. I believe ludociel is far stronger battle wise yes but I do believe Eli may be stronger in magic

there is no numerical value in this manga called "battle". You mean strength right? Both strength and magic are battle barometers.

 

[T25]

The whole point of gloxnia saying that diane and king were the next inheritors of the clans was that they would become more powerful than they ever did. Glox himself said that King's PL was as strong as his just with his wings barely grown out showed his potential as much higher by default




there is no numerical value in this manga called "battle". You mean strength right? Both strength and magic are battle barometers.

Nope I mean battle. That is a problem when it comes to people determining a characters capabilities. Ludo has the superior battle skill, instinct and experience. That influences how their power is used. While I also think his strength stat is higher it is not what I was referring to. If there were no pl in this manga how then would you judge a persons strength hmm?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 15, 2018 ---

Not she’s not lmfao

I actually like Goddess Elizabeth

And I’m not ignoring anything but Elizabeth has done nothing to make me put her up with the Commandments or arc angels

Literally that’s why everyone hates Elizabeth is because y’all try to force her in these conversations when’s she’s done nothing but heal people

This is the same Elizabeth that almost got killed by Chandler’s demonized skin fat lmao

Until we get a PL number, until she defeats a strong opponent or displays immense raw power, she’s out of these discussions

No matter how hard you try

I do not believe the that “raw power” is the term you should be using as she has already displayed raw power. What everybody here uses to justify a persons strength is the character ability to harm. Eli is probably the sole character with an unknown amount of power that has not displayed that intent and therefore is judged differently. Had there been no introduction of power levels opinions would be slightly different. My justification for this is that PL are the default reference people use to judge a characters strength.

Furthermore the reason Eli is interesting to discuss power wise is because she does not follow the status quo. The reason people hate her isn’t because a couple people try to shove her done your throat it’s because the interest in her for a large majority is lacking and as such when a few people wish to discuss her in a manner contrary to the vast majority’s opinion it is not taken to kindly. The fact that you can disregard her completely in a situation she is present in makes no sense to me.

I believe the chandler incident was for the purpose of giving her a haircut. I don’t get why Merlin being not out by falling against a wall is less noteworthy than Eli being cut on the forehead by something discreet to enough to kill

 

[TarXan]

Nope I mean battle. That is a problem when it comes to people determining a characters capabilities. Ludo has the superior battle skill, instinct and experience. That influences how their power is used. While I also think his strength stat is higher it is not what I was referring to. If there were no pl in this manga how then would you judge a persons strength hmm?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 15, 2018 ---

I do not believe the that “raw power” is the term you should be using as she has already displayed raw power. What everybody here uses to justify a persons strength is the character ability to harm. Eli is probably the sole character with an unknown amount of power that has not displayed that intent and therefore is judged differently. Had there been no introduction of power levels opinions would be slightly different. My justification for this is that PL are the default reference people use to judge a characters strength.

Furthermore the reason Eli is interesting to discuss power wise is because she does not follow the status quo. The reason people hate her isn’t because a couple people try to shove her done your throat it’s because the interest in her for a large majority is lacking and as such when a few people wish to discuss her in a manner contrary to the vast majority’s opinion it is not taken to kindly. The fact that you can disregard her completely in a situation she is present in makes no sense to me.

I believe the chandler incident was for the purpose of giving her a haircut. I don’t get why Merlin being not out by falling against a wall is less noteworthy than Eli being cut on the forehead by something discreet to enough to kill

Until we get confirmation, Elizabeth has no feats that make her Commandment or Arc Angel level

 

[T25]

Until we get confirmation, Elizabeth has no feats that make her Commandment or Arc Angel level

I would disagree. You say she has no feats, I see the indura situation as a feat of raw magic power. A perspective very few seem to hold. I disagree because I believe I saw her perform something of note and wish to see what level this is confirmed to be in the future. You on the other hand disregard all of her actions as inconsequential until otherwise stated despite the fact that the three parties capabilities were displayed at the same time in regards to each other. This is illogical I believe. A characters strength is known only by the author. Given that, I merely question what level they are at and what they can grow to be. I make no definite claims nor do I believe it right to set a definite claim until proven or unproven when regarding an unset character.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

The problem with saying. "Elizabeth has no feats outside of magic, but her magic is enough to make her AA tier" is that by default it excludes weaknesses to try and make a character look strong. Here's an example. During the fight with the AA Galland was able to cleanly slice through Tarmiel. Now by this logic you would think he's upper tier since he can easily bisect an AA like butter, but he's only 27K (This was done without critical over). Realistically, Galand might be a more skilled fighter and might be able to swing a weapon better, but in literally everything else he's fodder when compared to the AA. Which was pretty much demonstrated by how he couldn't even tank a basic attack from Ludo. Basically, you're only as strong as your weakest link.

 

[T25]

The problem with saying. "Elizabeth has no feats outside of magic, but her magic is enough to make her AA tier" is that by default it excludes weaknesses to try and make a character look strong. Here's an example. During the fight with the AA Galland was able to cleanly slice through Tarmiel. Now by this logic you would think he's upper tier since he can easily bisect an AA like butter, but he's only 27K (This was done without critical over). Realistically, Galand might be a more skilled fighter and might be able to swing a weapon better, but in literally everything else he's fodder when compared to the AA. Which was pretty much demonstrated by how he couldn't even tank a basic attack from Ludo. Basically, you're only as strong as your weakest link.

I do agree with this. I have only ever stated that Eli may be above them or around them in magic prowess I have not really thought her strength and battle technique to be as refined as theirs.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

I do agree with this. I have only ever stated that Eli may be above them or around them in magic prowess I have not really thought her strength and battle technique to be as refined as theirs.

Yeah it’s always the strength and comabt areas that cause a bit of debate in the threads.

 

[T25]

Yeah it’s always the strength and comabt areas that cause a bit of debate in the threads.

Yeah it’s why I think magic can get somewhat shafted as the physical aspect of fights and what not do in fact look cooler and are more dominant. But I do not wish for that to skewer my perception. No matter how skewered it may really be despite my efforts

 

[OtakuFreak]

This fandom/forum: Elizabeth has no feats to put her commandment or AA or higher tier

Show me where Zeldris has feats that put him at AA tier or higher because Elizabeth has more feats than him yet is literally treated as fodder.

Zeldris? He gets made irrelevant like 3 times this manga yet everyone is still ''zeldris 100k''

Someone show or tell me how Zeldris is 100k since we are going off feats.

Because he is not 100k based off his current feats and fancy titles.

 

[Inuhanyou123]

The problem with saying. "Elizabeth has no feats outside of magic, but her magic is enough to make her AA tier" is that by default it excludes weaknesses to try and make a character look strong.

You should take mind to realize that that also goes in reverse with a bias against her to make her look weak. If one is excluding her magic feats to say "her strength feats are weak so that means she is weak", that is completely wrong. People have brought up derieri's punch having knocked Elizabeth out as an example of Elizabeth being weak while ignoring that Elizabeth blew off Derieri's hand in reverse without even trying, which would imply she is strong. So which is it? Is she weak or strong?

And what determines being strong in the first place and what barometer are you using?

I mean, that's like saying you need spirit and strength stat to be "AA level". When strength is only one factor of prowess and is not any sort of barometer of being "AA level". Just as an example, if Elizabeth's PL just as a hypothetical, is 100k, and her magic stat is like 85k, her spirit stat is 14k and her strength is 2k, her 2 other stats are generally meaningless if her magic is so much of her ability that she can use in countless ways(and we have seen her use her magical abilities atleast 8 or 9 different ways already). In addition to this, contrary to the nonsense some people were arguing previous to the current chapter, ark can be used easily as a weapon outside of darkness, and has the same offensive capability as darkness on other creatures.

King is an example of a character similar to this who has a weak body, but has very strong defensive and offensive magic capabilities. Nobody says he is weak.

There is almost no difference between her and King from where i am standing in their general type of diversity of action, based on how she has been portrayed in the flashback and since regaining her memories outside of the addition of Elizabeth also obviously having extreme support depth as well which she has focused on being a pacifist first and foremost.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Zeldris tanked Ludo's blast and walked out with a mere bruise. He effortless soloed Dolor and was stated to be the only one other than AM Mel capable of breaking out of the cocoon of darkness. His base power is 61k, and we know for a FACT that he has a second demon mark, which from what we've seen increases ones power by up to 20k or more. That's not even including the DK's magical abilities such as magic sealing. We also have a statement from Arthur placing the likes of Cusack at the same class of Zeldris. So yes, we have evidence to believe that Zeldris is at the very least, 80k at max and is more than capable of trading blow's with an AA at the level of Ludoshell.

As for Elizabeth, we have her purifying feat, which as we've seen many times, white magic such as purging and ark can work on an individual with significantly higher power level than the caster. Even throwing that aside, we have no idea if she can even just purify a regular demon. Aside from that, what else do we have? Wing Size? Sure, we can assume she's strong due to her wing size. But it's really hard for people to believe that when she's unconscious or kidnapped every other f*cking chapter. Or gets knocked tf out by a mini Chandler in a casper cosplay. I mean here's the run down.

1. Has she traded blows with an AA tier character? The Indura's straight up stood there as she launched her attack and she was assisted before they could fully retaliate. Not to mention the nature of the Indura's gave her a particular advantage. So no.

2. Has she single-handely taken down an AA level enemy with raw offensive power? No. She was assisted against the Induras, and even then her ability was advantageous during that specific situation.

3. Have we gotten any statements referring to her sheer power? Similar to how OG Gowther, a man whom even the DK deemed so dangerous as to imprison, mentioned how he'd have to go all out in a fight against Zeldris? Has Elizabeth gotten such praise in regards to battle power? No. Well maybe once, when the archangels complimented her arch's strength against Estarossa/Mael. What was the result? He had not a single scratch.

4. Do we have a databook stat placing her at an AA level of power? No

She's honestly just inconsistent. No amount of speculation will change that. No one will believe anything Elizabeth fans spew out until we get a clear and concise depiction of where she stands offensively. She can purify and heal all she wants, but until an actual 1v1 with no interruptions and her full capabilities such as speed(both reaction and combat), durability, offensive strength, etc are put to the test, we will always have doubt regarding the tier in which her fans propagate her to be.

- Soloing Dolor doesn't put Zeldris at AA tier. Meliodas could do that at 56k.

-Taking one blast mediocre ark from a weakened AA doesn't mean anything, otherwise Elizabeth would be 50k commandment tier instantly since she took the same amount of damage as Zeldris from a basic punch by Derriere and healed it off.

-Breaking out of the cocoon is because of the Demon King's power. And we don't know if his father's powers are just hax abilities or a PL boost. So it's not a big enough feat.

-His confirmed PL is 61k and we don't know if his second demon mark works in the same way as Meliodas, that's just your opinion and speculation at bit at the moment. Yes, it gives a PL boost but it could be as low as 5k for example. And Cusack's comment means nothing since everyone ran off with it and jumped the bandwagon of Estarossa having a second demon mark and being 90k, and look how that turned out.

1 - Has Zeldris? Besides one small engagement with Ludoshel in a host, have we seen him actually have a full on fight with someone at AA tier or higher? No, yet everyone places him there.

The Indura moment to me proves Elizabeth's magic is at minimum AA tier, considering Ludoshels failed and hers didn't.

2. Yes she has, and it's even more than Zeldris. She stood in front of 2 God's and didn't die in one hit. It doesn't matter how much they hold back, 2 Gods together aren't weaker than AA tier, otherwise Meliodas would've been completely fine. Him being fucked up.means they were using power above his second demon mark level. So 100k+

Did Zeldris ever have a full fight or duel with someone as powerful as the Gods? I don't think so if my memory is right.

And the Indura moment isn't fair. She was in a 1v2 yet still did better than the AA. Meliodas would have lost pre-purgatory against the Two Kings in a healthy 1v2 easily, but did anyone hold that against him back then? Of course not because it's not a fair match up and this fandom makes exceptions for Meliodas.

3 - The Four Archangels consistently ask or praise her power. If she was some dumb fodder with no talent why would they do that? The Archangels don't praise each other or even Mael that much, yet they do with Elizabeth? I wonder why...

4- Databook is the least of our problems.

I agree with what @Inuhanyou123 said above. Why does everyone put Elizabeth down for being a weaker physical combatant? No one emphasises that as much against a King or Gloxinia, who are essentially 100% magic. In fact, people believe that a full fledged King could be AA tier, And his PL would be magic only, yet with Elizabeth she can't be 100k or AA tier because she is too physically weak?

Gloxinia and King have literally almost no PL in their strength, yet Gloxinia and King can keep up with some top tier characters. Meliodas at 56k didn't outright speed blitz Gloxinia, So why does everyone say anybody can speed blitz Elizabeth?

Zeldris has no feats that conclusively put him at 100k. Nothing proves that. Unless you want to show me scans and prove otherwise, Zeldris is top tier commandment level until otherwise confirmed.

But yet, we all know Zeldris is AA tier or higher because that is where he fits in the series and every one accepts that despite him having no feats for it. In fact, he keeps getting defeated or put down consistently by other characters, yet people take him seriously.

Elizabeth story wise fits with being AA tier or higher yet everyone disagrees with that and call her fodder. .

If you say Elizabeth needs feats to be placed at AA tier or higher yet perfectly accept the notion of Zeldris being at that tier with no confirmation or feats then you're just a hypocrite with a bias against Elizabeth. Simple.

Don’t forget that was also nearly killed by cheek fat, and needed to be saved.

That should be our biggest indication she’s not a serious combatant right there.

I'm literally sick of saying this over and over.

It's as if people are ignorant by choice just for Elizabeth.

Elizabeth is a human at the moment, SHE IS weakened tremendously both physically and magically. That attack would've never worked on her prime.

Stop using a moment against a weakened Elizabeth to justify her as being fodder at her prime, otherwise Galan beaten Meliodas is set in stone and means Meliodas isn't really 142k.

Yep added that lol. This inconsistency is her biggest flaw and honestly if Nakaba wanted her to be taken seriously as the goddess clan's 2nd strongest he really should've done things differently lmao.

Read above regarding this point.

 

[Inuhanyou123]

I dont even really have a problem with people saying "we need feats to be conclusive on elizabeth position regarding her offensive abilities and what exactly she can do".

Perfectly fine if you want more feats and want Nakaba to show off what she can do more definitively. I also want to see more feats from her as well to determine more about her power.

But to claim she is definitively weak and ineffectual regarding current opponents(i heard people throw around 30k or less), or that there is no actual evidence of her being powerful AT ALL is very strange from my perspective considering what we have seen so far, which while mostly not offensive, is still extremely powerful and on the level of competing with commandments ATLEAST in terms of support ability.

That's in terms of healing, defense AND darkness dispersal(from her Ark of Jonah making estarossa's black hound which could have killed pretty much all of the rest of the squad look like an ant, to dispersing all of mela's miasma in her snake form out of her body or completely reversing her venom which went beyond Ban's healing ability)

Its straight out of Deathpierce's ignorance playbook. ANd he got slapped down by the 2 archangels quite fast. I'm just saying making conclusions like that is not smart.

 

[Tragicdeath]

Until we get confirmation, Elizabeth has no feats that make her Commandment or Arc Angel level

Whats that even suppose to mean, omg. If she doesnt have feats then shes not even in a commandment level. Id say HK's level.