No. Red Scabbards vs Kaido lasted 13 chapters, BM vs Marco was 3 chapters.
Marco has a known HP limit, so it can't be said that he was unharmed. BM, on the other hand, got out of there unscathed, Kaido didn't get out completely unscathed against Scabbards, they have more AP than Marco.
Oda chose to showcase Marco's standout moment against Queen and King. But it's worth remembering he didn't do any damage to King, his blows weren't very relevant to Queen (who visually, had her HP bar practically full before Sanji used IF, had no wounds in Queen's drawing, and Oda didn't fails to show by art how hurt the characters are), King didn't use magma or increased speed, Queen didn't use snake mode or Germa's powers.
Zoro in Ennies Lobby faced Kaku and Jyabura at the same time with Usopp getting in the way.
I mean yeah, you can challenge portrayal. I've seen the arguments of feats > portrayal, because feats actually happened in the manga.
At times, I'm even included to agree here.
But, what happens when there are contradictory feats? The one I bought up for example - base Kaido one shotting beginning of Wano Luffy within a second once he got serious, vs failing to one shot characters that are weaker.
In these scenarios, I go with portrayal/intent.
Oda likely just wanted to show Kaido was so far ahead of Luffy, he went overboard. He later has Scabbards tanking many hits from Kaido, Law and half dead Zoro tanking thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido etc
Another example would be feats of Kaido vs feats of BM.
Yes, Kaido is stronger. He has portrayal and feats for that.
But, the feats make it seem like Kaido will mid-high diff BM, while the portrayal suggests more of a high-extreme diff win for Kaido. Which do you think is the more accurate representation here? I'd say portrayal, cause it makes more sense given all we knew about both until their the raid.
1. Sure. I say Kid and Marco are overall in same tier.
But then again, depends on what you see as "YC1". If you include Marco within it, then yeah Kid is also YC1.
But, I consider Kid stronger than King (the basis for YC1) by a decent margin.
2. Sure, they needed to work together.
Yes, plot was used to defeat BM...........like I've said many times before, I can understand if you think that Law + Kid would've eventually lost if BM didn't fall down, though I disagree with it.
BUT.......everything until that point was already an extreme diff! Law+ Kid made BM get serious in a way she hadn't for decades, made her eat up an year of her lifespan and buff herself up, gave her internal organ damage, broke her bones, got her to cough up blood and scream in pain etc.
Do you think, say King + Katakuri can replicate it? I doubt it. Maybe, if Katakuri is fast enough to distract BM and buy time for King to spam magma esque attacks. Still, them pushing BM as much as Law + Kid did is a big stretch IMO
Marco fought BM alone for almost as long as Kaido fought the scabbards, and came out of it unscathed. If the gap was as high as you claim, then Marco would've got stomped by the time BM was done with him.
Instead she claimed she couldn't afford wasting her energy on him.
There is no way Law or Kid is taking on two commanders at once either, at best they can hold on for some time and lose, like Marco did.
Addressing the 1st inconsistent portryal in Wano….Kaido tanks G4 Luffy attacks & 1Shots Luffy….Later we see Scabbards doing damage and surviving more than one blow.
**Luffy got 1hit k.o because he couldn’t use FS to dodge. Luffy was angry & upset with no Advanced Haki to hurt Kaido.
There’s tons of conversations to be had about context over portryal.
I think the YC1 lv characters in a DUO can pressure a Yonkou into an extreme fight.
I don’t wanna post about tiers/lv or how I view other characters in comparison too much.
Kidd VS BiG Mom 1 Vs 1 was looking UP at first; Same way Luffy vs Kaido during RoofPiece was looking up….
Big Mom proceeded to thrash them until the DOUBLE AWAKENING; Which she heals, trash them again & we get DOUBLE AWAKENING; & Then some more DOUBLE AWAKEING for the Win. Yet Big Mom without the Bombs would have stopped her fall & returned to fight…instead of getting blown up
So whether it’s Kidd or Law we are talking about. I don’t see either of them 1 Vs 1 lasting so long being so effective.
As Luffy just before G5. Even with ACoC unlocked & trading blows with Kaido was not enough to put a Yonkou down. Luffy struggled 1 Vs 1…Not 2 vs 1.
So no not King/Katakuri…Who haven’t been see against Yonko…But pair them with someone else. I think we get the same extreme Diff
Addressing the 1st inconsistent portryal in Wano….Kaido tanks G4 Luffy attacks & 1Shots Luffy….Later we see Scabbards doing damage and surviving more than one blow.
**Luffy got 1hit k.o because he couldn’t use FS to dodge. Luffy was angry & upset with no Advanced Haki to hurt Kaido.
There’s tons of conversations to be had about context over portryal.
I think the YC1 lv characters in a DUO can pressure a Yonkou into an extreme fight.
I don’t wanna post about tiers/lv or how I view other characters in comparison too much.
Kidd VS BiG Mom 1 Vs 1 was looking UP at first; Same way Luffy vs Kaido during RoofPiece was looking up….
Big Mom proceeded to thrash them until the DOUBLE AWAKENING; Which she heals, trash them again & we get DOUBLE AWAKENING; & Then some more DOUBLE AWAKEING for the Win. Yet Big Mom without the Bombs would have stopped her fall & returned to fight…instead of getting blown up
So whether it’s Kidd or Law we are talking about. I don’t see either of them 1 Vs 1 lasting so long being so effective.
As Luffy just before G5. Even with ACoC unlocked & trading blows with Kaido was not enough to put a Yonkou down. Luffy struggled 1 Vs 1…Not 2 vs 1.
So no not King/Katakuri…Who haven’t been see against Yonko…But pair them with someone else. I think we get the same extreme Diff
Addressing the 1st inconsistent portryal in Wano….Kaido tanks G4 Luffy attacks & 1Shots Luffy….Later we see Scabbards doing damage and surviving more than one blow.
**Luffy got 1hit k.o because he couldn’t use FS to dodge. Luffy was angry & upset with no Advanced Haki to hurt Kaido.
Future Sight doesn't matter at all here, because we're talking about durability. Neither the scabbards, nor Law and Zoro have future sight. Future sight and durability are completely independent stats.
The strongest scabbards - Kyoshiro and sulong Cat/Dog, are below beginning of Wano G4 Luffy. The other scabbards even further below.
Yet they tanked attacks from Kaido..
Law shrugged off a thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido. Half dead Zoro tanked a thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido, and was still conscious.
I assume you'd consider these two characters "YC1" level or around that ballpark, before both of their awakenings.
Yet beginning of Wano G4 Luffy, whose stats scale to Katakuri, got one shot by base Kaido.
Kidd VS BiG Mom 1 Vs 1 was looking UP at first; Same way Luffy vs Kaido during RoofPiece was looking up….
Big Mom proceeded to thrash them until the DOUBLE AWAKENING; Which she heals, trash them again & we get DOUBLE AWAKENING; & Then some more DOUBLE AWAKEING for the Win. Yet Big Mom without the Bombs would have stopped her fall & returned to fight…instead of getting blown up
What? Law and Kid awakened only once the entire fight.
And soon after, BM was forced to go beyond her limits in a way she wasn't forced for decades.
Without the bombs, debatable. As we saw, Kid and Law prepared to fight once they though Luffy was out.
They were injured and exhausted, but I'm pretty sure that they would've continued if BM came back instead of falling to the ditch.
Regardless, I hope we're on the same page that Kid + Law vs BM was already an extreme diff, with everything that happened until that point.
At this point, Kid can definitely replicate what Luffy did alone against Kaido in chapter 1010. That is, give a mid diff
Law, yeah. He needs more openings to be effective, unlike Kid.
Regardless, considering we saw him tank thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido without much issues, he too can last quite a while as well.
And again, I never claimed that Law or Kid can 1v1 a Yonko.
I said, collectively, i.e as a 2v1, they are Yonko tier for sure. Demonstrably so.
Anyway, if you believe that there was no inconsistency with how base Kaido one shotted beginning of Wano G4 Luffy.
Then Katakuri really should be just one shot material for base Kaido. Kaido is much faster, and has access to future sight as well. Future sight won't help Katakuri last here for more than 10 secs
No. Red Scabbards vs Kaido lasted 13 chapters, BM vs Marco was 3 chapters.
Marco has a known HP limit, so it can't be said that he was unharmed. BM, on the other hand, got out of there unscathed, Kaido didn't get out completely unscathed against Scabbards, they have more AP than Marco.
Oda chose to showcase Marco's standout moment against Queen and King. But it's worth remembering he didn't do any damage to King, his blows weren't very relevant to Queen (who visually, had her HP bar practically full before Sanji used IF, had no wounds in Queen's drawing, and Oda didn't fails to show by art how hurt the characters are), King didn't use magma or increased speed, Queen didn't use snake mode or Germa's powers.
Zoro in Ennies Lobby faced Kaku and Jyabura at the same time with Usopp getting in the way.
I'm talking about when Scabbards vs Kaido started in rooftop. Because until then, they weren't really fighting, but just watching around.
It started at the very end of chapter 991. Marco vs BM start at the very beginning of chapter 992
Meaning, they started around the same timeframe.
BM vs Marco ended at chapter 995.
Kaido vs Scabbards ended at chapter 996, with him pummeling everyone down.
So, 3-4 chapters for Marco, 4-5 chapters for Scabbards
Marco came out of the fight unscathed, while Scabbards were done.
Marco then fought King + Queen for a lot of time while spending fire healing up thousands of soldiers. Briefly even fought with Kaido after G4 Luffy went down, until G5 Luffy "revived" himself.
He's still up and running.
Marco didn't damage King and Queen? You should go reread the fight lol.
Obviously he lost in the end, but he did do damage to both of them.
Attack Power : 9/10. Because 10/10 is instant kill attack.
Defense Power : 9/10. He took Big Mom attack many times and still kicking ass. Because 10/10 is seems Kaido equal defense.
Utility : 9/10. His DF has crowd control and great attack power at the same time and he does quite well so far.
I guess he is easily on YC1 level but not enough experience makes him below admiral and Yonko. He got potential in long run.
Future Sight doesn't matter at all here, because we're talking about durability. Neither the scabbards, nor Law and Zoro have future sight. Future sight and durability are completely independent stats.
The strongest scabbards - Kyoshiro and sulong Cat/Dog, are below beginning of Wano G4 Luffy. The other scabbards even further below.
Yet they tanked attacks from Kaido..
Law shrugged off a thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido. Half dead Zoro tanked a thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido, and was still conscious.
I assume you'd consider these two characters "YC1" level or around that ballpark, before both of their awakenings.
Yet beginning of Wano G4 Luffy, whose stats scale to Katakuri, got one shot by base Kaido.
It's a massive inconsistency.
Amongst the three 2nd in commands, whose powers we know of, only Marco + King combo can push a Yonko to an extreme diff fight IMO
And, Marco is someone I consider above King and Katakuri by a decent margin. He's borderline admiral tier.
What? Law and Kid awakened only once the entire fight.
And soon after, BM was forced to go beyond her limits in a way she wasn't forced for decades.
Without the bombs, debatable. As we saw, Kid and Law prepared to fight once they though Luffy was out.
They were injured and exhausted, but I'm pretty sure that they would've continued if BM came back instead of falling to the ditch.
Regardless, I hope we're on the same page that Kid + Law vs BM was already an extreme diff, with everything that happened until that point.
At this point, Kid can definitely replicate what Luffy did alone against Kaido in chapter 1010. That is, give a mid diff
Law, yeah. He needs more openings to be effective, unlike Kid.
Regardless, considering we saw him tank thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido without much issues, he too can last quite a while as well.
And again, I never claimed that Law or Kid can 1v1 a Yonko.
I said, collectively, i.e as a 2v1, they are Yonko tier for sure. Demonstrably so.
Are two YC1s collectively Yonko tier? I doubt it.
??
Not sure what you're saying here.
Anyway, if you believe that there was no inconsistency with how base Kaido one shotted beginning of Wano G4 Luffy.
Then Katakuri really should be just one shot material for base Kaido. Kaido is much faster, and has access to future sight as well. Future sight won't help Katakuri last here for more than 10 secs
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Not true.
I'm talking about when Scabbards vs Kaido started in rooftop. Because until then, they weren't really fighting, but just watching around.
It started at the very end of chapter 991. Marco vs BM start at the very beginning of chapter 992
Meaning, they started around the same timeframe.
BM vs Marco ended at chapter 995.
Kaido vs Scabbards ended at chapter 996, with him pummeling everyone down.
So, 3-4 chapters for Marco, 4-5 chapters for Scabbards
Marco came out of the fight unscathed, while Scabbards were done.
Marco then fought King + Queen for a lot of time while spending fire healing up thousands of soldiers. Briefly even fought with Kaido after G4 Luffy went down, until G5 Luffy "revived" himself.
He's still up and running.
Marco didn't damage King and Queen? You should go reread the fight lol.
Obviously he lost in the end, but he did do damage to both of them.
Luffy got hit with a solid Thunder Bagua; FS on the roof saved him a repeat;
Zoro?? He was done for after that attack ???
Law received a Thunder Bagua on the back end of Zoro getting hit first…=\
That whole stint with Kinemon getting hit and stab is just b.s.
Yes I agree Marco/Law/Kidd/Zoro are more borderline Admirals While they are still within the YC1 tier with Yama, King & Katakuri.
Law/Kidd Yes Awakened Once. They used those abilities 4 times; Everytime in tandem one after the other using teamwork.
My point exactly when Luffy unlocked ACoC he gains a bit of momentum & gets knocked off onigashima…..I Believe Law/Kidd 1 Vs 1 only get that far against a Yonkou.
I'm talking about when Scabbards vs Kaido started in rooftop. Because until then, they weren't really fighting, but just watching around.
It started at the very end of chapter 991. Marco vs BM start at the very beginning of chapter 992
Meaning, they started around the same timeframe.
BM vs Marco ended at chapter 995.
Kaido vs Scabbards ended at chapter 996, with him pummeling everyone down.
So, 3-4 chapters for Marco, 4-5 chapters for Scabbards
Marco came out of the fight unscathed, while Scabbards were done.
But I repeat that he didn't get out of there unscathed, for the reason that there is an HP bar that limits how much he can regenerate.
Marco's power should literally work like a video game. For example, his HP bar is 1,000, attacks take points from your HP depending on their strength level. It's not those numbers, but the exact same mechanics.
And he has lower attack potency than Scabbards. It's not like he's stronger than all of them put together.
then fought King + Queen for a lot of time while spending fire healing up thousands of soldiers. Briefly even fought with Kaido after G4 Luffy went down, until G5 Luffy "revived" himself.
He's still up and running.
Marco didn't damage King and Queen? You should go reread the fight lol.
Obviously he lost in the end, but he did do damage to both of them.
It didn't.King was in his defense mode. Marco was only able to push him, which is an obvious effect for characters with a lot of physical strength, but pushing him away/knocking down doesn't mean he dealt damage to characters with powerful defense in One Piece.
Queen for a considerable amount of time was busy doing other things in the fight, like arguing with Chopper and his henchmen. Marco had X1 clashes with King.
We don't know how King would perform using speed and magma mode (this absolutely reduces Marco's HP more than other moves). In addition, King is pretty tough even in his defensive mode as well, as he withstood Zoro's En-Youn Santoryu ACOC hits. As a fighter, Marco has less skill than Katakuri, who has awakening, several Luffy G3/G4 level moves, absurd versatility, FI with Logia body (this is much better than using FI to dodge with the physical body). Anyway, I agree that Marco is more powerful than them in general, but not to the point of being a level above.
2 Marco vs Big Mom, I believe she wouldn't even need to use a year of her life time.
But if Katakuri's stats is 10, Luffy's was 9.5. Luffy was incredibly close to Katakuri in pure stats.
In terms of durability, I'd argue Luffy was even higher. With Katakuri having the edge in every other stat.
If this Luffy can get one shot by base Kaido, so will Katakuri
Ehh, he probably would've tanked considering Law and Zoro can.
And again, future sight and durability are mutually exclusive. It doesn't matter, Luffy not using FS would only serve to even out between himself and others who got hit by Kaido, because none of them have FS
Zoro was already about done by the time he used asura on Kaido.
He had broken bones and exhausted all his stamina.
Still, he took a thunder bagua from HYBID Kaido head on, and was still conscious. While Luffy got one shot and KO'd for many hours.
Law got hit after Zoro?
I don't think that's true. The panels made it seem like Kaido was going after Law first and foremost, and Zoro was only in the way.
Even if you're right, it doesn't matter. Kaido went through a straight line in his blitz, I really doubt Zoro's body which put no resistance did anything to soften up that attack for Law.
I agree that the latter can put up great fights against them, or even beat due to matchups (say Katakuri vs Zoro potentially).
But the "ceiling" of the former is higher. They can put up a much better fight against Yonkos and admirals, in a way that Katakuri and King wouldn't be able to.
Law/Kidd Yes Awakened Once. They used those abilities 4 times; Everytime in tandem one after the other using teamwork.
My point exactly when Luffy unlocked ACoC he gains a bit of momentum & gets knocked off onigashima…..I Believe Law/Kidd 1 Vs 1 only get that far against a Yonkou.
I mean, that's just using awakening in the rest of the fight lol.
They didn't awaken 4 times. Awakened once and just rolled with it.
Yeah, completely agree.
Current Kid (or Zoro/Law for that matters) can replicate what Luffy managed against Kaido, the first time he awakened his conqueror's haki. I'm 100% sure that Katakuri won't be able to replicate it.
Like I said, it's possible that King/Katakuri can give a very tough fight or even beat these characters based on matchups. But their "ceiling" is higher, and by ceiling I'm only referring to their current PL instead of their potential here.
I think the main issue here is that how most fights in OP play out does not benefit kid's fighting style.. visually. The story generally makes the point that world class fighters generally use martial arts, haki and devil fruits. With haki being the core of combat. But with kidd... he doesn't appear to be a martial artists. His attacks almost entirely rely on his devil fruit, not even a combination of his devil fruit and martial arts. Visually kidd's fighting styles resembles rookies rather than world class fighters.
I think the main issue here is that how most fights in OP play out does not benefit kid's fighting style.. visually. The story generally makes the point that world class fighters generally use martial arts, haki and devil fruits. With haki being the core of combat. But with kidd... he doesn't appear to be a martial artists. His attacks almost entirely rely on his devil fruit, not even a combination of his devil fruit and martial arts. Visually kidd's fighting styles resembles rookies rather than world class fighters.
But Imo Kid doesn't have to be a good martial artist like Law himself (closer to being his rival) is. He just needs to increase his stats, master advanced Haoshoku, and MOSTLY: increase Assign's range.
If Assign's range was 50 meters, Kid would have the most broken ability in the manga.
It's almost like Kaidou's level of power is wildly inconsistent depending on how the plot needs to move forward. Tama and Speed encountered Kaidou in an open field what, a day before the raid started at most? And showed up to the battle just fine. The Scabbards hanging on longing than they logically should have can be chalked up to SAMURAI GRIT more than anything.
But Imo Kid doesn't have to be a good martial artist like Law himself (closer to being his rival) is. He just needs to increase his stats, master advanced Haoshoku, and MOSTLY: increase Assign's range.
Law is a good martial artist?? All of his attacks rely entirely on his DF just like Kidd. If anything Kidd was a disappointment because Oda went out of his way to tell the reader he has CoC and he didn't use it at all, but Zoro used his without even knowing he had it.
Law is a good martial artist?? All of his attacks rely entirely on his DF just like Kidd. If anything Kidd was a disappointment because Oda went out of his way to tell the reader he has CoC and he didn't use it at all, but Zoro used his without even knowing he had it.
Martial artist does not depend on stats or Haki, just have a good style and fighting techniques. Law has been trained in all the arts and is a good swordsman. By the stats point, he cut BM's Stand with only fencing technique.
Kid has never been seen physically dodging a punch or throwing a normal punch. Not even Haki have we seen him use. The guy is a walking Devil Fruit with a lot of resistance.
Martial artist does not depend on stats or Haki, just have a good style and fighting techniques. Law has been trained in all the arts and is a good swordsman. By the stats point, he cut BM's Stand with only fencing technique.
Kid has never been seen physically dodging a punch or throwing a normal punch. Not even Haki have we seen him use. The guy is a walking Devil Fruit with a lot of resistance.
When did Law use a slash that didn't have to do with the Ope Ope? When has Law dodged that wasn't him using the Ope Ope? Yeah he was trained by the Donquixote family but I'm genuinely curious if we ever see him use any attack or defense that doesn't have to do with his fruit.
It's almost like Kaidou's level of power is wildly inconsistent depending on how the plot needs to move forward. Tama and Speed encountered Kaidou in an open field what, a day before the raid started at most? And showed up to the battle just fine. The Scabbards hanging on longing than they logically should have can be chalked up to SAMURAI GRIT more than anything.
This is exactly my point if you read the thread.
This arc probably is the least inconsistent when it comes to PL.
I'd argue Scabbards hanging on for long is somewhat consistent. The outlier to me, is Luffy getting one shot in beginning of Wano. Cause, people have been tanking attacks from Kaido left and right once the raid started.
The Tama and speed thing was, plainly put, disgusting.
This is exactly my point if you read the thread.
This arc probably is the least inconsistent when it comes to PL.
I'd argue Scabbards hanging on for long is somewhat consistent. The outlier to me, is Luffy getting one shot in beginning of Wano. Cause, people have been tanking attacks from Kaido left and right once the raid started.
The Tama and speed thing was, plainly put, disgusting.
I’ve always said it , luffy getting one shot by kaido was Oda exaggerating to hype up kaido , it should have been a brutal barrage ( like 6-10 hits ) tbat caught luffy off guard , luffy was already yc1 level and I am sorry but I don’t think kaido was gonna one shot any of the other YC1
To me Kidd is weak given that he is a top 3 SN captain, and he talks too much. At this current point of the storyline, I’m expecting him to be using CoA with his ‘punk’ attacks at bare minimum. But so far, he isn’t doing that. His attacks are just like pre-TS Luffy, purely df based.
He has CoC but does he even know how to use it? He could just be like pre-TS Luffy again, using it unknowingly. On the rooftop he looked less impressive than Killer and may not even have done damage to Kaido.
Another point to consider is his battleground and environment. What if there is no/are few metals around? What is he going to do and form? What if he fights someone like King or Akainu who can melt all his metal. What is he going to do? If he can infused them with CoA and protect it, good for him. But he hasn’t showed it yet.
Also, the time taken to form his ‘weapons’. He was quite lucky that he was fighting BM tgt with Law. He had the time to form his weapons while Law handled BM. But then again, after hitting BM with his trump card the Railgun, BM said it ‘tickled’ while she commented that Law’s attacks were dangerous. It’s like as if Oda was 5h1tting on Kidd. Maybe cause there are op fans around who said Kidd is the new WB or Shiki which he is clearly not.
Kidd needs to show haki mastery to be placed higher in my chart. As of now he is far below Luffy, definitely below Zoro and Law, and maybe below Sanji.
In terms of feats he would be below Katakuri and Doffy. But in terms of plot and storyline wise, he should be stronger than them.
If anyone wants to rebut me after reading this, don’t bother. Just move on.
