Evolution of power hexagram

Demonspeed

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I don't even think Togashi is the one who made this. This is not reliable. If Gon is 5 Killua should be 5 too. I don't see Netero has someone aprticualrly talented as well.
 

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I don't even think Togashi is the one who made this. This is not reliable. If Gon is 5 Killua should be 5 too. I don't see Netero has someone aprticualrly talented as well.
He must have been surely, no one rises to such power without first having talent. It may be because his old, but his talent in his youth probably equalled that of Gon and Killua.
 

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He must have been surely, no one rises to such power without first having talent. It may be because his old, but his talent in his youth probably equalled that of Gon and Killua.
I am not saying that Hisoka can't be that talented. I am saying that overall the stats are not reliable.
 

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Those sourcebook are likely approved by the author but I doubt Togashi gave too much thought about it. There's all sorts of hilarious conclusions you get out of it, like Zushi can beat Zazan or something equally outrageous.

The translation kind of messed some of nuances of the ranking. Hisoka had 5 in what should be described as a combination of unpredictability and adaptability which if I recall is the only category he beats Chrollo on, and that actually makes a lot of sense. It's basically a rating for how well each character to do when they're fighting in an unexpected situation and is quite consistent with how Hisoka is portrayed. Killua would be expected to be pretty bad at this category.
 

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I was referring to Netero.
My bad, no I don't think Netero was that talented. His backstory shows that his strength is mainly due to his dedication and it's very unlikely that he was a Nen user or had an ability back then. Hyakushiki Kannon is a good ability but Netero's greatest strength is the speed of his prayers, which is something he acquired because of his intensive training in the mountains, this is not something he got with talent. It's not been implied that Netero was particularly talented. He just trained hard and became that strong.
 

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My bad, no I don't think Netero was that talented. His backstory shows that his strength is mainly due to his dedication and it's very unlikely that he was a Nen user or had an ability back then. Hyakushiki Kannon is a good ability but Netero's greatest strength is the speed of his prayers, which is something he acquired because of his intensive training in the mountains, this is not something he got with talent. It's not been implied that Netero was particularly talented. He just trained hard and became that strong.
I am not sure we can say kannon is something he acquired with work either though. As far as we saw netero wasn't even actually training, he was simply grateful to martial arts and decided to pray-punch in appreciation. Kannon as far as we know is not something he actually worked for intentionally, it is just something that happened, a random aspect of nen even. That does not necessarily imply talent either but if its random I wouldn't call it hard work either.

Where is this information?
 

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I am not sure we can say kannon is something he acquired with work either though. As far as we saw netero wasn't even actually training, he was simply grateful to martial arts and decided to pray-punch in appreciation. Kannon as far as we know is not something he actually worked for intentionally, it is just something that happened, a random aspect of nen even. That does not necessarily imply talent either but if its random I wouldn't call it hard work either.

Where is this information?

We don't know when he created Kannon, but considering his backstory I don't think he was a Nen user when he was in the mountains. He prayed, punched and reached that incredible speed. Then he learned Nen later and developed Hyakushiki Kannon as his Hatsu, that's my guess. We have not seen him use Nen even once in the flashbacks, he was facing a challenger and beat him with his punch, he must have.

What information?
 

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Ingenuity is a better translation of that rating as opposed to talent. Netero's techniques are quite straightforward and since he's never fought anyone stronger than him until Meruem, it'd be pretty hard for him to be good at that category. The overall ratings are kind of nonsensical and mostly just something to help sell sourcebooks but I think it's reasonably accurate at capturing which characters can react spontaneously (Hisoka, Gon, etc) versus ones that can plan well (Chrollo) and distinguish the fact that those two aren't the same thing.
 

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We don't know when he created Kannon, but considering his backstory I don't think he was a Nen user when he was in the mountains. He prayed, punched and reached that incredible speed. Then he learned Nen later and developed Hyakushiki Kannon as his Hatsu, that's my guess. We have not seen him use Nen even once in the flashbacks, he was facing a challenger and beat him with his punch, he must have.

What information?
About netero not being talented to begin with. By whatever metric what would make sense is that netero would be insanely talented to begin with.

As for netero not being a nen user when he started his mountain training... that does not make a shred of a speck of sense. The implication in the manga is that by the time he got to the mountain he was already a proficient martial artist, which in this context implies being proficient at nen. What you are suggesting would imply netero, without ever actually training nen, did his thing at the mountain and somehow became the greatest human nen user by far by the time he came down. Also worth noting, what you are suggesting would also prove that netero had more than absurd talent for nen. The implication would be that he mastered nen entirely by accident. Which would be pretty solid evidence that netero has enough talent to put gon and killua to shame.... The most likely scenario is that by the time netero started his mountain training he was effectively a high level nen user.
 

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About netero not being talented to begin with. By whatever metric what would make sense is that netero would be insanely talented to begin with.
And why? It's been clearly established that his greatest strength, his incredible hand motions, are the result of his intensive and abnormal dedication to his 10000 punches and prayers. You don't have to be talented to do that, what you need is to be extremely dedicated. Meruem even qualified his training of crazy. Netero's hand motions when he is praying to activate HK are the only moves outspeeding by far even Meruem and his Royal Guards.






As for netero not being a nen user when he started his mountain training... that does not make a shred of a speck of sense. The implication in the manga is that by the time he got to the mountain he was already a proficient martial artist, which in this context implies being proficient at nen. What you are suggesting would imply netero, without ever actually training nen, did his thing at the mountain and somehow became the greatest human nen user by far by the time he came down. Also worth noting, what you are suggesting would also prove that netero had more than absurd talent for nen. The implication would be that he mastered nen entirely by accident. Which would be pretty solid evidence that netero has enough talent to put gon and killua to shame.... The most likely scenario is that by the time netero started his mountain training he was effectively a high level nen user.
I reread the chapters and I was wrong, he was a Nen user, you can clearly see Aura surrounding him during his training.






But it doesn't really invalidate the main idea. Netero had no Nen ability when he was training there(at least at the beginning, he probably refined his Hatsu at the end of the 4 years), he having Hyakushiki Kannon back then would be illogical because it'd mean he had created a very inefficient technique for his previous battles, considering his initial speed when he started(5 or 6 seconds for one attack)






He truly became a monster after his 4 years training.






So basically what I am saying is that:
  1. Netero had no Hatsu at 46.
  2. He refined at some point after his intensive training, before descending the mountain(very likely) or soon after his descent.
  3. He has never been called gifted and it's not necessary to be gifted to do what he did. His insane speed is the result of insane training and dedication. Those are the fruits of his hard work.

It's never been said that he was the strongest by far back then too. He was a member of the Seirin Group which has been mentioned as a group of very powerful Hunters. Zeno also said he is the only one who fought Maha Zoldyck and lived. It doesn't say who was stronger, just that he lived (it implies that Maha was stronger IMO).
 

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As far as we know netero was an enhancer (according to the databooks and whatnot at least). He does not really need a hatsu in the strict sense of the word as basic techniques do the job. I doubt he did anything other than praying and punching during his time at the mountains. The point was made that he made solely that for 10 years. Which would have the logical implication that he did not train nen itself during that time.

The way talent has been portrayed in the manga is that talent merely allows people to learn things faster. Gon and killua are pretty talented but we have seen them being hard at training for months at a time. With that in mind, nothing we have seen about netero implies he was't insanely talented.
 

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I think the words talent and potential in this conversation are interchangeable.

But i disagree at the notion that netero is not talented or that talented. To be the strongest at some point, even with insane training implies you have at least more talent than the usual talented. Zushi is talented according to Wing and spends so much time training, and it can only can him as far. It's because that's his more or less potential
 

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As far as we know netero was an enhancer (according to the databooks and whatnot at least). He does not really need a hatsu in the strict sense of the word as basic techniques do the job. I doubt he did anything other than praying and punching during his time at the mountains. The point was made that he made solely that for 10 years. Which would have the logical implication that he did not train nen itself during that time.
It's not 10 years, it's 4. Netero started this at 46, when he descended he was 50, and he died at the age of 110. And he went to the DC at 50 too, two other pics confirm that, because of what Mizai said and the picture when he looks exactly like his 50 years old self.






Meruem estimated that it took him 5 or 10 years, but it took him 4. The pic is in my post above as well. I am still not sold on Netero being an Enhancer with such a Hatsu. Hyakushiki Kannon is clearly emitted and his ultimate attack is an Emission attack as well. He being an Emitter fits perfectly considering his abilities.

Hyakushiki Kannon is emitted, the attacks can be strengthened with Aura, a prayer + different hand motions for the palm attacks and Manipulation skills are needed to move it when he is not attacking. An Enhancer can master Emission at 80% and Manipulation at 60% while an Emitter can master Enhancement and Manipulation at 80%, it's perfect, like Gon and his Jajanken(Transmutation and Emission at 80%). There are some mistakes in the databook so I prefer to think it's one until his Nen category gets revealed in the story somehow.

The way talent has been portrayed in the manga is that talent merely allows people to learn things faster. Gon and killua are pretty talented but we have seen them being hard at training for months at a time. With that in mind, nothing we have seen about netero implies he was't insanely talented.
I would not say it's just that, but nothing implies that Netero is talented as well, it's his dedication which is praised, not his talent, he became that strong because of that. He was simply throwing punches and praying, but he did it to an extent no one else could. It's different from the training methods of Gon and Killua. It leads me to think that he was an average person who reached that level through his insane hard work, and it's much better like that IMO.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
I think the words talent and potential in this conversation are interchangeable.

But i disagree at the notion that netero is not talented or that talented. To be the strongest at some point, even with insane training implies you have at least more talent than the usual talented. Zushi is talented according to Wing and spends so much time training, and it can only can him as far. It's because that's his more or less potential
No one had a training regimen as hard and insane as Netero's though. At least no one we know so far. Disregarding his talent, Netero's strength is the result of his hard work. Gon and Killua are more talented than Zushi but none of the three have reached their limits, last time we saw him he had not even developed his Nen ability. It's not like he is unable to catch up to them.
 

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It's not 10 years, it's 4. Netero started this at 46, when he descended he was 50, and he died at the age of 110. And he went to the DC at 50 too, two other pics confirm that, because of what Mizai said and the picture when he looks exactly like his 50 years old self.


Meruem estimated that it took him 5 or 10 years, but it took him 4. The pic is in my post above as well. I am still not sold on Netero being an Enhancer with such a Hatsu. Hyakushiki Kannon is clearly emitted and his ultimate attack is an Emission attack as well. He being an Emitter fits perfectly considering his abilities.

Hyakushiki Kannon is emitted, the attacks can be strengthened with Aura, a prayer + different hand motions for the palm attacks and Manipulation skills are needed to move it when he is not attacking. An Enhancer can master Emission at 80% and Manipulation at 60% while an Emitter can master Enhancement and Manipulation at 80%, it's perfect, like Gon and his Jajanken(Transmutation and Emission at 80%). There are some mistakes in the databook so I prefer to think it's one until his Nen category gets revealed in the story somehow.



I would not say it's just that, but nothing implies that Netero is talented as well, it's his dedication which is praised, not his talent, he became that strong because of that. He was simply throwing punches and praying, but he did it to an extent no one else could. It's different from the training methods of Gon and Killua. It leads me to think that he was an average person who reached that level through his insane hard work, and it's much better like that IMO.
Ok, it was 4 years then... But wouldn't that add to him somehow being a genius? I am not questioning netero being dedicated. But so are gon and killua even with all their talent and whatnot. Overall the most likely scenario is that the most powerful nen around would be the one who had the greatest aptitude for it (talent) and worked insanely hard at it as well.

Well, to be fair netero's nen does not quite fit the description of an emitter either. There is a limit to how much someone can emit. As far as we have seen the limit is basically the extent of a ken. Which would mean kannon logically can only be as strong as netero's ken. Does it make sense kannon was merely that strong? We know for a fact that even the royals vastly outclassed netero in terms of sheer amount of aura. Would something a human can emit like that be able to withstand the full force of a royal or the king? Of course, there are emitted things which are indestructible but they usually have limitations and rules which strengthen them. Netero was presumably a powerful nen user by the time he started his mountain training but in turn his nen seems to have appeared during his years at the mountains. Does it make sense he wouldn't have a hatsu decades before he even started his mountain training? Enhancers don't have a need for hatsu, they use simple techniques to maximum efficiency. With that in mind netero being an enhancer makes sense. He went with basic techniques until his mountain training got him his new special hatsu. I am of the idea that netero is one of those rare cases that "becomes" specialization.
 

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Netero's power is a representation of absolute strength, and it actually has very little to do with talent and certainly not creativity. In Ubogin's profile it says his ultimate goal is that he can punch with the power of a small nuke. If he can reach that state he'd be invincible too, and the point is that you can't just train yourself to the point where you can punch like that because that's where human limitation sets in. However, in the case of Netero, though, he has trained himself to the point where he has broken the scale on speed. When you're that far ahead in overall stats, there's no possible way to defend against it. It took another guy who broke the scale on strength and intelligence to beat his speed, and either of those two are just as absolute as speed. At that point it gets stupid because suppose 'punch like a nuke' Ubogin faced off against Netero, all Ubogin has to do is punch the ground and then Netero would die from the collateral damage, unless Netero is so fast that he can dodge a nuke, but then Ubogin just needs to train himself to punch like a bigger nuke, and so on. The absolute strength characters are actually pretty boring to talk about because it's really just a pure raw number thing and Hatsus don't even matter when you hit that point. Note that Netero's Hatsu is just a way to replicate his absolute power in his prime. We see in his prime all he did was punch really hard and really fast. When he's old, his Hatsu is way of trying to replicate that feat now that his physical body has declined.
 

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Ok, it was 4 years then... But wouldn't that add to him somehow being a genius? I am not questioning netero being dedicated. But so are gon and killua even with all their talent and whatnot. Overall the most likely scenario is that the most powerful nen around would be the one who had the greatest aptitude for it (talent) and worked insanely hard at it as well.

Well, to be fair netero's nen does not quite fit the description of an emitter either. There is a limit to how much someone can emit. As far as we have seen the limit is basically the extent of a ken. Which would mean kannon logically can only be as strong as netero's ken. Does it make sense kannon was merely that strong? We know for a fact that even the royals vastly outclassed netero in terms of sheer amount of aura. Would something a human can emit like that be able to withstand the full force of a royal or the king? Of course, there are emitted things which are indestructible but they usually have limitations and rules which strengthen them. Netero was presumably a powerful nen user by the time he started his mountain training but in turn his nen seems to have appeared during his years at the mountains. Does it make sense he wouldn't have a hatsu decades before he even started his mountain training? Enhancers don't have a need for hatsu, they use simple techniques to maximum efficiency. With that in mind netero being an enhancer makes sense. He went with basic techniques until his mountain training got him his new special hatsu. I am of the idea that netero is one of those rare cases that "becomes" specialization.
Yes, Netero is a genius of hard work :p. Gon and Killua are dedicated but their training is nowhere close to the level of what Netero did. I have practiced martial arts before, and I can't imagine anyone doing nothing but punching 10000 rimes and praying for hours every day like a machine. That's insane.

Disregarding efficiency in combat, after learning the four principles, you just need to repeat the basics every day to strengthen your Aura. Even without an ability you'll get better, that's why Tsezguerra was not doing too well in the dodge ball game compared to Gon and Killua even though he was stronger, he neglected the basics. Gon getting better because of his attention to the basics was pointed out by Biscuit once or twice during some of their training sessions as well.In terms of pure talent, from what we know, Gon, Killua and Ging are the most gifted, but it's no one can match Ging, because other variables exist.

Has Emission be described like that? They are pure Aura so the power depends of your own Aura, and they shape it for their ability. Taking Razor as an example, his internal Aura is weaker when he is projecting his Devils. It would be the same for Netero, it'd mean that when he is projecting Kannon his body has no Aura protecting him. When he is using Zero, where he concentrates absolutely all his Aura into a beam, there is no Aura surrounding his body, everything comes outs from Kannon.

You are confusing Emission with Conjuration, Emitted things are pure Aura while conjured things become real hence can be seen even by normal people.If someone breaks a conjured item, the item will stay broken forever no matter how the user materializes and dematerializes it. But something emitted, even if it's broken can be emitted again in perfect condition as long as the Emitter has enough mental strength. That's why Goreinu was unable to emit his Nen gorillas after being afraid by Razor. But a veteraan top fighter like Netero would have no problem with it. Everyone don't learn Nen at the same age, Biscuit started at 17 and older characters like Hanzo started to learn it after the exam.Netero must have learned Nen at an advanced age and created Kannon at the conclusion of his mountain training because 5 or 6 seconds for a palm attack would be too inefficient in combat.
 

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Yes, Netero is a genius of hard work :p. Gon and Killua are dedicated but their training is nowhere close to the level of what Netero did. I have practiced martial arts before, and I can't imagine anyone doing nothing but punching 10000 rimes and praying for hours every day like a machine. That's insane.

Disregarding efficiency in combat, after learning the four principles, you just need to repeat the basics every day to strengthen your Aura. Even without an ability you'll get better, that's why Tsezguerra was not doing too well in the dodge ball game compared to Gon and Killua even though he was stronger, he neglected the basics. Gon getting better because of his attention to the basics was pointed out by Biscuit once or twice during some of their training sessions as well.In terms of pure talent, from what we know, Gon, Killua and Ging are the most gifted, but it's no one can match Ging, because other variables exist.

Has Emission be described like that? They are pure Aura so the power depends of your own Aura, and they shape it for their ability. Taking Razor as an example, his internal Aura is weaker when he is projecting his Devils. It would be the same for Netero, it'd mean that when he is projecting Kannon his body has no Aura protecting him. When he is using Zero, where he concentrates absolutely all his Aura into a beam, there is no Aura surrounding his body, everything comes outs from Kannon.

You are confusing Emission with Conjuration, Emitted things are pure Aura while conjured things become real hence can be seen even by normal people.If someone breaks a conjured item, the item will stay broken forever no matter how the user materializes and dematerializes it. But something emitted, even if it's broken can be emitted again in perfect condition as long as the Emitter has enough mental strength. That's why Goreinu was unable to emit his Nen gorillas after being afraid by Razor. But a veteraan top fighter like Netero would have no problem with it. Everyone don't learn Nen at the same age, Biscuit started at 17 and older characters like Hanzo started to learn it after the exam.Netero must have learned Nen at an advanced age and created Kannon at the conclusion of his mountain training because 5 or 6 seconds for a palm attack would be too inefficient in combat.
I am not confusing the nen types. The amount of aura someone can project being limited to the max aura someone can project at a time is a fact. So how exactly does it make sense that netero would be able to conjure that without it being so vulnerable to attack? Realistically speaking the royals or the king should more than be able to attack with enough power to target a normal nen construct and as far as we know there isn't anything that makes kannon invulnerable like knuckle's nen. It would be more like the nen devils or the gorillas.... Something which the royals or the king should be more than able to destroy. Factor in netero potentially being an enhancer and the whole thing makes even less sense as every nen involved in making that thing is unrelated to enhancement altogether. Ultimately kannon does not behave like any specific nen category. Considering its origins, it makes way more sense that it is an specialization than any one nen category (even ignoring netero being an enhancer).
 

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I am not confusing the nen types. The amount of aura someone can project being limited to the max aura someone can project at a time is a fact. So how exactly does it make sense that netero would be able to conjure that without it being so vulnerable to attack? Realistically speaking the royals or the king should more than be able to attack with enough power to target a normal nen construct and as far as we know there isn't anything that makes kannon invulnerable like knuckle's nen. It would be more like the nen devils or the gorillas.... Something which the royals or the king should be more than able to destroy. Factor in netero potentially being an enhancer and the whole thing makes even less sense as every nen involved in making that thing is unrelated to enhancement altogether. Ultimately kannon does not behave like any specific nen category. Considering its origins, it makes way more sense that it is an specialization than any one nen category (even ignoring netero being an enhancer).
The statue isn't immune to attack. The second time Netero tried to use it you see the statue try to squash Meruem with two hands and Meruem simply ripped it apart to counter the attack. In the actual fight, Meruem chose not to destroy the object because he wanted to make Netero submit so he can't just use brute force to beat the technique. I mean, Netero wasn't exactly shocked that Zero Hand effectively did no damage to Meruem. He knows there's a huge physical difference between the two and so does Meruem. So if Meruem countered his technique with brute force, that's not enough to get him to submit. He has to counter Netero's technique with another technique because it's a given that he's more than strong enough to counter the move by brute force. That's why Meruem talks about how making him submit is like playing without Shogi while down 3 pieces, because he can't just beat him using his normal method (overwhelmingly brute strength) that he'd use if this was a fight to the death.

That said, Royal Guards and Meruem are nothing like the human opponent Netero is used to fight. One would assume a human opponent cannot just trivially destroy the statue, nor can they just simply shrug off a hit like it's nothing so these weaknesses aren't easily exploitable against a human.
 

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And even if he were to destroy it, Netero would just project it again.
 
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