Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Arjuna]

Yup exactly base gray isn't even close to be on base natsu's levei..especially with fdk spells..saying otherwise is just dumb
Base natsu>>>base gray
Base natsu= des gray
Fdkm natsu>Des gray
Fdkm natsu ? Gray ace in the hole ?

Add DF Natsu in this.It will not be exaggeration to say that DF Natsu is the strongest fighter on Ishgar side.

 

[Ice devil slayer]

Add DF Natsu in this.It will not be exaggeration to say that DF Natsu is the strongest fighter on Ishgar side.

I yeah i forgot df natsu but i think fdkm natsu wouldn't be far from df natsu no ?
He can easily be the strongest of ishgar..

 

[Arjuna]

I yeah i forgot df natsu but i think fdkm natsu wouldn't be far from df natsu no ?
He can easily be the strongest of ishgar..

DF is stated to be the highest form a Dragon Slayer can achieve.So i think it should be fairly stronger than FDKM.

 

[The President]

@Axiomus

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but the fact that Gray did not use what ever his supposed trump card is is in-itself evidence that he did not go all out against Ur. That's assuming you are arguing that Gray did not go all-out against Ur. I would think its reasonable to assume that the magic Gray used against Ajeel was greater then what he used against Ur tbh.

@Char

I kinda lost track of the debate so lets agree to disagree.

Gajeel needed help from Levy (fodder).

Levy is not fodder. She is extremely versatile and can be useful in a number of situations as support, you just won't see her fighting 1 Vs 1s because her physical stats are presumably not that high (presumably). In anycase I agree with your main argument, base Gajeel is inferior to base Bradman as far as physical stats go.

 

[Axiomus]

@Axiomus

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but the fact that Gray did not use what ever his supposed trump card is is in-itself evidence that he did not go all out against Ur. That's assuming you are arguing that Gray did not go all-out against Ur. I would think its reasonable to assume that the magic Gray used against Ajeel was greater then what he used against Ur tbh.

I never said Gray went all out against Ur. I said that he didn't hold back immensely against Ur. Gray mid-diffed Ur. I think that is reasonable. Nobody looking at the fight should come to the conclusion that Gray went balls to the walls fighting Ur. Nobody looking at the fight should come to the conclusion that Gray walked all over Ur either. Medium difficulty is what we use to describe a fight in which a moderate amount of effort was put in.

This is Gray's Ice Geyser vs Ur's Ice Volcano.

Spoiler

Now, I'm not saying Ice Geyser was Gray going all out, but it does mean that Gray couldn't just overpower Ur's attacks casually. Compare this to Natsu's random punch vs Bluenote's attempts to crush him with gravity:

Spoiler

Keep in mind that these are the type of things Bluenote's gravity is capable of.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Gray's Ice-Make: Silver are comparable to Natsu's normal fire dragon attacks.

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[The President]

I never said Gray went all out against Ur. I said that he didn't hold back immensely against Ur. Gray mid-diffed Ur. I think that is reasonable. Nobody looking at the fight should come to the conclusion that Gray went balls to the walls fighting Ur. Nobody looking at the fight should come to the conclusion that Gray walked all over Ur either. Medium difficulty is what we use to describe a fight in which a moderate amount of effort was put in.

This is Gray's Ice Geyser vs Ur's Ice Volcano.

Spoiler

Now, I'm not saying Ice Geyser was Gray going all out, but it does mean that Gray couldn't just overpower Ur's attacks casually. Compare this to Natsu's random punch vs Bluenote's attempts to crush him with gravity:

Spoiler

Keep in mind that these are the type of things Bluenote's gravity is capable of.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Gray's Ice-Make: Silver are comparable to Natsu's normal fire dragon attacks.

Spoiler

Spoiler

That's fair, if it comes down to a base Gray Vs Ur I could see it going either way, leaning towards Gray. With partial transformation and (what I am assuming) full transformation things go differently though.

 

[Char]

It is still hard for me to understand that some people consider Base Gray Ur's equal or even slightly superior based on feats, when they were spamming casual attacks and Ur's were all superior to Gray's. And based on that difference during the battle, Ur claimed they were a long way to go before they could reach her level :S

Ur has always been Wizard Saint tier and, although this title (as almost any title Mashima has invented) has lost most of its credibility, the portrayal of Wizard Saints was always great. For example, Mira (or Erza, I don't remember) once argued it would take the both of them to beat Jura, and even then, it wasn't clear if they'd take the win. If Ur was on Jura's level that means Ur equals to GMG Mira and GMG Erza so saying current base Gray could beat her is well, a bit exaggerated IMO. But I'm fine with it, maybe you're right, it's just that I see differently.

BTW: If you take a close look at the image, base Natsu's attack's reach is probably greater than DeS Gray's :O (not implying anything, just saying).

 

[The President]

They were getting tossed around but Lyon was unquestionably not at his mental peak (mentality impacts performance) and Gray was trying to get Lyon back on track, I'd argue his performance was not at its best as a result as well. This is kinda supported by the fact that they did end up defeating Ur with base abilities and with strength to spare hence the belief that base Gray and Lyon are around as strong as Ur (individually).

 

[Arjuna]

Surely Gray was holding back but i don't support the idea that Gray was using just a fraction of his power.

It is still hard for me to understand that some people consider Base Gray Ur's equal or even slightly superior based on feats, when they were spamming casual attacks and Ur's were all superior to Gray's. And based on that difference during the battle, Ur claimed they were a long way to go before they could reach her level :S

Ur has always been Wizard Saint tier and, although this title (as almost any title Mashima has invented) has lost most of its credibility, the portrayal of Wizard Saints was always great. For example, Mira (or Erza, I don't remember) once argued it would take the both of them to beat Jura, and even then, it wasn't clear if they'd take the win. If Ur was on Jura's level that means Ur equals to GMG Mira and GMG Erza so saying current base Gray could beat her is well, a bit exaggerated IMO. But I'm fine with it, maybe you're right, it's just that I see differently.

BTW: If you take a close look at the image, base Natsu's attack's reach is probably greater than DeS Gray's :O (not implying anything, just saying).

Ul was low tier Wizard Saint level mage.She was shocked by the power of Gildarts and the easiness with which he destroyed a monster.Gray himself said Makarov was stronger than her and that means GMG Jura and Bluenote are stronger than her as they are all Mid tier Wizard Saint level mages.

 

[Boomburst]

They were getting tossed around but Lyon was unquestionably not at his mental peak (mentality impacts performance) and Gray was trying to get Lyon back on track, I'd argue his performance was not at its best as a result as well. This is kinda supported by the fact that they did end up defeating Ur with base abilities and with strength to spare hence the belief that base Gray and Lyon are around as strong as Ur (individually).

I personally think the purpose of the fight between Gray/Lyon and Ur was so that Lyon could finally come to terms with Ur's death and so he could be relieved of some emotional baggage, not that Lyon and Gray have surpassed Ur. I think the fight was supposed to be more of an emotional and mental victory for Gray and Lyon rather than a physical one, hence why Hiro didn't show Ur getting defeated. Ur getting defeated or not (I still think they couldn't beat her, we have no evidence that she was actually defeated) doesn't really matter here because the real success was that Lyon could finally start moving forward, not that they could surpass Ur.

 

[Ice devil slayer]

I think we should wait to talk about gray powers he hasn't been on a serious battle yet..once he fights invel we will talk about his powers again..

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I agree with Escanors Pride. The fight was a combination of both physical and mental performance. Gray and Lyon are at least on Ur's level (Low-Wizard Saint Tier) individually. Lyon was obviously impacted psychologically so the main purpose for this fight was for Gray to help him overcome his emotions, which he had already done himself. This is seen in the following panels.

Spoiler

In a way, Hiro Mashima portrayed the difficulty of this fight the same as every other character who went against their Historia. It really just depends on how you define the difficulty of the fight. But it should be consistent for all the fights. Meaning if you rate Gray + Lyon's fight a certain difficulty, it should be the same with Erza + Wendy + Juvia + Meredy + Laxus. There are subtle differences that I will explain though.

Spoiler

In my opinion, they were all able to defeat the Pre-Timeskip characters quite easily. The fact that it only took one combined spell to take down Ur, I would place the difficulty of this fight at Low-Difficulty. It is true they took some damage but that was mainly to show Lyon overcoming his emotions. Gray was restricted because of Lyon. Similarly, Jellal was restricted because of Kagura.

Laxus, Erza, and Wendy seemingly defeated their opponents pretty easily despite being injured beforehand. But they didn't have any emotional attachment with their Historias, so that would change the dynamics of the two situations immensely.

How about Meredy and Juvia? I would say their situation is the most similar to Gray and Lyon. Again, I rate this a Low-Difficulty fight. Note that they have the same amount of scratches as Gray + Lyon. So are there any differences? Yes. Neither of them had attachments to their Historia. Meredy and Juvia struggled because they aren't as strong as Gray + Lyon. Gray and Lyon struggled because they have emotional attachments to their Historia while Meredy + Juvia didn't.

So to sum up the power ranking. Lyon has no other power-ups and since Gray convinced him to go all out against Ur (to surpass her), whatever he displayed here is a good indication of where he is which is around Pre-Timeskip Ur's level (Not something to underestimate). Gray, on the other hand, wasn't using full power and he didn't even use DeS mode so that would place him well above Erza (Jura's Level or Mid-Tier Wizard Saint).

 

[Boomburst]

I agree with Escanors Pride. The fight was a combination of both physical and mental performance. Gray and Lyon are at least on Ur's level (Low-Wizard Saint Tier) individually. Lyon was obviously impacted psychologically so the main purpose for this fight was for Gray to help him overcome his emotions, which he had already done himself. This is seen in the following panels.

Spoiler

In a way, Hiro Mashima portrayed the difficulty of this fight the same as every other character who went against their Historia. It really just depends on how you define the difficulty of the fight. But it should be consistent for all the fights. Meaning if you rate Gray + Lyon's fight a certain difficulty, it should be the same with Erza + Wendy + Juvia + Meredy + Laxus. There are subtle differences that I will explain though.

Spoiler

In my opinion, they were all able to defeat the Pre-Timeskip characters quite easily. The fact that it only took one combined spell to take down Ur, I would place the difficulty of this fight at Low-Difficulty. It is true they took some damage but that was mainly to show Lyon overcoming his emotions. Gray was restricted because of Lyon. Similarly, Jellal was restricted because of Kagura.

Laxus, Erza, and Wendy seemingly defeated their opponents pretty easily despite being injured beforehand. But they didn't have any emotional attachment with their Historias, so that would change the dynamics of the two situations immensely.

How about Meredy and Juvia? I would say their situation is the most similar to Gray and Lyon. Again, I rate this a Low-Difficulty fight. Note that they have the same amount of scratches as Gray + Lyon. So are there any differences? Yes. Neither of them had attachments to their Historia. Meredy and Juvia struggled because they aren't as strong as Gray + Lyon. Gray and Lyon struggled because they have emotional attachments to their Historia while Meredy + Juvia didn't.

So to sum up the power ranking. Lyon has no other power-ups and since Gray convinced him to go all out against Ur (to surpass her), whatever he displayed here is a good indication of where he is which is around Pre-Timeskip Ur's level (Not something to underestimate). Gray, on the other hand, wasn't using full power and he didn't even use DeS mode so that would place him well above Erza (Jura's Level or Mid-Tier Wizard Saint).

Here's the problem though. We have no proof that Gray and Lyon were even able to take down Ur at all. The last thing we saw from their fight before Neinhart was defeated was Gray and Lyon using their big attacks. We didn't see Ur vanish, we didn't see her get defeated, we didn't even see her take any damage. The same goes for all the other fights. We have no proof that any of them were defeated at all. Its very likely that they only disappeared because Neinhart was defeated.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Here's the problem though. We have no proof that Gray and Lyon were even able to take down Ur at all. The last thing we saw from their fight before Neinhart was defeated was Gray and Lyon using their big attacks. We didn't see Ur vanish, we didn't see her get defeated, we didn't even see her take any damage. The same goes for all the other fights. We have no proof that any of them were defeated at all. Its very likely that they only disappeared because Neinhart was defeated.

I think there is sufficent evidence to say that they were able to defeat their respective Historias.

Spoiler

I mean they were celebrating their victory (Ur's defeat) before Neinhart "supposedly died" (MP reaches 0). Plus, we don't even know if he died like God Serena or if he was somehow pulled out of the waters and kept as a prisoner. There is a lot of speculation but I think it is fair to say that they defeated Ur. Otherwise, we would just keep debating over something that can't be 100% proven. I guess we'll just have to disagree and hopefully there will be more evidence in the future (like if Neinhart is actually alive).

 

[Boomburst]

I think there is sufficent evidence to say that they were able to defeat their respective Historias.

Spoiler

I mean they were celebrating their victory (Ur's defeat) before Neinhart "supposedly died" (MP reaches 0). Plus, we don't even know if he died like God Serena or if he was somehow pulled out of the waters and kept as a prisoner. There is a lot of speculation but I think it is fair to say that they defeated Ur. Otherwise, we would just keep debating over something that can't be 100% proven. I guess we'll just have to disagree and hopefully there will be more evidence in the future (like if Neinhart is actually alive).

Well I mean it's really hard to say the exact point that Neinhart's MP went to zero, so I guess both sides can be argued in regards to that. It's hard to determine exactly what happened since Mashima left a lot to the imagination and made the exact outcome pretty unclear. I guess we'll just have to wait until Gray fights someone else to get a solid grasp on his power level.

 

[Axiomus]

I agree with Escanors Pride. The fight was a combination of both physical and mental performance. Gray and Lyon are at least on Ur's level (Low-Wizard Saint Tier) individually. Lyon was obviously impacted psychologically so the main purpose for this fight was for Gray to help him overcome his emotions, which he had already done himself. This is seen in the following panels.

Spoiler

In a way, Hiro Mashima portrayed the difficulty of this fight the same as every other character who went against their Historia. It really just depends on how you define the difficulty of the fight. But it should be consistent for all the fights. Meaning if you rate Gray + Lyon's fight a certain difficulty, it should be the same with Erza + Wendy + Juvia + Meredy + Laxus. There are subtle differences that I will explain though.

Spoiler

In my opinion, they were all able to defeat the Pre-Timeskip characters quite easily. The fact that it only took one combined spell to take down Ur, I would place the difficulty of this fight at Low-Difficulty. It is true they took some damage but that was mainly to show Lyon overcoming his emotions. Gray was restricted because of Lyon. Similarly, Jellal was restricted because of Kagura.

Laxus, Erza, and Wendy seemingly defeated their opponents pretty easily despite being injured beforehand. But they didn't have any emotional attachment with their Historias, so that would change the dynamics of the two situations immensely.

How about Meredy and Juvia? I would say their situation is the most similar to Gray and Lyon. Again, I rate this a Low-Difficulty fight. Note that they have the same amount of scratches as Gray + Lyon. So are there any differences? Yes. Neither of them had attachments to their Historia. Meredy and Juvia struggled because they aren't as strong as Gray + Lyon. Gray and Lyon struggled because they have emotional attachments to their Historia while Meredy + Juvia didn't.

So to sum up the power ranking. Lyon has no other power-ups and since Gray convinced him to go all out against Ur (to surpass her), whatever he displayed here is a good indication of where he is which is around Pre-Timeskip Ur's level (Not something to underestimate). Gray, on the other hand, wasn't using full power and he didn't even use DeS mode so that would place him well above Erza (Jura's Level or Mid-Tier Wizard Saint).

I don't think all the Historias gave everyone the same difficulty. Laxus held his own against Hades for a while, and then he took him down with Lightning Dragon's bite. He was never shown to be overpowered by Hades in the same way the others were. Had Laxus been fresh and attacked Hades in the same way he attacked Ajeel, it would have been a oneshot. Wendy couldn't move her legs against Ezel, so she took a bunch of hits. Once she could move her legs, she took Ezel out in one hit. Juvia and Meredy were both losing ground to their Historia until they linked power, which amplified their combined powers. Had they 1v1 their opponents, Juvia probably would have had to resort to the same difficulty she did in Tartarus (high) and Meredy was unlikely to low diff Zancrow. Given all that, I'm also inclined to portray their fight as med-difficulty. As far as I'm concerned, Erza lost her fight with her Historia. She managed to intimidate them with her fighting spirit, but that's not a true victory in the sense that had the Historia been real they would have never simply vanished. But then again, it's not really fair to compare Erza's fight with anyone else's because it was a 3v1. I have no doubts that she could have beaten any one of them in a 1v1. My point is that none of the Historia battles were really of the same difficulty, and not everyone went into the battle under the same conditions.

Was there a psychological aspect to having to fight Ur? Probably. I'll admit that there is some merit to saying that having Ur fight Gray and Lyon probably messed with their performance a bit. However, I think there is also a tendency to exaggerate. We've seen Gray fight Silver seriously before, and Silver was Gray's own father. Gray was pretty quick to figure out that this Ur was not real, and that they are up against an enemy. We simply don't see Gray hesitating to fight Ur. Now Lyon was obviously intimidated by Ur, and that effected his attitude in combat. Still, I don't see how Lyon's hesitance can be anywhere near as crippling as being physically unable to move your leg or having been beat up by a Spriggan. Maybe you can make the case that since Lyon was out of it for most of the fight, he wasn't an effective partner and made Gray do more work than necessary. That would make sense because I can accept Lyon being around Ur's level, and Gray being well above that level. I'll even give you that had Lyon had that attitude from the start, they probably could have low-diffed her. What I don't believe is that Gray had the capacity to stomp Ur (at least in his base mode), and simply opted not to just to teach Lyon a lesson.

I have Gray and Erza both on the same level. In the same way you can say that Gray didn't use his demonized form against Ur, I can also say Erza never resorted to nakagami against her Historia (though personally I believe it was because she couldn't use something so taxing because of her injuries). As it happens to be, we've seen the effects of Gray's demonized form and Erza's nakagami armor on Ajeel.

 

[Crimson Ice]

You're making the claim that Gajeel is on par in physicals and you have yet to prove anything that suggests this.

Have you even read the fight? Gajeel easily countered any physical attack from Bradman and even headbutted him when he started choking him. It should be the other way round, or do I literally have to explain what physical is to you ?

• Bradman hasn't gotten hurt by any of Gajeel's attacks [Already disproved your claim that states otherwise]

You didn't disprove anything Bradman is shown being affected by Gajeel#s headbutt.

• Gajeel is beat up before Bradman uses his Skulls (Magic)

Only damage or scratches he revived was from figthing fodder, Bradman done nothing to him up until the skulls.

• Bradman doesn't even have a scratch on him

Irrelevant.

• Gajeel needed help from Levy (fodder)

Needed help from his skull magic not because Bradman was physically beating him down.

Case in point, nothing you have shown puts Gajeel on par with Bradman in anything.

I have and all you bring up is his skull magic which is not physical based, all you're good at is trying to deflect my points.

--- Double Post Merged, May 29, 2016, Original Post Date: May 29, 2016 ---

That was with Igneel's power, and that level of power is far beyond anything we're talking about right here. Even in base mode, Igneel's power makes Natsu stronger than anything he can do in DFK mode with his own power. Igneel's power is, by definition, greater than anything Natsu has got going all out.

We haven't Natsu go all out using his own power. Natsu also used Fire Dragon King mode against Jacob. Obviously he wasn't anywhere near as exhausted as when he used Igneel's power. Look, we'll get to see Natsu go all out against August soon enough.

It doesn't matter if it was with Igneel's power when he's using the power that doesn't restrict him from using any other modes. Natsu planned to throw everything at Igneel and it shown to be able to use his regular modes with that power. Natsu going all out if BDKM or he would have used his highest mode against Zeref.

 

[Axiomus]

--- Double Post Merged, May 29, 2016, Original Post Date: May 29, 2016 ---

It doesn't matter if it was with Igneel's power when he's using the power that doesn't restrict him from using any other modes. Natsu planned to throw everything at Igneel and it shown to be able to use his regular modes with that power. Natsu going all out if BDKM or he would have used his highest mode against Zeref.

Of course it matters. Natsu didn't throw all of Igneel's power into that strike. He had enough for another attack. Are the FDK mode punches Natsu uses with his own power as exhaustive as the ones he uses against Zeref? If not, then they are simply not comparable. Look, Natsu will probably get a chance to go all out against August. If he uses multiple FDK spells or uses a FDK version of his slayer art, we'll have confirmation that he didn't go all out against the war god, Jacob, or the Alvarez troops. If Natsu exhaust himself after using a single FDk spell, then I'll tip my hat to you.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I don't think all the Historias gave everyone the same difficulty. Laxus held his own against Hades for a while, and then he took him down with Lightning Dragon's bite. He was never shown to be overpowered by Hades in the same way the others were. Had Laxus been fresh and attacked Hades in the same way he attacked Ajeel, it would have been a oneshot. Wendy couldn't move her legs against Ezel, so she took a bunch of hits. Once she could move her legs, she took Ezel out in one hit. Juvia and Meredy were both losing ground to their Historia until they linked power, which amplified their combined powers. Had they 1v1 their opponents, Juvia probably would have had to resort to the same difficulty she did in Tartarus (high) and Meredy was unlikely to low diff Zancrow. Given all that, I'm also inclined to portray their fight as med-difficulty. As far as I'm concerned, Erza lost her fight with her Historia. She managed to intimidate them with her fighting spirit, but that's not a true victory in the sense that had the Historia been real they would have never simply vanished. But then again, it's not really fair to compare Erza's fight with anyone else's because it was a 3v1. I have no doubts that she could have beaten any one of them in a 1v1. My point is that none of the Historia battles were really of the same difficulty, and not everyone went into the battle fresh. Put a fresh Laxus in Erza's place, and he would have just lolstomped with a nuke.

Yeah, I can actually see your point. To be honest, it's hard for me to label any of these fights a certain difficulty because they were mostly off-panel. I gave Laxus Low-Difficulty in his fight because he resorted to a strong attack just to defeat Hades. But I guess I am willing give him No Difficulty. I will admit though that Juvia and Meredy would probably have a Medium-Difficulty fight if they were to fight individually. The reason for this is because Juvia trained with Gray for 6 months and should have gotten stronger so it shouldn't be a High-Difficulty fight like in the Tartaros Arc. But once Meredy and Juvia combined strengths and enhance it, I don't see how it couldn't be a Low-Difficulty match. None of the fights shown should have been pushed to Medium-Difficulty in my opinion, mainly because it took one attack to bring their opponents down (at least thats what was shown).

Anyways, the way I see it is that Laxus + Erza + Wendy + Juvia + Meredy were all facing opponents that were once considered their enemies. Lyon was the only one who was forced to fight 2 battles (physical and mental). Meanwhile, Gray was just being prevented from going all out because of Lyon. I see Gray and Lyon being able to defeat their opponents the same way as everyone else (as seen at the end), once Lyon is able to overcome the psychological aspect of the battle.

Was there a psychological aspect to having to fight Ur? Probably. However, we've seen Gray fight Silver seriously before, and Silver was Gray's own father. Gray was pretty quick to figure out that this Ur was not real, and that they are up against an enemy. So do I believe that Gray "held back immensely" simply because he was up against Ur? Not really. Not in the sense that Natsu and Gajeel had to hold back to conserve their magical power. Now, Lyon was obviously intimidated by Ur, and that effected his attitude in combat. However, I don't see that as being more crippling than being unable to move your leg or having recently been beat up by a Spriggan 12 member. Furthermore, this is not something that effected Gray. Maybe you can make the case that since Lyon was out of it for most of the fight, he wasn't an effective partner and made Gray do more work than necessary. That would make sense because I can accept Lyon being around Ur's level, and Gray being well above that level. However, what I don't believe is that Gray had the capabilities to simply stomp Ur in base mode and simply opted not to just to teach Lyon a lesson.

Well, actually I very much agree that Gray didn't have any psychological problems during their battle with Ur. I would disagree with anyone who used Ur as an excuse as to why Gray held back. In fact, what I'm trying to say is that Gray was holding back because of Lyon. The problem with Lyon was that he was never satisfied with not being able to show that he was stronger than his master, Ur. During the battle, he kept repeating that they were unable to beat Ur. That was because he didn't believe he could ever become strong enough or possess such power to surpass her. He was in denial with himself. Because of that, if Gray simply one-shotted Ur (assuming he could have), then Lyon would be in a complete mental breakdown. Gray even mentions many times to Lyon that this is his last chance and that this would be his first step in removing that barrier in his mind.

I will admit that Gray was not holding back the same way that Natsu held back against Bakel. But Gray was forced to play the defensive (getting hit instead of being able to attack) because of Lyon. That is why they had scratches in the end, making it seem like exchanges happened when really Gray could easily overpower Ur without Lyon's presence. I know I keep re-stating this but I assure you it will be the last time I bring it up.

This is very similar to how Jellal could have easily one-shotted Neinhart + Simon but failed to do so when Neinhart created Simon for the 2nd time. Jellal thought that if he were to kill Simon a 2nd time, Kagura would never forgive him especially after witnessing it herself. It turns out though that Kagura overcame her emotions (just like Lyon), and in the end, Jellal easily defeated Neinhart (just like Gray defeating Ur).

I have Gray and Erza both on the same level. In the same way you can say that Gray didn't use his demonized form against Ur, I can also say Erza never resorted to nakagami against her Historia (though personally I believe it was because she couldn't use something so taxing because of her injuries). As it happens to be, we've seen the effects of Gray's demonized form and Erza's nakagami armor on Ajeel.

Fair enough. We'll just disagree here. I believe Full-Power DeS Gray could outclass Erza but maybe that is because I tend to think that Erza didn't train as much as the others over the timeskip (due to her feats).

 

[Crimson Ice]

Of course it matters. Natsu didn't throw all of Igneel's power into that strike. He had enough for another attack. Are the FDK mode punches Natsu uses with his own power as exhaustive as the ones he uses against Zeref? If not, then they are simply not comparable. Look, Natsu will probably get a chance to go all out against August. If he uses multiple FDK spells or uses a FDK version of his slayer art, we'll have confirmation that he didn't go all out against the war god, Jacob, or the Alvarez troops. If Natsu exhaust himself after using a single FDk spell, then I'll tip my hat to you.

No, he said he was going to throw one last last blow with Igneel's strength and was winding up for another punch before Zeref said he was his brother. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY MAE HIM TIRED, he was tired because he was fighting Zeref and was visible INJURED AND FITGUED. Natsu has already gone all out, he has no modes higher than FDKM,