Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

Strongest member of Fairy Tail

  • Natsu

    Votes: 39 42.9%
  • Lucy

    Votes: 2 2.2%
  • Erza

    Votes: 4 4.4%
  • Gray

    Votes: 4 4.4%
  • Gildarts

    Votes: 26 28.6%
  • Laxus

    Votes: 7 7.7%
  • Mirajane

    Votes: 3 3.3%
  • Gajeel

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Wendy

    Votes: 5 5.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    91

Axiomus

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Not explicitly, but the implication was there, especially with all the foreshadowing in the Avatar arc. And like I said, the curse being an alternate source opens up the possibility for other alternate sources, DeS likely being among them given the emphasis on Gray and his darkness.

Why an enormous source of power then? Why not stick with just the insanity shtick? And you're trying to argue that the insanity isn't darkness right? So why exactly would dark Gray be easier to control? I think it's pretty clear that DeS side effects is darkness, that's why immediately after stating it he made his speech about Darkness and why Invel was so eager to unleash it, which also means that DeS magic is in fact a direct source of darkness.
Mashima literally created this power for Gray, which is why Gray got all the exposition for it, which is why Gray is the first and only FT character stated to have used it, which is why other Anger PoF people like Jellal, Erza, Sting, etc, were never even hinted at possessing the same ability, even in the same arc.

Plenty of dragon slayers had negative emotions. Are you trying to tell me Natsu's doubt is even remotely close to the pain Sting endured after Lector was killed? Even remotely close to the pain Rogue endured when Froche was killed? When he killed Sting? Of course not. Even Gajeel had more negatives going for him than Natsu had, doubting his strength, doubting his morality, doubting his place in Fairy Tail.
Dragon Seeds grow regardless of emotion, we know this, this is why antibodies were needed and I think we both know that Natsu's being the only one to grow in spite of antibodies was more to do with who Natsu was, rather than the emotions he was feeling.
Like I said, Invel simply said nothing about Devil Slaying Magic being connected to darkness. He said that the price of using Devil Slaying Magic was losing control of your mind. Which isn't the same thing as darkness. And yes, I am absolutely saying insanity isn't darkness. Invel didn't need to fully control Gray. He just needed Gray to be enraged enough to go after END. I suppose making him angry has the added benefit of making him stronger too, so that he would be better suited to face off against END too.

Mashima didn't create darkness for Gray. The term has showed up throughout the series before the Alvarez Arc. Nor was Gray the first character to use it. Invel literally said that it is a source of power that is available to all humans. Hades was talking about darkness before. Then Makarov gave him a lesson, and told him what we already knew....That it all depends on your feelings.
It should be noted that the following pages has a bit of a mistranslation. Ultear doesn't say "I will seal you into eternal darkness" to Deliora. What Ur actually says here is "I will seal away your darkness" to Gray. This line is then what Gray mirrors to Ultear in their encounter. But anyways, I honestly think that Gray's darkness began with his feelings towards Deliora. When he found closure with Lyon, it got better. Then got worse when he met Silver. Devil Slaying Magic may make it worse by eating away at his mind, but the darkness was always there long before.
Natsu's seed was growing because of his doubt for his humanity. That seed happens to be a seed of darkness. That's the explanation we were given. Was that as bad as thinking Lector was dead? Maybe not. But Sting thought Lector was dead for like maybe all of 5 seconds before Minerva told him he wasn't. Natsu was sitting on his doubt since Zeref revealed he was END. And no doubt thinking Lucy was dead is worse, especially since Natsu didn't know better.
Darkness didn't just pop up during the Alvarez Arc with Gray. Throughout the series. it has been an umbrella term used to describe negative emotions in general. For Ultear, it was her resentment over Ur abandoning her. For Natsu, it was his doubt his humanity (and probably Lucy dying too). For Zeref, it was his anger and sorrow over being cursed. For Gray, it began with what happened with Deliora. Probably got worse in Tartaros with what happened with Silver. To chalk it down to Devil Slaying magic is kind of missing the point of his story tbh. In fact, we miss a huge story beat because "Darkness" is supposedly one of the interpretations for the "One Magic". It's the counterpart to love. I mean, Mashima basically laid it out on the table with Natsu and Zeref's final fight. At the most basic level: Natsu drew upon his love for the guild and Zeref drew upon his darkness. It was quite literally a clash of POF.

And yeah if you ask me if Jellal had darkness back when he was evil, I would say yes. I'd even go out on a limb and say most villains in the series had darkness. In fact, we know that Oracion Seis had darkness because of Nirvanna. Nirvanna flips around darkness and light, and during the arc there was a point where people right on the edge got flipped. Sherry got flipped to darkness because she thought Lyon died, which ended as soon as she saw Lyon was alive. Hoteye got flipped to the light because he found out his brother was alive, and the rest of Oracion Seis remained on the darkness side. So yeah, I'd venture that most of Grimoire Heart had a good amount of darkness too. Hades and Ultear for sure. Probably Meredy too, until Juvia connected with her. Characters like Jose and what-not probably fit the bill too. In general I would say any character that stays evil after being binged with Nirvanna is predominantly basing their powers on darkness.
 
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Like I said, Invel simply said nothing about Devil Slaying Magic being connected to darkness. He said that the price of using Devil Slaying Magic was losing control of your mind. Which isn't the same thing as darkness. And yes, I am absolutely saying insanity isn't darkness. Invel didn't need to fully control Gray. He just needed Gray to be enraged enough to go after END. I suppose making him angry has the added benefit of making him stronger too, so that he would be better suited to face off against END too.

Mashima didn't create darkness for Gray. The term has showed up throughout the series before the Alvarez Arc. Nor was Gray the first character to use it. Invel literally said that it is a source of power that is available to all humans. Hades was talking about darkness before. Then Makarov gave him a lesson, and told him what we already knew....That it all depends on your feelings.
It should be noted that the following pages has a bit of a mistranslation. Ultear doesn't say "I will seal you into eternal darkness" to Deliora. What Ur actually says here is "I will seal away your darkness" to Gray. This line is then what Gray mirrors to Ultear in their encounter. But anyways, I honestly think that Gray's darkness began with his feelings towards Deliora. When he found closure with Lyon, it got better. Then got worse when he met Silver. Devil Slaying Magic may make it worse by eating away at his mind, but the darkness was always there long before.
Natsu's seed was growing because of his doubt for his humanity. That seed happens to be a seed of darkness. That's the explanation we were given. Was that as bad as thinking Lector was dead? Maybe not. But Sting thought Lector was dead for like maybe all of 5 seconds before Minerva told him he wasn't. Natsu was sitting on his doubt since Zeref revealed he was END. And no doubt thinking Lucy was dead is worse, especially since Natsu didn't know better.
Darkness didn't just pop up during the Alvarez Arc with Gray. Throughout the series. it has been an umbrella term used to describe negative emotions in general. For Ultear, it was her resentment over Ur abandoning her. For Natsu, it was his doubt his humanity (and probably Lucy dying too). For Zeref, it was his anger and sorrow over being cursed. For Gray, it began with what happened with Deliora. Probably got worse in Tartaros with what happened with Silver. To chalk it down to Devil Slaying magic is kind of missing the point of his story tbh. In fact, we miss a huge story beat because "Darkness" is supposedly one of the interpretations for the "One Magic". It's the counterpart to love. I mean, Mashima basically laid it out on the table with Natsu and Zeref's final fight. At the most basic level: Natsu drew upon his love for the guild and Zeref drew upon his darkness. It was quite literally a clash of POF.

And yeah if you ask me if Jellal had darkness back when he was evil, I would say yes. I'd even go out on a limb and say most villains in the series had darkness. In fact, we know that Oracion Seis had darkness because of Nirvanna. Nirvanna flips around darkness and light, and during the arc there was a point where people right on the edge got flipped. Sherry got flipped to darkness because she thought Lyon died, which ended as soon as she saw Lyon was alive. Hoteye got flipped to the light because he found out his brother was alive, and the rest of Oracion Seis remained on the darkness side. So yeah, I'd venture that most of Grimoire Heart had a good amount of darkness too. Hades and Ultear for sure. Probably Meredy too, until Juvia connected with her. Characters like Jose and what-not probably fit the bill too. In general I would say any character that stays evil after being binged with Nirvanna is predominantly basing their powers on darkness.
And like I said, the implication was clearly there. Invel stated that DeS magic messes up the mind and then delved into his description of darkness in literally the next sentence. Invel doesn't need to explicitly say DeS=Darkness, the context of the manga matters, Invel didn't just bring Darkness out of nowhere
If angering him was all there was to it his monologue of "I need to unleash his darkness" and "it's an enormous source of power" is entirely unnecessary.

Actually I'd say he created it entirely and specifically for Zeref now that I think about it, rather it's Gray's relation to Zeref that makes his Dark strength unique. Darkness existed as a theme as shown in the panels you gave, an umbrella term for negative emotions like you said, but not as a tangible source of power. Devil Slaying magic is what made Gray's darkness into strength he could draw from, different to say when Sting killed Jiemma, which was stated clearly in the manga as PoF akin to what Natsu has, not darkness.

Natsu's seeds were growing because of doubt, not just his dragon seed, END merging with the Dragon Seed was clearly the catalyst for overcoming the anti-bodies with the tumor and all, otherwise Gajeel, Sting and Rogue would have all dragonized earlier. Besides, Dragon Seeds grow regardless of emotion, which is why anti bodies were necessary to begin with. Oh and even if he did feel worse than Sting, there is no universe in which he felt worse than Future Rogue, who didn't dragonize for years after killing Sting and having Froche murdered.

As for Nirvana, and all other bad guys. Wasn't a power up either, they retained their strength. It's also fundamentally different from Gray since Gray needed to unleash his darkness after it tainted his heart, it did not provide strength until that happened. So even if these villains possessed Darkness as you said it was likely the kind of Darkness that Invel said all humans possessed, they could not draw strength from it like Gray could, likely due to lacking DeS magic. The only exception I would be be Hades, who specifically worked to unlock Darkness using the power of demons, using his heart, and this was noted by everyone as a different kind of magic. And without the power of demons? He could no longer use it. I'd say this is pretty good implication that DeS magic is in fact a source of Darkness, much like Hades heart, much like Zeref's curse.
 

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This convo's getting a bit long, so I'm gonna try and cut it as short as I can
1. Nowhere is it stated or even implied that Dragon Force is only possible cause of antibodies, throughout the series it's known as a learned technique.
2. So what if he can? None of the spriggans were close enough to help. And not really Base Natsu still performed very well.
3. Difference is Zeref was serious in the fight and visibly exhausted afterwards.
4. That doesn't make it a oneshot, Bluenote took several hits before then.
5. Laughing is an indicator of not taking it seriously. Describe bloodlust however you want, I'm talking about effort, Acno clearly put in none, unlike Zeref.
6. How is it bypassing it? DS magic doesn't just phase through the scales, it smacks it like any other attack. Kyoka doesn't have a human form, nor do any of the demon gates other than Silver, they just have a non Etherious form. I misremembered Mirajanes line, supposedly she has the demon gene not curse power.
7. Verifiably false. Zeref's death wave could hurt Aldaron. FH Zeref thinks he can kill Acnologia.
8. Scales are never said to provide any sort of immunity to magic, and we have seen first hand that they don't. Last Aegis, Zeref turning EIleen human, etc.
9. Not a single roar was used by Acnologia til the end, whenever Acno attacks, explosions happen. Acno actually using his DS magic, soloed the Parent Dragons including Igneel without even needing to face them directly, that's the difference in power. For Igneel being able to dodge, sure, probably.
10. Oh i think getting hit by the meteor hurts more than being hit by Erza's sword. I think Eileen's claw swipe hits harder than Erza's sword. That aside, it's a physical attack, we have seen with Igneel, if you are on par with the dragon, your physical attacks can tear through dragon scales, Erza simply was not on that level. The issue with dragon scales is power, not hax, not bypassing it, which is why Igneel could rip through Acno and why the extra damage of DS magic is needed
1) Dragon Force isn't the cause of antibodies , Igneel specifically leaving them inside Natsu's body is. Dragon Force is simply dragonizing into a dragon and obtaining features of a dragon. He dragonizes more and more after activating DF as the series goes on. The dragon seed left inside Natsu's body is Igneel's. Zeref even references that Natsu should've been able to transform into a full dragon like Acno instead of his partial dragonization.

2) He can shift his focus from the guild to Natsu. Attacking Natsu is easier than attacking the guild. Attacking Natsu is better than wasting time out there sending his Spriggans from all directions to attack FT.

3) The fact that he could immobilize Natsu easily suggests he wasn't. If he really was hell bent on killing Natsu he could've simply burnt the book of END. As for him being exhausted , I'd attribute it to jumping and running around the guild constantly. It doesn't matter though because we know he's fast enough to tag Natsu , and thus definitely fast enough to put that spell on Natsu whenever he wants.

4) It does , because Bluenote wasn't close to falling down or inconvenienced even after their "exchange" of attacks. Besides , Bluenote himself said that they weren't fighting seriously , and according to his words when they started fighting "seriously" , he got oneshotted.

5) Wrong , it isn't. I don't know from where you got that idea , serial killers also laugh while killing their victims , doesn't mean they're any less bloodlusted lol. Acno not putting effort is also something you interpreted out of the story so that the "Acno strongest" narrative should remain consistent. But if we're talking about throwing away narratives then why not do the same for Acno. There's no evidence he didn't put in his maximum effort. In fact , Jellal blocked Human Acno's serious attack without any difficulty at all , so well , that Acno considered going into dragon form right off the bat. Acno's attack didn't even scratch Jellal's barrier. And after that he couldn't catch up to even one ship and had to chase Christina for several chapters across Magnolia.

6) Because Zirconis said so. "Human form" doesn't change the fact that you're inherently demon. Human form is just a fancy name for something they use to look like a human. Irene and Acnologia have human forms , doesn't change the fact that their composition is of a dragon. In the end they're dragons. Silver also at his root is now a demon. He was a human once , but he was resurrected by Keith and was turned into a demon wielding demon slaying magic. Doesn't matter whatever Mirajane has , in the end she's a humn wielding a demon's power , if she has a demon gene then it makes her even more similar to a dragon Slayer like Natsu since Natsu has inherited the dragon seed from Igneel.

7) I did mention the exceptions. "Strong magic".

8) Last Aegis was a surprise attack for the dragons ( not to mention it's a sacrificial attack and usually such attacks' potency is way higher than what the user can usually muster ) , Zeref deenchanting Irene was via mutual consent.

9) No , we've no way of knowing that. They fought an off screen fight for 20 minutes far above the clouds specifically so that FT and the others won't get destroyed as collateral damage from their fight. You can't possibly believe that Acno did not use a single magic attack in their fight despite the fact he got put down in the first round and was going to die if it weren't for Igneel's plot induced stupidity ? Acno was using his Dragon Slaying Magic all the time , the "soul reaping" thing is some extra hax he's got that hasn't been elaborated yet. He's literally the dragon of magic , his element of slaying is magic. If that was his DS magic he would be known as the "soul dragon" and not the "magic dragon". Igneel being able to dodge every single attack from Acno while he continues to pound Acno ? Sorry that's a no from me buddy , they were evenly matched and were clashing head on.

10) Erza while induced on PoF smashed the meteor into pieces. She didn't just cut it , she smashed it. She destroyed it's momentum. That's the equivalent of matching that meteor's kinetic energy. So yes , Reza's slash did equivalent damage as that meteor. As for Irene's claw strike hitting harder than Erza's sword , I don't think so. Erza was induced on peak PoF that time and was the best she could ever be , however PoF only increases your attack potency as far as I understand , it doesn't increase your durability. I'd say if Erza was told to tank her own sword attack which smashed the meteor she wouldn't be able to , she would die.
 
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Well yeah, they're different emotions. I'm not trying to say that Gray's darkness is the same thing as Natsu's feelings for his friends. But what I am saying is that, fundamentally, they are both emotions that make them stronger.

Sure, like I said before, I get that everybody experiences emotions in a battle. In fact, anybody who's even reading the manga should obviously be able to tell that Gray was angry when he fought Invel. Even robots in this manga have emotions when they fight.

Now, here's where we might slightly differ. In my opinion, emotions can take two routes:

1) Emotions --> Stronger --> POF

2)
Emotions --> More Effort --> Great Fight

One of the greatest flaws of FT is that many battles tend to go through the first route... In my opinion, good writing follows the second route. Whether you think Gray got stronger or put more effort into his fight against Invel is up to you.

Personally, there's a clear distinction between the two. "Stronger" means you get a random power-up. "More Effort" just means you took the fight more seriously, which is essentially equivalent to an adrenaline rush because you are being pushed to your maximum limit that you started the fight with.


Gray was faking it during Avatar. Levy and Briar didn't say that Gray had a lot of darkness because of his devil slaying marks. Briar said Gray's heart was black because of the speech he gave. He had the markings up the entire time during Avatar. He just took off his shirt. Levy just assumed that since he joined Avatar he went off the deep end. Don't think she even saw Gray.

I don't think Gray's darkness is exclusive to his fight with Invel. But it is reliant on him experiencing negative emotions, which isn't happening right now. Though to be fair, I don't think it even matters when evaluating power levels. Like I said, Mashima's whole shtick is that love is the strongest. When Gray starts tapping into regular POF to fight, he'll probably be stronger than when he's tapping into darkness anyways.

I understand that Gray was faking it during Avatar, but clearly the element of "darkness" was an important concept in that arc because Future Rogue foretold Natsu that Gray would be the one to eventually kill Frosch.

Everybody was genuinely worried and concerned that Gray had actually been overtaken by "darkness" after obtaining DeS Magic, and this includes both his own friends in the FT guild and other allied guilds. In other words, there was an actual reason for people to believe that Gray may have lost control over his mind, other than just his attitude seeming off.

That's why Levy sensed it in Avatar, but not before Gray obtained DeS Magic.

If Gray were to simply pretend to be evil and ask to join the Avatar guild, I highly doubt it would fly by the cult members, especially since they were already suspicious of him after he spent a whole year with them.

It was Gray's DeS Magic masking his kind-heartedness that allowed him to fool both his enemies and his allies, which means that it clearly produces dark energy that can lead to side effects on the user's mind.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Like I said, Invel simply said nothing about Devil Slaying Magic being connected to darkness. He said that the price of using Devil Slaying Magic was losing control of your mind. Which isn't the same thing as darkness. And yes, I am absolutely saying insanity isn't darkness. Invel didn't need to fully control Gray. He just needed Gray to be enraged enough to go after END. I suppose making him angry has the added benefit of making him stronger too, so that he would be better suited to face off against END too.

Mashima didn't create darkness for Gray. The term has showed up throughout the series before the Alvarez Arc. Nor was Gray the first character to use it. Invel literally said that it is a source of power that is available to all humans. Hades was talking about darkness before. Then Makarov gave him a lesson, and told him what we already knew....That it all depends on your feelings.
It should be noted that the following pages has a bit of a mistranslation. Ultear doesn't say "I will seal you into eternal darkness" to Deliora. What Ur actually says here is "I will seal away your darkness" to Gray. This line is then what Gray mirrors to Ultear in their encounter. But anyways, I honestly think that Gray's darkness began with his feelings towards Deliora. When he found closure with Lyon, it got better. Then got worse when he met Silver. Devil Slaying Magic may make it worse by eating away at his mind, but the darkness was always there long before.
Natsu's seed was growing because of his doubt for his humanity. That seed happens to be a seed of darkness. That's the explanation we were given. Was that as bad as thinking Lector was dead? Maybe not. But Sting thought Lector was dead for like maybe all of 5 seconds before Minerva told him he wasn't. Natsu was sitting on his doubt since Zeref revealed he was END. And no doubt thinking Lucy was dead is worse, especially since Natsu didn't know better.
Darkness didn't just pop up during the Alvarez Arc with Gray. Throughout the series. it has been an umbrella term used to describe negative emotions in general. For Ultear, it was her resentment over Ur abandoning her. For Natsu, it was his doubt his humanity (and probably Lucy dying too). For Zeref, it was his anger and sorrow over being cursed. For Gray, it began with what happened with Deliora. Probably got worse in Tartaros with what happened with Silver. To chalk it down to Devil Slaying magic is kind of missing the point of his story tbh. In fact, we miss a huge story beat because "Darkness" is supposedly one of the interpretations for the "One Magic". It's the counterpart to love. I mean, Mashima basically laid it out on the table with Natsu and Zeref's final fight. At the most basic level: Natsu drew upon his love for the guild and Zeref drew upon his darkness. It was quite literally a clash of POF.

I think you're missing the context and implications of the word "Darkness" used throughout the series. The word "darkness" alone has many meanings, and it's different depending on which circumstance in the storyline we're talking about.

Ur was specifically referring to Deliora and his role in Gray's traumatic past when she was talking about "sealing his darkness". Not the "negative emotions" that you're talking about.

If Ur meant "darkness = negative emotions" according to what you're saying, then Ur was clearly proven wrong because Gray continued to experience a lot of negative emotions many times throughout the series after Ur supposedly sealed it. And if that's the case, just what did Ur seal exactly?

This was further exacerbated in the Galuna Island Arc and the Sun Village Arc when Gray was still paralyzed with fear while fighting the demon Doriate, even after a substantial number of years have passed since Ur's sacrifice.

Therefore, the word "darkness" can't just be an umbrella term for every single situation and for every single character.
 
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1) Dragon Force isn't the cause of antibodies , Igneel specifically leaving them inside Natsu's body is. Dragon Force is simply dragonizing into a dragon and obtaining features of a dragon. He dragonizes more and more after activating DF as the series goes on. The dragon seed left inside Natsu's body is Igneel's. Zeref even references that Natsu should've been able to transform into a full dragon like Acno instead of his partial dragonization.

2) He can shift his focus from the guild to Natsu. Attacking Natsu is easier than attacking the guild. Attacking Natsu is better than wasting time out there sending his Spriggans from all directions to attack FT.

3) The fact that he could immobilize Natsu easily suggests he wasn't. If he really was hell bent on killing Natsu he could've simply burnt the book of END. As for him being exhausted , I'd attribute it to jumping and running around the guild constantly. It doesn't matter though because we know he's fast enough to tag Natsu , and thus definitely fast enough to put that spell on Natsu whenever he wants.

4) It does , because Bluenote wasn't close to falling down or inconvenienced even after their "exchange" of attacks. Besides , Bluenote himself said that they weren't fighting seriously , and according to his words when they started fighting "seriously" , he got oneshotted.

5) Wrong , it isn't. I don't know from where you got that idea , serial killers also laugh while killing their victims , doesn't mean they're any less bloodlusted lol. Acno not putting effort is also something you interpreted out of the story so that the "Acno strongest" narrative should remain consistent. But if we're talking about throwing away narratives then why not do the same for Acno. There's no evidence he didn't put in his maximum effort. In fact , Jellal blocked Human Acno's serious attack without any difficulty at all , so well , that Acno considered going into dragon form right off the bat. Acno's attack didn't even scratch Jellal's barrier. And after that he couldn't catch up to even one ship and had to chase Christina for several chapters across Magnolia.

6) Because Zirconis said so. "Human form" doesn't change the fact that you're inherently demon. Human form is just a fancy name for something they use to look like a human. Irene and Acnologia have human forms , doesn't change the fact that their composition is of a dragon. In the end they're dragons. Silver also at his root is now a demon. He was a human once , but he was resurrected by Keith and was turned into a demon wielding demon slaying magic. Doesn't matter whatever Mirajane has , in the end she's a humn wielding a demon's power , if she has a demon gene then it makes her even more similar to a dragon Slayer like Natsu since Natsu has inherited the dragon seed from Igneel.

7) I did mention the exceptions. "Strong magic".

8) Last Aegis was a surprise attack for the dragons , Zeref deenchanting Irene was via mutual consent.

9) No , we've no way of knowing that. They fought an off screen fight for 20 minutes far above the clouds specifically so that FT and the others won't get destroyed as collateral damage from their fight. You can't possibly believe that Acno did not use a single magic attack in their fight despite the fact he got put down in the first round and was going to die if it weren't for Igneel's plot induced stupidity ? Acno was using his Dragon Slaying Magic all the time , the "soul reaping" thing is some extra hax he's got that hasn't been elaborated yet. He's literally the dragon of magic , his element of slaying is magic. If that was his DS magic he would be known as the "soul dragon" and not the "magic dragon". Igneel being able to dodge every single attack from Acno while he continues to pound Acno ? Sorry that's a no from me buddy , they were evenly matched and were clashing head on.

10) Erza while induced on PoF smashed the meteor into pieces. She didn't just cut it , she smashed it. She destroyed it's momentum. That's the equivalent of matching that meteor's kinetic energy. So yes , Reza's slash did equivalent damage as that meteor. As for Irene's claw strike hitting harder than Erza's sword , I don't think so. Erza was induced on peak PoF that time and was the best she could ever be , however PoF only increases your attack potency as far as I understand , it doesn't increase your durability. I'd say if Erza was told to tank her own sword attack which smashed the meteor she wouldn't be able to , she would die.
1) I didnt say it was. Zeref said if only Natsu could dragonize, not that he could dragonize.
2) Why would he shift focus from the guild to Natsu? He didn't even know Natsu had Igneel's power til they started fighting
3) Except it wasn't easy, it happened after a high diff fight. Zeref didnt have the book. Could be that the binding spell is simply slower than his others
4) No, Bluenote was clearly portrayed as a match for Gildarts, no way he was getting oneshot. The other hits simply added to the accumulated damage.
5) Irrelevant, what matters is the effort Acno put in. As for me interpreting that because Acno is the strongest, no, I'm interpreting it because there was no visible fatigue, strain or effort shown, unlike with Zeref.

6) How do they have the composition of a dragon if they're a 5-6 foot human? How is the demon gene the same as the dragon seed?
7) ok
8) So? If the scales are immune to magic, why does the brain being surprised matter?

9) The soul reaping thing is his dragon slaying magic, for all we know it's the only ability his DS magic possesses. With DS magic he soloes the parent dragons, thats what we know. I mean what's the alternative here? Acno is immune to Igneel's magic and thus his scales can't be bypasses, while Igneel's scales are supposedly being bypassed by all this DS magic you think he's being hit by. Igneel should be taking more damage either way.

10) Smashing it doesn't impress me more than cutting it. Applying enormous pressure to a single point of a rock is what people do to shatter rocks, the meteors momentum worked against it. To destroy an actual meteor you don't need to match it's kinetic energy or even come close. I don't like getting scientific so I'll just say Erza's strongest attack being stronger than Eileen's strongest attack is plain ridiculous.
 

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And like I said, the implication was clearly there. Invel stated that DeS magic messes up the mind and then delved into his description of darkness in literally the next sentence. Invel doesn't need to explicitly say DeS=Darkness, the context of the manga matters, Invel didn't just bring Darkness out of nowhere
If angering him was all there was to it his monologue of "I need to unleash his darkness" and "it's an enormous source of power" is entirely unnecessary.

Actually I'd say he created it entirely and specifically for Zeref now that I think about it, rather it's Gray's relation to Zeref that makes his Dark strength unique. Darkness existed as a theme as shown in the panels you gave, an umbrella term for negative emotions like you said, but not as a tangible source of power. Devil Slaying magic is what made Gray's darkness into strength he could draw from, different to say when Sting killed Jiemma, which was stated clearly in the manga as PoF akin to what Natsu has, not darkness.

Natsu's seeds were growing because of doubt, not just his dragon seed, END merging with the Dragon Seed was clearly the catalyst for overcoming the anti-bodies with the tumor and all, otherwise Gajeel, Sting and Rogue would have all dragonized earlier. Besides, Dragon Seeds grow regardless of emotion, which is why anti bodies were necessary to begin with. Oh and even if he did feel worse than Sting, there is no universe in which he felt worse than Future Rogue, who didn't dragonize for years after killing Sting and having Froche murdered.

As for Nirvana, and all other bad guys. Wasn't a power up either, they retained their strength. It's also fundamentally different from Gray since Gray needed to unleash his darkness after it tainted his heart, it did not provide strength until that happened. So even if these villains possessed Darkness as you said it was likely the kind of Darkness that Invel said all humans possessed, they could not draw strength from it like Gray could, likely due to lacking DeS magic. The only exception I would be be Hades, who specifically worked to unlock Darkness using the power of demons, using his heart, and this was noted by everyone as a different kind of magic. And without the power of demons? He could no longer use it. I'd say this is pretty good implication that DeS magic is in fact a source of Darkness, much like Hades heart, much like Zeref's curse.
Invel's still not saying anything that connects devil slaying magic to darkness. In fact, what Invel did say was that darkness was something that exists inside of everyone. I mean, sure. You can say that darkness was created for Zeref. But that's really because he's one of the major final villains. Other villains have darkness too. Zeref just happens to have more darkness than pretty much anyone except for Acnologia. Oracion Seis didn't get a power-up because they didn't switch to darkness. They were already using darkness. The only person that switched to darkness was Sherry, and she's too weak to see noticeable power-up in the first place.

Yes, both of Natsu's seeds were growing because of his doubt. That doubt began when Zeref told him he was END. As far as the dragonization goes, it also depends on your power level. F!Rogue wasn't on a level where he would have fully dragonized anyways. Neither is Natsu for the matter. At least not when he had END's power. Closest he got was during Dragon Cry, but there was some massive nakama-based POF when he drank Lucy's tears.
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Sure, like I said before, I get that everybody experiences emotions in a battle. In fact, anybody who's even reading the manga should obviously be able to tell that Gray was angry when he fought Invel. Even robots in this manga have emotions when they fight.

Now, here's where we might slightly differ. In my opinion, emotions can take two routes:

1) Emotions --> Stronger --> POF

2)
Emotions --> More Effort --> Great Fight

One of the greatest flaws of FT is that many battles tend to go through the first route... In my opinion, good writing follows the second route. Whether you think Gray got stronger or put more effort into his fight against Invel is up to you.

Personally, there's a clear distinction between the two. "Stronger" means you get a random power-up. "More Effort" just means you took the fight more seriously, which is essentially equivalent to an adrenaline rush because you are being pushed to your maximum limit that you started the fight with.





I understand that Gray was faking it during Avatar, but clearly the element of "darkness" was an important concept in that arc because Future Rogue foretold Natsu that Gray would be the one to eventually kill Frosch.

Everybody was genuinely worried and concerned that Gray had actually been overtaken by "darkness" after obtaining DeS Magic, and this includes both his own friends in the FT guild and other allied guilds. In other words, there was an actual reason for people to believe that Gray may have lost control over his mind, other than just his attitude seeming off.

That's why Levy sensed it in Avatar, but not before Gray obtained DeS Magic.

If Gray were to simply pretend to be evil and ask to join the Avatar guild, I highly doubt it would fly by the cult members, especially since they were already suspicious of him after he spent a whole year with them.

It was Gray's DeS Magic masking his kind-heartedness that allowed him to fool both his enemies and his allies, which means that it clearly produces dark energy that can lead to side effects on the user's mind.
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I think you're missing the context and implications of the word "Darkness" used throughout the series. The word "darkness" alone has many meanings, and it's different depending on which circumstance in the storyline we're talking about.

Ur was specifically referring to Deliora and his role in Gray's traumatic past when she was talking about "sealing his darkness". Not the "negative emotions" that you're talking about.

If Ur meant "darkness = negative emotions" according to what you're saying, then Ur was clearly proven wrong because Gray continued to experience a lot of negative emotions many times throughout the series after Ur supposedly sealed it. And if that's the case, just what did Ur seal exactly?

This was further exacerbated in the Galuna Island Arc and the Sun Village Arc when Gray was still paralyzed with fear while fighting the demon Doriate, even after a substantial number of years have passed since Ur's sacrifice.

Therefore, the word "darkness" can't just be an umbrella term for every single situation and for every single character.
Again, people thought that Gray was evil during Avatar because of his words and actions. Briar's reaction was in response to Gray's rant about not caring about anything other than destroying END. Levy was just going off info that the council gathered about Gray joining Avatar. The only person that thought Gray's devil slaying magic made Gray evil was Natsu, and he turned out to be wrong. Because again, Gray was faking it. When they found out Gray was good, they stopped worrying about his darkness.

Ur did seal Gray's darkness. Deliora was the cause of all of Gray's pain, so by sealing him she hoped that he would find peace. And Gray did find his peace with that on Galuna Island. But then Tartaros arc happened, and everything that went down with Silver made those emotions resurface. Silver sent him on a vengeance mission against END.
 

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Invel's still not saying anything that connects devil slaying magic to darkness. In fact, what Invel did say was that darkness was something that exists inside of everyone. I mean, sure. You can say that darkness was created for Zeref. But that's really because he's one of the major final villains. Other villains have darkness too. Zeref just happens to have more darkness than pretty much anyone except for Acnologia. Oracion Seis didn't get a power-up because they didn't switch to darkness. They were already using darkness. The only person that switched to darkness was Sherry, and she's too weak to see noticeable power-up in the first place.

Yes, both of Natsu's seeds were growing because of his doubt. That doubt began when Zeref told him he was END. As far as the dragonization goes, it also depends on your power level. F!Rogue wasn't on a level where he would have fully dragonized anyways. Neither is Natsu for the matter. At least not when he had END's power. Closest he got was during Dragon Cry, but there was some massive nakama-based POF when he drank Lucy's tears.
Like I said, context matters, if he brings Darkness up out of nowhere in the very next sentence, obviously they are related. Sure, other villains have it, Hades, and that's the end of that list. There are 3 characters in the entire manga who were stated and shown to use Darkness as a tangible source of power, Hades using his Devil Heart, Zeref using his curse, and Gray using his DeS magic. The power of Darkness is more than negative emotions, at the bare minimum, it also encompasses Demon Hearts and Black Curses.

Sure, but the dragon seed likely wouldn't have started growing if it wasn't for END trying to merge with it. Rogue doesn't need to fully dragonize, his seed had 7 years to grow, it didn't.
 

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Again, people thought that Gray was evil during Avatar because of his words and actions. Briar's reaction was in response to Gray's rant about not caring about anything other than destroying END. Levy was just going off info that the council gathered about Gray joining Avatar. The only person that thought Gray's devil slaying magic made Gray evil was Natsu, and he turned out to be wrong. Because again, Gray was faking it. When they found out Gray was good, they stopped worrying about his darkness.

I'm quite skeptical that the point of that arc was just to showcase Gray's acting skills. And besides, it was stated that Gray actually killed Frosch in Future Rogue's timeline, so there was clearly a Darkness element at play during the Avatar Arc. It just happened that present Gray was able to control the side effects of DeS Magic since the timeline was slightly altered due the events of the Eclipse Gate Arc.

As for Levy, she was a spy within the Avatar guild who was working as an informant for the Magic Council, so whatever information the council forces had was based on Levy's own observations on the inside. Nobody else would have known about the secret plans for Operation Purification unless they were members of Avatar.


Ur did seal Gray's darkness. Deliora was the cause of all of Gray's pain, so by sealing him she hoped that he would find peace. And Gray did find his peace with that on Galuna Island. But then Tartaros arc happened, and everything that went down with Silver made those emotions resurface. Silver sent him on a vengeance mission against END.

I agree with all of this, which is why I said darkness has several meanings throughout the series. Even in between the time that Deliora was sealed and the Silver/END plot, Gray still experienced a lot of different negative emotions, which means that the "Darkness" concept couldn't simply be an umbrella term.
 

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Where are people gonna be willing to put Jellal if this God Seed is correctly powered and tiered.
 

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The only person this guy fought is Jellal so how powerful can we know he is? It's not like the other Gods Seeds were really anything to snuff at either besides the Aldo-Seed.
 

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Doom was a joke and Metro summoned some pretty strong creatures, but he's a summoner so he automatically has trash defense.

I feel like the other God Seeds are actually pretty strong when it comes to offense.
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Wolfen is the most op in my opinion, but he's just unlucky that Zeref hard counters him. Otherwise he woud've wiped out Fairy Tail.
 

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There's more feats and portrayal for Jellal, so the seed who is fighting Jellal can be ranked according to the performance.
 

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Where are people gonna be willing to put Jellal if this God Seed is correctly powered and tiered.
If the fight isn't some disappointment, he'll just re-establish to be Laxus level.

It's a bit hard to judge, since Doom was a joke. Horde was powerful as a summoner, but by himself he was a joke as well (Neinhart 2.0).

If we consider Doom as the outlier, then Gears should be on the level of Horde + tree grunts. If he actually gives Jellal a run for his money, it will basically be confirmed. Jellal winning a hard fought match would raise him up as well.
 

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Nothing suggests the tactician of the group will be as powerful as the horde in physicals. The horde is all about physical strength while Gears is clearly not. Jellal beating Gears would mean he just ain't fodder.
 
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grey matter

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Nothing suggests the tactician of the group will be as powerful as the horde in physicals. The horde is all about physical strength while Gears is clearly not. Jellal beating Gears would mean he just ain't fodder.
I meant overall.
Horde (+ tree grunts) ~ Gears ~ Wolven. IT's like when we say the average Spriggan is comparable to each other when it comes to overall ability, though some are hax fodders while others are good in stats.
Gears is probably the versatile God seed.

Horde's grunts were strong in physical, he himself was Neinhart.
 

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I meant overall.
Horde (+ tree grunts) ~ Gears ~ Wolven. IT's like when we say the average Spriggan is comparable to each other when it comes to overall ability, though some are hax fodders while others are good in stats.
Gears is probably the versatile God seed.

Horde's grunts were strong in physical, he himself was Neinhart.
Metro was able to keep BSS/Gray/Gajeel/Elfman/Lucy/Lisanna/Cana/Juvia at bay. Wolven was able to do the same but with the entire guild. Those are far greater feats than beating up Jellal alone lol. Gears would have to do something really impressive to say his overall ability is capable of doing that. Beating up Jellal alone doesn't really tell me that.
 

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Morning,

I put this thread to discuss about Laxus, Jellal and Erza. To challenge their Stats all about the Manga's Timeline, their evolutions, their feats, their stories….
Explain why you put one above others or below during specific timeline or simply say what you think about them.

Enjoy....
 
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GL_Nova

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Metro was able to keep BSS/Gray/Gajeel/Elfman/Lucy/Lisanna/Cana/Juvia at bay. Wolven was able to do the same but with the entire guild. Those are far greater feats than beating up Jellal alone lol. Gears would have to do something really impressive to say his overall ability is capable of doing that. Beating up Jellal alone doesn't really tell me that.
Where is your argument coming from? Jellal has consistently been stronger than everyone you just listed. Since his introduction. An, like Laxus, has proven capable of soloing a guild of comparable strength to FT group A, sans transformations. At this point his good showings far outweigh any of his negative ones. Every other seed fell to group attacks, and was a summoner. If this one keeps pressing a fully rested Jellal, it puts him at S tier for the guild. The current guild.
 
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