Is this the longest post in this forum? LOL!!!!
Haha, nearly didn't reply because of the sheer volume! Going closest to longest post
We agree then. Based on hype, August/Irene > Dimaria. Based on 'feats' and in the event we don't account for the NLF, Dimaria would be above though, in terms of hax.
Yes, which is why I think using hax counters as a way to rank is probably not as reflective of the whole manga as just ranking characters on their own abilities.
I do believe the Spriggans have the MP and the good guys have the skills. Although Spriggans like Dimaria have the MP+Skills. So, a Dimaria matchup with Laxus is a bad matchup... Actually, pretty much anyone against Dimaria is a bad matchup.
Some people claim Age Seal won't work on people with similar or higher MP than Dimaria, but Dimaria should arguably have more MP than Laxus, so Laxus would get age sealed...
OR maybe age limit won't work on beings FROM Laxus' level on (we know it worked on Kagura but she kind of hinted that something was going on, and Laxus >> Kagura.
That's right, Laxus shouldn't beat DiMaria based on what we know. But, within the Spriggans, there really isn't a heirarchy other than Irene/August. Given that there will be some kind of difference between 3-12, is it enough for Laxus to be assume below DiMaria? Ie is Laxus performance v Wahl not good enough to be ranked similar to DiMaria?
I think Kagura did notice something, but it wasn't enough for he to actually know what happened. Tbh I think it's possible that you can notice/counter Age Seal through MP strength, but as it's not defined I give Age Seal the benefit of the doubt of time-stopping Laxus completely.
I get your point, although whereas I believe age seal to be activated in nanoseconds, I think transportation requires of 1-2 seconds to activate it + 2 seconds to fully render it (seen when, after joining his hands, the members of FT still didn't disappear until a couple of panels later, but they were in the verge of disappearing).
This is really splitting hairs. Grand Chariot took longer than Natsu's FDK move to use, yet Jellal is likely a Natsu-tier on feats. 1-2 seconds is still quick. Who would stop it if they didn't know, other than DiMaria?
Think of this: Dimaria only needs to think of stopping time so that it happens. She's used to it. It's her magic and she only has to think of this one thing, so it's been authomatized. It will be activated within nano or miliseconds.
As for Brandish, thinking of how she's going to apply her magic, as in, that part she's going to shrink, to what size, etc.; these thoughts should take slightly more miliseconds or even seconds than Dimaria's magic. But hey, that's all speculation.
Brandish shrunk Marin close to instant. Thought processes I assume are the same.
While Wahl is all cqc, and he has arguably good durability (he can withstand Laxus' magicless blows, we don't know how good he'd do against an opponent whose magic Wahl was not immune. For example, if Laxus used fire instead of lightning, or any other element for that matter, he'd have won very easily, without having to resort to a new kind of lightning/magic.
However, Laxus (and most characters on the good side by that token) wouldn't even be capable of getting close to Bradman without dying. Laxus may have MBP resistance but he's an exception. Natsu, Erza, Jellal... Anyone capable of standing against a spriggan couldn't arguably get close enough to Bradman.
So, I can see Natsu, Erza, Jellal fighting Wahl. Heck, I can EVEN see them winning... in some scenarios and under some conditions. But against Bradman, hell no!
I wouldn't assume Wahl would've been beaten easily, but easier yes. It really depends if you want to downplay Wahl or hype Laxus though. Earlier in the arc he dropped a nuke that August thought might wreck Ajeel, so I've been giving Laxus the benefit of the doubt thanks to that (ie assume Laxus is above 'regular' spriggan level, by a fair margin). That assumption does fit with Laxus winning how he did, and Wahl not being a weak Spriggan.
Yeah, NLF... Let's assume that, since they've been stated to be stronger than the other Spriggans, they can individually solo all of them, because they can counter their magic.
This is what I'm getting at with the hax countering. Lets pick 4 characters - August, Laxus, Wahl and Bradman.
Under the assumption that you need to counter a hax to be in the same tier, Wahl can counter Bradman for sure. August and Laxus can't. So Wahl > Bradman > Laxus.
Under the assumption that hype is correct and fight outcomes represent power ranking in some way, August > Laxus > Wahl.
If you combine the 2 lines of thinking, then it's obvious there's something wrong with one of them, as they conflict. I'd be more inclined to believe the first one is wrong.
I get you, but Bradman has a wide variety of magic to defeat Wahl, whereas Wahl's only got cqc and beams that aren't going to even scratch Bradman (I think).
I never really get the variety argument when it comes to beating someone strong. It's a toolshed analogy. Let's say you want to knock down a wall. What matters most? That you have tools for demolition, or that you have more tools? Obviously having more tools gives you greater odds at having the right tool. But if you can prove someone has the right tools then it doesn't matter how many tools they have.
My example is Laxus and Jellal. Laxus knows less spells, but can arguably use spells that rival Jellal's best. Jellal knowing bind snake or telekenesis wouldn't matter worth a damn in a fight like that. If someone says having more spells gives Jellal a better shot I'd ask why. What matters for Jellal is that he has powerful spells, not more spells.
For Wahl and Bradman, Wahl can oneshot Bradman with canceler. To say Wahl can't scratch Bradman is not a way to test Wahl's offence because it's a hax. It's like asking to test Natsu's offensive under Age Seal - he can't move so there isn't anything to gain. If both Wahl and Bradman were asked to destroy the GoI, I think Wahl would slightly win that, in my opinion.
That is one of the reasons why I consider Wahl an overrated, and not so strong Spriggan.
Does he? Bradman didn't actually display all he's capable of. As a matter of fact, he's got some strength/power-based curses that might overpower most of Wahl's attacks... But I'm not sure.
This could be true, I won't deny it. But his attacks aren't weak. His CQC is up there, probably the best on feats. The damage he did on Laxus rivals what Serena did to the GoI. Even if we equalise Laxus' durability with the GoI's, we get Wahl's 3 attacks ~ God Serena's 3 slayer spells, given Laxus was beaten up in much the same way. Of course Wahl got plot help with the sickness, while Serena actually overpowered his opponents, but I think it's also worth noting that none of the GoI can put up a fight like Laxus could. And again if the GoI ~ Laxus, then GS >> Wahl.
While I believe Levy's case to be a plothole, Gajeel was a natural counter (iron-made lungs) and therefore, he was an exception. Similar to Ur being a counter against age seal.
How is Levy a plot hole?
I believe Jura to be around the same level as Bluenote, but the GoI to be slightly superior, by which GS's casual attacks would be superior to base Natsu's serious roar which fodderized Bluenote, but of course, all speculation.
If Jura ~ Bluenote, then wouldn't one Base Roar of Natsu's be equivalent to all of God Serena's attacks? Jura endured the same stuff the GoI did, and went down at the same time. Even if we say the GoI have double the endurance of Jura, then 1 base roar of Natsu's is about the same as 2 of Serena's DS spells.
You're right, but Natsu's flames were city-wrecking from beginning of the series and they might actually even cover more AoE than Serena's casual attacks, while we all know that God Serena is incredibly, enormously, immensely superior to beginning of series Natsu.
Natsu has never done a FD Iron fist on the level of God Serena's Hellflame. Well not to my knowledge anyway. First time I saw it was against Zeref's army. Even the one against the War God was less (this is the first attack, not demolishing strike).
That's been my reasoning lately. I think we overthink these things and Mashima does not pay much attention to them. In fact I think he'd laugh to death if he read our assumptions and our measuring of his attacks, like, WTF what are these guys doing? hahahaha
I do agree. I think people shouldn't take too hard a stance. I do pick a stance, but if more stuff becomes available I have no problem changing.
There is also another point that we need to consider and that is actually having a basis of feats in X792. Essentially the wealth of feats pre-skip are redundant. So we're left with assessing feats 'fresh' for the first time in a long time. By fresh I mean we have no pre-existing evidence or basis. So there's going to be a lot of varying opinion until we get enough feats to compare, and then make better judgments. I mean just look at Jellal's durability. Some say it's rubbish, some say it's Laxus+. When we get the feats we'll now. Same goes for all facets/characters, more feats = better judgement.
