Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Arjuna]

Again, let's use some logic and NLF to account for haxes. If Neinhart can summon GS then he also can summon all the dragons from the GMG, and he can probably also summon Igneel, right? By that same token Dimaria can freeze time and kill Acnologia, August and Irene. And Jacob can transport Acnologia, August and Irene to his dimension and have them killed. And so on and so forth. No.

Hades and Ur were vastly inferior to God Serena. Hades is at best Warrod level and Ur is at best Makarov level.

I'm not overhyping Serena I'm being realistic. Neinhart didn't show any summoning that was above anything that the current main cast and powerhouses couldn't take care of.

Hades, Kyoka, Azuma, Ikaruga, Ur, Zancrow, Keyes and Ezel. These are REAL Neinhart's feats. Notice all of these characters are GoI tier or below, so God Serena can easily fodderize all of them. He can also dodge them all and go to Neinhart's main body. I mean, he defeated the GoI + Jura so easily, what makes you think he cannot defeat Hades (GoI tier), Kyoka, Ur (WS tier) and Azuma, Ikaruga, Zancrow, Keyes and Ezel (below WS tier) I think it'd only take one attack from him to do so.

Also, the GoI are widely accepted to be current Erza level. Ajeel would've beaten Erza with mid difficulty hadn't it been for Bisca+Jupiter. 3 Erzas + 1 Jura would've beaten Ajeel. But 3 Erzas + 1 Jura didn't even push God Serena to go all out. This is why God Serena is superior to Ajeel. And to Neinhart too.

We're not trying to create a power ranking accurate list. It'd be impossible to do so with little feats from some characters. We're always going to have dichotomies like "are the GoI weak because they lost to God Serena?" or "Is God Serena stronger than the average Spriggan because he beat the GoI?". A question like that will remain unanswered unless God Serena is not dead and fights again, we see a flashback of him fighting or the GoI fight again, or something like that.

Also, we need a databook that explains the limitations of the hax of Spriggans. That way we could end debates such as the "Neinhart can summon anyone who's dead", "Neinhart can only summon beings with lower MP than his" or "Neinhart can summon up to 10 characters at the same time" or "The sum of Neinhart's summonings' MP must be lower or equal to his MP" and so on.

In my opinion Bluenote was stronger than Ul and Hades to be stronger than Warrod as he was in the past and around the level of Hyberion.

 

[Axiomus]

I'm trying to understand your first paragraph,but it isn't adding up.
First off GS is below dragons in terms of power.

Neinharts power isn't brute force or nukes,but the ability to overpower his opponents with historias.If he had all the historia to fight with him against GS he would give a fair run for his money.
If he use water based attacks? UR freezes them
Fire? Zancrow
Earth?Azuma could create trees to catch them.
Air/Wind? Ezel cuts through it.
And the others could just attack,while the others channel their spell or just protect Neinhart.

Jura would be worth shit on the machine.He uses earth,but Erza fought him in the air,where no solid earth is present.
And yes,the GoI are fodder in my eyes.

God Serena would own Zancrow, Azuma, Ezel, and Ur without even resorting to his dragon slaying magic. Dragon Slaying magic was overkill against the Wizard Saints, and he literally only used up to half his elements.

Even if Ur froze God Serena's water, God Serena can just melt it again with his fire. God Serena has stronger flames than Zancrow, and he can resort to 7 other elements. Ezel is not cutting God Serena's winds if he couldn't cut Wendy's. Seriously, if Jura (who was a solid GMG Laxus tier) and 3 other mages his superior couldn't even defend themselves against God Serena, I doubt anybody mentioned her is going to be a viable meat-shield for Neinhart.

 

[Char]

Ie is Laxus performance v Wahl not good enough to be ranked similar to DiMaria?

That's hard to say. Remove age seal from the possibilities and Laxus definetely stands a chance. But, with age seal, he doesn't. Does that mean he's tiers below Dimaria, or that Dimaria's hax is overkill? Probably the latter.

I think Kagura did notice something, but it wasn't enough for he to actually know what happened. Tbh I think it's possible that you can notice/counter Age Seal through MP strength, but as it's not defined I give Age Seal the benefit of the doubt of time-stopping Laxus completely.

Agreed!

This is really splitting hairs. Grand Chariot took longer than Natsu's FDK move to use, yet Jellal is likely a Natsu-tier on feats. 1-2 seconds is still quick. Who would stop it if they didn't know, other than DiMaria?

Well I don't know but a couple of seconds may be too little time to people like us, but to characters like them, some of which move above the speed of sound and so on... One second is quite a lot, get me? I mean, if I was completely sure that upon joinin his hands, Jacob kills me; and I'm as fast as Laxus, then I definetely can do something about it. Or if I'm not that fast but I've got some kind of magic like Hyberion's, that seemingly paralyzes you... I'd use it right away.

Brandish shrunk Marin close to instant. Thought processes I assume are the same.

I know this is really going to be splitting hairs, but I think we could say that 'stopping time' or 'shrinking someone to a negligible size' are automatized thoughts, and work faster than 'I'm going to pinpoint x's heart and shrink it to the point he dies'.

Whereas shrinking someone like Dimaria might not be productive, because maybe she can still activate Age Seal even if she's the size of a cell... Shrinking her heart will make her die and unable to activate Age Seal... But before Brandish actually pinpoints her heart and shrinks it, time has already stopped and Brandish is dead. But when it comes to Jacob, Brandish might have a chance at shrinking his heart to the point she kills him before he joins the palms of his hands. Does it make sense?

I wouldn't assume Wahl would've been beaten easily, but easier yes. It really depends if you want to downplay Wahl or hype Laxus though. Earlier in the arc he dropped a nuke that August thought might wreck Ajeel, so I've been giving Laxus the benefit of the doubt thanks to that (ie assume Laxus is above 'regular' spriggan level, by a fair margin). That assumption does fit with Laxus winning how he did, and Wahl not being a weak Spriggan.

I don't aim at either downplaying Wahl or hyping Laxus. The thing is, if lightning isn't going to work against Wahl, he has to beat him by means of magicless punches and kicks. Laxu's cqc magicless abilities should be superhuman, but not enough to break through Wahl's durability (=Laxus cannot harm Wahl with bare punches and kicks). But now add him a kind of magic, any type, with the intensity of his MP, and then he should actually wreck Wahl. I mean, the only reason why Laxus wasn't harming Wahl was because his attacks weren't magic imbued, or they were immune magic imbued. Give him any other element and he wipes the floor with Wahl, I think.

I wouldn't put Laxus above regular spriggan level, I'd say that, haxes aside, he'd be the most proficient cqc-based spriggan (if he were one), alongside God Serena.

This is what I'm getting at with the hax countering. Lets pick 4 characters - August, Laxus, Wahl and Bradman.

Under the assumption that you need to counter a hax to be in the same tier, Wahl can counter Bradman for sure. August and Laxus can't. So Wahl > Bradman > Laxus.

Under the assumption that hype is correct and fight outcomes represent power ranking in some way, August > Laxus > Wahl.

If you combine the 2 lines of thinking, then it's obvious there's something wrong with one of them, as they conflict. I'd be more inclined to believe the first one is wrong.

Not really. In this case I'd say Wahl is a natural counter of Bradman's because he is not a human being/alive + he can render MBP particles useless. He's a counter as much as Laxus is a counter of any lightning magic. Even if a lightning magic is vastly more powerful than Laxus, Laxus can still win because he can absorb the enemy's lightning and become stronger. Does that mean Laxus > that mage? No. He might beat him, but he's still got more MP, better cqc abilities and so on and so forth.

In this case, Wahl can counter Bradman's hax. Does that put him above Bradman? No. Still, I believe Bradman to be above Wahl, but not for that.

So, I wouldn't say that fight outcomes represent power ranking AT ALL. For example, Erza beat Ajeel but Ajeel > Erza, TO Chelia beat Dimaria but Dimaria > TO Chelia, Tenrou Natsu beat Hades but Hades > Natsu.

I never really get the variety argument when it comes to beating someone strong.

Well I kind of get your point. Levy or Cana are two super versatile mages but still, their versatility won't help them defeat anyone from Wizard Saint tier on. But if Bradman was all MBP and that's it (which was what I initially thought), he'd still be classed Spriggan tier (because he cannot be hurt, and you can't get close to him without dying), and he wouldn't have many powerful attacks that he actually does have.

So, for example, imagine that Wahl turns out to be vulnerable to ice (we don't know, but think of such scenario). Bradman with only the MBP curse is powerless against Wahl. However, now, Bradman can potentially kill Wahl because he's got Silver's magic. Get me?

It's a toolshed analogy. Let's say you want to knock down a wall. What matters most? That you have tools for demolition, or that you have more tools?

It depends on what you want to do. Think of Elfman and Levy. Elfman is arguably way stronger than Levy. Elfman can break any wall you want, and Levy may not be able to. But Levy can do many things that Elfman cannot do.

By that same token, imagine Levy fighting a powerful enemy like Bradman. Think of this hypothetical scenario: Levy can create a mask that actually WORKS against MBP. And then she creates the word "tangible" and it turns out to be a weapon that actually works against Bradman and hypothetically, she ends up hurting Bradman way more than Elfman would. But Elfman is superior, right?

So, versatility helps.

My example is Laxus and Jellal. Laxus knows less spells, but can arguably use spells that rival Jellal's best. Jellal knowing bind snake or telekenesis wouldn't matter worth a damn in a fight like that. If someone says having more spells gives Jellal a better shot I'd ask why. What matters for Jellal is that he has powerful spells, not more spells.

Even if Jellal knows more spells, in this case, it comes down to the strongest they can use, because we're talking about one isolated kind of magic. Heavenly body magic is the basis of all of Jellal's spells, while Lightning is the basis of all Laxus' spells. Now, imagine that Jellal could use different kinds of magics at a level that rivals Jellal best Heavenly Body magic's spells. Then, no doubt I'd rank Jellal above Laxus.

This is my guess with GS. God Serena is underrated because the AoE of his attacks didn't seem to be powerful, but imagine he can create attacks that rival Laxus' or Natsu's best, and in varied different elements. Then he definetely is more powerful than Laxus or Natsu, right?

This could be true, I won't deny it. But his attacks aren't weak. His CQC is up there, probably the best on feats. The damage he did on Laxus rivals what Serena did to the GoI. Even if we equalise Laxus' durability with the GoI's, we get Wahl's 3 attacks ~ God Serena's 3 slayer spells, given Laxus was beaten up in much the same way. Of course Wahl got plot help with the sickness, while Serena actually overpowered his opponents, but I think it's also worth noting that none of the GoI can put up a fight like Laxus could. And again if the GoI ~ Laxus, then GS >> Wahl.

While this is true, remember that before going DF, Gajeel was actually being wrecked by Bradman, so his offense shouldn't be taken lightly.

As for the GoI argument, you already know how it works. There are two possibilities: either you consider them utter fodder, vastly below Laxus, and then you equalise Wahl and God Serena; or you decide they're not that weak, it's just that GS is too strong, and you claim GS >> Wahl. Both should be correct until we get some proof that GS = Wahl or that GoI are not as weak as some think.

How is Levy a plot hole?

She was the only one who was extremely close to Bradman and didn't die! How can you account for that?

If Jura ~ Bluenote, then wouldn't one Base Roar of Natsu's be equivalent to all of God Serena's attacks?

You could say that, but it's all very relative. On the one hand, you could argue Natsu's roar was not casual, it was full-powered because he acknowledged the danger of the enemy; whereas GS was just playing around.

On the other hand, if you don't like this argument, you can always claim that yeah, Base Natsu can actually output more power in one attack, but if Serena can successively burst attacks like he does, he eventually overpowers Base Natsu's roar, and ends up outputing similar or superior amount of damage.

However, I do believe Jura's durability to be superior to Bluenote's, and equal to the GoI, but I believe Bluenote's magic to be more haxy/superior/powerful

Jura endured the same stuff the GoI did, and went down at the same time. Even if we say the GoI have double the endurance of Jura, then 1 base roar of Natsu's is about the same as 2 of Serena's DS spells.

It's been widely argued. Yeah, Jura might be as durable as the GoI, but he very well may not. Maybe he received only part of the damaged, maybe, offpanel, he received less damage so he was fresher, whatever... it's hard to say! Since Mashima was going to fodderize the GoI either way he thought it was nonsense to make Jura still weaker than them haha

I do think GoI AND Jura's durability is above Bluenote's, though; I don't think they are falling as easily as BN did, but who knows.

Natsu has never done a FD Iron fist on the level of God Serena's Hellflame. Well not to my knowledge anyway. First time I saw it was against Zeref's army. Even the one against the War God was less (this is the first attack, not demolishing strike).

Well IMO Natsu's attack against the War God was more impressive than God Serena's attack, but I might be wrong here. I do recall Natsu's pre-timeskip attacks having more AoE than Hellflame's God Serena attack though. Which does not mean by any means pretimeskip Natsu is superior to GS, it only makes GS's attacks more concentrated and less AoE based.

I do agree. I think people shouldn't take too hard a stance. I do pick a stance, but if more stuff becomes available I have no problem changing.

So do I. I used to favor GS over Natsu to death. I still do think GS could beat Natsu, but I'm beginning to be reluctant to the idea Natsu isn't going to hurt GS. I'm beginning to think BDKM Natsu may actually outclass GS. So, yeah, we can always change our stance.

There is also another point that we need to consider and that is actually having a basis of feats in X792. Essentially the wealth of feats pre-skip are redundant. So we're left with assessing feats 'fresh' for the first time in a long time. By fresh I mean we have no pre-existing evidence or basis. So there's going to be a lot of varying opinion until we get enough feats to compare, and then make better judgments. I mean just look at Jellal's durability. Some say it's rubbish, some say it's Laxus+. When we get the feats we'll now. Same goes for all facets/characters, more feats = better judgement.

You couldn't be more right. Still, I don't think we'll see many feats from God Serena, Bradman or the GoI, hahaha

I'm trying to understand your first paragraph,but it isn't adding up.
First off GS is below dragons in terms of power.

First of all, GS, and many spriggans for that matter, should be above some dragons, and below some dragons. That's been argued before. God Serena could probably beat Motherglare.

Neinharts power isn't brute force or nukes,but the ability to overpower his opponents with historias.If he had all the historia to fight with him against GS he would give a fair run for his money.

So far, Neinhart's only summoned people who God Serena could fodderize. By powerscaling, Natsu fodderized Bluenote of one roar. God Serena can output similar levels of power so he's going to fodderize anyone who's Bluenote level~. And most of the mages who Neinhart has summoned are around Bluenote level. I only see Hades or Kyoka being superior to Bluenote. And still, they're not going to be a problem for him. I just can't see how you think 7 fodders are going to actually give GS a run for his money.

If he use water based attacks? UR freezes them
Fire? Zancrow
Earth?Azuma could create trees to catch them.
Air/Wind? Ezel cuts through it.
And the others could just attack,while the others channel their spell or just protect Neinhart.

Assuming GS does not oneshot. Or do you think Zancrow could actually give current Natsu any problems at all? No, he couldn't. Zancrow would be as fodderized from Natsu's roar as Bluenote was. So would Ur, Azuma and Ezel.

Jura would be worth shit on the machine.He uses earth,but Erza fought him in the air,where no solid earth is present.
And yes,the GoI are fodder in my eyes.

Jura is below current Erza and anything below current Erza is fodder, I agree. But the GoI are Erza tier and if the GoI are fodder, Erza is so. I don't blame you for thinking the GoI are fodder though, since they were pretty much fodderized.

 

[Axiomus]

Also, Neinhart does not use summoning magic. Or, at least there isn't a single case in the manga where his magic is referred to as summoning magic. Instead, Neinhart's himself says his magic is life-make. That would make him a molding mage.

Spoiler: My magic is Life Make - Neinhart

It was described as using his magical power to create physical bodies from his opponent's memories. If the target has a physical body with more magical power than Neinhart himself has, then Neinhart shouldn't be able to create it for the same reason Gray can't create an Ice-Clone with more magical power than himself. If you want to look at another person with magic extremely similar to Neinhart, look no further than Rustyrose. He was able to use arc of embodiment to create Zancrow and Azuma in the anime fillers. Does that mean we should assume he can use Arc of Embodiment to create Acnologia or Zeref? No, many of us would rightfully dismiss that idea as silly.

Now it's debatable if Neinhart would be able to create another Spriggan. If he could, then it should be near the limits of his magical power if all the Spriggans are close in power.

 

[PeanutButterJelly]

God Serena would own Zancrow, Azuma, Ezel, and Ur without even resorting to his dragon slaying magic. Dragon Slaying magic was overkill against the Wizard Saints, and he literally only used up to half his elements.

Even if Ur froze God Serena's water, God Serena can just melt it again with his fire. God Serena has stronger flames than Zancrow, and he can resort to 7 other elements. Ezel is not cutting God Serena's winds if he couldn't cut Wendy's. Seriously, if Jura (who was a solid GMG Laxus tier) and 3 other mages his superior couldn't even defend themselves against God Serena, I doubt anybody mentioned her is going to be a viable meat-shield for Neinhart.

The GoI are seriously over-hyped.
One is a tree who doesn't use any offensive spell and didn't bother to helo FT vs Tartaros.
One Jura who is strong,but some characters from FT would defeat him mid-low diff.
One is a hax Vampire who when he loses his balance can't use his magic or must use hand movement to use it.
One is a physical brawler with nothing more.
What would he be the use of melting a huge piller of ice? So he could again use water and it to be frozen again?
The point isn't to use them as meat-shields,but to counter his assults.

GS is certainly strong,but I doubt he is a "master" at using each element as someone who specializes at them.

 

[Axiomus]

The GoI are seriously over-hyped.
One is a tree who doesn't use any offensive spell and didn't bother to helo FT vs Tartaros.
One Jura who is strong,but some characters from FT would defeat him mid-low diff.
One is a hax Vampire who when he loses his balance can't use his magic or must use hand movement to use it.
One is a physical brawler with nothing more.
What would he be the use of melting a huge piller of ice? So he could again use water and it to be frozen again?
The point isn't to use them as meat-shields,but to counter his assults.

GS is certainly strong,but I doubt he is a "master" at using each element as someone who specializes at them.

Warrod had enough magical power to fight off a desert, and created a 2000km tree.
Jura was stated to be a match for Gildarts and gave Laxus an extremely high difficulty match. If you look at how much current Erza struggles with someone like Azuma or Ikaruga, you can get the sense that someone like Jura would still provide a significant challenge to most characters.
Hyperion impressed August with his ability to cast Vampyrism magic with no contact.
Since when is a physical brawler not impressive?

Serena could throw a wave at Ur, and then use his fire to boil it (similar to what Juvia was doing against Gray, only on a Spriggan-level). Remember what happened in Gray vs Juvia when Juvia boiled her water? Only instead of Gray eventually managing to overpower Juvia because he was stronger, Serena would solidly stomp Ur because Serena is stronger.

Serena was literally the strongest mage in Ishgar. If anyone was to be considered the master of a particular magic that they use, it would be him. If he participated in the GMG tournament a year ago, he probably could have soloed the entire thing. Wendy is a mage who couldn't even stand against Bluenote (who was also a mage that outclassed Zancrow within the ranks of Grimoire heart). Do you seriously want to make the argument that Wendy and Zancrow are more "masterful" at what they do than Serena?

 

[EmberSpirit]

Warrod had enough magical power to fight off a desert, and created a 2000km tree.
Jura was stated to be a match for Gildarts and gave Laxus an extremely high difficulty match. If you look at how much current Erza struggles with someone like Azuma or Ikaruga, you can get the sense that someone like Jura would still provide a significant challenge to most characters.
Hyperion impressed August with his ability to cast Vampyrism magic with no contact.
Since when is a physical brawler not impressive?

Serena could throw a wave at Ur, and then use his fire to boil it (similar to what Juvia was doing against Gray, only on a Spriggan-level). Remember what happened in Gray vs Juvia when Juvia boiled her water? Only instead of Gray eventually managing to overpower Juvia because he was stronger, Serena would solidly stomp Ur because Serena is stronger.

Warrod said he wasn't a good fighter.
Current Erza doesn't struggle against Azuma or Ikaruga. Azuma himself said she wasn't at her best. She was worse than Tenrou Erza there.

 

[Axiomus]

Warrod said he wasn't a good fighter.
Current Erza doesn't struggle against Azuma or Ikaruga. Azuma himself said she wasn't at her best. She was worse than Tenrou Erza there.

That doesn't change his MP, and that doesn't apply to the other 3.
Perhaps, Erza wasn't at her best due to her injuries against Ajeel. Still, Ajeel didn't do much other than dehydrate her and hit her with sand swords. Those type of injuries are something Serena can easily replicate.

 

[Char]

Some people here believe the GoI to be overhyped? On the contrary, they're severely downplayed. And that's only because of the treatment they received from God Serena.

Again, does it mean that they are fodder because a standard Spriggan level wizard wiped the floor with them, not even struggling?

Or does it mean that GS is above the average spriggan?

IMO, it should be the second. Come on, if 3 Erza level wizards + 1 Jura couldn't put up a fight against a wizard who's said to be at the same level of Ajeel, to whom Erza put up a proper fight... There's inconsistancy here, can't you see?

3 Erza level wizards + 1 Jura (GoI+Jura) should be above, or at the very least equal to Laxus... who, for the record, actually won against a regular Spriggan, when he was severely injured and handicapped, and to top it off, Wahl was a counter of his magic!

Warrod might've stated he's not quite the fighter, but Erza claimed he was just being humble. In terms of MP, Warrod probably tops even Laxus, and if he does not reach the Spriggan lvl category, it mustn't be by far. Old geezers in Fairy Tail are known to have vast amounts of MP.

Wolfheim seems to be an Elfman on steroids. Is that bad? Not at all. Elfman is not thaaaat weak anymore. After all, he managed to finish off a character who even her sister couldn't deal with (Shailah) + he's had 1 year of training. Still, Wolfheim seems to be the master of beast soul. He should be the most proficient Take Over user save Dimaria.

Hyberion seems to have a haxy magic, which comes handy since not many Ishgar mages have proper hax. He was extremely downplayed but I believe him to be capable of giving as much fight to a regular spriggan as Erza did to Ajeel, if not more.

 

[PeanutButterJelly]

Warrod had enough magical power to fight off a desert, and created a 2000km tree.
Jura was stated to be a match for Gildarts and gave Laxus an extremely high difficulty match. If you look at how much current Erza struggles with someone like Azuma or Ikaruga, you can get the sense that someone like Jura would still provide a significant challenge to most characters.
Hyperion impressed August with his ability to cast Vampyrism magic with no contact.
Since when is a physical brawler not impressive?

Serena could throw a wave at Ur, and then use his fire to boil it (similar to what Juvia was doing against Gray, only on a Spriggan-level). Remember what happened in Gray vs Juvia when Juvia boiled her water? Only instead of Gray eventually managing to overpower Juvia because he was stronger, Serena would solidly stomp Ur because Serena is stronger.

Serena was literally the strongest mage in Ishgar. If anyone was to be considered the master of a particular magic that they use, it would be him. If he participated in the GMG tournament a year ago, he probably could have soloed the entire thing. Wendy is a mage who couldn't even stand against Bluenote (who was also a mage that outclassed Zancrow within the ranks of Grimoire heart). Do you seriously want to make the argument that Wendy and Zancrow are more "masterful" at what they do than Serena?

Erza already beat a members of the Spirggan 12 and was pretty beaten.Although they are still weaker then her,you're understimating to power of teamwork and cooperation.This whole arc is about combining power to defeat the Spriggan.The same power defeated Erza,even thought in 1 vs1 they're to match for her.Although Erza managed to survive agaisnt them ,she ahd to faint,which left her open for Nienhart to finish her off.
Bein impresed doesn't equal = worthy. Wahl aknowledged Mira's macro,but still didn't bother to fight her or even viewed her as worthy.
But there's not only Ur ,but 8 other opponents to take care off.Even if the water is boiling Ur (as it had been stated) would have been a Wizard saint could probably freeze the water.
There's more to fight then just brute force or MP.Look at Mira vs Sayla,even thought there stronger characters than Mira,she was the only one who could have take care of Sayle,just because she was immune to her curse.

Master of particular magic? Some peopel have one and do you hoenstly believe he can wield all of his 8 elements the same as someone who specializes at them? I do think Ezel and Zancrow could counter him to some extent.

I'm not claiming GS to be inferior to the other Shield,but his best argument was he defeated the GOI in 2 rounds;1 unseen(and he somehow defeated themw ithout the use of DF) and the second he had to use 3 spells to leave them on the floor,but someone like DiMaria,Brandmann,Jacob would have done it in second.

 

[Axiomus]

Erza already beat a members of the Spirggan 12 and was pretty beaten.Although they are still weaker then her,you're understimating to power of teamwork and cooperation.This whole arc is about combining power to defeat the Spriggan.The same power defeated Erza,even thought in 1 vs1 they're to match for her.Although Erza managed to survive agaisnt them ,she ahd to faint,which left her open for Nienhart to finish her off.
Bein impresed doesn't equal = worthy. Wahl aknowledged Mira's macro,but still didn't bother to fight her or even viewed her as worthy.
But there's not only Ur ,but 8 other opponents to take care off.Even if the water is boiling Ur (as it had been stated) would have been a Wizard saint could probably freeze the water.
There's more to fight then just brute force or MP.Look at Mira vs Sayla,even thought there stronger characters than Mira,she was the only one who could have take care of Sayle,just because she was immune to her curse.

Master of particular magic? Some peopel have one and do you hoenstly believe he can wield all of his 8 elements the same as someone who specializes at them? I do think Ezel and Zancrow could counter him to some extent.

I'm not claiming GS to be inferior to the other Shield,but his best argument was he defeated the GOI in 2 rounds;1 unseen(and he somehow defeated themw ithout the use of DF) and the second he had to use 3 spells to leave them on the floor,but someone like DiMaria,Brandmann,Jacob would have done it in second.

Serena managed to steamroll the Ishgar Saints without even resorting to his dragon slaying magic. Jura alone was a match for GMG Laxus, whom was individually stronger than any of the Historia that Erza faced. The fact that Erza still found Azuma to be challenging is testament that someone like Jura would still provide a significant challenge.

August said he was impressed by Hyperion's ability to cast Vampyrism magic at a distance. Wahl took note of Macro, and called it one of the Emperor's little toys. Completely different reactions.

Gray had trouble freezing Juvia's boiling water, and he was stronger than her. Serena is downright stronger than Ur. Serena is not only a fully qualified wizard saint, but he's a wizard saint that beat the next 4 strongest wizard saints in a 4v1. Also, Serena has proven himself to be able to handle multiple opponents. There might be 8 other people he has to fight, but Serena only used 4 of his elements against the Ishgar Saints. In fact, only 3 attacks actually landed. His Gale Dragon Slayer attack was never actually thrown because the saints were already defeated.

Yeah, except you're saying Ezel is going to cut Serena's winds. So in this instance, brute force and MP is all that matters.

Serena defeated the 4 wizard saints in direct combat. I'm not saying Serena is stronger than any of the other Spriggans either. Just that he's the best when it comes to direct combat. Or one of the best, Wahl's up there as well. I'm also saying the characters you mentioned don't stand a chance against Serena. He's also the only Spriggan so far to have won against high-level opponents. Dimaria and Jacob might be able to take out the WS due to their ability to avoid direct combat, so I can give you that.

 

[Char]

Erza already beat a members of the Spirggan 12 and was pretty beaten.

Erza gave the final blow to a Spriggan but Erza is not even borderline spriggan lvl. She can probably give low to mid difficulty to a Spriggan, that's about it.

Although they are still weaker then her,you're understimating to power of teamwork and cooperation.

Erza should be GoI level so they're not necessarily weaker than her. I guess you meant "overestimating" and not under though.

But there's not only Ur ,but 8 other opponents to take care off.

Who can be one shot. Actually, all of them at once by a spriggan level tier attack. And definetely by GS who I think is superior to the Spriggan average.

Even if the water is boiling Ur (as it had been stated) would have been a Wizard saint could probably freeze the water.

Top S12 > High S12 (Serena is here) > Mid S12 > Low S12 > GoI > High WS > Mid WS (Ur is here) > Low WS

Serena would fodderize Ur easier than he fodderized Jura and co. Ur can DEFINETELY not freeze his water if he rises its temp. Invel, if he turns out to be an ice mage, MIGHT.

There's more to fight then just brute force or MP.Look at Mira vs Sayla,even thought there stronger characters than Mira,she was the only one who could have take care of Sayle,just because she was immune to her curse.

But in the end, it came down to the one who was stronger, right? Because Mira still miserably lost after Shaila released her limiter. And it was Elfman who landed the final blow. And Elfman is not stronger than Mira.

Master of particular magic? Some peopel have one and do you hoenstly believe he can wield all of his 8 elements the same as someone who specializes at them?

Yes, we do believe so. Otherwise, how would you account for how easily he defeated the GoI? Or you think Zancrow could beat any of the GoI? Jura would crap on Zancrow.

I do think Ezel and Zancrow could counter him to some extent.

Spoiler

I'm not claiming GS to be inferior to the other Shield,

If anything, superior. You're still failing to see the difference between 1 Erza vs 1 Shield (Ajeel) and 3 Erza lvl mages+Jura vs 1 Shield (GS)

but his best argument was he defeated the GOI in 2 rounds;1 unseen(and he somehow defeated themw ithout the use of DF) and the second he had to use 3 spells to leave them on the floor,but someone like DiMaria,Brandmann,Jacob would have done it in second.

Dimaria, yes.

Spoiler

Teeth click, everyone's dead

Jacob, maybe.

Spoiler

If he uses stealth so that he can't be tracked down and automatically uses spatial magic which can't be countered, then he wins even faster than GS. If he doesn't do it this way, then there's going to be a proper fight

Bradman, no.

Spoiler

Bradman is going to have to get close enough to the GoI + Jura to instantaneously kill them, and I think they're not going to be that stupid. As long as they keep a distance, there might be a fight or even a tactical fight attempting to know how to hurt him

 

[PeanutButterJelly]

Some people here believe the GoI to be overhyped? On the contrary, they're severely downplayed. And that's only because of the treatment they received from God Serena.

Again, does it mean that they are fodder because a standard Spriggan level wizard wiped the floor with them, not even struggling?

Or does it mean that GS is above the average spriggan?

IMO, it should be the second. Come on, if 3 Erza level wizards + 1 Jura couldn't put up a fight against a wizard who's said to be at the same level of Ajeel, to whom Erza put up a proper fight... There's inconsistancy here, can't you see?

3 Erza level wizards + 1 Jura (GoI+Jura) should be above, or at the very least equal to Laxus... who, for the record, actually won against a regular Spriggan, when he was severely injured and handicapped, and to top it off, Wahl was a counter of his magic!

GOI are couldn't have beaten any of the Spriggan.Aside from Irene and August(who are clearly on a different lvl) the other are evenly matched in terms of power,which excells in different situations.

IMO,Erza only won against Ajeel becuase of Bisca(who's first attack he deflected with a singel hand) and because she had somesort of water and winds magic,which counter his magic

Yeah Whal vs Laxus.Someone who's mahcine and analyzes his opponents ,forgets not to use lighting (which powers up his opponent)..

 

[Char]

GOI are couldn't have beaten any of the Spriggan.Aside from Irene and August(who are clearly on a different lvl) the other are evenly matched in terms of power,which excells in different situations.

IMO,Erza only won against Ajeel becuase of Bisca(who's first attack he deflected with a singel hand) and because she had somesort of water and winds magic,which counter his magic

Erza clearly won against Ajeel thanks to Bisca. Erza wouldn't have beaten Ajeel hadn't Bisca been there. She could've given him some difficulty, mid difficulty I guess.

Imagine Erza fighting Ajeel completely alone. How far does she get before dying? What level of difficulty does she give Ajeel? Mid difficulty?

Imagine you've got now 3 Erzas fighting Ajeel simultaneously. What do you think would happen? In your opinion, would the Erzas beat Ajeel? Would they give him more difficulty? High or extreme maybe? Would they still lose?

If you answered "3 Erzas would defeat Ajeel", then the GoI+Jura can beat a Spriggan.
If you answered "3 Erzas would give Ajeel arguably more difficulty than 1 Erza, but they'd still lose", then the GoI+Jura can give high-extreme diff to a spriggan.
If you answered "nothing would change", then you're claiming the GoI+Jura could give mid difficulty to a spriggan.

We're not talking about GS here, other spriggans.

Yeah Whal vs Laxus.Someone who's mahcine and analyzes his opponents ,forgets not to use lighting (which powers up his opponent)..

But that is not Laxus' problem, it's Wahl's. If Wahl is not a perfect machine and it makes mistakes like that, then it only downplays him. Similarly, the fact Bradman could've used macro or other haxy curses but he didn't only downplays him. You can be capable of using something, but if you end up not using it, then you're not so good, get me?

 

[PeanutButterJelly]

Erza gave the final blow to a Spriggan but Erza is not even borderline spriggan lvl. She can probably give low to mid difficulty to a Spriggan, that's about it.

Erza should be GoI level so they're not necessarily weaker than her. I guess you meant "overestimating" and not under though.

Who can be one shot. Actually, all of them at once by a spriggan level tier attack. And definetely by GS who I think is superior to the Spriggan average.

Top S12 > High S12 (Serena is here) > Mid S12 > Low S12 > GoI > High WS > Mid WS (Ur is here) > Low WS

Serena would fodderize Ur easier than he fodderized Jura and co. Ur can DEFINETELY not freeze his water if he rises its temp. Invel, if he turns out to be an ice mage, MIGHT.

But in the end, it came down to the one who was stronger, right? Because Mira still miserably lost after Shaila released her limiter. And it was Elfman who landed the final blow. And Elfman is not stronger than Mira.

Yes, we do believe so. Otherwise, how would you account for how easily he defeated the GoI? Or you think Zancrow could beat any of the GoI? Jura would crap on Zancrow.

Spoiler

If anything, superior. You're still failing to see the difference between 1 Erza vs 1 Shield (Ajeel) and 3 Erza lvl mages+Jura vs 1 Shield (GS)



Dimaria, yes.

Spoiler

Teeth click, everyone's dead

Jacob, maybe.

Spoiler

If he uses stealth so that he can't be tracked down and automatically uses spatial magic which can't be countered, then he wins even faster than GS. If he doesn't do it this way, then there's going to be a proper fight

Bradman, no.

Spoiler

Bradman is going to have to get close enough to the GoI + Jura to instantaneously kill them, and I think they're not going to be that stupid. As long as they keep a distance, there might be a fight or even a tactical fight attempting to know how to hurt him

Never claimed that Erza is spriggan tier.Ajeel even fought in the air ,imagine if he had fought on the ground,that would have been better for his parsenal.
No,I meant underastimating the teamwork of Azuma,Ikagura and Kyuoka.Evene if Erza was at full streanght they simply overpowered her.
UR for now has better feats then 2-3 of the GOI. As it seems like GS has to fight two rounds and use 3 spells to bring them down in the second round,while someone like Ajeel nearly defeated Natsu,Erza,Gray,Wendy,Ludy,Mest,Makarov and the cats with his sandwave,if it weren't for Laxus.

Why wouldn't Ur be able to freeze water? She whas shwon to cause the temperature drop by just her presence.
But it was Mira ability which caused Elfman to attack Sayla,so it was more of a team effort.

He is no way superior to the average spriggan.

You're making the Brandmann argument just up.If they don't get close he may not be able to defeat them,but neither could they.He has shwon to be able to just turn into paritcles and evade physical attacks(which means Jura rock,Warrods tree and Wolfheims attacks),the only one left is the vampire who's range has to be shown.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 2, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 2, 2016 ---

Erza clearly won against Ajeel thanks to Bisca. Erza wouldn't have beaten Ajeel hadn't Bisca been there. She could've given him some difficulty, mid difficulty I guess.

Imagine Erza fighting Ajeel completely alone. How far does she get before dying? What level of difficulty does she give Ajeel? Mid difficulty?

Imagine you've got now 3 Erzas fighting Ajeel simultaneously. What do you think would happen? In your opinion, would the Erzas beat Ajeel? Would they give him more difficulty? High or extreme maybe? Would they still lose?

If you answered "3 Erzas would defeat Ajeel", then the GoI+Jura can beat a Spriggan.
If you answered "3 Erzas would give Ajeel arguably more difficulty than 1 Erza, but they'd still lose", then the GoI+Jura can give high-extreme diff to a spriggan.
If you answered "nothing would change", then you're claiming the GoI+Jura could give mid difficulty to a spriggan.

We're not talking about GS here, other spriggans.



But that is not Laxus' problem, it's Wahl's. If Wahl is not a perfect machine and it makes mistakes like that, then it only downplays him. Similarly, the fact Bradman could've used macro or other haxy curses but he didn't only downplays him. You can be capable of using something, but if you end up not using it, then you're not so good, get me?

This rules can't actually be apllied.You're .ranking by status and MP alone,rather then by the abilites they can use and utilize in situations.
Think of it this way:You could have send Erza,Laxus,Natsu,Makarov,Jella vs Brandmann and he would still have won.

Laxus vs Whal and Gajeel vs Brandmann give me such headache. The Nakampower, the enemy who's a machine using lighting to replenish his oppoents power and not using macro.Those are mere plotholes made so the main cast can actaully defeat them.

 

[Char]

Never claimed that Erza is spriggan tier.Ajeel even fought in the air ,imagine if he had fought on the ground,that would have been better for his parsenal.

True

No,I meant underastimating the teamwork of Azuma,Ikagura and Kyuoka.Evene if Erza was at full streanght they simply overpowered her.

Teamwork is important, but Azuma+Ikaruga+Kyouka 'should' theoretically give full-powered current Erza the same problems as the Goi+Jura gave God Serena.

UR for now has better feats then 2-3 of the GOI.

Uh... no. Precisely, the reason why we can't rank the GoI is because of lack of feats. For example, you might say: Yes, Wolfheim only showed punching GS on the face and not even scratching him. Alright, but we don't know GS's durability. And even if his durability happen to be on par with other Spriggans' (I believe his to be above other Spriggans'), still, Ur hasn't fought a Spriggan. And so on and so forth.

So, by hype and portrayal, Ur is at best mid WS, while GoI are... well, GoI, a couple of tiers above.

As it seems like GS has to fight two rounds and use 3 spells to bring them down in the second round,while someone like Ajeel nearly defeated Natsu,Erza,Gray,Wendy,Ludy,Mest,Makarov and the cats with his sandwave,if it weren't for Laxus.

You can't use that argument. First of all, they weren't trying to fight they were trying to escape. Particularly Makarov, he was who, due to his overprotectiveness, almost kills them. Ajeel was then eventually matched by Erza, who alone gave him some difficulty. Add Bisca to the equation and they beat a Spriggan.

So, Natsu+Erza+Gray+Wendy+Lucy+Mest+Makarov+Cats >>> average spriggan like Ajeel.

On another note, if you want to take that into account, that only proves that the GoI actually have rather good durability after resisting 2 Dragon slaying attacks from GS (not a third though), when Natsu and co were overpowered by Ajeel!

Why wouldn't Ur be able to freeze water?

Ur is definetely capable of freezing water. However, mages' water is imbued in MP. Aquarius, Juvia, God Serena... They all are known for using water-based attacks imbued in MP.

Juvia has also been known to alter the temperature of that water according to her emotions, to the extent she was capable of boiling that water, and making Gray unable to freeze it, until Gray got serious and, since Gray > Juvia, he managed to freeze it regardless.

Ur's not going to be that lucky, since she is a few tiers below God Serena. That water is boiling and has so strong a MP in it that she can't even make it drop a few degrees.

She whas shwon to cause the temperature drop by just her presence.

So, what. Natsu could evaporate a lake and burn the ground by his sheer presence. Anyone from WS tier on has enough MP so as to emanate a magic aura. If that mage specializes in ice, it's normal she can emanate an icey aura. That doesn't mean a thing...

But it was Mira ability which caused Elfman to attack Sayla,so it was more of a team effort.

I 100% agree, however, Etherious Shaila speedblitzed Mirajane, and then that same character couldn't dodge Elfman.

He is no way superior to the average spriggan.

It's up to opinion, I respect yours. There are people who claim that Dimaria's ability doesn't put her above, say, Ajeel. IMHO, it does.

You're making the Brandmann argument just up.If they don't get close he may not be able to defeat them,but neither could they.

Maybe Wolfheim couldn't, since he's a cqc specialist and he may not know any other kind of magic, but how could you be so sure that Hyberion's magic does not work at a certain distance? And remember, Warrod can """"fight""""" at 2000 km far XD as in, his attacks 'can' reach 2000 km distance.

He has shwon to be able to just turn into paritcles and evade physical attacks(which means Jura rock,Warrods tree and Wolfheims attacks),the only one left is the vampire who's range has to be shown.

Yeah... But again, NLF. Gajeel wasn't capable of hurting him at all since he dispersed his own body similarly to Keyes. Does that mean no character can actually hurt him? I don't think so. Look at how Juvia defeated Keyes. Then, DF Gajeel managed to hurt Bradman. Why? Because he was vastly stronger than his base self? Then, if DF Gajeel's punching could hurt Bradman, I don't see why someone else's punches (which are as strong as DF Gajeel's) wouldn't. Wolfheim, for that matter. We do not know the strength of his punches, but being a GoI and specializing in sheer CQC, they should be damn strong.

This rules can't actually be apllied.You're .ranking by status and MP alone,rather then by the abilites they can use and utilize in situations.
Think of it this way:You could have send Erza,Laxus,Natsu,Makarov,Jella vs Brandmann and he would still have won.

I am not so sure. DF Gajeel's blows were so strong that Bradman was tangible to him. What makes you think Laxus' wouldn't? Besides, Bradman seems to be a dark magic specialist/curse specialist and apparently light magic is effective against it (talking about Makarov here). So, I wouldn't be so sure about that claim.

If you'd said Dimaria, then I'd agree. But she's another story.

Laxus vs Whal and Gajeel vs Brandmann give me such headache. The Nakampower, the enemy who's a machine using lighting to replenish his oppoents power and not using macro.Those are mere plotholes made so the main cast can actaully defeat them.

I agree. They might have the skill to take their enemies down, but if they're not going to use it, they might as well be classed below them. So, for me, the fact that Wahl gave Laxus his electricity only makes me see Wahl as weaker, because he's just dumb. Similarly, the fact that Bradman can use macro but doesn't use it makes me think of him as WEAKER than if he couldn't actually use it. Because he's DUMB not to. haha

 

[Ebony Maw]

Yeah... But again, NLF. Gajeel wasn't capable of hurting him at all since he dispersed his own body similarly to Keyes. Does that mean no character can actually hurt him? I don't think so. Look at how Juvia defeated Keyes. Then, DF Gajeel managed to hurt Bradman. Why? Because he was vastly stronger than his base self? Then, if DF Gajeel's punching could hurt Bradman, I don't see why someone else's punches (which are as strong as DF Gajeel's) wouldn't. Wolfheim, for that matter. We do not know the strength of his punches, but being a GoI and specializing in sheer CQC, they should be damn strong.

I agree with the rest of your post (your posting is on point today, keep it up, I like reading them) but that wasn't why Gajeel could hit him, Bradman flat out says that the reason Gajeel could hit him was because he changed his magics properties after consuming the MBP's. As much as the explanation was utter bullcrap that's the canon reason. (Because poison makes you stronger )

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Please. Neinhart main ability is his Historia of the Dead, not energy blasts.

It doesn't matter what his main ability is. You made the claim that he cannot engage in direct combat. The fact is he can... It's just that he's not on the level of the other Spriggans. If you still believe he is and that they're all equal (given the feats), then we'll just disagree here.

This is how Jacob reacted to God Serena defeating his fellow Wizard Saints:

This is his reaction to Acnologia defeating God Serena:

But if you look at the picture after this one, you'd see that he was so angry and willing to fight Acnologia.

Spoiler

This guy doesn't know his limits and bluffs a lot. It was to the point that August had to step in just to prevent Jacob from getting slaughtered.

 

[Fox666]

It doesn't matter what his main ability is. You made the claim that he cannot engage in direct combat. The fact is he can... It's just that he's not on the level of the other Spriggans. If you still believe he is and that they're all equal (given the feats), then we'll just disagree here.

I said Neinhart magic is not for direct combat, and it isn't. His main ability is his Historia of the Dead. If you are going to measure how powerful characters are based on their hand-to-hand combat, them sure, Neinhart is not as powerfull as God Serena. But I don't see why Historia of the Dead would not count.

 

[Char]

I agree with the rest of your post (your posting is on point today, keep it up, I like reading them) but that wasn't why Gajeel could hit him, Bradman flat out says that the reason Gajeel could hit him was because he changed his magics properties after consuming the MBP's. As much as the explanation was utter bullcrap that's the canon reason. (Because poison makes you stronger )

Hahaha the explanation was certainly such utter bullcrap I ended up forgetting it! But thanks for the reminder, then my argument is totally pointless on that regard :P

Thank you, I love to debate power scales and so on, even if they don't make much sense in this manga sometimes...