Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[The President]

We don't know if Irene will truly be able to do something to Acnologia.

That's fair but given the build up I am sure she will at least do something. At least to impede Acno in some way and stop him from killing everyone around them. Plus, she herself is important to the plot so she won't be dying either.

August and Irene are only considered the most powerful mages of the current time, not necessarily of all time. We don't know what the mages were like 400 years ago. That said, I think your list is pretty solid. I believe that you need to be a pretty much a Spriggan level dragon slayer to slay a dragon, so I don't really have a problem with putting August and Irene above some dragons.

I disagree. Warrod explicitly states that August is regarded as the strongest Mage past and present. Mind you that Zeref is considered an immortal (a third party in a way) not a real Mage so I'm assuming he is exempt from that hype. August >= Irene.

One way to look at it is IgNatsu is essentially how strong Igneel might be in human form (I say might because we don't know how much power there was, and it's not an easy correlation to make). That amount of power can overwhelm Zeref, to the point that Zeref's magic is burned up. Physically though, IgNatsu is nothing like Igneel. Zeref was able to inflict a nasty wound to his face. Human Acnologia would be above IgNatsu, but not by a great deal. Igneel and Acnologia (dragon/DF) are obviously much stronger than that again.

Fair assessment. But I want to point out that physicality is all dragons really have (or use), sure they have a roar but that doesn't do much in as far as versatility goes. Magic like Sand World can often give overwhelming advantages even for a physically inept character (not that Ajeel is physically inept).

Though on that note, I don't want to overestimate a dragons physicality either. Zilconis was hurt by GMG Wendys roar (albeit not by much), if he wasnt resistant to normal magic even the likes of Jura would be doing some heavy damage with his stronger attacks.

Laxus' reaction speed is top notch indeed (hypersonic, capable of dodging bullets) and he certainly was capable of dealing with Wahl, with some difficults due to him being handicapped. He was able to overcome his "disease" though, and that's where he won. He didn't win the fight by a large margin so I'd like to think Laxus is low-to-mid-tier Spriggan at most.
Indeed, Hades is powerful. Without his heart (as Laxus fought him) he's even stronger than Makarov. Wizard Saint level no doubt. But he was just a projection and we don't know (or do we? :S maybe we do) if these projections hold 100% of the powress villains had when last fought. For example, Hades' resistance feats were impressive back in Tenroujima, to the extent he was beaten with very high difficulty by a combination of a team in which Laxus and Natsu (not to mention Erza) were protagonists; I consider him stronger than Neinhart so I think Neinhart's magic has limitations (i.e. cannot project anyone stronger than him, or project him with limitations).

It was a high-diff fight because Laxuses disease had destroyed his body and was paralyzing him at times to allow Wahl to get in free-hits. On top of that, Wahl was immune to lightning so Laxus had to resort to physical strength, something which wouldn't go well for most against a Spriggan.

No reason to assume that the projections weren't at full strength. Ur was toying with Gray and Lyon till the end, Lyon even implied she was as strong as ever at one point. Erza was getting tossed around by characters she had beaten long ago (albeit she herself was still injured). Juvia was struggling with Keith etc......

However, God Serena is a DS who seemingly excels at many kinds of DS magic, including, most likely, fire and lightning DS magic.

Excels is an overstatement, his individual DS magic doesn't seem to pack that much of a punch. It took a handful to take out a badly injured Jura.

We should see how well Hyberion does against Wahl, or how nicely Laxus fights Serena before making a conclusion.

That won't ever happen though.....

And DFKM Natsu is indeed an extremely powerful character; maybe the strongest mague from Ishgar.

To be fair, Natsu couldn't use any of his flashy fire moves because they were inside the guild when the majority of the fight took place. It was essentially a full power Jacob Vs CQC-only Natsu and Lucy. If Natsu had been allowed to use his fire moves, I honestly don't think he would have needed to use FDK moves, let alone the mode.

 

[Brandish μ]

Fair assessment. But I want to point out that physicality is all dragons really have (or use), sure they have a roar but that doesn't do much in as far as versatility goes. Magic like Sand World can often give overwhelming advantages even for a physically inept character (not that Ajeel is physically inept).

Though on that note, I don't want to overestimate a dragons physicality either. Zilconis was hurt by GMG Wendys roar (albeit not by much), if he wasnt resistant to normal magic even the likes of Jura would be doing some heavy damage with his stronger attacks.

Sure we can say physicality is all they have, and I agree to some extent. I mean their roars are basically all they do outside their physical ability in fights, and well not many mages can replicate that level of destructive power anyway.

Ajeel's sandword is a huge spell in the context of a wizards ability. He's top 13 in Alvarez, probably top 20 in the Earthland (as we know it). So there's not many people who can pull this off, yet for a dragon that type of spell might not be much of a bother. Even a dragon like Zilconis has a better than good chance of crushing a Spriggan like Ajeel. I felt Zilconis being hurt by Wendy was to demonstrate the effectiveness of DS magic (Mira was completely ineffective just prior). It took AF empowered Natsu to actually KO a dragon in the end.

I don't want to be too heavy on dragon > humans, because you do make good points. But I think their physicality can't be underestimated either, in fact I believe it's what puts them ahead of humans easily. For instance Igneel's full-powered roar can't damage Acnologia, yet brawling is more effective, and a bite can take an arm. Igneel's roar however is probably not something I'd wager any human can perform. If IgNatsu had a roar I'd say it might come close to Igneel's roar. So even IgNatsu's amount of power would be meaningless in a fight against Acnologia, but Igneel's physical ability pushed Acno to extreme high-diff.

 

[Cosmicstar]

Neinhart is wayyy too high. His magic can be taken care of easily.

Gray/Lyon was struggling with Ur. Meredy/Juvia was struggling with Zancrow and Keith, Wendy with Ezel, and Laxus with Hades. He only brought back 1 opponent for each of them but seen with Erza he can bring back multiple opponents. Let that have been Rufus/Deloria/Silver/Ur/Ultear vs Gray/Lyon and they would have been toast. I mean they struggled alone with Ur. Let that have been Chelia/Keith/Gray vs Juvia should would have been destroyed. If he focused his energy on just 1 opponent who Isn't ERZA then they would have a hard time defeating him.

 

[Static]

Gray/Lyon was struggling with Ur. Meredy/Juvia was struggling with Zancrow and Keith, Wendy with Ezel, and Laxus with Hades. He only brought back 1 opponent for each of them but seen with Erza he can bring back multiple opponents. Let that have been Rufus/Deloria/Silver/Ur/Ultear vs Gray/Lyon and they would have been toast. I mean they struggled alone with Ur. Let that have been Chelia/Keith/Gray vs Juvia should would have been destroyed. If he focused his energy on just 1 opponent who Isn't ERZA then they would have a hard time defeating him.

Gray was psychologically holding back. As soon as he and Lyon got the will to fight, they defeated Ur. Meredy and Juvia are understandable. Wendy and Laxus were heavily wounded before in their fights against Dimaria and Wahl respectively. Erza was also injured in her fight with Ajeel and even her opponents note that she isn't in good condition.

What do you mean by struggled with Ur alone? Ur is a pretty powerful mage. Also, he cannot bring back Rufus, Ultear, Chelia, Gray as they are still alive.

Not to mention, Neinhart has some pretty shit durability.

 

[Char]

Sure we can say physicality is all they have, and I agree to some extent. I mean their roars are basically all they do outside their physical ability in fights, and well not many mages can replicate that level of destructive power anyway.

Ajeel's sandword is a huge spell in the context of a wizards ability. He's top 13 in Alvarez, probably top 20 in the Earthland (as we know it). So there's not many people who can pull this off, yet for a dragon that type of spell might not be much of a bother. Even a dragon like Zilconis has a better than good chance of crushing a Spriggan like Ajeel. I felt Zilconis being hurt by Wendy was to demonstrate the effectiveness of DS magic (Mira was completely ineffective just prior). It took AF empowered Natsu to actually KO a dragon in the end.

I don't want to be too heavy on dragon > humans, because you do make good points. But I think their physicality can't be underestimated either, in fact I believe it's what puts them ahead of humans easily. For instance Igneel's full-powered roar can't damage Acnologia, yet brawling is more effective, and a bite can take an arm. Igneel's roar however is probably not something I'd wager any human can perform. If IgNatsu had a roar I'd say it might come close to Igneel's roar. So even IgNatsu's amount of power would be meaningless in a fight against Acnologia, but Igneel's physical ability pushed Acno to extreme high-diff.

I don't think it just comes down to phisicality. If that was so, Brandish (or August, who's implied of being capable of using Brandish's magic), could shrink a dragon to the point they're relegated a non-factor (for Brandish was able of shrinking an entire island). But I "bet" it's not that easy. If that was possible, wouldn't Brandish be a Dragon Slayer as well? But she's not. Similarly, Dimaria's timestop would be able to halt the Dragons' long enough, and in the meanwhile, have them killed. But I don't think that'd be an option either.

I think that beyond being Magic Power tanks and beyond their phisicality, they have "magic inmunity" to any kind of attack that is not Dragon Slaying magic. For example, Wendy is indeed way less powerful than Mira, and still, she was able to "arguably" damage Zirconis, while Mira could not.

So my guess is that in order to be able to damage or even beat a dragon, you must be a Spriggan-class dragon slayer. Not just a Spriggan-class mague.

Gray/Lyon was struggling with Ur. Meredy/Juvia was struggling with Zancrow and Keith, Wendy with Ezel, and Laxus with Hades. He only brought back 1 opponent for each of them but seen with Erza he can bring back multiple opponents. Let that have been Rufus/Deloria/Silver/Ur/Ultear vs Gray/Lyon and they would have been toast. I mean they struggled alone with Ur. Let that have been Chelia/Keith/Gray vs Juvia should would have been destroyed. If he focused his energy on just 1 opponent who Isn't ERZA then they would have a hard time defeating him.

Neinheart is weak for a Spriggan and there's no valid excuse. He was capable of bringing Hades (without heart) and Ur, two entities probably more powerful one on one than the very Spriggan. His magic is 'dangerous', but he is weak and defenseless. He was the most easily beaten spriggan thus far. While Jellal is "Laxus class" or "Laxus-tier", Laxus beat Wahl with very high difficulty, whereas a bloodlusted Jellal was capable of OHKOing Neinheart.

Neinheart was able to create powerful entities that gave some trouble to our protagonists, but they weren't overwhelmed as Erza was against Ajeel or as the four saints were against Serena, or as DF Wendy + Grownup Chelia + Urtear were against Dimaria.

Your point would be valid if it was proven, but the fact that Neinheart didn't summon Rufus, Deliora, Silver, Ur or Ultear is probably because he could not. Appart from the fact he can only summon dead foes, and Rufus or Ultear are not dead; he probably can't summon entities more powerful than himself (that's arguable, since IN MY OPINION, Ur or Hades were stronger than him... Probably he had more MP though, which is all that counts).

They struggled with Ur because there was an emotional factor which prevented them from fighting all out, because Gray wasn't even using his full strength (no DS mode), come on, Gray wasn't even eating Ur's ice, which he can eat by now in order to power up + avoid her attacks. Besides, Ur is above Silver so they "should" struggle against her. After all, she was considered Saint level, and she was their master. But they weren't overwhelmed at any moment.

Chelia or Gray are not dead so they cannot be summoned to fight Juvia. In the event they were, Chelia does not pose that much of a threat (unless grown-up), as Juvia is a superior mague if compared to her (see GMG statistics). Juvia is pretty much on her prime, but not Chelia (well, now... she won't ever be a mague again unfortunately.) Gray would obviously be overkill against Juvia, not only skill-wise but for the emotional factor, but as already said, Neinhart is limited to dead entities.

And your theory of "focusing", as in if he focuses on the foes he creates for one opponent, they are more skilled/stronger, I think that theory is wrong. He does not "control" his magic as such, it has "personality", it moves on its own. So no, he was not "focused" on Erza, all of his projections had the same focus. The fact Erza's seemed to be tougher is because she was wounded, and they were three powerful foes.

 

[Axiomus]

Well I definitely think the physical attributes of a dragon's body is its greatest asset. That's why dragon force is a dragon slayer's strongest ability. It's magic that dragonizes their body. A single punch with barely any fire outclasses an LFD punch with lots of fire and lightning. Dragons are magical creatures, and I think a large part of their magic goes into fortifying their physical bodies.

I don't think dragons have total magical immunity. However, I do think they have evolved a high resistance to magical attacks. This is because all dragons can use dragon slayer magic. They're constantly fighting each other with the magic that is the most effective against each other. After several generations of natural selection, the dragons would be so used to fighting other dragons who can all use dragon slaying magic that everything else would just seem weak.

As far as I'm concerned, Ur is somewhere between Jose and GMG Jura, and Gray and Lyon mid-diffed her.

 

[Brandish μ]

I don't think it just comes down to phisicality. If that was so, Brandish (or August, who's implied of being capable of using Brandish's magic), could shrink a dragon to the point they're relegated a non-factor (for Brandish was able of shrinking an entire island). But I "bet" it's not that easy. If that was possible, wouldn't Brandish be a Dragon Slayer as well? But she's not. Similarly, Dimaria's timestop would be able to halt the Dragons' long enough, and in the meanwhile, have them killed. But I don't think that'd be an option either.

I think that beyond being Magic Power tanks and beyond their phisicality, they have "magic inmunity" to any kind of attack that is not Dragon Slaying magic. For example, Wendy is indeed way less powerful than Mira, and still, she was able to "arguably" damage Zirconis, while Mira could not.

So my guess is that in order to be able to damage or even beat a dragon, you must be a Spriggan-class dragon slayer. Not just a Spriggan-class mague.

I agree, there are more aspects to dragons than physicality, I just think that their physicality is the best thing they have.

A hax like Brandish' would need to work on a dragon. Can it? I'm not sure. She probably can't shrink August. DiMaria could freeze time against a dragon, but then she'd have no means of defeating it, because offensively her power isn't going to get the job done. With a hax, because they break the rules so to speak, I tend not to get too caught up in their possibilities, and I find it easier to discuss the straight up offense vs physical toughness because we can see it. I get your point though that their not just all-physical, and dragons can use magic too. As for the dragon slayer query, well that depends on the definition and context. In this manga I'd say being a dragon slayer means you use dragon slayer magic.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are dragons immune to magic? Tbh I think DS magic is more effective against dragons compared to normal magic, just like other slayer magics have shown to be. Mira couldn't hurt Zilconis because she's just nowhere near the level of hurting him. But I'd say if Wahl used Etherion (and I don't know how strong it is), I think he could hurt Zilconis. The big difference in the slayer advantage with DS magic and GS/DeS magic is that dragons themselves are much tougher than Gods or Demons.

I do agree you need DS magic to beat dragons, and being a Spriggan level-DS wizard would probably get it done. God Serena, Laxus and Natsu would be able to defeat dragons like Zilconis imo.

--- Double Post Merged, May 23, 2016, Original Post Date: May 23, 2016 ---

Dragons are magical creatures, and I think a large part of their magic goes into fortifying their physical bodies.

I don't think it's stated anywhere, but I think this also applies to humans too. Well, generally speaking, the more powerful wizards have greater durability. So I think it would be like this for dragons too, just their body is much bigger/stronger/tougher.

 

[The President]

Ajeel's sandword is a huge spell in the context of a wizards ability. He's top 13 in Alvarez, probably top 20 in the Earthland (as we know it). So there's not many people who can pull this off, yet for a dragon that type of spell might not be much of a bother. Even a dragon like Zilconis has a better than good chance of crushing a Spriggan like Ajeel. I felt Zilconis being hurt by Wendy was to demonstrate the effectiveness of DS magic (Mira was completely ineffective just prior). It took AF empowered Natsu to actually KO a dragon in the end.

Its true that not many mages can pull Sand World off but if a dragon did not have an innate counter to it (in the form of scent) then it would be extremely tedious to deal with. If Ajeel put the MP used to make Sand World into an offensive attack, even with magic resistance, a dragon would likely be damaged.

Mira actually did budge Zilconis, and Mira was complete fodder in comparison to current power levels. Especially when its a mere punch of hers. Dragon Slaying Magic allows the users to take on dragon-like properties, so they negate magic resistance and level the playing field which is why Zilconis was damaged by Wendys attack. If Laxus wasn't already very battle worn when he stepped-up to face Zilconis I think he could have done some damage. If Current Erza had dragon slaying magic I think someone of her level would be sufficient to take out a dragon of Zilconises caliber.

I don't want to be too heavy on dragon > humans, because you do make good points. But I think their physicality can't be underestimated either, in fact I believe it's what puts them ahead of humans easily. For instance Igneel's full-powered roar can't damage Acnologia, yet brawling is more effective, and a bite can take an arm. Igneel's roar however is probably not something I'd wager any human can perform. If IgNatsu had a roar I'd say it might come close to Igneel's roar. So even IgNatsu's amount of power would be meaningless in a fight against Acnologia, but Igneel's physical ability pushed Acno to extreme high-diff.

I agree that physicality is a dragons greatest asset but I wouldn't say no human can replicate the roar that Igneel used. It seemed rather casual. More importantly though Igneel is dragon king level, there aren't any other dragons outside of Acnologia and perhaps the other dragon kings that existed 400 years ago who are even remotely close to Igneels level. I wouldn't use Igneel as a point of comparison. Its literally the same thing as comparing Acnologia to Motherglare.

 

[Axiomus]

I don't think it's stated anywhere, but I think this also applies to humans too. Well, generally speaking, the more powerful wizards have greater durability. So I think it would be like this for dragons too, just their body is much bigger/stronger/tougher.

Well, it wasn't explicitly stated. However, I based this assumption off the fact that a dragon's magic is intrinsically linked to their biology. Human magic relies on learning spells and the such, but a dragon has their magic as part of their physical make-up. I think the difference between humans and dragons is that dragons developed magic as part of their species, and humans merely adopted it. Magic is also pretty rare among the humans. Only 10% of the population are capable of being mages. On the flip side, dragon's are inseparable from their magic, and their species operates on the level where pretty much the weakest adult dragon can pass for a high level human mage.

 

[Brandish μ]

Its true that not many mages can pull Sand World off but if a dragon did not have an innate counter to it (in the form of scent) then it would be extremely tedious to deal with. If Ajeel put the MP used to make Sand World into an offensive attack, even with magic resistance, a dragon would likely be damaged.

Mira actually did budge Zilconis, and Mira was complete fodder in comparison to current power levels. Especially when its a mere punch of hers. Dragon Slaying Magic allows the users to take on dragon-like properties, so they negate magic resistance and level the playing field which is why Zilconis was damaged by Wendys attack. If Laxus wasn't already very battle worn when he stepped-up to face Zilconis I think he could have done some damage. If Current Erza had dragon slaying magic I think someone of her level would be sufficient to take out a dragon of Zilconises caliber.

For Sand World specifically a dragon can still fly in it, and by extension out of it. Even so, Ajeel probably doesn't have an offensive move that can hurt a dragon though. Others like Wahl would probably fair better, and we'll see August and Irene eventually, I imagine they'll have considerable firepower.

I can agree DS magic levels the playing field. Even without knowing the exact mechanism, we know relatively speaking that DS magic > other magic against dragons. Whether it negates resistance, or is super effective, in the end it's the same thing. I agree if current Erza has DS magic she'll do well against a dragon, a slayer tech equivalent to Nakagami would be pretty effective.

I agree that physicality is a dragons greatest asset but I wouldn't say no human can replicate the roar that Igneel used. It seemed rather casual. More importantly though Igneel is dragon king level, there aren't any other dragons outside of Acnologia and perhaps the other dragon kings that existed 400 years ago who are even remotely close to Igneels level. I wouldn't use Igneel as a point of comparison. Its literally the same thing as comparing Acnologia to Motherglare.

A lot of things seem casual when we're talking really strong beings. I felt Igneel put a lot of power in it, like it was a serious roar. It's just he can't exhaust himself easily because he's really strong. I was using Igneel's power level and roar, to compare to IgNatsu and Zeref, the latter being the strongest character other than Acnologia right now. If the flames of Igneel are enough to rock Zeref, it speaks to the impressiveness of a dragons physical being imo, given Igneel's roar wasn't much of a thing to Acnologia. I'm not sure if my comparison is seamless, it's just the basis I find easiest to work with.

--- Double Post Merged, May 23, 2016, Original Post Date: May 23, 2016 ---

Well, it wasn't explicitly stated. However, I based this assumption off the fact that a dragon's magic is intrinsically linked to their biology. Human magic relies on learning spells and the such, but a dragon has their magic as part of their physical make-up. I think the difference between humans and dragons is that dragons developed magic as part of their species, and humans merely adopted it. Magic is also pretty rare among the humans. Only 10% of the population are capable of being mages. On the flip side, dragon's are inseparable from their magic, and their species operates on the level where pretty much the weakest adult dragon can pass for a high level human mage.

I can agree to all of that.

The point about the proportion of humans who can use magic v dragons is something I've never really thought about. That sheds some insight about why dragons, even the so called weaker ones, are seemingly superior magically than every wizard we've seen. It's probably why only a handful of wizards are even compared to dragons (by the fandom not canonically).

I have thought that the flux of ethernano (temporally) has played a role in either the dragons going to war, humans being weaker previously, and humans being stronger now than before. But since this isn't mentioned much I don't think it's really relevant (well Zeref did account for this in his plan).

 

[Axiomus]

It's interesting to speculate whether or not there were other dragon kings at Igneel's time. I'd like to think that Igneel wasn't always a dragon king, and that dragons select their kings through Dragon King Festivals. The dragons also had a war going on, so it's likely that there was a dragon king on the opposing side to Igneel to balance things out. I have this theory that the dragon designs we saw in the second movie stills might be that dragon. Then again, I have a lot of theories for what it might be. :P

I can agree to all of that.

The point about the proportion of humans who can use magic v dragons is something I've never really thought about. That sheds some insight about why dragons, even the so called weaker ones, are seemingly superior magically than every wizard we've seen. It's probably why only a handful of wizards are even compared to dragons (by the fandom not canonically).

I have thought that the flux of ethernano (temporally) has played a role in either the dragons going to war, humans being weaker previously, and humans being stronger now than before. But since this isn't mentioned much I don't think it's really relevant (well Zeref did account for this in his plan).

Think of what it would be like for a human to wrestle a bear. It's possible that a professional fighter can out-wrestle a light 200lbs brown bear. It would be a dangerous endeavor, but it's conceivable. Once you get to large 700lbs polar bears, any human pretty much just gets mauled. A human needs to go out of their way to learn how to fight, and only the strongest of the best can safely engage a bear. On the other hand, bears simply are natural apex predators.

Well my theory on the Ethernano being so low 400 years ago was because there was a bunch of powerful magical beings running around. If the earth can only produce a certain amount of Ethernano and magical beings fill their container with magic, then it stands to reason that having a bunch of vastly powerful magical beings all filling their containers would deplete the Ethernano. 400 years ago we had dragons, a bunch of high level dragon slayers, Gods, and other crazy stuff running around. Now, only 10% of the human population can use magic, most of them don't even surpass Sabertooth levels of power. You might be on to something about lower Ethernano levels being a limit on human potential though. It might be that humans simply got out-competed, and didn't have a chance to grow. Now that there is less competition, some humans can take their magic to new heights.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I disagree. I am inclined to think that even the strongest mages right now can't defeat a GMG dragon. By that, I'm talking about Natsu and Laxus. Damage them? Maybe. I am also reluctant to say that Eileen can beat a dragon. We'll see next chapter but I'm positive she has a death wish if she thinks she can deal with Acnologia. That is, of course, if she doesn't have a trick up her sleeve. I don't know what her magic is yet, so I'll wait for more information. If she possesses something like Future Rogue's Dragon Supremacy Magic but just on a higher level, then I can see her reasoning since she is already strong to begin with. But since she is called "High Enchanter", I'm still unsure of her magic/capabilities. Same with August. He is hyped to know all types of magics although I have doubts that it means Dragon Slayer Magic but it is a possibility.

Here are my thoughts. Igneel could easily kill Natsu and Laxus right now if he wanted to. Maybe not a one-shot but it won't even reach to a point where Igneel gets overwhelmed. Now if we were to match up Igneel (Dragon King) to GMG Dragons (Regular Dragons), would it result in anything close to a one-shot? Highly doubt it. Especially against Atlas Flame. Zirconis is different which brings me to my next point.

This dragon is a fool. He was definitely toying around even when he made everyone's clothes disappear. I'm not saying that he wasn't trying. I'm just saying he didn't go all out or full power. That goes with pretty much all the other dragons. They didn't even attempt flying... The most they did was stand in place, slash a few times, and maybe a few roars. Besides, the dragons were under Future Rogue's Dragon Supremacy Magic. Leave it up to the dragons themselves without any restrictions, they could cause a lot more havoc and destruction. I'm not talking about Magnolia's level but even greater.

What the past dragon slayers did in their time is unknown. We know they ran out of Ethernano. Maybe they were all really strong because they used a lot of it. As far as I'm concerned, nobody right now has reached that level yet. Either way, I won't speculate events that was never really shown to happen in the manga. There are endless alternatives. The most we got were a few vague flashbacks.

 

[Char]

I agree, there are more aspects to dragons than physicality, I just think that their physicality is the best thing they have.

A hax like Brandish' would need to work on a dragon. Can it? I'm not sure. She probably can't shrink August. DiMaria could freeze time against a dragon, but then she'd have no means of defeating it, because offensively her power isn't going to get the job done. With a hax, because they break the rules so to speak, I tend not to get too caught up in their possibilities, and I find it easier to discuss the straight up offense vs physical toughness because we can see it. I get your point though that their not just all-physical, and dragons can use magic too. As for the dragon slayer query, well that depends on the definition and context. In this manga I'd say being a dragon slayer means you use dragon slayer magic.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are dragons immune to magic? Tbh I think DS magic is more effective against dragons compared to normal magic, just like other slayer magics have shown to be. Mira couldn't hurt Zilconis because she's just nowhere near the level of hurting him. But I'd say if Wahl used Etherion (and I don't know how strong it is), I think he could hurt Zilconis. The big difference in the slayer advantage with DS magic and GS/DeS magic is that dragons themselves are much tougher than Gods or Demons.

I do agree you need DS magic to beat dragons, and being a Spriggan level-DS wizard would probably get it done. God Serena, Laxus and Natsu would be able to defeat dragons like Zilconis imo.

--- Double Post Merged, May 23, 2016, Original Post Date: May 23, 2016 ---

I don't think it's stated anywhere, but I think this also applies to humans too. Well, generally speaking, the more powerful wizards have greater durability. So I think it would be like this for dragons too, just their body is much bigger/stronger/tougher.

I don't think Brandish can shrink August, because August has been implied to know all kinds of magic, including Brandish's own; then he could somehow nullify it. Same goes with Dimaria, I think August could nullify her magic.

But with dragons, the thing is different. They're just as strong as or stronger than August but they don't know Brandish's or Dimaria's magics. Can dragons nullify this magic? Not "technically", but maybe they can because their overwhelming and superior magic power allows them. That is what, I think, Mashima wants us to believe.

What I think is implied but left to opinion is the fact that non-dragon-slaying magic is useless against dragons. My opinion is that, no matter how strong the magic is, dragons are immune to any kind of magic other than DS's. On the one hand, let me differ with you, I consider Dimaria to have enough offensive power to harm a dragon. Besides, another interesting thing is that gods are implied to be superior beings to dragons in FT, which means that, by powerscaling, God Slayers (or Gods for that matter, Dimaria being one) are above Dragon Slayers / Dragons. However, I don't think it's a matter of superiority, I think it's a matter of immunity. In my opinion, the thing is that gods are immune to any magic other than God Slaying magic. That can't be proven, but I could see it very clearly when DF Wendy at its 100% couldn't even touch Dimaria, while prime Chelia (with no apparent powerup or power boost, just how powerful she'd have NATURALLY been in her prime) could handily deal with a God. Does that put Chelia above Erza, for example? I think not.

I think prime Chelia would be on prime Erza's league, but Erza couldn't damage a dragon or a god, while Chelia could damage a god but NOT a dragon. I think it's a matter of compatibility. You say that Mira couldn't hurt Zirconis because she's just nowhere near the level of hurting him. Yet Wendy was dozens of times weaker than Mira by then. It's just that Mira's magic was not compatible. And if Mira wasn't nowhere near the level of hurting a dragon, then, who is? Mira = Erza, and Erza is veeery low-tier spriggan level, but spriggan level after all. If neither Mira nor Jura or Kagura could even touch/scratch a dragon, then who can? I think it all comes down to the "DS" effect.

So, no, I think etherion wouldn't be effective against a dragon at all. However if you add the DS nature to etherion (?), then it would be DS magic + the most powerful magic in the world = the ultimate magic against dragons haha

 

[Axiomus]

I don't think Brandish can shrink August, because August has been implied to know all kinds of magic, including Brandish's own; then he could somehow nullify it. Same goes with Dimaria, I think August could nullify her magic.

But with dragons, the thing is different. They're just as strong as or stronger than August but they don't know Brandish's or Dimaria's magics. Can dragons nullify this magic? Not "technically", but maybe they can because their overwhelming and superior magic power allows them. That is what, I think, Mashima wants us to believe.

What I think is implied but left to opinion is the fact that non-dragon-slaying magic is useless against dragons. My opinion is that, no matter how strong the magic is, dragons are immune to any kind of magic other than DS's. On the one hand, let me differ with you, I consider Dimaria to have enough offensive power to harm a dragon. Besides, another interesting thing is that gods are implied to be superior beings to dragons in FT, which means that, by powerscaling, God Slayers (or Gods for that matter, Dimaria being one) are above Dragon Slayers / Dragons. However, I don't think it's a matter of superiority, I think it's a matter of immunity. In my opinion, the thing is that gods are immune to any magic other than God Slaying magic. That can't be proven, but I could see it very clearly when DF Wendy at its 100% couldn't even touch Dimaria, while prime Chelia (with no apparent powerup or power boost, just how powerful she'd have NATURALLY been in her prime) could handily deal with a God. Does that put Chelia above Erza, for example? I think not.

I think prime Chelia would be on prime Erza's league, but Erza couldn't damage a dragon or a god, while Chelia could damage a god but NOT a dragon. I think it's a matter of compatibility. You say that Mira couldn't hurt Zirconis because she's just nowhere near the level of hurting him. Yet Wendy was dozens of times weaker than Mira by then. It's just that Mira's magic was not compatible. And if Mira wasn't nowhere near the level of hurting a dragon, then, who is? Mira = Erza, and Erza is veeery low-tier spriggan level, but spriggan level after all. If neither Mira nor Jura or Kagura could even touch/scratch a dragon, then who can? I think it all comes down to the "DS" effect.

So, no, I think etherion wouldn't be effective against a dragon at all. However if you add the DS nature to etherion (?), then it would be DS magic + the most powerful magic in the world = the ultimate magic against dragons haha

Honestly, I don't have god being superior to dragons. Natsu could shatter the god of war, so I don't think gods are immune to magic. Wendy and Chelia can't be used as a good measurement against someone like Dimaria, because they are so vastly inferior to Dimaria in terms of power level. Even Jura-level Wizards are pretty much completely ineffective against a Spriggan. Third Origin allows Chelia to use magic power from her future, and that would be an increase in her magical power.

I don't think dragons are immune to all magic either. I don't see why stuff like Etherion (which contains all types of magic) or Face (which drains ethernano) wouldn't effect dragons. Dragons simply have developed a high tolerance against magic less effective than dragon slaying magic, because they fight each other with dragon slaying magic all the time. To a dragon, dragon slaying magic is "normal" and everything else is "sub-standard". However, once you get into artificial magical super-weapons that goes out the window.

 

[Char]

I see, I didn't think of the god of war. It sure trashes away my theory. However, the fact still stands that Base Wendy, well below Mira, damaged a dragon while Mira couldn't; but then DF Wendy maxed up (around S class mague level) couldn't even touch a God while someone ARGUABLY on Erza's (S class mague) league defeated it.

If it is not a matter of immunity or compatibility, then if Natsu can defeat both a dragon and a god, then any spriggan possibly can; but that would make them Dragon Slayers, would it not? hehe

 

[Axiomus]

I disagree. I am inclined to think that even the strongest mages right now can't defeat a GMG dragon. By that, I'm talking about Natsu and Laxus. Damage them? Maybe. I am also reluctant to say that Eileen can beat a dragon. We'll see next chapter but I positive she has a death wish if she thinks she can deal with Acnologia. That is, of course, if she doesn't has a trick up her sleeve. I don't know what her magic is yet, so I'll wait for more information. If she possesses something like Future Rogue's Dragon Supremacy Magic but just on a higher level, then I can see her reasoning since she is already strong to begin with. But since she is called "High Enchanter", I'm still unsure of her magic/capabilities. Same with August. He is hyped to know all types of magics although I have doubts that it means Dragon Slayer Magic but it is a possibility.

Here are my thoughts. Igneel could easily kill Natsu and Laxus right now if he wanted to. Maybe not a one-shot but it won't even reach to a point where Igneel gets overwhelmed. Now if we were to match up Igneel (Dragon King) to GMG Dragons (Regular Dragons), would it result in anything close to a one-shot? Highly doubt it. Especially against Atlas Flame. Zirconis is different which brings me to my next point.

This dragon is a fool. He was definitely toying around even when he made everyone's clothes disappear. I'm not saying that he wasn't trying. I'm just saying he didn't go all out or full power. That goes with pretty much all the other dragons. They didn't even attempt flying... The most they did was stand in place, slash a few times, and maybe a few roars. Besides, the dragons were under Future Rogue's Dragon Supremacy Magic. Leave it up to the dragons themselves without any restrictions, they could cause a lot more havoc and destruction. I'm not talking about Magnolia's level but even greater.

What the past dragon slayers did in their time is unknown. We know they ran out of Ethernano. Maybe they were all really strong because they used a lot of it. As far as I'm concerned, nobody right now has reached that level yet. Either way, I won't speculate events that was never really shown to happen in the manga. There are endless alternatives. The most we got were a few vague flashbacks.

Well, I tend to think if Atlas-powered Natsu can take out a dragon, then someone like Serena stands a fairly decent chance at least taking out one. After all, unless Acnologia managed to solo the entire dragon race there must have been some dragon slayers that managed to slay a dragon. If a Sernea-level dragon slayer couldn't pull it off, then it's hard to imagine any that can.

I see, I didn't think of the god of war. It sure trashes away my theory. However, the fact still stands that Base Wendy, well below Mira, damaged a dragon while Mira couldn't; but then DF Wendy maxed up (around S class mague level) couldn't even touch a God while someone ARGUABLY on Erza's (S class mague) league defeated it.

If it is not a matter of immunity or compatibility, then if Natsu can defeat both a dragon and a god, then any spriggan possibly can; but that would make them Dragon Slayers, would it not? hehe

I think it's a combination of raw power and resistance. I don't think dragons have full on immunity, but I do think they have a high tolerance. Add that to the fact that they also have a high level of magical power to work with, and that makes beating them a pretty hard task. You basically need to be close to a Spriggan level dragon slayer. You need to be Spriggan level to get anywhere while fighting the dragon, and you need to be a dragon slayer so that your attacks aren't shrugged off.

 

[Crimson Ice]

The current heavy hitters Dragon Slayers (Laxus, Natsu, Serena and possibly Cobra) should be able to take out the GMG Dragons. As for the Spirggan rankings I'd have them as:

1.) August
2.) Irene
3.) Invel (Simply because he's Zeref's right hand)
4.) Dimaria
5.) Wahl
6.) God Serena (Don't know who to put between him and Wahl at 6)
7.) Brandish
8.) Ajeel
9.) Jacob
10.) Neinhart
Dunno where to put Bradman and Rakeed yet.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Well, I tend to think if Atlas-powered Natsu can take out a dragon, then someone like Serena stands a fairly decent chance at least taking out one. After all, unless Acnologia managed to solo the entire dragon race there must have been some dragon slayers that managed to slay a dragon. If a Sernea-level dragon slayer couldn't pull it off, then it's hard to imagine any that can.

Well, I guess that depends on whether you think an Atlas-powered Natsu is stronger or weaker than God Serena. Either way, I'm not sure if I count that as Natsu defeating a dragon. I mean Motherglare didn't have a chance to get back up and was already disappearing. We also have to note that Motherglare never attacked Natsu directly due to Future Rogue's Magic. If the dragon went all out and focused on Natsu instead of Atlas Flame, the outcome would be different.

Anyways, we saw in the fight between Atlas Flame and Motherglare that neither of them could damage each other, despite being dragons. Future Rogue solely relied on his Dragon Manipulation Magic, which only allowed him control a limited number of weak dragons. Plus, we know just how much power the soul of Atlas Flame had in Sun Village Arc. And that was only a small part of him.

I mean the hype we got in order to defeat Acnologia is a whole nation + infinite source of magic (although that could just be hype). Even so, Zeref and the Spriggan 12 (including August and Eileen) cannot defeat Acnologia who is on the same footing or arguably weaker than Igneel.

If we were to compare it to a regular dragon, I don't think they would be that easy to defeat either. Assuming we don't need Fairy Heart or Zeref to take down a GMG dragon, the Spriggan 12 as a whole are already powerful. Cut them in half and Natsu + Laxus are still nowhere near their level. Unless you believe the GMG Dragons are fodders to the Dragon Kings then I don't see them losing.

I honestly believe that this won't be the last arc, and defeating Acnologia will come eventually. There is still time for improvement. However, that doesn't mean Natsu and Laxus can't injure a dragon in their current state. They will definitely perform much better than in the GMG Arc but they just don't have quite enough power to defeat a dragon.

 

[Brandish μ]

Think of what it would be like for a human to wrestle a bear. It's possible that a professional fighter can out-wrestle a light 200lbs brown bear. It would be a dangerous endeavor, but it's conceivable. Once you get to large 700lbs polar bears, any human pretty much just gets mauled. A human needs to go out of their way to learn how to fight, and only the strongest of the best can safely engage a bear. On the other hand, bears simply are natural apex predators.

That's a good analogy. The overlap of power between humans and dragons would be very small.

Well my theory on the Ethernano being so low 400 years ago was because there was a bunch of powerful magical beings running around. If the earth can only produce a certain amount of Ethernano and magical beings fill their container with magic, then it stands to reason that having a bunch of vastly powerful magical beings all filling their containers would deplete the Ethernano. 400 years ago we had dragons, a bunch of high level dragon slayers, Gods, and other crazy stuff running around. Now, only 10% of the human population can use magic, most of them don't even surpass Sabertooth levels of power. You might be on to something about lower Ethernano levels being a limit on human potential though. It might be that humans simply got out-competed, and didn't have a chance to grow. Now that there is less competition, some humans can take their magic to new heights.

That theory could explain the situation. In any case Zeref sent slayers to the future so there'd be more ethernano. That could be Earthland produces more at that time, or it could mean that there's less powerful beings in that time using up the ethernano. The invention of Fairy Heart might put a hole in a limiting theory, well it's not an infinite power but a never-ending one.

I don't think Brandish can shrink August, because August has been implied to know all kinds of magic, including Brandish's own; then he could somehow nullify it. Same goes with Dimaria, I think August could nullify her magic.

But with dragons, the thing is different. They're just as strong as or stronger than August but they don't know Brandish's or Dimaria's magics. Can dragons nullify this magic? Not "technically", but maybe they can because their overwhelming and superior magic power allows them. That is what, I think, Mashima wants us to believe.

That's a fair point.

I do believe dragons have superior MP as a species over humans.

What I think is implied but left to opinion is the fact that non-dragon-slaying magic is useless against dragons. My opinion is that, no matter how strong the magic is, dragons are immune to any kind of magic other than DS's. On the one hand, let me differ with you, I consider Dimaria to have enough offensive power to harm a dragon. Besides, another interesting thing is that gods are implied to be superior beings to dragons in FT, which means that, by powerscaling, God Slayers (or Gods for that matter, Dimaria being one) are above Dragon Slayers / Dragons. However, I don't think it's a matter of superiority, I think it's a matter of immunity. In my opinion, the thing is that gods are immune to any magic other than God Slaying magic. That can't be proven, but I could see it very clearly when DF Wendy at its 100% couldn't even touch Dimaria, while prime Chelia (with no apparent powerup or power boost, just how powerful she'd have NATURALLY been in her prime) could handily deal with a God. Does that put Chelia above Erza, for example? I think not.

I do disagree on the gods > dragons thing. If anything the world has been completely ruled by dragons, or Acnologia. Gods IIRC are never mentioned to do something like this.

I find it easier to associate slayer magic with what we've seen work. For example, DeS magic allowed Gray to defeat Mard Geer, yet DF Natsu could only hurt him a bit. I felt the same thing happened with Sherria v DiMaria. DF Wendy however is just not strong enough to affect DiMaria. Someone like current Natsu would defeat DiMaria without Age Seal.

You could be right, that regardless of how much power you put into no-DS magic you can't hurt a dragon. At the GMG we had Jura(?) I think as the strongest person to attack one. So at least we know that level of power is useless. However I do believe DS magic works in much the same was as GS/DeS magic, but the big difference is dragon bodies >> demons/gods for toughness, and as such it might look like they're immune. We're kinda saying the same thing, though there would be implications for a non-DS wizard depending who is right.

I think prime Chelia would be on prime Erza's league, but Erza couldn't damage a dragon or a god, while Chelia could damage a god but NOT a dragon. I think it's a matter of compatibility. You say that Mira couldn't hurt Zirconis because she's just nowhere near the level of hurting him. Yet Wendy was dozens of times weaker than Mira by then. It's just that Mira's magic was not compatible. And if Mira wasn't nowhere near the level of hurting a dragon, then, who is? Mira = Erza, and Erza is veeery low-tier spriggan level, but spriggan level after all. If neither Mira nor Jura or Kagura could even touch/scratch a dragon, then who can? I think it all comes down to the "DS" effect.

So, no, I think etherion wouldn't be effective against a dragon at all. However if you add the DS nature to etherion (?), then it would be DS magic + the most powerful magic in the world = the ultimate magic against dragons haha

Idk if using GMG Mira is a standard for powerful wizards right now. That Mira would likely be defeated by GMG Jura around medium difficulty. Current Jura, with the help of 3 peers, gets defeated by one Spriggan. In the context of power this series, compared to the top 10 human wizards that aren't DS, GMG Mirajane would be an easy beat. If we go back to pre-skip, Mirajane would also be thrashed by wizards like Gildarts or Hades.

 

[Char]

I do disagree on the gods > dragons thing. If anything the world has been completely ruled by dragons, or Acnologia. Gods IIRC are never mentioned to do something like this.

You might be right, or not. God Slayers have been shown to be more skilled than Dragon Slayers, GENERALLY. I'm talking about Zancrow and Chelia here, but not about Ogra. Apparently, Zancrow was more powerful than Natsu. Besides, Natsu could not eat his flames unless he was "empty" of his. Which leads me to think that God Slayer flames are superior to Dragon Slayer flames, since Zancrow could actually eat Natsu's flames. Similarly, Chelia was superior to Wendy. Was it due to age? Maybe. Chelia is a tad older than Wendy, and that amounts to more experience. However, Wendy has been through more thorough battles than Chelia (O6, Tenroujima, etc.). That should add up to experience and equalize her. Besides, Chelia was naturally a clumsy person. Still, Chelia was clearly superior to Wendy. Maybe she was comparable to DF Wendy. Why is that so?

I tend to think that the nature of God Slaying magic is superior than that of Dragon Slaying magic. And if that is so, it can only be because Gods are more powerful entities than Dragons. Think of Ankersham, the one of Zeref's curse. He's supposed to be a God and he's probably the most powerful entity in the FT verse, although I doubt he'll ever appear.

As for Laxus vs Ogra, it's a different thing. Not only is Laxus a "different kind of dragon slayer" (second generation I think), but also he's an exception.

I find it easier to associate slayer magic with what we've seen work. For example, DeS magic allowed Gray to defeat Mard Geer, yet DF Natsu could only hurt him a bit.

That's a good point in favour of the compatibility thing. Demon Slayers work better against demons, even if DF Natsu was superior to DeS Gray.

I felt the same thing happened with Sherria v DiMaria. DF Wendy however is just not strong enough to affect DiMaria. Someone like current Natsu would defeat DiMaria without Age Seal.

Is DF Wendy just not strong enough to affect DiMaria? DF Wendy is around S-class mague, and S-class mague should be able to at least give a decent fight to a Spriggan. Wendy was being fodderized, she couldn't even scratch Dimaria, and let's remember it was not regular DF but complete DF that Wendy had. Wendy should have been able to at least "harm" Dimaria but she clearly was utterly powerless. I think this is an indicator that DF magic is not effective against gods, as much as grown-up Chelia wouldn't have been a match against a dragon but Wendy definetely was.

Could current Natsu beat DiMaria? Well, maybe. Let's remember that current Natsu is probably the most powerful mague from Ishgar. Besides, he already beat a god. Maybe he acquired some God Slayer abilities after eating Zancrow's fire, that we do not know. I don't think that's the case, though; and I think Natsu wouldn't have been able to harm Dimaria. Not because he lacks the offensive or deffensive power, or because he's not fast enough; because he's not "compatible". (Arguably, since he already beat a god)

You could be right, that regardless of how much power you put into no-DS magic you can't hurt a dragon. At the GMG we had Jura(?) I think as the strongest person to attack one. So at least we know that level of power is useless. However I do believe DS magic works in much the same was as GS/DeS magic, but the big difference is dragon bodies >> demons/gods for toughness, and as such it might look like they're immune. We're kinda saying the same thing, though there would be implications for a non-DS wizard depending who is right.

But again, we're implying Dragons' phisicality here. Although I DO think it's a combination between phisicality and compatibility.
After all, Natsu defeated a god, and many FT magues defeated demons. It could very well be possible that "anyone" can "slay" a dragon, a god or a demon if powerful enough, without using magic of that specialty.
Yet I don't want to think too strictly of phisicality, since Kagura was capable of slicing through an entire town, while she couldn't even touch a dragon. What are dragons, multi-city block tanks? Kagura can cut through steel, but she cannot cut through dragon skin.

Idk if using GMG Mira is a standard for powerful wizards right now. That Mira would likely be defeated by GMG Jura around medium difficulty. Current Jura, with the help of 3 peers, gets defeated by one Spriggan. In the context of power this series, compared to the top 10 human wizards that aren't DS, GMG Mirajane would be an easy beat. If we go back to pre-skip, Mirajane would also be thrashed by wizards like Gildarts or Hades.

I'm sorry I can't provide a source, but I somewhere read Mashima stated that if Mira and Erza engaged in a fight, Mira would win. Mira relies on skills, while Erza relies more on will. Mira is on par with Erza, which means she's apt for being considered a standard for a powerful wizzard. Mira is clearly not Laxus level, but she's Erza level. She could give some fight to a Spriggan or even beat one, if it's a weak one.

It is clear that Mira is not on a top5 list of pure human wizards, but she's probably Wizard Saint level, and if we do not consider monsters like Glidartz or Hades, she's to be feared. Unless Mashima wants to make her useless.