So why is it now that Gajeel finally went dragonforce, many still put df Gajeel below base Natsu?
I don't think anyone puts DF Gajeel below base Natsu, I'd say he's BDKM Natsu level at least.
In the communal ranking, people voted for BDKM Natsu being above DF Gajeel. That may be due to the overhyped feat of evaporating a lake (mountain level??). But you'll see the difference is marginal so we could safely assume half of the people would consider DF Gajeel above and half, below. IMHO, both have fought very different characters. For example, what is Bradman's durability (when tangible)? Hard to measure. What's stronger, DF Gajeel's consequent attacks or BDKM Natsu's punch? Who'd beat who if they fought? I lean on DF Gajeel, but let's not underestimate BDKM Natsu's capabilities of literally melting Gajeel (iron).
17. Natsu (47,37)
18. DF Gajeel (47,1)
But my point is that August and Eileen don't have the capability to defeat one just yet. Not because they are not slayers but because they don't have enough overall damage [Magic Power + Slayer Effectiveness].
Well I guess you've got a point. The thing is, we can't know. Makarov only hyped the Spriggans above the clouds but he never said "btw one spriggan individual is way stronger than one of the draogns we had to face" or anything like that.
Relying on feats, Irene actually dared to face the strongest dragon (and being for that matter) and did reasonably well, so I don't see why she couldn't beat a much, much, much weaker dragon (Zirconis for example, who I think Acnologia would laugh at). For all we know Irene threw a fire ball at Acnologia who could barely block it with his hand and with considerable setback, and she was arguably not even trying.
Don't get me wrong, August and Eileen have enough magic power to injure a dragon. But defeating one will probably take more like slayer advantage. Based on the feats we've seen from August/Eileen so far, I don't see them taking down a dragon.
I guess that if Natsu is 9 the average spriggan is 12, Irene and August are 20, but you need 35 to defeat a Dragon, and the dragon slayer factor happens to be a 5x, then Natsu can do so but Irene and August can't. So I guess this is your logic and it's indeed very respectable. I still think Irene and August are well capable of achieving a win against a regular dragon though.
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Base Chelia with God Slaying Magic was barely able to scratch Dimaria. Only when Chelia had Third Origin (which massively increased her power) did she have a chance against her.
But how massive was that powerup? IMO she was probably not stronger than Kagura, but with her advantage she could pull off a win. And Kagura (or TO Chelia for that matter) was still leagues below Dimaria but the GS factor equated into a win. However Irene or August have been hyped to be above Dimaria so I assume they could defeat her. Which implies that if a mage is strong enough, he can pretty much defeat anything he wants, but he's not going to have the +250% (or whatever) bonus for effectiveness
Let me ask you this question though. From the opposite perspective, do you think TO Chelia could have beaten Dimaria without slayer advantage? If your answer is no, then that is my point with August and Eileen.
My answer would be she might've slightly injured her, but Dimaria would've beaten her mid diff at most. But I still believe August and Eileen to be so many tiers above TO Chelia, that it makes sense for me to think that they could be above a Dragon. Also, what is more powerful, a dragon or a god? The only reasonably strong god we've got to know is Dimaria and we can't know for a fact whether she's > or < a regular dragon.
I agree that the Spriggans are far better than GMG Jura. But the question is, how much did Jura improve between the GMG Arc to Alvarez Arc (1 year difference)? I believe there was a consensus that Jura didn't improve much since Tartaros and that he is arguably on Erza's level (almost on par with Ajeel) in the current arc. That would put him on the level of a Low-Medium Tier Spriggan. So the difference between Jura and a Spriggan isn't too far.
Jura pretty much stayed the same. I've seen opinions ranging from the claim he even went down (he went past his prime + he didn't train) to opinions saying he should be current Erza level (way too hyped, since Erza put a decent fight against a Spriggan, whereas a team of four arguably as strong mages were sh*ted upon). In the middle we get what's probably true: he improved
marginally or he may have gotten as strong as the weakest GoI (which makes sense since durability-wise, the four of them were portrayed as equals...)
Jura is unfortunately far from borderline spriggan level:
Jura (high WS) > Warrod (low GoI) > Wolfheim (mid GoI) > Hyberion/current Erza (high GoI) > borderline Spriggan level (maybe Mirajane Alegria?) > Low spriggan level (Neinhart). Moreorless.
If you take a peek at the communal ranking, you'll see that he's fairly below any Spriggan. Therefore the gap between himself and a Spriggan should be so huge, than I can see Jura not even hurting a Dragon and a Spriggan pulling off a hard win.
I tend to differ here. The exchange between Eileen and Acnologia is very similar to Gildarts' experience. The only difference is that Acnologia straight up attacked Gildarts while he wasn't even willing to engage in a fight with Eileen. All this tells me is that Eileen is arrogant and that she is very much weaker than him from "running away". Honestly, I wouldn't even use Gildarts' battle with Acnologia as proof of his durability.
Not even close, IMO. While Acnologia speedblitzed Glidartz and ripped off an arm, a leg and most of his organs, Irene put a reasonably decent fight in which there was a interchange of attacks and Irene was actually capable of dodging one of his. Glidartz didn't achieve such a feat so that puts Irene faaaaaaaaar above THAT Glidartz. As for a possible Glidartz comeback, we cannot know how strong he'll come back. Weaker than Tenrou? As in Tenrou? Stronger than Tenrou? Vastly Stronger than Tenrou (Spriggan level)? Ridiculously stronger than Tenrou (August level)? We cannot know!
I don't deny their growth during the timeskip. But can they really defeat a dragon?
Their growth is simply and plainly ridiculous. It's usually the case that previous villains are no longer too big a threat after a couple of arcs have gone by. Erigor was a worm by the Tower of Heaven arc; that Jellal was a joke by the time we saw Hades, Mard Geer was simply too OP and Hades wasn't taken into account any longer since one of MG's lackeys could turn into the very Hades! (Although I consider Hades w heart on the same tier as Mard Geer). It was not ridiculous though: their growth was borderline believable but if you were understanding you could believe it.
Not after this timeskip, the main cast seems to have improved more than in the whole FT series. The gap that separates current Natsu to Tartaros Natsu is, IMO, bigger than the gap between Tartaros Natsu and beginning of series Natsu which is plainly ridiculous.
Having said that, to asnwer your question: yes, IMO, they can defeat a dragon.
If you look at Natsu, he had to go FDKM to beat (not kill) Jacob. That is already 1 power-up that Natsu had to use just to defeat a Low-Tier Spriggan. Although everyone may have improved, it isn't like they are godly right now. That is what I'm trying to get at. And just to make it clear, I don't believe the GMG dragons are fodders. Here is how I see it.
Yeah but there you are assuming that Jacob cannot defeat a Dragon. We don't know the limits of his haxy magic but maybe in his own dimension anything that enters is dead meat... He could very well be above GMG dragons for all we know. The thing is, we don't really know how regular dragons compare to Spriggan-level characters but I'd say that after this ridiculous 1 year growth, GMG dragons wouldn't be much of a problem for the current main cast.
Also GMG dragons were just regular dragons. Not fodder dragons, I don't think there's such thing as fodder dragons. Future Natsu spamming dragons was little believable to me unless that Natsu was actually as powerful as Alvarez Natsu.
So here is my point. How much weaker is Atlas Flame compared to Acnologia? A lot weaker, right? But not to the extent where you have to exclude Zeref, 11 Spriggans, Alvarez Empire, and Fairy Heart... If this is the case, Atlas Flame would be fodderized by Acnologia in his human form without the latter even having to move, use magic, etc. And that would be ridiculous.
Hmmm well I do get your logic and it sounds fine to me. It's just that you say it'd be ridiculous... Well to me it's already ridiculous the MC growth in this arc so if you ask me could human form Acnologia oneshot Atlas Flame?... I'll probably answer: yes. Because I consider God Serena superior to Atlas FLame anyway.
