Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Axiomus]

You forget that he didn’t care what he was when transformed, that means he made a choice. The partial demon transformation was in complete, that’s why. Being a full demon would have destroyed the seed anyway. Plus END can counter DH by his flames with the power of emotions. Heat till time is distorted and then kill Zeref. Invel states that END is a threat to Zeref, read again, and Zeref express confidence by congraduating that they almost resurrected END. Again, Zeref contradicts, you are stretching there

Not caring =/= strengthening your will and making a decision. Not caring is pretty much the exact opposite of that, actually.

END's flames are not powerful enough to burn time itself and overpower Fairy Heart. It didn't burn Dimaria's time magic, and it couldn't overpower Erza's bare hands. You need to imagine END has powers it never showed in order to justify him beating Zeref.

Invel said that END was a hindrance to Zeref, not a threat. Invel later went on to expressed confidently that he could deal with END. Zeref complimenting Mard Geer on almost resurrecting END is not the same as Zeref expressing confidence in END's ability to kill him. One does not imply the other. He's just saying "nice try" to Mard Geer. There is still no contradiction in anything Zeref ever said regarding wanting Natsu being the one to face him. He still believed that Natsu would chose to destroy END and wished that Natsu was the one to face him. The only contradiction Zeref had regarding Natsu is whether he wants still Natsu to kill him or to abandon suicide and just destroy the whole world. Zeref has stated multiple times that he believed Natsu would be strong enough to kill him. More important than his words, however, is Zeref's actual plan. Zeref planned for Natsu to be trained by Igneel to become strong enough to kill him. He didn't just try to unlock Natsu's demon powers. Zeref never once stated that he believes END's demonic power can kill him. Not once in all 526 chapters. The only time Zeref actually believed someone had the power to kill him was when Natsu came at him with Igneel's power.

 

[WoWfan]

Actually it is the will itself since all demons possess the will to kill Zeref so yes his will was strengthened and made a choice. Give it enough time, like how Natsu needed time to get emotional enough to pull it off. Again, not full power END. In this case hindrance is a threat because he would be a problem considering Zeref with all his power. Invel did not have confidence, he simply tried to use the best option to deal with END, via Gray. No, he say you did well, and how do you know Zeref isn’t contradicting his believes and motives? If so then Zeref did want END to be awakened in Tartarus by his words coming after what he said to Natsu. Zeref was confident enough that with Igneel’s training Natsu cannot kill Zeref (which proves true after his fight with FH Zeref), so END is the best bet to do so.

 

[Axiomus]

Actually it is the will itself since all demons possess the will to kill Zeref so yes his will was strengthened and made a choice. Give it enough time, like how Natsu needed time to get emotional enough to pull it off. Again, not full power END. In this case hindrance is a threat because he would be a problem considering Zeref with all his power. Invel did not have confidence, he simply tried to use the best option to deal with END, via Gray. No, he say you did well, and how do you know Zeref isn’t contradicting his believes and motives? If so then Zeref did want END to be awakened in Tartarus by his words coming after what he said to Natsu. Zeref was confident enough that with Igneel’s training Natsu cannot kill Zeref (which proves true after his fight with FH Zeref), so END is the best bet to do so.

Wanting to kill Zeref doesn't prove Natsu made the choice to become a demon either. Natsu blamed Zeref for the war, and hence for what happened to Lucy. It doesn't prove he made the conscious decision to become a demon.

A hindrance is a far cry from a threat. Especially since Invel thought he could deal with END himself. And yes, Invel absolutely did express confidence. Even when he thought Gray had died, Invel still expressed confidence that he could take out END himself. I don't know anything about Zeref that he's never said, and he's never said anything other than the fact he believes Natsu could destroy END and hopes that it would be Natsu to face him. There's still no contradiction in Zeref's words in wanting Natsu to be the one to face him. Saying that Mard Geer did well doesn't prove that he wanted Mard Geer to succeed in reviving END. He was just consoling Mard Geer for his efforts. If Zeref truly wanted to awaken END, he would just do so himself. Either by helping with the face plan (which wouldn't have mattered, because Zeref cannot stop the dragons) or just by undoing whatever seal was on the book (assuming it's not just Mard Geer's fantasy). Literally no effort was put into this.

END's power was never Zeref's best bet. Zeref never once expressed confidence in END's ability to kill him. It was never part of his original plan to kill him. Zeref's original plan was for Igneel to train Natsu to be strong enough to kill him, not for END's demon power to kill him. He was confident that Natsu could destroy END, and hoped that Natsu would be the one to kill him. He thought that Igneel's power could kill him, and when it ran out...He thought that Natsu no longer had the means of killing him. Somewhere along the lines, Zeref must have realized Igneel's training didn't make Natsu strong enough to kill him. This was probably when he found out Igneel stunted the growth of the dragon seed, preventing Natsu from reaching Igneel's level of power. Zeref even made a remark about how if only Natsu could turn into a dragon. Nowhere in any of this, did Zeref ever bank on END's power being the thing to kill him. END's demonic power wasn't given that much of a thought by Zeref at all. Zeref basically gave up after realizing Natsu no longer had the ability to use power on Igneel's level.

 

[Jko]

E.N.D. wasn't at full power and it's simple as that. Why? Bcs his book wasn't even open in the first place.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2018 ---

E.N.D. was Zeref's only bet as stated numerous times by Zeref himself.

 

[Axiomus]

E.N.D. wasn't at full power and it's simple as that. Why? Bcs his book wasn't even open in the first place.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2018 ---

E.N.D. was Zeref's only bet as stated numerous times by Zeref himself.

The book not being opened literally has nothing to do with it. And the book was opened by Lucy. Didn't do anything.

Zeref never once said END's demonic powers was his best bet. Not once, and I dare you to prove otherwise. Zeref has said multiple times that he hoped and believed Natsu would be the one to kill him. I can provide at least 2 instances where he says this my very next post.

 

[WoWfan]

What jko said,
also, by his will to kill Zeref which is the will of all E. demons, he then chose in that regard to be a demon, whether or not it is a choice or not, it would not matter, since he would be a demon and thus would not die. hindrance is a threat if you claim that END had no chance to beat Zeref then you contradict yourself. which Zeref hoped for from Mard Geer. it was his best bet, that is why he was making the demons in the first place. that is why END's power surpasses god powers as well. and that is why even Dragons cannot kill Zeref. that is why he said Natsu as END, not Natsu the Dragon Slayer.

@Jko just ignore him, he is just picking straws

 

[Jko]

The book not being opened literally has nothing to do with it. And the book was opened by Lucy. Didn't do anything.

Zeref never once said END's demonic powers was his best bet. Not once, and I dare you to prove otherwise.

The book being "closed" was bcs it was sealed as stated by Mard Geer and Igneel. If the book is not open (unsealed) then that means he can't have access to E.N.D.'s true power. The book wasn't really unsealed. It revived him from death when it was tampered by Lucy, but it wasn't unsealed.

Go look back to the origin of E.N.D. where it was stated by Zeref that he was the only thing that had the potential to kill him. Zeref made him for the exact reason of killing him and said the other Etherious were failures and E.N.D. was the only success.

 

[Axiomus]

@Jko @WoWfan

Here Zeref says that the one to reach him will be either Natsu or END, and that he hopes it will be Natsu.

Here Zeref says he always believed that Natsu will be the one to kill him.

Your turn now. Find me a single panel where Zeref ever says something along the lines of "END's demonic power is my best chance at death" or even "END has the power to kill me". I will literally take any statement where Zeref implies that END's demonic has the power to kill him. I will even take any statement where Zeref says he hopes to fight END's demon form instead of Natsu. Spoiler alert: He's never said anything of the sort. Quite frankly, it's appalling how much stuff just gets made up about what was said about END. Stuff that you can easily disprove by re-reading the chapters.

@Jko, Mard Geer and Igneel never said anything about the book being close being the reason why END was sealed. Also, Lucy opened the book of END without even doing anything special. It didn't release END's power or anything like that. Opening the book just releases the magic text that is keeping Natsu alive. It stands to reason that damaging that magic could hurt Natsu. This is most likely the reason Igneel told Natsu not to open the book. What exactly do you mean by "unsealed"?

 

[WoWfan]

he never really stated which one of them who would reach Zeref, since they were technically one person, again he does not refer to Natsu or END. again, his existance as END with the power to surpass god powers, such as Immortality of Ankhseram. and damaging the book where the Demon seed grew had that effect on him as well which made it manifest. you cannot prove what you say by just saying you when END and Natsu are technically the same person. and Igneel did say do not open it, so no.

 

[Axiomus]

he never really stated which one of them who would reach Zeref, since they were technically one person, again he does not refer to Natsu or END. again, his existance as END with the power to surpass god powers, such as Immortality of Ankhseram. and damaging the book where the Demon seed grew had that effect on him as well which made it manifest. you cannot prove what you say by just saying you when END and Natsu are technically the same person.

He literally says "The one to reach me will be you or END. I hope I will see you again". He's obviously referring to wanting to see Natsu as a human when he refers to "you". Saying that END and Natsu are technically the same person is all well and good, but this doesn't change the fact that Zeref is banking on Natsu's magic power and not END's demonic power. Hence the plan to have Igneel train him.

END's having more power than Chronos literally has no bearing on whether or not it could take on Ankhseram's curse. Even assuming END has the hax to make Zeref mortal, he's still nowhere near strong enough to actually beat Zeref in a fight. Igneel's power would have had whatever hax necessary to kill Zeref, and Igneel's power still needed a certain level of strength to get the job done.

The seeds were growing because Natsu doubted his humanity. Hence why they grew after Zeref told Natsu he was END. Damaging the book was never stated to have anything to do with why the seed started growing.

 

[WoWfan]

again, Zeref contradicts, and also, he bold the second word you instead of first you from before which inclines no connection there. which leads to speculation on which one he was talking about. plus his disappointment in END not awakening points the later to meet. END power is not based on strength nor does that imply that time stop is limited to power levels, you have no proof there, so stop bringing up things that are debunked yet END can beat Zeref at his full power. The demon seed did not even exist until Zeref pierced the book, since it is located in the same spot where the injury was. As a Demon he would not die because the dragon seed cannot fuse to something that doesn’t grow anymore as it blossomed.

 

[Axiomus]

again, Zeref contradicts, and also, he bold the second word you instead of first you from before which inclines no connection there. which leads to speculation on which one he was talking about. plus his disappointment in END not awakening points the later to meet

Bolding of the word literally has no relevance whatsoever. If you read the raws, there's never any bolding in the Japanese. The bolding is just something the English translators gave us to put emphasis on some of the lines. In this case, the translators really want to put emphasis on Zeref saying the word "you". How could Zeref emphasizing the word "you" possibly be taken as Zeref trying to say he really wants to see Natsu turn into a full demon? That makes no sense. Zeref says either END or Natsu would reach him, and that he hopes that Natsu would be the one. He later goes on to say that he always believed Natsu would be the one to kill him, referring to Natsu as he faced him in the Alvarez arc. The two statements agree with each other, and neither statement implied anything about Zeref wanting END to be awakened. In fact, Zeref never said anything along the lines of wanting to awaken END. And no, Zeref was never disappointed at END not being awakened.

 

[WoWfan]

Yes it does as it diverts your suspicions one who he is referring to. And yet you lie when the raw says that it is Natsu that Zeref was referring to it. Otherwise it only furthers Zeref’s contradictions, he emphasizes the word you for Natsu to be a full demon so he can kill him, what other reason is there? More of his contradictions as there is no proof that igneel’s Power can beat Zeref since power via cannot kill immortals in general. yet Natsu cannot kill him, making Zeref's words contradictory, without END power. He was disappointed since he wanted to settle things once and for all, that is the only reason he showed up and congradulated Mard Geer on his efforts, and no Acnologia should not be a reason he is here.

 

[Axiomus]

Yes it does as it diverts your suspicions one who he is referring to. And yet you lie when the raw says that it is Natsu that Zeref was referring to it. Otherwise it only furthers Zeref’s contradictions, he emphasizes the word you for Natsu to be a full demon so he can kill him, what other reason is there? More of his contradictions as there is no proof that igneel’s Power can beat Zeref since power via cannot kill immortals in general. He was disappointed since he wanted to settle things once and for all, that is the only reason he showed up and congradulated Mard Geer on his efforts, and no Acnologia should not be a reason he is here.

I've never lied. The raws never show a bolding in the kanji or kana. You literally have to butcher the context of the entire scene in order to interpret Zeref saying "you" as referring to anything other than Natsu. First of all, he's talking to Natsu. The entire conversation was about Natsu having the choice to destroy END or not. This was even referenced later in Natsu's heart where Natsu had to decide what to do with the seeds. Why would Zeref say "you" a bunch of times in the context of telling Natsu that he had the choice of becoming END or not, make the distinction between the two personalities, and then tell Natsu that he hopes to see "you again" when he's really referring to the END personality?

Spoiler: To live or let die, full conversation

[

Spoiler: Zeref's exact speech referenced in Natsu's heart

Quite frankly, I am speechless at how you manage to come to the exact opposite conclusion of everything the manga explicitly lays out. Zeref is telling Natsu that he has a choice to become END or to destroy it, that only one of two personalities them will face him, and that he hopes it is Natsu. Later on he reveals that he always believed that Natsu would be the one to kill him, and reveals his entire plan about having Natsu to be sent to be trained by Igneel. Everything Zeref says is pretty much the exact opposite of what you are implying.

Also, there is proof that Igneel's power would have killed Zeref. The story thus far section back when the manga was serialized weekly stated that Natsu and Zeref would indeed have died if Natsu landed that final attack. Not only is this proof that Igneel's power would have killed Zeref, but I'd like to remind you again remind you again that none of this changes the fact that Zeref has never expressed confidence that END's power could kill him. Igneel's power is canonically the only thing Zeref ever expressed confidence in his ability to die.

 

[WoWfan]

I don’t have to butcher anything when it is simply a word that can be interpreted from a certain point of view since Natsu and END are the same. The seed did not exist until Zeref pierce the book

Again, not proof since he did say Natsu fully. Again, Zeref contradicts as Natsu cannot kill Zeref without END power. Like how Igneel nor Acnologia can kill Zeref

That only shows that Igneel’s power is just hax, thus disregards any discussion of strength overcoming powers. Actually, that recap hold little power since there is no proof that it would have worked since it did not land. And confidence can only go so far without evidence, especially since Natsu never tested it out

 

[Axiomus]

I don’t have to butcher anything when it is simply a word that can be interpreted from a certain point of view since Natsu and END are the same. The seed did not exist until Zeref pierce the book

Again, not proof since he did say Natsu fully. Again, Zeref contradicts as Natsu cannot kill Zeref without END power. Like how Igneel nor Acnologia can kill Zeref

That only shows that Igneel’s power is just hax, thus disregards any discussion of strength overcoming powers. Actually, that recap hold little power since there is no proof that it would have worked since it did not land. And confidence can only go so far without evidence, especially since Natsu never tested it out

Given the context of everything he said during their conversation and what he said to Natsu during their fight in Alvarez, Zeref was certainly referring to Natsu when he said "you". He made a distinction between END and Natsu, and referred to Natsu as "you" when he said "The one to reach me will be you or END. I hope I will see you again". Later when he fought Natsu in the Alvarez Arc, he told Natsu as a human (not END) that "I've always believed that you would be the one to finish me off". Zeref's usage of the word "you" is not ambiguous here. Not even close. Zeref definitely was not referring to END when he said that line in the Alvarez Arc. That line was spoken after Natsu told him about Igneel's power and hit him with an FDK punch. It was after Zeref said "I am truly impressed by your power, Natsu". It really doesn't get any more clear-cut than this.

Spoiler: I am truly impressed by your power, Natsu. I've always believed that you might be the one to finish me off

[

There is no contradiction. The only time you get to say Zeref made a contradiction is when he contradicts his own words, like when he flips back on forth on whether he wants to die or wants to destroy the world. Nowhere in the manga did Zeref say that END had the power to kill him. This is a thing you've made up. Zeref has only ever expressed confidence in Igneel's power being able to kill him. And yes, the final blow was going to kill him because the "Story Thus Far" recap confirmed that both Natsu and Zeref were both indeed about to die.

Like I've said multiple times now, hax alone is not enough. Igneel's power had the hax to kill Zeref, but Zeref didn't just automatically die when Igneel's power touched him. It still took a massive amount of raw power for Natsu to burn away Zeref's own attacks and damage him. Zeref specifically stated that Natsu's ability to kill him was dependent on how much strength he had left. So even with hax, you still need a sufficient amount of raw power to kill Zeref. Even without his immortality, Zeref could still beat END. Given her performance against Irene, Erza could have probably beaten Natsu with END's powers. She's not immortal or a devil slayer.

 

[WoWfan]

Yet Natsu is END to him so that context would be very much differently, there is no difference in his mind they are one in the same. That is not true, his words in general are filled with contradiction, but that doesn’t change the fact that END is made to kill Zeref and Zeref did not die from dragon slayer magic. Yet hax is necessary as proven when he defeated FH Zeref, he cannot die from power. His strength is only his magic power left, that is all, nothing more nothing left. And it is proven that Igneel’s power is not even close to kill him, so Natsu cannot kill him without END power

 

[Axiomus]

Yet Natsu is END to him so that context would be very much differently, there is no difference in his mind they are one in the same. That is not true, his words in general are filled with contradiction, but that doesn’t change the fact that END is made to kill Zeref and Zeref did not die from dragon slayer magic. Yet hax is necessary as proven when he defeated FH Zeref, he cannot die from power. His strength is only his magic power left, that is all, nothing more nothing left. And it is proven that Igneel’s power is not even close to kill him, so Natsu cannot kill him without END power

Zeref just said "the one to reach me will be you or END", so obviously there's a distinction for him right there. He just said "I am truly impressed by your power, Natsu. I have always believed you would be the one to finish me off". This literally cannot be more clear.

Ignoring Zeref's words just because he has a curse of contradiction is just silly. Mavis has the same curse, yet we don't throw everything she says out the window. You need to prove Zeref actually contradicted himself with what things that he said. Zeref never said END has the power to kill him, and he never said he wished END would be revived. There is no contradiction. He's always consistently said that he believes Natsu would be the one to kill him, and that he hopes to see Natsu again. You can't just pretend it's a contradiction because you don't like what Zeref is saying, and then pretend he said stuff he never did.

Igneel's power was enough to kill him, as proven by the official narrative text. Natsu and Zeref both would have died if that final attack had landed, and it was Happy's tears that held Natsu back. This is canon. Natsu could only kill him with Igneel's power. That is why when it ran out, Zeref gave up on dying. END's demonic powers was never even considered.

 

[WoWfan]

Which is nonexistent with Natsu/END, what he contradicts is that he believes END cannot kill him, that is the Sure thing he is wrong about right there. The narrative text can be wrong too as Igneel’s power if only by power level alone cannot kill Zeref as he cannot die by any stronger being’s hands

 

[LaGOAT]

I don't see how Gray getting his attack erased would prove that he is weaker than Laxus. Gray's spells are made of ice and Ajeel uses Sand Magic. One property of sand is removing moisture from objects. So it makes sense that Ajeel can dry up Gray's ice with his sand, which is why Ajeel said "dessicate".

At most, Ajeel and Gray were just exchanging attacks, which is how a fight works.

And besides, Ajeel's devouring sand attack was stopped by a surprise attack from Laxus. Ajeel wasn't aware of Laxus' arrival, so he had no way to counter that move.

Also, Laxus had arial advantage. It is entirely possible that Ajeel could have maneuvered his sand to dodge Laxus' lightning bolt and trap Laxus in the sand, had Laxus been fighting on the ground. Ajeel's sand can't reach as high as the airship.

Spoiler: Ajeel was unaware of Laxus' surprise attack & Laxus had arial advantage

As for Wahl's Weakness Soldiers, they weren't causing any problems for Gray. The only reason why everybody in the group switched opponents was because it was more energy efficient (to save magic power). Gray was simply using intelligence in that battle to have a tactical advantage. It'd be a huge waste of energy for them to fight all those weakness soldiers at a disadvantage, especially since the robots have elements that are a perfect counter to their magic.


And I don't think Laxus was dominating Wahl at all. Wahl didn't suffer any significant damage or injury until Laxus used Red Lightning, which was a PoF move.

On the other hand, Gray was thrashing Invel in base form using hand-to-hand combat. And immediately after defeating Invel, he had to fight END, who is several tiers above Wahl and Invel.

But fair enough, you are entitled to your own opinions at the end of the day.

Laxus used a casual nuke to counter ajeel sand and damn near oneshot him. Gray couldnt do that Laxus without pof can one oneshot a low tier spriggan gray cannot. 2. Base natsu broke out ajeel quicksand I’m pretty sure laxus can too. red lighting imo wasn’t pof it was that wahl not able to tanked it was the asspull. He had a year to train can’t say that he didn’t train for that. Laxus was handicap from the get go having cancer or a year and this was able to go toe to toe with wall while non pof gray don’t do a thing to invel. Gray was toe to toe with end but was casually stop by Erza. Don’t forget that laxus fought hades (a spriggan tier) right after wall. And then proceed to fight acno too

Which is nonexistent with Natsu/END, what he contradicts is that he believes END cannot kill him, that is the Sure thing he is wrong about right there. The narrative text can be wrong too as Igneel’s power if only by power level alone cannot kill Zeref as he cannot die by any stronger being’s hands

No bro u like to powerscale a lot if gray=end when they both were not in “perfect condition” it means that 100% des gray>full power end since that end weakness is des. base on ur logic 100% gray>FP end>zeref>anco(since u said he has to kill zeref to prove he is stronger)