Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[grey matter]

Is base Mard Geer strong enough to bust the Plutogrim?

Celestial Spirit King did, and Mard Geer blocked an attack from him.

He should be strong enough to bust Plutogrim IMO

 

[LaGOAT]

The fact that Zeref did not die means that Natsu without END’s power is incapable of killing him, you are wrong, Zeref was about to get back up, that is not really a defeat as he can get back up to attack soon. That is simple truth.

the fac

The fact that Zeref did not die means that Natsu without END’s power is incapable of killing him, you are wrong, Zeref was about to get back up, that is not really a defeat as he can get back up to attack soon. That is simple truth.

the fact that u have no proof that end can beat let alone kill zeref is pure speculation. Lol natsu have beaten opponents without killing be4. Zeref couldnt move and revert back to base. In fact zeref said that he lost the battle. By ur logic ur saying since acno can’t kill zeref it means he isn’t stronger same with Mavis

 

[Cosmicstar]

He should be strong enough to bust Plutogrim IMO

What destructive feats do he have to suggest this though? His biggest destructive feat is building level at best.

 

[WoWfan]

the fact comes from statements of him and his subordinates, Zeref is the exception to that rule since he can basically come back in a short time to fight more, he has to die in order to be truly defeated, he questions it, while he then adds that Natsu is naive and will be back in a few minutes, Acno can't kill him so there is that.

 

[Axiomus]

Mard Geer's attacks don't have the AOE to bust Plutogrim, but pretty much any of his attacks will be able to damage it.

END is much stronger than FDK, but might be weaker than Dragon Force. Igneel's power hasn't been shown to be much stronger than base Natsu. The fact is that despite their hype, neither of those modes accomplished anything substantial. Base Natsu exhausted Zeref more than Base IgNatsu, END has only fought Gray and Dimaria.

Sure, and i think END could beat him.

I didn't say it did, I said it eliminated all symptoms of the fusion. Nothing suggests that he was still dying. Sure, and without Erza Gray would've pushed on too.

Yes, which only makes sense if Natsu is END.
No, he hopes Natsu is who he sees.
Not so, when confronted with Gray he specifically said he intended to draw out Natsu's greatest power with negative emotions, which as you said, is END.
When he revealed to Natsu that he is END.

Igneel's power isn't just stronger than base Natsu, it's significantly stronger than FDK. Like I said, Zeref noted the MP and heat of Igneel's power when Natsu took off the bandages mere moments after he used an FDK roar. Igneel's power was a direct boost to Natsu's MP, and he can use FDK spells with it. Base Natsu was losing against Zeref in their rematch, and he couldn't burn away his black magic without resorting to Dragon Force. Igneel's power allowed Natsu to dominate the early exchanges with Zeref, and burn through his black magic with a wave of his hand. Zeref noted the difference in their rematch.

On the other hand, none of END's attacks seem to be anything that base Natsu can't replicate. I don't think any of it's attacks even stack up against demolition fist, unless you think that Erza can block a demolition fist the same way he blocked END's and Gray's attacks. END hasn't shown anything that implies that he could even beat Gray. How exactly is he to beat Zeref?

If the transformation didn't crumble away one of the seeds, then the seeds were still there and fusing. If the seeds were still fusing, then Natsu is still dying. The fact that we saw no symptoms is largely a result of POF giving them the power to keep moving despite their injuries/cancer. Once you take away that POF boost, their conditions overtook them.

What only makes sense? Again, not only was END's power is completely absent from Zeref's plans, but he told Natsu that he wanted to face Natsu and not END. Obviously if Zeref wants to see Natsu, it means that he wants to fight Natsu. The next time they see each other would be when they fight, and Zeref didn't plan on dying anymore after that.

 

[WoWfan]

Again, you can’t trust what Zeref says as he said he wanted END to kill him later on

 

[Seven777]

Mard Geer's attacks don't have the AOE to bust Plutogrim, but pretty much any of his attacks will be able to damage it.



Igneel's power isn't just stronger than base Natsu, it's significantly stronger than FDK. Like I said, Zeref noted the MP and heat of Igneel's power when Natsu took off the bandages mere moments after he used an FDK roar. Igneel's power was a direct boost to Natsu's MP, and he can use FDK spells with it. Base Natsu was losing against Zeref in their rematch, and he couldn't burn away his black magic without resorting to Dragon Force. Igneel's power allowed Natsu to dominate the early exchanges with Zeref, and burn through his black magic with a wave of his hand. Zeref noted the difference in their rematch.

On the other hand, none of END's attacks seem to be anything that base Natsu can't replicate. I don't think any of it's attacks even stack up against demolition fist, unless you think that Erza can block a demolition fist the same way he blocked END's and Gray's attacks. END hasn't shown anything that implies that he could even beat Gray. How exactly is he to beat Zeref?

If the transformation didn't crumble away one of the seeds, then the seeds were still there and fusing. If the seeds were still fusing, then Natsu is still dying. The fact that we saw no symptoms is largely a result of POF giving them the power to keep moving despite their injuries/cancer. Once you take away that POF boost, their conditions overtook them.

What only makes sense? Again, not only was END's power is completely absent from Zeref's plans, but he told Natsu that he wanted to face Natsu and not END. Obviously if Zeref wants to see Natsu, it means that he wants to fight Natsu. The next time they see each other would be when they fight, and Zeref didn't plan on dying anymore after that.

I could say the same about END, their feats are more or less on the same level.
And yeah, no, he made no comparison to Natsu's FDK attack, he simply took note of the presence Natsu gave off when he took off the bandage. If you wanna say IgNatsu's presence>Base Natsu's presence, go right ahead.
Base Natsu was losing to Zeref after he had already pushed Zeref beyond what Base IgNatsu did. Base IgNatsu's immediate performance was more impressive, but in the end he accomplished less.
Sure, Zeref noted the difference, after experiencing the full range of IgNatsu's abilities, including FDK.

None of IgNatsu's attack seem above what Base Natsu can replicate either, outside the FDK finisher. Overall IgNatsu did better than Base Natsu, sure, but not much better. END did better against Dimaria than Base Natsu/Lucy did against Jacob too, and just like with IgNatsu it doesn't impress me. Both can do a little better than Base Natsu can, but it's not an extreme amount.
Why would beating Gray be a prerequisite for beating Zeref? I don't see it that way at all. Oh and yes, Erza blocks a Demo Fist, in fact she takes one to the face and receives less damage to it than END did to her arm.

Says who? For all you know the transformation halted the fusion, or was Demon Seed slowly gaining control. And like I said, PoF wasn't going away without Erza and Lucy.

Zeref's plan, it only makes sense if Natsu is END, i've said it a thousand times.
ENDs power wasn't absent from Zeref's plans, it was the crux of it.
He didn't say he wanted to face Natsu, he said he wanted to see Natsu. And no, see doesn't mean fight, Zeref doesn't always want Natsu to kill him or to fight him and even if he did, Zeref acts on emotion, he will happily throw out his plans just to see his little brother.
Besides, we already saw against Gray that Zeref considers END his greatest power and wants to draw it out of him. It was his last ditch effort at suicide.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 11, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 11, 2020 ---

Why is this thread a Mard Geer thread?

 

[Axiomus]

I could say the same about END, their feats are more or less on the same level.
And yeah, no, he made no comparison to Natsu's FDK attack, he simply took note of the presence Natsu gave off when he took off the bandage. If you wanna say IgNatsu's presence>Base Natsu's presence, go right ahead.
Base Natsu was losing to Zeref after he had already pushed Zeref beyond what Base IgNatsu did. Base IgNatsu's immediate performance was more impressive, but in the end he accomplished less.
Sure, Zeref noted the difference, after experiencing the full range of IgNatsu's abilities, including FDK.

None of IgNatsu's attack seem above what Base Natsu can replicate either, outside the FDK finisher. Overall IgNatsu did better than Base Natsu, sure, but not much better. END did better against Dimaria than Base Natsu/Lucy did against Jacob too, and just like with IgNatsu it doesn't impress me. Both can do a little better than Base Natsu can, but it's not an extreme amount.
Why would beating Gray be a prerequisite for beating Zeref? I don't see it that way at all. Oh and yes, Erza blocks a Demo Fist, in fact she takes one to the face and receives less damage to it than END did to her arm.

Says who? For all you know the transformation halted the fusion, or was Demon Seed slowly gaining control. And like I said, PoF wasn't going away without Erza and Lucy.

Zeref's plan, it only makes sense if Natsu is END, i've said it a thousand times.
ENDs power wasn't absent from Zeref's plans, it was the crux of it.
He didn't say he wanted to face Natsu, he said he wanted to see Natsu. And no, see doesn't mean fight, Zeref doesn't always want Natsu to kill him or to fight him, sometimes he just wants to see him. What Zeref wants from Natsu varies greatly, it's not always about his plans.

Spoiler

I haven't been that impressed by END's feats, but you're welcome to try to change my mind.

Zeref already saw what FDK roar did to his troops. He was still more impressed when Natsu took off the bandages. To me that suggests that pretty much all of Natsu's attacks with Igneel's power were better than his FDK roar. Igneel's power could burn away Zeref's magic with a wave of his hand, whereas base Natsu was stuck in Zeref's magic for a while and had to resort to DF to break free.

The only reason Jacob lasted as long as he did against Natsu was because Natsu held back. Had he been willing to use demolition fist right off the bat, it would have been over much sooner. END's attacks didn't kill Dimaria, and I am not convinced that his attacks would kill Jacob either. On the flip side, I am fairly convinced that the FDK finisher with Igneel's power would have killed either of them. Heck, I think the very first punch Natsu threw that sent Zeref through the cliff would have done the job.

Says the manga? We were told that the seeds were trying to fuse and that the way to stop it was for Natsu to choose to become something. No choice was made and both seeds still existed when Natsu was rampaging around with END's powers. Nothing really implies that the seeds stopped trying to fuse, or that the demon seed was winning. For all we know, half the transformation's powers belonged to the dragon seed.

Because Zeref is stronger than Gray? Well where do you put demolition fist then? I have it just under Laxus' raiko: red lightning. Frankly, I think Erza exhausts a good portion of her reserves trying to match that attack.

I know you've said that many times that Zeref's plan doesn't make sense if he's not involving END. It's still not true. Zeref's plan never involved END's power. His plan was for Igneel to Natsu to become strong enough to kill him. Before they actually fought, Zeref told Natsu that he would have the option of destroying END, and that he hopes he would do so. What ended up happening was that Igneel gave Natsu his power, and Zeref thought that was good enough. Then after Igneel's power ran out, Zeref stopped trying to die. END was never part of the plan. If END was part of the plan, then Zeref would have made moves to reawaken it before they fought the first time in Alvarez.

Like I said, Zeref is perfectly sane the vast majority of the time, the same way Mavis is perfectly sane the vast majority of the time. There are specific instances where the curse kicks in and he starts to contradict himself. Those are the times where we can't just take him at his word. When he talked to Natsu during the Alvarez Arc, he was perfectly coherent and didn't contradict his own words. He didn't even say anything afterwards to contradict his words. Nor did he act in a fashion that would contradict what he said either. He simply explained to Natsu that he would have the choice of destroying END, and that Natsu can either face him as END or himself, and that he hopes it would be Natsu.

 

[Seven777]

I haven't been that impressed by END's feats, but you're welcome to try to change my mind.

Zeref already saw what FDK roar did to his troops. He was still more impressed when Natsu took off the bandages. To me that suggests that pretty much all of Natsu's attacks with Igneel's power were better than his FDK roar. Igneel's power could burn away Zeref's magic with a wave of his hand, whereas base Natsu was stuck in Zeref's magic for a while and had to resort to DF to break free.

The only reason Jacob lasted as long as he did against Natsu was because Natsu held back. Had he been willing to use demolition fist right off the bat, it would have been over much sooner. END's attacks didn't kill Dimaria, and I am not convinced that his attacks would kill Jacob either. On the flip side, I am fairly convinced that the FDK finisher with Igneel's power would have killed either of them. Heck, I think the very first punch Natsu threw that sent Zeref through the cliff would have done the job.

Says the manga? We were told that the seeds were trying to fuse and that the way to stop it was for Natsu to choose to become something. No choice was made and both seeds still existed when Natsu was rampaging around with END's powers. Nothing really implies that the seeds stopped trying to fuse, or that the demon seed was winning.

Because Zeref is stronger than Gray? Well where do you put demolition fist then? I have it just under Laxus' raiko: red lightning. Frankly, I think Erza exhausts a good portion of her reserves trying to match that attack.

I know you've said that many times that Zeref's plan doesn't make sense if he's not involving END. It's still not true. Zeref's plan never involved END's power. His plan was for Igneel to Natsu to become strong enough to kill him. Before they actually fought, Zeref told Natsu that he would have the option of destroying END, and that he hopes he would do so. What ended up happening was that Igneel gave Natsu his power, and Zeref thought that was good enough. Then after Igneel's power ran out, Zeref stopped trying to die. END was never part of the plan. If END was part of the plan, then Zeref would have made moves to reawaken it before the fought the first time in Alvarez. Like I said, there are times when the curse kicks in and Zeref's thoughts contradict themselves. That was an example where he wasn't sure if he wanted to kill Natsu or die to him. Zeref is still perfectly sane the vast majority of the time, the same way Mavis is. When he talked to Natsu during the Alvarez Arc, he was perfectly coherent and didn't contradict his own words.

Neither have I, I'm just not impressed by IgNatsu either, at least not now that I've seen how Base Natsu stacks up.

To me that suggests Zeref noticed Natsu power up, not that everything he does now is better than everything he previously could do.
That was a different attack and Zeref was much more casual with it.

Yeah, that's exactly why I brought Jacob up, it's the best comparison since he was dealing with Natsu limited by the guild, just like Zeref was in the rematch. It's also a good comparison because Base Natsu needed Horologium to save him from Transport(he also struggled with Brandish's hax), while END is by default too powerful for Dimaria or Brandish. So yeah, END has the better performance than Base Natsu, just like IgNatsu.

The manga says the fusion caused the coma, END prevented the coma, ergo the manga is saying the fusion stopped while he was in END(by my interpretation). As for implication that the Demon Seed was winning, Natsu turning into a Demon is pretty damn heavy implication in my book, plus him desiring to kill Zeref, the will of the Demon Seed took over Natsu's desires, imo it wouldn't have been long before the choice of "Demon" was made if he kept following that will.

But it is true... there was literally no other reason to choose Natsu as his killer other than END.
Zeref thought it was good enough cause power of the dead, not because of raw power.
Like I told you, you don't know Zeref didn't make moves, in fact I gave you two fantastic examples of moves he's made. One of which HAS to be him trying to awaken END by your own interpretation of what END is.
As for the Tartaros thing, Zeref acts on emotion, whether he's sane or not he will throw out his plans just to see Natsu a little longer, so him hoping that it's Natsu that reaches him and not END despite that not being his plan isn't strange at all. I mean, do you really think he said that because he thinks Natsu would give him a better fight? No, he was clearly talking with his feelings, not with strategy.

 

[WoWfan]

No, Zeref is not sane at all of the time as he contradicts his point and logic from practically any moment in the story, Mavis is different as she was a spirit and would not hurt people as she was with friends too, Zeref was isolated most of his life, you are either sane or not, there is no middle ground. Actually Zeref did contradict his own words when he said he wanted Natsu to go with Igneel to learn language and writing. And he hoped for END to face him too.

 

[Axiomus]

Neither have I, I'm just not impressed by IgNatsu either, at least not now that I've seen how Base Natsu stacks up.

To me that suggests Zeref noticed Natsu power up, not that everything he does now is better than everything he previously could do.
That was a different attack and Zeref was much more casual with it.

Yeah, that's exactly why I brought Jacob up, it's the best comparison since he was dealing with Natsu limited by the guild, just like Zeref was in the rematch. It's also a good comparison because Base Natsu needed Horologium to save him from Transport(he also struggled with Brandish's hax), while END is by default too powerful for Dimaria or Brandish. So yeah, END has the better performance than Base Natsu, just like IgNatsu.

The manga says the fusion caused the coma, END prevented the coma, ergo the manga is saying the fusion stopped while he was in END(by my interpretation). As for implication that the Demon Seed was winning, Natsu turning into a Demon is pretty damn heavy implication in my book, plus him desiring to kill Zeref, the will of the Demon Seed took over Natsu's desires, imo it wouldn't have been long before the choice of "Demon" was made if he kept following that will.

But it is true... there was literally no other reason to choose Natsu as his killer other than END.
Zeref thought it was good enough cause power of the dead, not because of raw power.
Like I told you, you don't know Zeref didn't make moves, in fact I gave you two fantastic examples of moves he's made. One of which HAS to be him trying to awaken END by your own interpretation of what END is.
As for the Tartaros thing, Zeref acts on emotion, whether he's sane or not he will throw out his plans just to see Natsu a little longer, so him hoping that it's Natsu that reaches him and not END despite that not being his plan isn't strange at all. I mean, do you really think he said that because he thinks Natsu would give him a better fight? No, he was clearly talking with his feelings, not with strategy.

I guess if you think Zeref is so weak that anyone that can stalemate Gray can kill him, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I still don't think END's power was ever involved with Zeref's plan. Are you talking about when Zeref tried to kill Makarov? Negative emotions by itself doesn't awaken END. The seed has to already be there. Natsu's friends have been hurt lots of times, and he's never turned into END. When I say Zeref should make attempts to awaken END, I meant Zeref should have done something with the book. END's power was able to go into Lucy when she messed with it. I find it hard to believe that Zeref couldn't have found a way to get it into Natsu, especially with him being the creator and Natsu being the intended host.

 

[WoWfan]

That is your opinion then, with everything, it is not only a matter of power, but of hax that is required to kill Zeref, and END would have the skills for that.

 

[Seven777]

I guess if you think Zeref is so weak that anyone that can stalemate Gray can kill him, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I still don't think END's power was ever involved with Zeref's plan. Are you talking about when Zeref tried to kill Makarov? Negative emotions by itself doesn't awaken END. The seed has to already be there. Natsu's friends have been hurt lots of times, and he's never turned into END. When I say Zeref should make attempts to awaken END, I meant Zeref should have done something with the book. END's power was able to go into Lucy when she messed with it. I find it hard to believe that Zeref couldn't have found a way to get it into Natsu, especially with him being the creator and Natsu being the intended host.

Only if they have ENDs ability to get around Zeref's immortality
I missed your Zeref>Gray point before because my answer is complicated and I meant to come back to it and forgot, so I'll address it in this comment. Zeref ain't that much stronger than Gray, offensively he's not at all stronger, in CQC he is inferior and in intelligence he's far inferior(talking about battle sense). Zeref's got durability on him, that's pretty much it.
Now for END, my opinion on him and Gray has fluctuated a lot over the years, but this is where I currently stand.
Scenario 1: END was complete when he faced Gray, which means he was matching the full extent of Gray's DeS advantage and still fighting on equal terms, in which case I rank END head and shoulders above Zeref since I think Gray's attacks are already an equal match for Zeref's, but with DeS advantage he is in an entirely different league. END matching that is better than what IgNatsu has done imo, even in FDK mode.
Scenario 2: END was only just starting out it's transformation and had much more to go, so DeS advantage wasn't much of a factor. In which case END is weaker, but would eventually evolve to that level and likely beyond.
Scenario 3: END was mostly transformed, maybe had a bit more to go and suffered from partial DeS advantage, in which case I rank him more or less the same as IgNatsu.
These days I'm leaning more to Scenario 3, but i find all plausible and END kills Zeref in all scenarios except maybe 2 if END doesn't evolve in time, which i find unlikely.
As for where I rank Demo Fist, yeah, a little below Raiko seems right. Erza dealt with Raiko decently as I recall, would she do as well bare handed? No imo, but she'd still do it, especially when she has magic reserves to spare and PoF reasons.

I was more referring to Gray, but sure, Makarov too.
As far as we know you can't awaken END with the book.

 

[WoWfan]

Well they have END’s ability to bypass god powers that would be the key to it

 

[aymen24]

Mashima says acno is the strongest in the original fairy tail universe

Spoiler: ....

 

[Demon Hunter]

Mashima says acno is the strongest in the original fairy tail universe

Spoiler: ....

yeah, we really didn't know who was the strongest in the original manga.
it was so hard to figure that out it made Jigsaw Puzzle look easy
this is the biggest revelation in 21 century

 

[WoWfan]

We already knew that but thanks anyway

 

[Ramen]

Mashima says acno is the strongest in the original fairy tail universe

Spoiler: ....

You could've solved the case of Jack the ripper. Damn, and here I thought the strongest was Romeo.

 

[aymen24]

There are people who don't see that.
Maybe even here on the forum
That's why they put the question
It's simple

 

[grey matter]

Mashima says acno is the strongest in the original fairy tail universe

Spoiler: ....

Why would anyone act this question lol, it's self evident