Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Shoutmon]

I think there's a big misconception of what constitutes base and FDK. There is no such thing as "base FDK". FDK is a type of fire. It has no consistent power level. When Natsu is casual, FDK can be no sold by Madmole. When Natsu is more serious, FDK can overpower Madmole. When Natsu triggers DF, FDK can obliterate Zeref's body or burn Aldoron's thorns. When Natsu is at peak emotional state, FDK can burn infinite MP of Fairy Heart and becomes too hot for Natsu's slayer resistance. That's the maximum potential of FDK. Eating Ignia's flames allowed FDK to reach max potential too. It burned away Mercphobia's MP and his own hands.

Base Natsu's flames has a maximum potential too. It's just much lower than FDK's. I dont think it gets much stronger than Tartaros DF. You can think of Tartaros arc Natsu needing DF to use base flames max potential, but current can reach that same max potential much easier.

I'm guessing this is in reference to my comment, so I just want to clarify my views.

When I say "Base FDK", I really just mean FDK without any power-ups like DF, Flames of Emotions or the mode

I believe that FDK Mode Natsu's FDK spells > Base Natsu's. Think of it like the mode allowing him to use the FDK spells at a greater potential than he could at base. As for why he doesn't use it more often, it's probably the same reason why he doesn't just use DF every fight.

DF magnifies all his stats and powers, and his FoM allows him to generate magic power out of nothing but his emotions IIRC, so his FDK spells would also be amplified (or brought closer to/at their max potential, as you describe it)

 

[Axiomus]

FDK does get stronger with

I'm guessing this is in reference to my comment, so I just want to clarify my views.

When I say "Base FDK", I really just mean FDK without any power-ups like DF, Flames of Emotions or the mode

I believe that FDK Mode Natsu's FDK spells > Base Natsu's. Think of it like the mode allowing him to use the FDK spells at a greater potential than he could at base. As for why he doesn't use it more often, it's probably the same reason why he doesn't just use DF every fight.

DF magnifies all his stats and powers, and his FoM allows him to generate magic power out of nothing but his emotions IIRC, so his FDK spells would also be amplified (or brought closer to/at their max potential, as you describe it)

Flames of emotions is active at all times. It's just part of Natsu's magic.

It's possible that the mode gives Natsu some sort of a power-up, but the FDK destruction fist that beat Zeref was without the mode. So it's entirely possible to just ignore the mode, or even DF, if Natsu is emotional enough.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 10, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 10, 2023 ---

You should be on vsbw and @grey matter but he seems to have given up on ft power scaling. Are you on vsbw

Im not. I've seen some people argue for FT against other fictional verses though. It can get a bit ridiculous.

 

[Darklord#10]

FDK does get stronger with


Flames of emotions is active at all times. It's just part of Natsu's magic.

It's possible that the mode gives Natsu some sort of a power-up, but the FDK destruction fist that beat Zeref was without the mode. So it's entirely possible to just ignore the mode, or even DF, if Natsu is emotional enough.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 10, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 10, 2023 ---

Im not. I've seen some people argue for FT against other fictional verses though. It can get a bit ridiculous.

I'm really impressed by how you're able to still keep debating with Erza fans.

 

[Shoutmon]

FDK does get stronger with


Flames of emotions is active at all times. It's just part of Natsu's magic.

It's possible that the mode gives Natsu some sort of a power-up, but the FDK destruction fist that beat Zeref was without the mode. So it's entirely possible to just ignore the mode, or even DF, if Natsu is emotional enough.

Right. I think we're on the same page here mostly.

Natsu's emotions can allow him to use his FDK attacks to a higher degree than with the mode or DF, but only with his 'savage emotions' or whatever.

As Natsu described it, he uses the power of the guild to fuel his flames (with his guild mark glowing to signify this). This is different from his 'normal' FoM that's always active. It's a powered-up version basically, and one he probably can't use whenever he wants (since it's an emotion-based power-up)

Base Natsu's FDK Flames without 'Savage Emotions' = 'Base' FDK Flames basically. It may fluctuate a bit based on his anger, but it's still weaker than with the other amps

 

[grey matter]

Man, I wouldn't try to make sense of FH Zeref vs Natsu

It is the single most retarded fight in the series, even through the abundance of BS fights.

Irrespective of how you guys feel about how much powerup Natsu got from his flames of emotions, I think we can at least agree it's a finite amount of power.
How you burn away "infinite magic" using finite magic power is completely incomprehensible to me.

 

[Shoutmon]

Man, I wouldn't try to make sense of FH Zeref vs Natsu

It is the single most retarded fight in the series, even through the abundance of BS fights.

Irrespective of how you guys feel about how much powerup Natsu got from his flames of emotions, I think we can at least agree it's a finite amount of power.
How you burn away "infinite magic" using finite magic power is completely incomprehensible to me.

I'll throw Mashima a bone in one aspect of this fight.

Flames of Emotions was said to generate magic power from nothing but Natsu's emotions when it was first revealed early in the manga IIRC, so looking at it from that perspective, Natsu technically also had 'unlimited' magic power for as long as he was really emotional and his body's in one piece.

I still think that the fight was complete garbage, though, especially for a fight that was hyped up for so long.

EDIT: Alright, I read your comment again and it looks like I misunderstood. Yeah, Natsu would need infinitely powerful flames to wipe out Zeref's infinite magic reserves, not just a constantly regenerating source of MP

 

[grey matter]

The mistake you guys make is thinking that Natsu burned away all of Zeref's mp. But Fairy Heart is just a magic power that can generate infinite magic power, not infinite power in itself. It's the same reason Zeref didn't have to instantly absorb infinite power when he took FH from Mavis. All Natsu did was burn through the source magic that made up FH as well as whatever amount of magic Zeref used for the spell he countered with at the time. We already have a physical example of this previously. Hades' heart produced unlimited magic power as long as it was active. But they didn't need to destroy unlimited magic power to take it out, just the source. Just think of the Natsu vs Zeref thing as him destroying a piece of magic instead of a machine.

I get what you are saying.
I have also thought of it in the same direction, specifically the exact example you bought up - Grimoire Heart.

Yes, functionally they are the same.
Hades was the creator of FH itself, he replicated his research and created a twisted copy of FH - the GH

Here is the issue with this though.
Grimoire Heart is a "tool" that is an infinite source of MP. So all you need to destroy is the "tool" itself to deal with the magic supply from it...similar to Alta Face in a way.

Issue here is that fairy heart seems closer to a "concept" than a "tool". It doesn't have any form, it is just there...... just "something" intangible that existed within Mavis first, then within Zeref after he absorbed it.

 

[Ronin31]

I get what you are saying.
I have also thought of it in the same direction, specifically the exact example you bought up - Grimoire Heart.

Yes, functionally they are the same.
Hades was the creator of FH itself, he replicated his research and created a twisted copy of FH - the GH

Here is the issue with this though.
Grimoire Heart is a "tool" that is an infinite source of MP. So all you need to destroy is the "tool" itself to deal with the magic supply from it...similar to Alta Face in a way.

Issue here is that fairy heart seems closer to a "concept" than a "tool". It doesn't have any form, it is just there...... just "something" intangible that existed within Mavis first, then within Zeref after he absorbed it.

Agree but even as a "concept", it has a limit or a durability. Like said, it is only a "generator" of a limitless MP that can be burn or being break.
Like Grimoire Heart as a very good exemple.

I can take exemple with Erza and her elemental armors : she can produce element like fire, wind, water, lightning and even defend against them but can be broken, annihilating these power source.

 

[Shoutmon]

The mistake you guys make is thinking that Natsu burned away all of Zeref's mp. But Fairy Heart is just a magic power that can generate infinite magic power, not infinite power in itself. It's the same reason Zeref didn't have to instantly absorb infinite power when he took FH from Mavis. All Natsu did was burn through the source magic that made up FH as well as whatever amount of magic Zeref used for the spell he countered with at the time. We already have a physical example of this previously. Hades' heart produced unlimited magic power as long as it was active. But they didn't need to destroy unlimited magic power to take it out, just the source. Just think of the Natsu vs Zeref thing as him destroying a piece of magic instead of a machine.

This actually makes way more sense. I never really thought of equating FH to GH.

So Natsu could burn it due to his flames having that magic-burning hax.

The fight overall is imo still complete garbage though, due to that not being made a bit more clear and because it got interrupted every 2 seconds by something else + it being constrained to the guild (so most attacks thrown looked fodder-tier)

 

[Axiomus]

Right. I think we're on the same page here mostly.

Natsu's emotions can allow him to use his FDK attacks to a higher degree than with the mode or DF, but only with his 'savage emotions' or whatever.

As Natsu described it, he uses the power of the guild to fuel his flames (with his guild mark glowing to signify this). This is different from his 'normal' FoM that's always active. It's a powered-up version basically, and one he probably can't use whenever he wants (since it's an emotion-based power-up)

Base Natsu's FDK Flames without 'Savage Emotions' = 'Base' FDK Flames basically. It may fluctuate a bit based on his anger, but it's still weaker than with the other amps

The guildmark glowing tells us that he's tapping into his feelings for the guild, but it's still ultimately just flames of emotions. You can argue that Natsu doesnt normally get this emotional, but that's not really the issue here. He's still converting emotion into power - without the mode.

We also have Natsu overpowering Madmole with FDK Purgatory without the mode, simply because he tried harder. Natsu is now able to use generate FDK scales, also without using the mode. This gives his skin a level of defense he previously only had in Dragon Force.

So we're left with a situation where Natsu's hottest flames and best defense are things that dont really require the mode.

 

[Shoutmon]

The guildmark glowing tells us that he's tapping into his feelings for the guild, but it's still ultimately just flames of emotions. You can argue that Natsu doesnt normally get this emotional, but that's not really the issue here. He's still converting emotion into power - without the mode.

We also have Natsu overpowering Madmole with FDK Purgatory without the mode, simply because he tried harder. Natsu is now able to use generate FDK scales, also without using the mode. This gives his skin a level of defense he previously only had in Dragon Force.

So we're left with a situation where Natsu's hottest flames and best defense are things that dont really require the mode.

FDK Purgatory is a different spell serving a different purpose. While Demo Fist focuses more on blunt, destructive force (that Madmole can no-sell), Purgatory seems to focus on overwhelming heat(that can bypass Madmole's blunt-force defenses), and the FDK scales don't even use flames at all. He could've just flexed his scales similar to what Gajeel can do + we don't know for a fact that its defense is as high as DF.

Like I said, when Natsu's emotional enough, his FoM can amp his FDK to a level that surpasses what his other power-ups can allow, but he can't just use his FoM to such a high degree whenever he wants. If he could, then him entering DF against Aldoron would've been completely unnecessary. In most scenarios, his other power-ups/amps make his/his flames stronger than what he's capable of in base.

 

[Axiomus]

The mistake you guys make is thinking that Natsu burned away all of Zeref's mp. But Fairy Heart is just a magic power that can generate infinite magic power, not infinite power in itself. It's the same reason Zeref didn't have to instantly absorb infinite power when he took FH from Mavis. All Natsu did was burn through the source magic that made up FH as well as whatever amount of magic Zeref used for the spell he countered with at the time. We already have a physical example of this previously. Hades' heart produced unlimited magic power as long as it was active. But they didn't need to destroy unlimited magic power to take it out, just the source. Just think of the Natsu vs Zeref thing as him destroying a piece of magic instead of a machine.

Grimoire Heart isnt actually unlimited. It's a finite power source, unlike Fairy Heart.

We have no way to tell if the MP inside of Zeref is infinite or if Fairy Heart just creates as much MP as needed, but it doesn't really matter imo. Fairy Heart doesnt allow Zeref to use infinite power in all his spells. The magic he actually uses is finite in scope. All we know is stuff like rewinding time requires the boost from FH, and that's really what Natsu had to burn to beat Zeref.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 11, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 11, 2023 ---

FDK Purgatory is a different spell serving a different purpose. While Demo Fist focuses more on blunt, destructive force (that Madmole can no-sell), Purgatory seems to focus on overwhelming heat(that can bypass Madmole's blunt-force defenses), and the FDK scales don't even use flames at all. He could've just flexed his scales similar to what Gajeel can do + we don't know for a fact that its defense is as high as DF.

Like I said, when Natsu's emotional enough, his FoM can amp his FDK to a level that surpasses what his other power-ups can allow, but he can't just use his FoM to such a high degree whenever he wants. If he could, then him entering DF against Aldoron would've been completely unnecessary. In most scenarios, his other power-ups/amps make his/his flames stronger than what he's capable of in base.

It's still ultimately FDK flames. I mean, hotter flames is ultimately the thing we're conparing right?

Gajeel's scales ultimately arent as tough as actual dragon scales (can be broken without DSM). FDK scales are tougher than actual dragon scales Suzaku's sword can cut. They might actually scale above DF, since the scales in DF might not be FDK scales.

I agree that Natsu isnt always as emotional as when he fought Zeref. But flames of emotions are still active at all times, and some of FDK's best feats are done without the mode.

 

[Shoutmon]

Grimoire Heart isnt actually unlimited. It's a finite power source, unlike Fairy Heart.

We have no way to tell if the MP inside of Zeref is infinite or if Fairy Heart just creates as much MP as needed, but it doesn't really matter imo. Fairy Heart doesnt allow Zeref to use infinite power in all his spells. The magic he actually uses is finite in scope. All we know is stuff like rewinding time requires the boost from FH, and that's really what Natsu had to burn to beat Zeref.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 11, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 11, 2023 ---

It's still ultimately FDK flames. I mean, hotter flames is ultimately the thing we're conparing right?

Gajeel's scales ultimately arent as tough as actual dragon scales (can be broken without DSM). FDK scales are tougher than actual dragon scales Suzaku's sword can cut. They might actually scale above DF, since the scales in DF might not be FDK scales.

I agree that Natsu isnt always as emotional as when he fought Zeref. But flames of emotions are still active at all times, and some of FDK's best feats are done without the mode.

Well we're specifically comparing Base Natsu using FDK stuff vs FDKM and DF Natsu using FDK stuff.

EDIT: some more clarity. We're debating whether or not his FDK flames has a 'base' level(i.e weaker than what he can produce with the mode, DF or a savage-flames level FoM boost).

Regarding the FDK spells we've seen so far, we have no reference for how powerful they would be if he used them with the mode or DF (in the current series). We know that DF makes him and his flames stronger than base (his DF allowed him to easily burn Aldoron's attacks when his base was incapable of doing so). It is my belief that the mode also increases his flames' power. Natsu doesn't use either of those power-ups when he really should, for plot reasons.

DS scales are as hard as the owner is powerful. Natsu's probably stronger than the dragons that Suzaku fought, so he has enough power to reinforce his scales to a greater level of defense than what those dragons had. We don't know for sure that his other power-ups can't reinforce the scales more, 'cause like I said, Natsu doesn't use his power-ups when he really should.

While their best feats were done without the mode, that was either because his FoM amped them to an extreme degree, or because we never got to see how strong they would be while he's using the mode

 

[Shoutmon]

Just want to point out that not only do the scales use the flames, the flames ARE the scales according to Natsu.

Ah, I stand corrected.

 

[Dimitri1220]

I get what you are saying.
I have also thought of it in the same direction, specifically the exact example you bought up - Grimoire Heart.

Yes, functionally they are the same.
Hades was the creator of FH itself, he replicated his research and created a twisted copy of FH - the GH

Here is the issue with this though.
Grimoire Heart is a "tool" that is an infinite source of MP. So all you need to destroy is the "tool" itself to deal with the magic supply from it...similar to Alta Face in a way.

Issue here is that fairy heart seems closer to a "concept" than a "tool". It doesn't have any form, it is just there...... just "something" intangible that existed within Mavis first, then within Zeref after he absorbed it.

I don’t see how that’s it an issue though since we’ve seen conceptual magic in the past get negged by other magic, such as Natsu’s flames.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 13, 2023 ---

This isn’t something new in Fairy Tail, and it seems like there are gonna be more examples in the future since the next dragon god is a literal concept.

 

[Darklord#10]

How does a dragon god get nerfed so bad he becomes bdsk level. Was dogramag always fodder? He got nerfed so bad that natsu was able to damage him and suzaku could cut him. What do you guys think was the purpose of weakening him. I felt that natsu and suzaku was enough to take him out, I mean he didn't need to be nerfed that bad. Atleast they could have kept like 60 dogra cores plus the five in his body. 65. That would make more sense. It also has me wondering the boundary between the dragon gods and DF natsu/bdsk level. Was it all just hype?

 

[Shoutmon]

How does a dragon god get nerfed so bad he becomes bdsk level. Was dogramag always fodder? He got nerfed so bad that natsu was able to damage him and suzaku could cut him. What do you guys think was the purpose of weakening him. I felt that natsu and suzaku was enough to take him out, I mean he didn't need to be nerfed that bad. Atleast they could have kept like 60 dogra cores plus the five in his body. 65. That would make more sense. It also has me wondering the boundary between the dragon gods and DF natsu/bdsk level. Was it all just hype?

He got nerfed like that because of garbage writing/ powerscale handling.

He was the weakest already and woke up nerfed, then said that Natsu would be a good challenge for him, only to then no-sell all of his (and Suzaku's) attacks and mock Natsu for being too weak to hurt him.

I can only guess that Mashima realized afterwards that what he had set up would've made Natsu progress too much, and thus decided to over-buff Dogramag and introduce the second nerf

 

[Darklord#10]

He was the weakest already and woke up nerfed, then said that Natsu would be a good challenge for him, only to then no-sell all of his (and Suzaku's) attacks and mock Natsu for being too weak to hurt him.

You see this is what doesn't make sense to me he was already nerfed when he woke up but the dogra cores was also granting him durability amp according to selene, check the chapter again. So him getting nerfed 72x made absolutely no sense and how did he not Sense that his cores was destroyed they were amping him? Labyrinth arc has to be one of the worst arc if not the worst arc in the whole fT. Literally nothing makes sense. Well I guess the positives was Lucy vs kyria. My main question is that how can a dragon god get nerfed so bad he becomes bdsk level, he was getting blown back by demo fist suzaku could cut the rocks.

 

[Ratrace]

You see this is what doesn't make sense to me he was already nerfed when he woke up but the dogra cores was also granting him durability amp according to selene, check the chapter again. So him getting nerfed 72x made absolutely no sense and how did he not Sense that his cores was destroyed they were amping him? Labyrinth arc has to be one of the worst arc if not the worst arc in the whole fT. Literally nothing makes sense. Well I guess the positives was Lucy vs kyria. My main question is that how can a dragon god get nerfed so bad he becomes bdsk level, he was getting blown back by demo fist suzaku could cut the rocks.

You’re right it doesn’t make sense but it seems like if Hiro wants a character to win a battle he’ll make sure they do no matter how stupid it is

 

[FireIce]

How would you guys rank the 10 strongest people in the guild?