I mostly agree with this. But in casual circumstances, no PoF or crazy momentum enhancement like Purgatory Dragon Force, I should place Dragon Force Natsu (his classic one) in Top Tier. Same, I should currently place Laxus and Erza in Top Tier as well as I think, they reached Gildarts level this Arc.
- PS : Erza always begin all battles at High Tier-B and increases her stats to Top Tier with determination (Laxus or Misaki's fight).
Lucy and Wendy can be place in mid tier as well. They both have grown stronger as well and I think they can give a run to Base Natsu/Gray/Gajeel if the girls use their best shots.
For Gray, if he is in control like all his current fights, I agree. If he begins insane due to his Demon corruption, I think he can reach High Tier-A.
I mostly agree with this. But in casual circumstances, no PoF or crazy momentum enhancement like Purgatory Dragon Force, I should place Dragon Force Natsu (his classic one) in Top Tier. Same, I should currently place Laxus and Erza in Top Tier as well as I think, they reached Gildarts level this Arc.
- PS : Erza always begin all battles at High Tier-B and increases her stats to Top Tier with determination (Laxus or Misaki's fight).
Lucy and Wendy can be place in mid tier as well. They both have grown stronger as well and I think they can give a run to Base Natsu/Gray/Gajeel if the girls use their best shots.
For Gray, if he is in control like all his current fights, I agree. If he begins insane due to his Demon corruption, I think he can reach High Tier-A.
Even just regular DF Natsu should be way ahead of Gildarts.
To make a comparison, consider what DF Natsu and Gildarts accomplished in x792. To be noted is that Natsu didn't have POF or other nonsense here (that happened much later with savage guild flames or some shit), he just naturally turned DF, so this should be what Natsu is capable naturally with his DF.
Gildarts' strongest attack, which August wasn't immune to, only managed to give him a bloody lip. August was otherwise fine, and tanked the attack.
DF Natsu's strongest attack, completely vapourized the body of FH Zeref, who is >> August.
I disagree about Laxus and Erza getting to Gildarts tier, though I certainly understand why you would think so. Laxus and Erza have defeated opponents who have been directly compared to Gildarts.
Here is the issue though, none of them have seen Gildarts since the 100YQ started, so the Gildarts they are comparing to the is Gildarts they saw before the spinoff. Which means, Gildarts has a month or so to improve. Just as everyone else improved over the spinoff, I think Gildarts could've improved as well.
I'm just going off based on my instincts, and say/predict that when Gildarts finally makes his appearance in the spinoff, his performance is gonna blow Laxus and Erza off the water. It would be uncharacteristic of Mashima to save this dude for so long, and then not have him upstage the rest of the good guys when he finally comes in to shine. Just my instinct.
And lastly, I don't think RL and non versions of Laxus belong in different tiers.
Laxus didn't have RL in x792, and was still ahead of Erza back then, he has RL in x793 and he is still slightly ahead of Erza. Mashima simply goes of on portrayal here, feats/techniques doesn't matter to him.
And, I also think Jellal lands squarely wherever Laxus lands. Again for this, consider a thought experiment. If Mashima did a Laxus vs Jellal, would it not be an extreme diff? Considering how they were getting teased during the course of the spinoff, I'd say with certainty that if he did it, he would've made it an extreme diff. RL or no RL wouldn't matter for Mashima.
As for Lucy and Wendy, I think yes, under the right circumstances, I can now see them giving base Natsu some difficulty. Maybe they can barely get into base Natsu's tier.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
What is "insane DeS Gray" ?
I assume it's the darkness Gray from Alverez?
I'd honestly put that Gray between Laxus and Gildarts, if not outright at Gildarts level (relative to their Alverez levels obviously). He no diff'd Invel in his base, and had stats which matched partial END.
But that is a Gray which we will unfortunately likely never see again, so no point ranking him until he shows up lol
Even just regular DF Natsu should be way ahead of Gildarts.
To make a comparison, consider what DF Natsu and Gildarts accomplished in x792. To be noted is that Natsu didn't have POF or other nonsense here (that happened much later with savage guild flames or some shit), he just naturally turned DF, so this should be what Natsu is capable naturally with his DF.
Gildarts' strongest attack, which August wasn't immune to, only managed to give him a bloody lip. August was otherwise fine, and tanked the attack.
DF Natsu's strongest attack, completely vapourized the body of FH Zeref, who is >> August.
I understand what you mean but nothing suggest Zeleph's body was tougher than August's. This guy didn't have to train physically over 400years because of his curse of immortality. Nothing can kill him, his curse directly restores him. With Fairy Heart, Zeleph could in a blink evade Natsu's best shot and then restores through space and time, to show that he masters them. Still, I expect Natsu's Dragon Force to be as strong as his savage flames because his Dragon Scales are the strongest version of his rage. I think, by ignition like he did with Savage Flames, the result should be the same. I consider the blow who destroyed Fairy Heart, at least as strong as Gildarts best shot. This is why I put them in same tier : Natsu can be stronger but not by such mergin putting him in a different class.
I disagree about Laxus and Erza getting to Gildarts tier, though I certainly understand why you would think so. Laxus and Erza have defeated opponents who have been directly compared to Gildarts.
Here is the issue though, none of them have seen Gildarts since the 100YQ started, so the Gildarts they are comparing to the is Gildarts they saw before the spinoff. Which means, Gildarts has a month or so to improve. Just as everyone else improved over the spinoff, I think Gildarts could've improved as well.
I'm just going off based on my instincts, and say/predict that when Gildarts finally makes his appearance in the spinoff, his performance is gonna blow Laxus and Erza off the water. It would be uncharacteristic of Mashima to save this dude for so long, and then not have him upstage the rest of the good guys when he finally comes in to shine. Just my instinct.
I take Gildarts' improvement in consideration since the beginning of the Quest and this is why I put all three in same tier and not Erza/Laxus a tier higher after a win against opponents on Gildarts' level they know.
I think his magic strike is highly higher than his classic one. This magic is highly more lethal as he said to Erza "in order to defeat you, smalls attacks won't work". He was referring to his classic magic who easily destroyed Erza's armor. For me, his RL is a clear buff in magic attack (and not in physical stats) in same way FDK or LDF are for Natsu. So, this put him in a higher tier, just like LFD Natsu is to Base Natsu.
I'd honestly put that Gray between Laxus and Gildarts, if not outright at Gildarts level (relative to their Alverez levels obviously). He no diff'd Invel in his base, and had stats which matched partial END.
But that is a Gray which we will unfortunately likely never see again, so no point ranking him until he shows up lol
For me, the Darkness Gray we saw in Albaless was the peak of his insanity due to tragedic circumstances. I mean, this Gray could be called "Devil Force" this period and yes, for me, his level could be Gildarts' Tier or very close.
I call "insanity" the process he gradually looses his mental sanity while using his Devil Slayers powers for some period, like when he fought Invel in this form just before Jubia's arrival. All his stats are growing in proportion of his darkness in his heart. It's a Berserker mode in process where his peak was vs END. Yes, we never see him like this again (his peak potential) but his rage is still here when he uses it. For a long fight against a rival, Gray can be very dangerous as more he looses control, more he is strong in all stats. It's more or less Natsu's flame of emotion in process but tending to the Dark.
I understand what you mean but nothing suggest Zeleph's body was tougher than August's. This guy didn't have to train physically over 400years because of his curse of immortality. Nothing can kill him, his curse directly restores him. With Fairy Heart, Zeleph could in a blink evade Natsu's best shot and then restores through space and time, to show that he masters them. Still, I expect Natsu's Dragon Force to be as strong as his savage flames because his Dragon Scales are the strongest version of his rage. I think, by ignition like he did with Savage Flames, the result should be the same. I consider the blow who destroyed Fairy Heart, at least as strong as Gildarts best shot. This is why I put them in same tier : Natsu can be stronger but not by such mergin putting him in a different class.
That's an assumption, right?
However, we can both agree that base Zeref is above August purely by portrayal, right? Ad FH Zeref is leageus stronger. So, DF Natsu has the feat of vaping a much stronger overall opponent.
Base Zeref's body tanked everything Natsu with Igneel flames threw at him though until the supposed final attack, so it's not like Zeref is some fodder in durability. He has some decent durability feats.
And with FH, is stats improve several fold. DF Natsu still vap'd him
I take Gildarts' improvement in consideration since the beginning of the Quest and this is why I put all three in same tier and not Erza/Laxus a tier higher after a win against opponents on Gildarts' level they know.
I think his magic strike is highly higher than his classic one. This magic is highly more lethal as he said to Erza "in order to defeat you, smalls attacks won't work". He was referring to his classic magic who easily destroyed Erza's armor. For me, his RL is a clear buff in magic attack (and not in physical stats) in same way FDK or LDF are for Natsu. So, this put him in a higher tier, just like LFD Natsu is to Base Natsu.
Like I said before. I'm ignoring specifics of feats/techniques all together and just basing off on portrayal. Logically, yeah you're right, RL is a boost to the attack power and should jump him up above where his base is.
Consider a hypothetical match in x792 where Laxus didn't have RL. Would the fight have gone pretty much the same? I would think so. In fact, in x792 Laxus would've probably won with high diff instead of extreme diff, because the gap between Erza and Laxus gets larger as we go further and further back in time.
Consider a hypothetical match in Aldo arc where Jellal fought him instead of Erza. Would Mashima have made this an extreme diff? I would think so
For me, the Darkness Gray we saw in Albaless was the peak of his insanity due to tragedic circumstances. I mean, this Gray could be called "Devil Force" this period and yes, for me, his level could be Gildarts' Tier or very close.
I call "insanity" the process he gradually looses his mental sanity while using his Devil Slayers powers for some period, like when he fought Invel in this form just before Jubia's arrival. All his stats are growing in proportion of his darkness in his heart. It's a Berserker mode in process where his peak was vs END. Yes, we never see him like this again (his peak potential) but his rage is still here when he uses it. For a long fight against a rival, Gray can be very dangerous as more he looses control, more he is strong in all stats. It's more or less Natsu's flame of emotion in process but tending to the Dark.
Yeah, darkness Gray would be at the top tier for me along with Gildarts, surpassed truly only by DF Natsu (who would probably just stomp him). A controversial opinion according to most of the fandom, but that's fine lol.
I think it's reasonable. Darkness Gray stomped someone who was stronger than his regular DeS mode. Plus all the feats with END
But also base on portrayal, Gildarts is and will always be the strongest of Fairy Tail, right ? Isn't his portrayal far above Natsu's in the hierarchie of the Guild ?
If so, how can Gildarts' rival be below Natsu's rival ?
Again, it's controversal. Even by portrayal without speaking about feats...
Consider a hypothetical match in x792 where Laxus didn't have RL. Would the fight have gone pretty much the same? I would think so. In fact, in x792 Laxus would've probably won with high diff instead of extreme diff, because the gap between Erza and Laxus gets larger as we go further and further back in time.
Yeah, darkness Gray would be at the top tier for me along with Gildarts, surpassed truly only by DF Natsu (who would probably just stomp him). A controversial opinion according to most of the fandom, but that's fine lol.
I think it's reasonable. Darkness Gray stomped someone who was stronger than his regular DeS mode. Plus all the feats with END
I think people can't recall how strong was Gray at his peak. Current Gray has bad writting and is the shadow of who he really was (Gray never acted as a coward for exemple), but at the end of Arbaless, he trully was Natsu's rival. For me, yes, at his peak, period, he was even stronger than Laxus.
Gray currently has same writting as Son Gohan in Dragon Ball Super (I stop at the tournament because, for me, it was a shame and a joke in front of the Original Manga) : in DBZ, Son Gohan was highly the strongest non Fuse character in the verse and by far. In DBS, can he be compare to Son Goku's strength ?
I feel the same for current Laxus (Son Goku) and current Gray (Son Gohan). I want to see Gray shining again, to proove he still is Natsu's best rival. What a shame for such character. He doesn't need to be Gildarts, Laxus or Erza's level, but give him epics moments again....
But also base on portrayal, Gildarts is and will always be the strongest of Fairy Tail, right ? Isn't his portrayal far above Natsu's in the hierarchie of the Guild ?
If so, how can Gildarts' rival be below Natsu's rival ?
Again, it's controversal. Even by portrayal without speaking about feats...
Yep. I'm speaking purely on portrayal.
Based on pure portrayal, Gildarts is in his own tier. Laxus, Jellal, Erza in another tier below him.
Based on current feats.
Laxus and Erza at Gildarts tier. Jellal is at ?? (he only got to fight Gears, who himself we have no idea where he stands relative to others)
I think people can't recall how strong was Gray at his peak. Current Gray has bad writting and is the shadow of who he really was (Gray never acted as a coward for exemple), but at the end of Arbaless, he trully was Natsu's rival. For me, yes, at his peak, period, he was even stronger than Laxus.
Gray currently has same writting as Son Gohan in Dragon Ball Super (I stop at the tournament because, for me, it was a shame and a joke in front of the Original Manga) : in DBZ, Son Gohan was highly the strongest non Fuse character in the verse and by far. In DBS, can he be compare to Son Goku's strength ?
I feel the same for current Laxus (Son Goku) and current Gray (Son Gohan). I want to see Gray shining again, to proove he still is Natsu's best rival. What a shame for such character. He doesn't need to be Gildarts, Laxus or Erza's level, but give him epics moments again....
Gray = Gohan.
Once upon a time, right at the top tier. Now at trash tier. What a damn waste lol.
The dude didn't do ANYTHING in the current arc! Same for Gajeel.
I hope Mashima don't have both of them running after the gems or whatever. I'd rather they do absolutely nothing, than this humiliation.
Gray = Gohan.
Once upon a time, right at the top tier. Now at trash tier. What a damn waste lol.
The dude didn't do ANYTHING in the current arc! Same for Gajeel.
I hope Mashima don't have both of them running after the gems or whatever. I'd rather they do absolutely nothing, than this humiliation.
Yep. A shame for both two incredible characters. I hope Gray will shine in next Arc while being humiliate running after the gems like you said.
Gajeel is in the same case but is not a main character like Gray is. But as a guest, just like Laxus, I expected him to fight a Dragon or a Diabolos Dragon eater.
A waste is not enough here for both Gohan and Gray.
At the beginning, when Erza was lock inside her armor, Laxus was stronger by some mergin and I expect Mystogan and Jellal as well. This is why Laxus was arrogant and cocky in front of her, same for Jellal. Mystogan had more wisdom, saying that Laxus was blind to Erza's hidden or true power level. Perhaps, he was more mystical, just like Makarov was when he thought about Natsu's hidden potential (Dragon Force) to defeat Laxus in Fantasia.
For me, it's during her fight vs Ikaruga that Erza was "reborn". Her power began to be unlock and jump to another tier and continues to grow with her feelings for her nakamas. Jellal was surprised to Erza's level when he battled her, and later when he saw her level in front of Midnight. I think Erza closed the gap with Laxus after the ToH story. Both grew in stats since and one could be above another depending of the situation and the arc but I think they are in same tier since then.
The fight in 100YQ is a direct retcon to "what if... in Fantasia, Natsu went away and Erza have fought Laxus" : same place, Laxus is the ennemy, Erza began in Lightning Armor. The fight is a direct analogy. Laxus could destroy Erza's armor and then Erza could pass in her best level period : hakama pant + her katana. In front of that, replace Red Lightning buff by Laxus monstrous Dragon Slayer Mode.
I see a direct analogy giving us that Laxus and Erza are evenly match. So yes, I think they are as close since ToH or Fantasia by analogy.
That's rich coming from the person constantly trying to convince anyone who'd listen (and people who won't) that Skullion was secretly holding back vs Mira and had an advantage over Gray because he was in water. LMAO! If that's not coping idk what is.
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. For me, they are even.
