Discussion Gowther

[Demonspeed]

I mean, it's not that uncommon to have characters that aren't normally human be unable to get drunk.

It's kind of weird that he gave Gowther...you know, the ability to pleasure others lets say, but not give him the rest of the organs to eat and stuff. What were your priorities original Gowther?

He made him a boy at the last moment after all . Would have been nice to give him the opportunity to eat like a normal person. Gowther himself doesn't seem to care but still.

Now I wonder if his lover is dead or if she is one of the five Induras.

 

[kkck]

Gowther is a doll though.... I don't think he actually has a sex. With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if he was completely smooth down there. He was fairly smooth down there when merlin used absolute cancel though. He shouldn't have "pleasuring" capabilities beyond the limbs we can see.

 

[Gallon]

Gowther is a doll though.... I don't think he actually has a sex. With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if he was completely smooth down there. He was fairly smooth down there when merlin used absolute cancel though. He shouldn't have "pleasuring" capabilities beyond the limbs we can see.

Well, he did have intercourse with Nadja.
Plus, Meliodas covered Elizabeth's eyes when Gowther removed his towel in front of everyone, and Slader jumped into view to see Gowther's thing. XD

 

[Demonspeed]

Gowther definitely has a gender. His dad was truly a genius.

Well, he did have intercourse with Nadja.
Plus, Meliodas covered Elizabeth's eyes when Gowther removed his towel in front of everyone, and Slader jumped into view to see Gowther's thing. XD

Guila as well.

 

[Gallon]

Guila as well.

Right, there was a character called that.

 

[ShadowCT6]

I was about to create a thread with a question related to Gowther, but I decided to post it here.
Anyway, I want your answer and opinion about the following: Does Nakaba really "nerfs" Gowther?
And, please, don't ignore me! I love you!

 

[Demonspeed]

I understand what you mean. I would not say that he is nerfing him, but it looks like it's difficult for him to handle the ability. I sometimes wonder if he regrets giving him Invasion. It is useful to move the plot and twists, but it can also makes things too easy in battle due to how it works. Especially now that Gowther is as strong as he was before. In the first fight against Hendrickson Gowther is the only Sin who didn't hit him with his Magic. Why did Hendrickson prefer to tank the other attacks and yet immediately attacked Gowther when he was going to use Rewrite Light on him? Clearly because if would have affected him. The nerve control thing with the skeletons was badly written, skeletons don't have nerves and Gowther should know it. I hope the lines will be changed in the volume. There are several PIS moments in NNT but it is even more apparent with Gowther now because of his ability.

 

[ShadowCT6]

So, Gowther's PL is 35400, which is a bit disappointing, since all of us were predicting that he should has a PL of 50000 or above.
Do you think that his creator has the same 35400 of power level?

 

[Zehahaha]

So, Gowther's PL is 35400, which is a bit disappointing, since all of us were predicting that he should has a PL of 50000 or above.
Do you think that his creator has the same 35400 of power level?

No way, Gowther Sr seemed to be very strong, I think he is stronger than Monspiet and Derriere

 

[HereNThere]

No way, Gowther Sr seemed to be very strong, I think he is stronger than Monspiet and Derriere

Same here. I'm banking on 60k at the most, personally. He was pretty confident in his ability to hold off Zeldris.

 

[Piety]

The Demon King appointed him the spot of Selflessness and put him in the demon prison for a reason. That reason is probably because he was a little scared of him. Gowther Sr. Is very strong and as much as we know now, he is the one who stopped the holy war. I could Gowther Sr PL being closer to 60k than 50k

 

[kkck]

The main issue when it comes to gowther is that there is very little reason for us to think that more PL would make him a more effective fighter. Invasion has been good enough to work on commandments for a while now, evidenced by it working on galan. Even his sacred treasure does not seem to do much in that regard. He didn't use it against dreyfus or galan. His sacred treasure seems to only increase his range rather than the effectiveness of his invasion. His magic simply does not seem to have high magic requirement nor is the target's PL a factor when it comes to it's effectiveness.

With papa gowther the situation is different. Doll gowther fights using only invasion, a magic which we have seen does not depend on PL to be effective. Papa gowther in turn has invasion but is also called a genius magician. So while he does seem to have invasion there is the implication that there is more to him than just that. If he is more like, say, merlin then he definitely needs high PL for other spells or magics to be effective. Earlier I suggested doll gowther's PL distribution should be something like 22k magic, 10k strength and 2.5 spirit however based on how his magic work, is there a reason for us to think he actually needs that much magic anyways? He would be better off with more strength so that he can better fend of enemies while he tries to land a hit of invasion.

 

[Demonspeed]

The more powerful the Magic, the more effective the technique. It's not irrelevant. All ST-tier weapons boost their powers so Herritt should increase more than his range and there is the Release who might or might not be the Automatic Tracking mode. The size of his Invasion attacks shows how powerful his attacks are compared to the beginning of the manga.

Physically, Gowther is not bad but he is not that good either.

 

[kkck]

The more powerful the Magic, the more effective the technique. It's not irrelevant. All ST-tier weapons boost their powers so Herritt should increase more than his range and there is the Release who might or might not be the Automatic Tracking mode. The size of his Invasion attacks shows how powerful his attacks are compared to the beginning of the manga.

Physically, Gowther is not bad but he is not that good either.

Based on what? We have seen 3100 pl gowther affect 26k pl gallan just as he did dreyfus and in both cases there wasn't even a sacred treasure involved. Drawing out someone's full power is ultimately a generic function available to non ST weapons. Even guila and jericho have weapons capable of that. Sacred treasures are good at drawing more power but their function as ST varies from sin to sin. For meliodas it gives him more places from which to use full counter. I am not entirely clear if it results in the full countered attacks being stronger though. Since the manga's start the reference is that full counter returns attacks with more than double the strength. We have no reference so far of, say, his sacred treasure making that into "more than 4 times the power" for instance. For escanor and king the weapons work as means of suppressing or sealing their power. We still don't know what aldan, courehouse or gideon do. And we don't know if any of the abilities gowther has shown actually belongs to his sacred treasure.

What do you mean by size of his invasion attacks? When have we seen any evidence that herrit helps gowther create stronger illusions or mind effects on his target?

 

[Demonspeed]

Based on what? We have seen 3100 pl gowther affect 26k pl gallan just as he did dreyfus and in both cases there wasn't even a sacred treasure involved. Drawing out someone's full power is ultimately a generic function available to non ST weapons. Even guila and jericho have weapons capable of that. Sacred treasures are good at drawing more power but their function as ST varies from sin to sin.

Based on logic. Invasion is his Magic, if his magic powers get stronger then obviously his attacks will. He did affect Galan but it was a surprise attack to trick him, you can't compare Rewrite Light to something like Nightmare Teller. Even though he can do things like this there is a limit. High Spirit stat also seems to make targets more resistant(Merlin needed to amplify his Blackout Arrow to knock out Escanor in Edinburgh chapers). Techniques which can work on an opponent even with a massive power gap exist, some are even better than Gowther's.

Since the manga's start the reference is that full counter returns attacks with more than double the strength. We have no reference so far of, say, his sacred treasure making that into "more than 4 times the power" for instance. For escanor and king the weapons work as means of suppressing or sealing their power. We still don't know what aldan, courehouse or gideon do. And we don't know if any of the abilities gowther has shown actually belongs to his sacred treasure.

Full Counter is peculiar because it returns someone's strength but Meliodas is better with Lostvayne because the weapon is that good in the first place, Meliodas's biggest strengths are his physical abilities and swordsmanship, Full Counter makes him even harder to beat because he can reflect/nullify Magic. It is implied that Meliodas can use Lostvayne's ability for more than cloning as well the first time he used it in the manga.

Spoiler

Meliodas activates Lostvayne's ability, we see one Meliodas and one strick but Albion has five cuts which all seem to be of equal power, it coincides with the clone limit which is four. It's an usage different from the simple cloning he does for Full Counter.

Escanor and King are not limited by their STs, without them they would undeniably be less effective in combat. The simple fact that they can channel their power through top quality weapon makes a big difference in the first place. Certain attacks can't be used without their STs as well(Ground Gladius, Mother Catastrophe, Super Slash, Charge & Fire, all of King's attacks besides Status Promotion and Condense Power, AoE Blackout etc.) but even when they use basic attacks with it the power is said to be stronger. Amplifying the magic's power is a basic ability for STs.

Spoiler

What do you mean by size of his invasion attacks? When have we seen any evidence that herrit helps gowther create stronger illusions or mind effects on his target?

Herritt should help simply because that's how a ST works. By size I mean just that: size. Without his weapon, Gowther uses Invasion from his palms and fingertips. With or without it, we had never seen an Invasion attack bigger than this one from Gowther without his memories:

Spoiler

Which is from the Great War. Just recently, we saw him use his Invasion better when he invaded Diane's mind without it

Spoiler

Chapter 237 also shows him with Herritt bigger than it has ever been before. There is no way the power and thus efficiency of the Magic didn't change.

Spoiler

 

[kkck]

Based on logic. Invasion is his Magic, if his magic powers get stronger then obviously his attacks will. He did affect Galan but it was a surprise attack to trick him, you can't compare Rewrite Light to something like Nightmare Teller. Even though he can do things like this there is a limit. High Spirit stat also seems to make targets more resistant(Merlin needed to amplify his Blackout Arrow to knock out Escanor in Edinburgh chapers). Techniques which can work on an opponent even with a massive power gap exist, some are even better than Gowther's.

Full Counter is peculiar because it returns someone's strength but Meliodas is better with Lostvayne because the weapon is that good in the first place, Meliodas's biggest strengths are his physical abilities and swordsmanship, Full Counter makes him even harder to beat because he can reflect/nullify Magic. It is implied that Meliodas can use Lostvayne's ability for more than cloning as well the first time he used it in the manga.

Meliodas activates Lostvayne's ability, we see one Meliodas and one strick but Albion has five cuts which all seem to be of equal power, it coincides with the clone limit which is four. It's an usage different from the simple cloning he does for Full Counter.

Escanor and King are not limited by their STs, without them they would undeniably be less effective in combat. The simple fact that they can channel their power through top quality weapon makes a big difference in the first place. Certain attacks can't be used without their STs as well(Ground Gladius, Mother Catastrophe, Super Slash, Charge & Fire, all of King's attacks besides Status Promotion and Condense Power, AoE Blackout etc.) but even when they use basic attacks with it the power is said to be stronger. Amplifying the magic's power is a basic ability for STs.

Herritt should help simply because that's how a ST works. By size I mean just that: size. Without his weapon, Gowther uses Invasion from his palms and fingertips. With or without it, we had never seen an Invasion attack bigger than this one from Gowther without his memories:

Which is from the Great War. Just recently, we saw him use his Invasion better when he invaded Diane's mind without it

Chapter 237 also shows him with Herritt bigger than it has ever been before. There is no way the power and thus efficiency of the Magic didn't change.

Gowther attacks the mind, his attacks do not have physical or otherwise measurable effects. And sure, spirit could be relevant here but that is a distinct thing from magic or strength being a factor in how effective these attacks are.

About meliodas and lostvayne I was only referring to how effective full counter is. Even when it comes to making full counter more effective lostvayne does not yet evidence making full countered attacks stronger than, say, liz' sword.

You are mixing two separate things here. One is escanor's and king's sacred treasure and their function and another is whether people need sacred treasures to draw out their power. Escanor specifically has not used his sacred treasure to defeat estarosa or meliodas. And when it comes to it's functions everything we have been told about rhitta so far concerns helping him suppress his power. It absorbs his excess power or heat, it was suppose to help him after he beat estarosa but it wasn't enough.... When it comes to king the only reference we have is the release. Which... is not an ability. Gloxinia has the exact same thing without the release. In other words, the sacred treasure ability so far is to keep chastiefol in a small and manageable form and when he "releases" the ability it goes back to it's original form and power.

And then the bit about how effective people are at drawing out their power without weapons. Does it make a speck of sense there would be so many people around who seem to be effective without treasures? Sure, back in the day guila and jericho were able to give the sins trouble solely on account of their ST quality level weapons. But since then we have never seen this at work. Hendrickson did not use a weapon against the sins. Estarosa's use of a weapon is situational at best. Dolor, matrona and most giants do not use weapons. None of the 3 archangels we have seen used weapons at all. Either they don't need weapons to draw out their full power or they are jackasses who intentionally and without reason fight using a mere fraction of their power.

 

[Demonspeed]

Gowther attacks the mind, his attacks do not have physical or otherwise measurable effects. And sure, spirit could be relevant here but that is a distinct thing from magic or strength being a factor in how effective these attacks are.

About meliodas and lostvayne I was only referring to how effective full counter is. Even when it comes to making full counter more effective lostvayne does not yet evidence making full countered attacks stronger than, say, liz' sword.

Gowther's attacks the mind, but he attacks the mind with his Magic. So, a stronger Magic stat strengthens his ability to attack minds. Spirit seems to give a better resistance to some of his mind attacks. He said himself that his AoE Blackout would effect people with a Spirit stat of 400 or less.

There is no evidence that Full Counter is stronger when he has Lostvayne, maybe it's not. But Full Counter doesn't have power in the first place, it's a reflection ability. Anyway, it's been made clear that he is stronger with it and the special ability helps a lot. Con

You are mixing two separate things here. One is escanor's and king's sacred treasure and their function and another is whether people need sacred treasures to draw out their power. Escanor specifically has not used his sacred treasure to defeat estarosa or meliodas. And when it comes to it's functions everything we have been told about rhitta so far concerns helping him suppress his power. It absorbs his excess power or heat, it was suppose to help him after he beat estarosa but it wasn't enough.... When it comes to king the only reference we have is the release. Which... is not an ability. Gloxinia has the exact same thing without the release. In other words, the sacred treasure ability so far is to keep chastiefol in a small and manageable form and when he "releases" the ability it goes back to it's original form and power.

Escanor used Rhitta to defeat Estarossa and Meliodas, but he didn't use it for his final attack. Rhitta doesn't suppress his power, it stores the heat coming from his body. When he saw Meliodas transforming, Escanor who was without it invoked it immediately for a reason. When Escanor is wielding his weapon he doesn't become weaker or anything. Escanor didn't imbue Rhitta with Sunshine for reason even though he could have done it. I think you are paying too much attention to what they said about ST "drawing out" more power. Basically, what it means is that fighters are much better with one, and it's evident in battle. It's not like they can't use powerful attacks without them. King's Release is an ability and it still confuses me for the same reason as you. To make things clearer I asked FKS a long time ago here. His reply is just below my post. Meliodas used a different word but King's Release definitely counts as Chastiefol's ability since he used the same word as Escanor for his Charge & Fire. The origin of the STs will be the key to solve all of this, but what we know is that:

1. They got them from Bartra.
2. They allow them to use their powers at the fullest.
3. They have a special ability.

It's worth mentioning that we have never seen Winged King actually uses the word Release on a page. Nothing says that he can't use it with True Chastiefol like that.

And then the bit about how effective people are at drawing out their power without weapons. Does it make a speck of sense there would be so many people around who seem to be effective without treasures? Sure, back in the day guila and jericho were able to give the sins trouble solely on account of their ST quality level weapons. But since then we have never seen this at work. Hendrickson did not use a weapon against the sins. Estarosa's use of a weapon is situational at best. Dolor, matrona and most giants do not use weapons. None of the 3 archangels we have seen used weapons at all. Either they don't need weapons to draw out their full power or they are jackasses who intentionally and without reason fight using a mere fraction of their power.

Why not? They say many times how important STs are even after this saga and the Sins are better fighters with them. Three Sins were involved in the Great War. Meliodas had a big sword, Gowther had apparently nothing and we don't know what Merlin had but Lostvayne and Herritt do help these two. There is no reason it would not help the others. Moreover, even if the weapon is not ST tier, a weapon makes them stronger. Ban uses whips or three-section-staves for that reason. He had one in Bandit Ban, and he makes it clear here:

Spoiler

As I said above we need more explanations but we do know that Sacred Treasures are weapons of the highest quality. Even someone like Meliodas didn't have one until he met Bartra Same for Gowther and Merlin. Bartra definitely knows a lot about them since he gave weapons of that quality to lower ranking HKs. Commandments who use weapons are Zeldris, Estarossa and Galan but we don't know how good they are(worth mentioning that Galan praised Rhitta).

If the Giant Diane is better when she uses Gideon for Creation(which is shared by all Giants besides Dolor for some reason) there is no reason Matrona or the others would not be better with it. But you have to get a weapon that good in the first place.

 

[kkck]

Gowther's attacks the mind, but he attacks the mind with his Magic. So, a stronger Magic stat strengthens his ability to attack minds. Spirit seems to give a better resistance to some of his mind attacks. He said himself that his AoE Blackout would effect people with a Spirit stat of 400 or less.

There is no evidence that Full Counter is stronger when he has Lostvayne, maybe it's not. But Full Counter doesn't have power in the first place, it's a reflection ability. Anyway, it's been made clear that he is stronger with it and the special ability helps a lot. Con

Escanor used Rhitta to defeat Estarossa and Meliodas, but he didn't use it for his final attack. Rhitta doesn't suppress his power, it stores the heat coming from his body. When he saw Meliodas transforming, Escanor who was without it invoked it immediately for a reason. When Escanor is wielding his weapon he doesn't become weaker or anything. Escanor didn't imbue Rhitta with Sunshine for reason even though he could have done it. I think you are paying too much attention to what they said about ST "drawing out" more power. Basically, what it means is that fighters are much better with one, and it's evident in battle. It's not like they can't use powerful attacks without them. King's Release is an ability and it still confuses me for the same reason as you. To make things clearer I asked FKS a long time ago here. His reply is just below my post. Meliodas used a different word but King's Release definitely counts as Chastiefol's ability since he used the same word as Escanor for his Charge & Fire. The origin of the STs will be the key to solve all of this, but what we know is that:

1. They got them from Bartra.
2. They allow them to use their powers at the fullest.
3. They have a special ability.

It's worth mentioning that we have never seen Winged King actually uses the word Release on a page. Nothing says that he can't use it with True Chastiefol like that.

Why not? They say many times how important STs are even after this saga and the Sins are better fighters with them. Three Sins were involved in the Great War. Meliodas had a big sword, Gowther had apparently nothing and we don't know what Merlin had but Lostvayne and Herritt do help these two. There is no reason it would not help the others. Moreover, even if the weapon is not ST tier, a weapon makes them stronger. Ban uses whips or three-section-staves for that reason. He had one in Bandit Ban, and he makes it clear here:

As I said above we need more explanations but we do know that Sacred Treasures are weapons of the highest quality. Even someone like Meliodas didn't have one until he met Bartra Same for Gowther and Merlin. Bartra definitely knows a lot about them since he gave weapons of that quality to lower ranking HKs. Commandments who use weapons are Zeldris, Estarossa and Galan but we don't know how good they are(worth mentioning that Galan praised Rhitta).

If the Giant Diane is better when she uses Gideon for Creation(which is shared by all Giants besides Dolor for some reason) there is no reason Matrona or the others would not be better with it. But you have to get a weapon that good in the first place.

If magic was a factor in how effective invasion is then using it on people with vastly superior PL than gowther should be about as effective as any other attack used on someone that much stronger. However as far as we have seen to gowther it makes virtually no difference whether he is attacking dreyfus or galan.

Rhitta absolutely supresses escanor's power. I am not saying rhitta exclusively weakens escanor. As far a we know it does function as a normal weapon should. However it's special ability absolutely is meant to help him suppress his power. Charge and fire plays into that as well. Absorbed power is essentially power it had suppressed earlier.

As for the bold part... What are you talking about? If he is using the true spear then that is the release. At the very least the manga has never given any indication that there is yet another release. That wouldn't even make sense. The reason meliodas and king use different words is that their sacred treasures abilities are contextually different. Meliodas is literally activating an ability. King in turn is "releasing" the the true spear. The ability likely isn't "releasing" the spear but rather sealing it in the first place.

I am not saying sacred treasures aren't weapons of the highest quality. And yeah, the sins are largely better of with them than without them. However that the context now seems to suggest that is largely because the sins prefer fighting with weapons rather than it being a necessity to draw out their full power. Early in the manga the significance of sacred treasures was that it allowed people to draw out more power than they otherwise could. And we saw how big a deal that was when the sins confronted guila and jericho. In context, guila and jericho were worthless. Their power was not even half that of the sins. And yet merely on account of them having weapons while the sins were unarmed they were able to overpower them. If this is something that applied nowadays then someone even considering fighting without a weapon would be unconscionable. Can you imagine dolor, derieri and the archangels intentionally showing up to battle knowing they could at best use a small fraction of their powers because they don't have a weapon that fully draws them out? That would be idiotic. Sure, weapons help but if the person in question actually knows how to use the weapon. If people needed weapons to draw out their full power then every encounter of armed vs unarmed should invariably end up giving the advantage to the armed person. In turn what we see is that this ends up being a martial arts contest where weapons are just a tool against which unarmed combat can be just as effective. Heck, we even saw dolor confront calmadios and dolor was not even affected by the guys weapons. Unless kalmadios had well less than a third of dolor's power that makes absolute no sense.

 

[Demonspeed]

Looks like what the Gowthers did during the HW is tied to Gowther's ability itself. The fact that he needs the help of a genius wizard like Merlin supports that idea.

Merlin will probably rebuild something he lost back then and he will get stronger.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Looks like what the Gowthers did during the HW is tied to Gowther's ability itself. The fact that he needs the help of a genius wizard like Merlin supports that idea.

Merlin will probably rebuild something he lost back then and he will get stronger.

Could explain why Gowther was out cold for 3,000 years. Wonder what papa Gowther Sr wanted Gowther to do that he couldn't by himself?