You specifically made out like Nen is something distinct from the user which is absurd. I'm certain I can quote you multiple times stating that Hisoka and Pitou's Nen has nothing to do with them.
How is it absurd that nen can exist seperate from the user when this is exactly what happened in pitou's case?
You cannot tell me that a nen ability cannot exist seperate from its source when we got nen abilities which endure the user's death.
I said distinct, not separate? they're different words, you need to look at the entire sentence and context rather than just 1 word and conjure meanings that weren't implied.
You specifically made out like Nen is something distinct from the user which is absurd. I'm certain I can quote you multiple times stating that Hisoka and Pitou's Nen has nothing to do with them.
You're even needing to twist my words just to make a coherent retort, building Straw-man argument in other words. Quote where I said that they can't exist separately? Either I didn't say that (which I didn't), or you grossly misunderstood what was said. It's like you just looked at the word "separate" and didn't look at context which is exactly what you've done in the manga and makes your interpretation a gross misinterpretation of what transpires, and more so when you ignore anything that contradicts your stance.
No one disputed its existence or its ability to remain when the user died, but the fact that it belongs to the user and the fact that it makes them stronger should they return from the dead.
Not sure why you have to be so fallacious over something so simple.
Again, it's a double-standard that you discredit Nen belonging to a user just because they died, but you can acknowledge that a dead person can give off killing intent and acknowledge it as the user's? somewhat hypocritical.
This is even more apparent because you stated that Machi was weaker than Morel despite no statement of it, but you require that the Manga states that it is "Hisoka's Nen" to acknowledge that he got stronger? You're simply changing standards to fit your argument, there's no coherency; one minute, strong implications are substantial evidence, but when it is against your stance, it's not. A profound lack of objectivity, holes and flaw in your argument.
I said distinct, not separate? they're different words, you need to look at the entire sentence and context rather than just 1 word and conjure meanings that weren't implied.
It is sometimes very hard to follow the things you say because you do not answer to points or answer to complete different things than the things you quote.
Before i answer to the complete post now....What do you mean then by 'distinct' here?
If you say nen can exist seperate from the body and thus without a real conection to the user's power (after all, as i said, the power of nen when it is casted can be high (in an ability which uses limitation for example or is powered up or was nehanced by other means) while the user is weak, and vice versa, a casted ability can be almost unnoticeably weak while the user has a gigantic nenpool).
So what exactly is your point then? My point was that a casted nenability and its strength does not let you tell anything about the users strength.
Do you debate that now or not?
No one disputed its existence or its ability to remain when the user died, but the fact that it belongs to the user and the fact that it makes them stronger should they return from the dead.
How is that a fact?
If you admit that an ability that 'belongs to the user' can exist seperate from him without giving us indication of his power, then why would that change when he comes back from life?
At best, it is a guess that it is that way, but by no means a necessity.
As i said: A once casted nen ability does not change anymore depending on the user (unless it is something which relies on him continously emitting it or something).
Hisoka's bungee gum can exist without him needing to connect it to his body. And if he was to suddenly get more powerful, that would not change a thread of him seperated from his body.
It would probably change the quality of the threads he can cast after he got stronger (or weaker), but not anything he casted.
So would it be different vice versa? Why should the power of a once casted nen ability have any natural effect on the guy that casted it?
As Hisoka is the first one to come back, there is literally nothing in the manga to support this and a lot of open questions. So why are you so adamant about this being 'a fact'?
I would agree if we had seen something like a conjurer's casted ability getting stronger just because the user trained (so for example seeing the old seals of the elder he casted in his youth getting stronger or weaker when he is old), but the manga says nothing on that and it would kinda of errase the point of difference between conjurers and transmuters/emitters since the point of conjuration is that the things are seperated.
So, i do not see what it should mean that an ability 'belongs to the user' in regard to that.
Nengetting stronger, in my opinion, is the same as asking alluka to make something stronger, for example kortopis buildings.
If chrollo asked alluka (when kortopi was still alive) to make one of kortopis buildings permanent, then that would still not have an effect on kortopis ability itself (or do you think that?)
So why would nengettingstronger, which always explicitly is about a certain casted ability and not the abilities of a user per se, be different here?
It is sometimes very hard to follow the things you say because you do not answer to points or answer to complete different things than the things you quote.
Before i answer to the complete post now....What do you mean then by 'distinct' here?
If you say nen can exist seperate from the body and thus without a real conection to the user's power (after all, as i said, the power of nen when it is casted can be high (in an ability which uses limitation for example or is powered up or was nehanced by other means) while the user is weak, and vice versa, a casted ability can be almost unnoticeably weak while the user has a gigantic nenpool).
So what exactly is your point then? My point was that a casted nenability and its strength does not let you tell anything about the users strength.
Do you debate that now or not?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
How is that a fact?
If you admit that an ability that 'belongs to the user' can exist seperate from him without giving us indication of his power, then why would that change when he comes back from life?
At best, it is a guess that it is that way, but by no means a necessity.
As i said: A once casted nen ability does not change anymore depending on the user (unless it is something which relies on him continously emitting it or something).
Hisoka's bungee gum can exist without him needing to connect it to his body. And if he was to suddenly get more powerful, that would not change a thread of him seperated from his body.
It would probably change the quality of the threads he can cast after he got stronger (or weaker), but not anything he casted.
So would it be different vice versa? Why should the power of a once casted nen ability have any natural effect on the guy that casted it?
As Hisoka is the first one to come back, there is literally nothing in the manga to support this and a lot of open questions. So why are you so adamant about this being 'a fact'?
I would agree if we had seen something like a conjurer's casted ability getting stronger just because the user trained (so for example seeing the old seals of the elder he casted in his youth getting stronger or weaker when he is old), but the manga says nothing on that and it would kinda of errase the point of difference between conjurers and transmuters/emitters since the point of conjuration is that the things are seperated.
So, i do not see what it should mean that an ability 'belongs to the user' in regard to that.
Nengetting stronger, in my opinion, is the same as asking alluka to make something stronger, for example kortopis buildings.
If chrollo asked alluka (when kortopi was still alive) to make one of kortopis buildings permanent, then that would still not have an effect on kortopis ability itself (or do you think that?)
So why would nengettingstronger, which always explicitly is about a certain casted ability and not the abilities of a user per se, be different here?
Again, you clearly didn't understand what was said at all, or, perhaps, your intention is to deviate from topic to respond to strawman arguments that were never brought up in the first place.
I never said Nen cannot exist even if the user dies - that's your misinterpretation of what was stated which you've built your entire post around (it was unnecessary as that point was never debated to begin with).
I said you act like Nen is in other words... is totally unrelated to the user (using the word "distinct").
Your enigma here is you can't comprehend that there are multiple ways a fighter can get stronger:
The user's physical abilities could be naturally enhanced without Nen improving.
Nen can improve without physical abilities being elevated.
Both can be strengthened.
Either way, all equate into a stronger individual.
In summary, what I'm telling you is I don't really care about your pre-suppositions, the Manga gets priority over your opinions.
It states that Hisoka and Pitou got stronger Nens after death.
So, it;s either you accept what the Manga states, or remain in denial.
Also, for you to state that Nen is unrelated to the user because their dead is absurd, yet you're happy to believe that "killing intent" is from the user despite being dead? then why can't Nen be? your conclusions are both conflicted and contradictory.
You'd happyily accept Hisoka got stronger if he trained his Nen, but what difference is there if he just died and it resulted in stronger Nen as opposed to dying? In the end, it still means he got stronger.
Your entire argument is semantic and inconsistent.
Nen responds and behaves according to the emotions and intentions of the user.
Again, you clearly didn't understand what was said at all, or, perhaps, your intention is to deviate from topic to respond to strawman arguments that were never brought up in the first place.
I never said Nen cannot exist even if the user dies - that's your misinterpretation of what was stated which you've built your entire post around (it was unnecessary as that point was never debated to begin with).
I said you act like Nen is in other words... is totally unrelated to the user (using the word "distinct").
Your enigma here is you can't comprehend that there are multiple ways a fighter can get stronger:
The user's physical abilities could be naturally enhanced without Nen improving.
Nen can improve without physical abilities being elevated.
Both can be strengthened.
Either way, all equate into a stronger individual.
In summary, what I'm telling you is I don't really care about your pre-suppositions, the Manga gets priority over your opinions.
It states that Hisoka and Pitou got stronger Nens after death.
So, it;s either you accept what the Manga states, or remain in denial.
It would be nice if you wouldnt assume that i am defending HxH just for the heck of it lol.
There is no reason for me to do that. I am the first one to drop a manga even if i like it a lot when something like plot inconsisties happen or generally things i just cannot accept. But this is no such case.
There is no reason for me to strawman anything. I genuinely do not understand what you try to express sometimes.
I do comprehend how people in HxH can get stronger (while stronger here is meant as in more strength and nen capacity).
But i also know that you can become a better fighter in HxH without getting stronger in terms of stronger nen or muscle power.
And once again: No. No the manga did not state pitou or hisoka got stronger. With no syllable did the manga say that.
You show me pages and pages of things i don't debate: Namely, that their casted nenabilities got stronger after death.
I already established that our mean disagreement is about whether that means that the user got stronger or not.
Again, for your claim that the users got stronger, you got no evidence in hisoka's case, and it is flat out wrong in pitous case.
There is nothing in the manga saying that happens, the manga was always pretty explicit in saying that the nen that stayed behind got stronger (namely the casted ability which was left over).
You keep saying the manga would state other things, but it does not. You can give me no page of 'hisoka got stronger' or 'pitou got stronger' (and it would be nice if you would not keep posting big pages which i subsequently have to put into spoiler tags because it is always the same picture anyway).
I am absolutely willing to concede all my points if there would be another translation or a new chapter saying that hisoka got stronger, but in the translation we have here, there is no reason to believe that. Or at least not be so sure of that
It is nothing we know for a fact and i find it very doubtful for the reasons i stated
Also, for you to state that Nen is unrelated to the user because their dead is absurd, yet you're happy to believe that "killing intent" is from the user despite being dead? then why can't Nen be? your conclusions are both conflicted and contradictory.
You'd happyily accept Hisoka got stronger if he trained his Nen, but what difference is there if he just died and it resulted in stronger Nen as opposed to dying? In the end, it still means he got stronger.
Your entire argument is semantic and inconsistent.
Nen responds and behaves according to the emotions and intentions of the user.
It is not absurd. It just means that a strong casted nen ability does not let you do conclusions about the strength of the user.
And this is what you do: You think Hisoka got stronger because the bungee gum threads got stronger which he casted before.
But those woulda got stronger anyway if hisoka stayed dead or not. So their power did not in any way depend on hisoka.
That their strenghtening correlates with hisoka's nenability per se is your guess, but definitely not something the manga stated.
I do comprehend how people in HxH can get stronger (while stronger here is meant as in more strength and nen capacity).
But i also know that you can become a better fighter in HxH without getting stronger in terms of stronger nen or muscle power.
HIs nen hasnt and the manga never said that. Period. It said that a casted nen ability of his might have got stronger for all machi cares. And that's it.
It tells you nothing about HIsoka's nen nodes, which are dependend on his body.
I am not feigning ignorance. Vice versa, my knowledge allows me to judge the source material.
HIs nen did not get stronger, or at least the manga never said it.
HIs casted nen ability might have got stronger, which does not let you conclude that he did.
The thing is: Gon's jajanken cannot get stronger unless gon does. Only a casted ability, NOT THE ABILITY PER SE, can get stronger by the means of nen staying behind (at least if you dont hax it with chrollo's book).
There is always the prerequisite of the ability already being casted.
HIs nen hasnt and the manga never said that. Period. It said that a casted nen ability of his might have got stronger for all machi cares. And that's it.
It tells you nothing about HIsoka's nen nodes, which are dependend on his body.
I'm curious as to what Hisoka is going to do with his Nen, now that he knows he can set conditions to it that stretch beyond the boundaries of death. I still haven't come to terms with how the fight went because there are about a thousand ways it could have improved, and I probably never will. Hisoka's 80% affinity with conjuration is the worst part. But...
It's clear, after some digesting, that the fight was used as a setup mechanic to progress both Hisoka and Chrollo in terms of capability. Togashi has brought Hisoka up to the point where at least two of his previous limitations are gone: he's changed the way he's thinking about fighting an opponent, as well as having new capabilities stemming from his Nen returning stronger than it was. Chrollo got stronger for that fight... I'm just not sure it'll be enough next time these two cross Nen.
So which panel says he got stronger there? I only read a panel about nen intensifying, so the thing i say all the time, not about hisoka getting stronger.
I'm curious as to what Hisoka is going to do with his Nen, now that he knows he can set conditions to it that stretch beyond the boundaries of death. I still haven't come to terms with how the fight went because there are about a thousand ways it could have improved, and I probably never will. Hisoka's 80% affinity with conjuration is the worst part. But...
It's clear, after some digesting, that the fight was used as a setup mechanic to progress both Hisoka and Chrollo in terms of capability. Togashi has brought Hisoka up to the point where at least two of his previous limitations are gone: he's changed the way he's thinking about fighting an opponent, as well as having new capabilities stemming from his Nen returning stronger than it was. Chrollo got stronger for that fight... I'm just not sure it'll be enough next time these two cross Nen.
Well i think he knew he could do it before, but it was a very big risk which he only takes when he thinks he will die anyway.
I also dont think that the new abilities he got stem from nen getting stronger.
Nen getting stronger, so far, only improved exactly one hatsu, but hisoka used both of his abilities in a new way.
I see this fight as more of a narrative set up and a showcase of chrollo's new ability.
So which panel says he got stronger there? I only read a panel about nen intensifying, so the thing i say all the time, not about hisoka getting stronger.
I am not feigning ignorance, i am telling you that 'nengettingstronger' is not the same thing as 'hisoka got stronger'.
It is not HIS NEN per se which got stronger. Machi didnt say that. She exclaimed the phrase for the only cause she knows which could be behind the nen she notices. Gon never was in the same case. Gon does not even have a conjuring ability which could stay behind.
As i said, the manga simply does not state that hisoka got stronger, nor that his general nencapacity got better.
It simply states that machi thinks that 'nengettingstronger' as a concept is behind the nen activity she notices.
And that's about it.
That is not to say that hisoka might not have got stronger. But the manga never clarified that and everything so far is easily explainable with the opposite assumption.
Also: You said it yourself: If hisoka could basically just kill himself over and over and do his trick (after all, flatlining is a thing and not THAT risky for someone like hisoka), it would be plain bad writing.
Togashi as a capable writer would know that. Why do you assume he will go that road? He does not need to because everything so far can be explained in another way. I will be the first one to say that you were right if the next manga chapter we see hisoka in says something about him being faster, stronger or simply better than before, but until then i will stick by my common sense.
I am not feigning ignorance, i am telling you that 'nengettingstronger' is not the same thing as 'hisoka got stronger'.
It is not HIS NEN per se which got stronger. Machi didnt say that. She exclaimed the phrase for the only cause she knows which could be behind the nen she notices. Gon never was in the same case. Gon does not even have a conjuring ability which could stay behind.
As i said, the manga simply does not state that hisoka got stronger, nor that his general nencapacity got better.
It simply states that machi thinks that 'nengettingstronger' as a concept is behind the nen activity she notices.
And that's about it.
I understand your idea, however the first sentence is not well phrased in your post. "Nen getting stronger after death" is a concept which in fact describes the nen resurging from the corpse and intensifying, thus getting stronger. In this case, Hisoka is alive, so there are two possibilities :
Nen got stronger after death, resurrected Hisoka, and still remained strong (meaning with the increased intensity gotten from death). Since his nen got boosted, Hisoka is also stronger.
Nen got stronger after death, resurrected Hisoka, but since the condition for the nen to be stronger (i.e. death) is not valid anymore, nen returned to its former strength level. Thus Hisoka remained the same.
At this point it's just a matter of believing what makes you feel happy. No fact from the manga is strong enough to categorically prove or disprove any of the above points (not even Hisoka's new display of abilities, that's smthg normal). So we have to wait and see.
The manga provides no evidence for HIsoka to be stronger than before.
As I said, i will be the first one to say that you were right if Hisoka is said to be stronger or faster or whatever in an upcoming chapter, but until then i find it very questionable.
I understand your idea, however the first sentence is not well phrased in your post. "Nen getting stronger after death" is a concept which in fact describes the nen resurging from the corpse and intensifying, thus getting stronger. In this case, Hisoka is alive, so there are two possibilities :
Nen got stronger after death, resurrected Hisoka, and still remained strong (meaning with the increased intensity gotten from death). Since his nen got boosted, Hisoka is also stronger.
Nen got stronger after death, resurrected Hisoka, but since the condition for the nen to be stronger (i.e. death) is not valid anymore, nen returned to its former strength level. Thus Hisoka remained the same.
At this point it's just a matter of believing what makes you feel happy. No fact from the manga is strong enough to categorically prove or disprove any of the above points (not even Hisoka's new display of abilities, that's smthg normal). So we have to wait and see.
Yeah, exactly, you formulated it well.
We do not know yet how and if it will affect Hisoka.
And I am inclined to believe that Togashi would not do something that leaves so many glaring narrative problems behind.
Except of course if we see Hisoka completely abusing it until it hits a limit lol.
I really hope you are right. Because it's a bit concerning me how he presented this resurrection and left us with more questions than answers, then to top it off, he declared in his interview that he "doesn't see anything wrong with it". That's quite alarming cuz it hints that Togashi doesn't care about precision and realism anymore, which could hurt lots of future abilities and battles. My fear is that before he knows it, he'll end up on kishimoto's shoes.
But I really hope I'm wrong, I still believe in Togashi.
I really hope you are right. Because it's a bit concerning me how he presented this resurrection and left us with more questions than answers, then to top it off, he declared in his interview that he "doesn't see anything wrong with it". That's quite alarming cuz it hints that Togashi doesn't care about precision and realism anymore, which could hurt lots of future abilities and battles. My fear is that before he knows it, he'll end up on kishimoto's shoes.
But I really hope I'm wrong, I still believe in Togashi.
Well he did stuff like that before where fans have to kinda fill out the blanks.
Kite's ressurection was one of such things (and kite's death, which we have never seen), then the whole alluka story where people questioned why killuah does not use one last wish to make the family forget about alluka (it seemed rather convenient for the author to say 'oh well and now he stops wishing') and now the Hisoka situation.
I do believe tho that in all of those cases there were good reasons to leave things out and leave some questions open. I think he has things in mind about how to develope those situations in a worthwhile way. Elseways he would not have created them.
What makes me think that is that he is a very capable author (which he really has proven by now).
Someone who can develope the whole pariston election drama without significant inconsisties could think of another reason to get hisoka to get stronger or fight the spider than this kind of twist.
He could also think of a better reason, for example ingrained into alluka's ability, for killuah not to wish that one last wish.
The fact that he still went that route tells me that he has things in mind which we do not know. For example an actual other reason besides 'not wanting to' for killuah not to wish more.
Believing Togashi threw realism out of the window for the developement we got (hisoka hunting the spiders with some new skills up his sleave due to the lost limbs) means believing Togashi had no other feasible way of getting that developement, and i think too highly of him as an author to believe that.
If hisoka actually got stronger togashi would have to explainw hy hisoka does not do it nonstop by flatlining, and that is basically a question he does not have to bother with if he simply says 'hisoka did not get stronger due to that'.
I think that IF togashi says hisoka got stronger, he will only do so if he has a good reason in mind why hisoka can't do it again or won't benefit from doing it again.
As i said, I don't believe someone who can plan out and go though stuff like the election arc without a problem won't see those narrative pitfalls coming.
Togashi also said in his interview that he DOES care a lot about consistency, so he won't just sacrifice it for nothing.
Well he did stuff like that before where fans have to kinda fill out the blanks.
Kite's ressurection was one of such things (and kite's death, which we have never seen), then the whole alluka story where people questioned why killuah does not use one last wish to make the family forget about alluka (it seemed rather convenient for the author to say 'oh well and now he stops wishing') and now the Hisoka situation.
I do believe tho that in all of those cases there were good reasons to leave things out and leave some questions open. I think he has things in mind about how to develope those situations in a worthwhile way. Elseways he would not have created them.
What makes me think that is that he is a very capable author (which he really has proven by now).
Someone who can develope the whole pariston election drama without significant inconsisties could think of another reason to get hisoka to get stronger or fight the spider than this kind of twist.
He could also think of a better reason, for example ingrained into alluka's ability, for killuah not to wish that one last wish.
The fact that he still went that route tells me that he has things in mind which we do not know. For example an actual other reason besides 'not wanting to' for killuah not to wish more.
Believing Togashi threw realism out of the window for the developement we got (hisoka hunting the spiders with some new skills up his sleave due to the lost limbs) means believing Togashi had no other feasible way of getting that developement, and i think too highly of him as an author to believe that.
If hisoka actually got stronger togashi would have to explainw hy hisoka does not do it nonstop by flatlining, and that is basically a question he does not have to bother with if he simply says 'hisoka did not get stronger due to that'.
I think that IF togashi says hisoka got stronger, he will only do so if he has a good reason in mind why hisoka can't do it again or won't benefit from doing it again.
As i said, I don't believe someone who can plan out and go though stuff like the election arc without a problem won't see those narrative pitfalls coming.
Togashi also said in his interview that he DOES care a lot about consistency, so he won't just sacrifice it for nothing.
Well in the past he did leave many questions open, however everything seemed consistent, and all the possibilities we could infer actually did make sense and were not farfetched, even in the hxh universe. However here in this case of Hisoka, it's not whether he got stronger or not which is the problem, but whether he was truly dead or just "clinically" dead. To leave one of the possibilities we could think about to be something breaking his own rules is not the cleverest thing to do, and this is what alarms me.
In killua's case, he just did not chose the optimal choice, however his choice no matter how sentimental it looks is still decent and doesn't break any law.
Kaito's death is pretty clear. However Kaito's resirrection in itself doesn't make any sense.
Hisoka's resurrection is so full of holes that even when we try to think of the most plausible scenario, there are lots of assumptions to be made and most of them are farfetched. So why didn't Togashi at least hint a bit more that Hisoka's brain didn't decay, so that he could point us to the more logical outcome ? I mean he did even use a whole page to show that a human head can hit as hard as a bowling ball, so why not explain things here ? This is what I don't like.
In the end, we all like Togashi and think highly of him, but he's still a humain, like me and you. So he really needs to redeem himself in this arc.
