But pitou did not get stronger. And that is the point. Pitou is dead. Whether their ability gets stronger or not after it is casted does not let you say anything about their strength.
It's like you've not read the fight between Gon and Pitou.
Pitou was dead, his Nen acted independently, yet was still gauged to have become stronger.
Your question becomes more absurd because you're trying to relate it like it's a real-life scenario. There's no such thing as Nen in reality nor is there dead men with their hands dug into their chest miraculously coming back to life (and let's not go to the actual massaging of one's own heart).
But as i said, pitou did not get stronger. Pitou is dead, their strength is zero.
So the question is very relevant. Machi always referred to hisoka's casted nenability.
I never said that it is impossible that the casted bungee gum got stronger on his fingertips. That has nothing to do with hisoka as a nenuser tho.
So, you can believe that it implies that hisoka himself got stronger, but the manga didnt say that, and machi could not even say that because he was dead.
All she can gauge, and yes she can, is the quality of the bungee gum on his fingertips. And with 'getting stronger' she might simply mean that very small and unnoticeable threads became strong enough to CPR.
All she can gauge, and yes she can, is the quality of the bungee gum on his fingertips. And with 'getting stronger' she might simply mean that very small and unnoticeable threads became strong enough to CPR.
Because he in fact used his nen. But if he had not casted his nen ability before, then he a) would not have placed his hands the way he did and b) then it would not have been nen staying behind.
No, not same scenario. Pitou a) he an incredible bloodlust mixed in her aura and b) used en, or at least, like supergon, used aura in a way which emanated very far.
This case is only comparable with the case of gon getting his nen back when morel was arround. And morel could not gauge him with that.
Also: It is obviously much harder to see whether someone got stronger than whether someone is very strong.
To know whether hisoka got stronger, machi would have to know hisoka's complete nenpool, thus have hisoka show her his maximum power ten and THEN we would have to assume that the nengetting stronger was STRONGER than his maximum power ten before.
To know whether someone is out of your league, you just have to experience his aura to be at whatever level you deem insanely strong.
Fact still stands: Machi had no way to gauge hisoka at the point his nen activated because he was dead and only the stayed behind did something.
Whether hisoka's body now can dish out more nen than it could before is questionable at best.
You are mixing up things again. Pitou's Aura could not be measured when she was dead. Terpsichora got stronger, not her. And that was not noticed by any character, it was narrated.
It still stands that the only comparable case to hisoka reawakening from zetsu is gon, and he could not be measured by someone as experiences as morel.
You are mixing up things again. Pitou's Aura could not be measured when she was dead. Terpsichora got stronger, not her. And that was not noticed by any character, it was narrated.
No, very relevant. You try to prove me with Terpsichora that Hisoka as a nenuser got stronger just because a casted bungee gum grew stronger.
But It doesnt. Whatever happens with Terpsichora has nothing to do with whether pitou would come back stronger if she was to be revived.
Please face the fact that the only time nen stayed behind and the user was reanimated was the case with Hisoka. There is no precedent to that, and thus you know nothing about how it might affect Hisoka.
You claim that hisoka was stronger when he was dead than he ever was alive, and that is illogical.
Every single thing hisoka did after reanimating can be easily explained with things we already saw in the manga (i.e. high level nenusers tweaking their hatsus and learning new applications of their nen on the fly).
Your theory creates a lot of problems. Not only that your reasoning is really incoherent, but the very problem you complain about only exists if Hisoka as a nenuser got strong (the problem being the fact that he could do it as often as he wants to).
You basically take a very unprobable theory of yours which, quite honestly, you cannot back up with anything you tried it with, and then say that this unprobable theory is definitely true which makes the developement bad.
What i said to this matter only took things which are actually in the manga without taking them out of context, and the plot is absolutely fine with it because hisoka can not get as strong as he wants to with that method.
So go figure what Togashi will run with.
No, very relevant. You try to prove me with Terpsichora that Hisoka as a nenuser got stronger just because a casted bungee gum grew stronger.
But It doesnt. Whatever happens with Terpsichora has nothing to do with whether pitou would come back stronger if she was to be revived.
The manga did not say so and nowhere on the page which you posted the third or fourth time now says what you are saying.
If you find a passage in the manga which says 'hisoka got stronger', let me know.
The manga did not say so and nowhere on the page which you posted the third or fourth time now says what you are saying.
If you find a passage in the manga which says 'hisoka got stronger', let me know.
No, it is not irrelevant whether the manga says what you claim it does or doesn't.
And it doesn't. it simply does not say, at no point in time, that hisoka got stronger.
The manga says that machi was wondering how there could be nen arround when hisoka was dead, and she answered her question with 'oh, nen getting stronger after death'.
That is all that happened there. And that does not imply hisoka got stronger. it does not even necessarily imply that his bungee gum threads were stronger than usual, because the 'getting stronger' part is applied to a casted ability. Thus a weak bungee gum cast might get much stronger after hisoka died, but not stronger than it would usually be.
And even if you assume that the bungee gum thread machi saw was insanely strong, it still does not imply that Hisoka got stronger. And you cannot argue with that because there is no precedent to that event. Pitou did not get stronger after she died.
Nor is a casted nenability the same as your nenoutput from your body. A casted nenability can be strong for many reasons while your nenoutput might not be on par with it, or vice versa.
No, it is not irrelevant whether the manga says what you claim it does or doesn't.
And it doesn't. it simply does not say, at no point in time, that hisoka got stronger.
I can deny it because what i say is supported by actual evidence in the manga.
Also, you really have to watch that the things you say are actually on the pages you link. Hisoka did not tell his nen to get stronger.
I don't have to try to seperate a casted nenability from a user: It is a fact that they are separated.
The only way you can gauge another person's power via gauging his nenoutput is when the person is actually putting out nen. So you can judge: Alright, when someone dishes out that amount of aura, then he is roughly that strong.
What you cannot do is taking a conjured ability and thinking it tells you how strong the user is.
The user could be a total weakling who got that ability by limitation, or because he had to power it up for a very long time.
Similarly, hisoka got a pretty huge nenpool, but his bungee gum is not a very aura intensive ability. A bungee gum thread would not tell you how strong hisoka is.
Basically, you are telling me that if the meteor city elder planted a sun and moon symbol in his youth and then trained for years, the symbol would get stronger with him. Because after all, you tell me that there is no separation between the general nen capacity of a nenuser and a casted ability of them.
And that makes no real sense and is not supported by the manga.
I can deny it because what i say is supported by actual evidence in the manga.
Also, you really have to watch that the things you say are actually on the pages you link. Hisoka did not tell his nen to get stronger.
How do those two sentences even correlate?
Phinks, once again, talked about a casted nenability. And nothing else than that. Once again you choose to ignore that there is no precedent to people coming back from the dead after using nen staying behind.
He did not tell it to become stronger tho, like you claimed.
How do those two sentences even correlate?
Phinks, once again, talked about a casted nenability. And nothing else than that. Once again you choose to ignore that there is no precedent to people coming back from the dead after using nen staying behind.
But I am not lying to myself. I am taking all things the manga has said and shown into consideration and come to a conclusion.
I also never made it out like nen does not belong to the use.
I state the fact that nen can exist seperate from the user. Elseways it simply would not there after their death in any other case than hisoka's.
This is why it is a very distinctive difference whether you tell your body to go all out and open all your nen nodes with full power or whether you conjure an object or just have your usual resting stance aura.
Phinks stated that a casted nen ability can get stronger after the user dies. nothing more, nothing less.
And netero, like all other people in the manga, had to actually show his ten to people so that they could gauge him.
Something you deny machi needs in order to gauge hisoka.
Phinks stated that a casted nen ability can get stronger after the user dies. nothing more, nothing less.
And netero, like all other people in the manga, had to actually show his ten to people so that they could gauge him.
Something you deny machi needs in order to gauge hisoka.
Where did I do that? The usual nenuser has a close relationship to his nen in so far, that it does not exist without him.
He is the source of the nen. There are exceptions like with nencurses and alluka, but let's don't get into that.
However, nen can exist seperated from the nenuser when it is casted. For example, Hisoka's Bungeegum can exist apart from his body. It is simlar with the sun and moon symbols. The symbols would not get stronger just because the meteor city elder gets stronger (or weaker if he gets weaker), because that is not the nature of a conjured ability.
You have to read what I write and actually answer to the points I raise. When i say 'the manga did not say that' and you reply 'you did and you are being fallacious', then it is not even a grammatically correct reply to what i wrote and i have to seriously question whether you actually try to answer the raised points....
Furthermore: Once again, no, hisoka's casted nenability getting stronger has no causal or logical connection to him as a nensuer getting stronger.
It is simply a completely different thing.
No, it is not irrelevant, because it is an important difference. A casted nenability existing on while the user is dead si something completely different than a user letting his aura flow.
The thing is that I am following the manga quite closely, and thus i know what characters say and what the concepts behind what they say do mean.
You are trying to equate things which weren't ever alike in hxH and make no sense in the context.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
I am a little bit tired of this back and force, so let's try this:
Our main disagreement is that you claim that a casted nenability which got stronger after the user's death implies that the user got stronger.
You support that claim by saying that a user's nen can not be independend from him.
And i don't see any evidence for that, but a lot against it.
We have seen nen staying behind when the user was actually dead, like pitou's terpsichora. Here, Pitou's power was zero. She was dead. But the nen was still there, independend from her body.
Vice versa, we have seen that abilities can vanish when the nenuser gets scared. For example, Kastro could not uphold his clone agains thisoka when he was in emotional turmoil.
The point here is that nen usually is closely dependend on the user. Nen is not going to get stronger when the user is unchanged. A nenability however CAN get stronger with the user staying the same.
That can happen by limitation, for example. Then the nenoutput and capacity of the user is the same, but the ability might get more powerful.
Nenstayingbehind is another of such instances where nen can get stronger independend from the user's status.
Pitou was dead, her nen was still very strong. Even tho it was completely disconnected from her body.
And that's basically it: To get stronger after death, we saw so far that the nen acted seperated from its user every single time and did its own thing (in connection with the user's last wish, but without his control).
I have no reason to believe that it is any other way in Hisoka's case. The only thing that can get stronger is something that he has casted before he died. That is what we saw at least. The spiders were not afraid about killing kurapika before the nenchain was inside chrollo. It's not like ur nen will suddenly do awesome tricks. The only thing that might happen is that an ability you casted gets stronger after you die. Emphasis on 'ability you casted'.
If Hisoka had not casted the bungee threads on his fingertips, then he would still be dead, because he was in zetsu when the spiders examined him.
Now, you say that since he is alive now, he has to be stronger than before. I just don't see why. The only thing that could potentially get stronger was bungee gum (after all, that was the thing he casted. It's not like pitou's doctor blythe got stronger after she died), but we saw him use texture surprise in a way he didnt use it before.
So it is clear to me that his actions after the ressurection were normal to him and didnt have anything to do with getting stronger.
Even from a literary point of view: Why would togashi make him stronger and not simply say so?
He could have easily let machi think 'he got faster!' when he trapped her.
But the only thing we know is that he used nen staying behind to revive and that nen staying behind, so far, has only strenghtened single casted isolated nenabilities.
YOu are free to believe that this implies that hisoka got stronger, but without a precedent and without anything that cannot easily be explained in another way, there is really no evidence or reason to believe for that.
Where did I do that? The usual nenuser has a close relationship to his nen in so far, that it does not exist without him.
He is the source of the nen. There are exceptions like with nencurses and alluka, but let's don't get into that.
You specifically made out like Nen is something distinct from the user which is absurd. I'm certain I can quote you multiple times stating that Hisoka and Pitou's Nen has nothing to do with them.
And your precedence claim is absolutely irrelevant, Phinks already stated that Nen can get stronger after death which justifies what's seen, but you're in denial of that.
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