Discussion How OP is Ryoma?

[Fuuji Genichiro]

I like to make the joke that POT has devolved from a sports shounen to a superpower battle manga, but the alternate perspective exists that "super power" is merely an expansion of the potential within the universe as opposed to a borderline between useful and useless characters that renders the majority of character development essentially useless.

I've initially intended to make a thread about the character parallels between Goku and Ryoma, which in turn were created from the very obvious similarity between "Ultra instinct' and Teni Muhou. However the parallels between the dragon ball franchise and POT go a bit beyond that. The Issue i've always had with Teni Muhou is something i haven't always been able to adequately express beyond being cheap and unfair. But the main issue is more akin to what some people call the krillin effect, where rapid, exponential and disproportionate character development sometimes render side characters who were once useful as now totally useless in the grand scheme of things.

Now Teni Muhou is broken. But by how much. Ryoma used it to stomp Yukimura with ease who was very much far ahead of everyone else in the series. but in order to even grasp the magnitude of improvement, we have to discuss how much better Yukimura was compared to everyone else. I guess the tier list would read

SS :Ryoma
S :Yukimura
A+ :Sanada,
A :Kintaro, Fuji, Tezuka, Atobe etc etc

but though Yukimura is distinctly above sanada, who's the best of the rest at that point, in terms of raw stats, apart from his monstrous mental and Technique, his other 'stats' would have been only above average at best. I think the gap in ability exists, but the sheer gulf is probably an illusion and probably down to Yukimura's broken levels of efficiency, whereas a slightly more powerful sanada probably would be able to match him and Tezuka's insane technical ability and similar mental would at least not have a completely one sided match. It's pretty common in other sports where slight margins can bring about disproportionate scorelines. In football (soccer) for example, it's common for teams to play well if not better than the opponent, but get hits by bad luck or isn't lethal enough on the night and end up losing 4-0 at the end of it.

In other words disproportionate ability in one area making the overall difference in ability look wider than it actually is. Now ofc it's just speculation but if this is the case, then TMK doesn't have to be that OP .

Speaking from the stats structure in NPOT now, if it's say +1.5 in everything bar mental (which would be an unresolved stat since the players aren't thinking) then ofc it's pretty op, but not to the point where it's too far ahead that other characters become krillins by comparison and every decent match would be ones where TMK get's pushed. I personally don't think Ryoma is miles ahead of the other MS . He isn't the only MS that's close to the G10 in terms of raw power and ability. Yukimura and Atobe seemed to be around entry level for the g10, and Toyoma has TMK. Tezuka is already at that level.

I mean i hate Ryoma for how his character changed from being a determined genius with clever tricks and tactics to a typical shounen powerhouse, but given how much NPOT has actually done for other characters it'd be pretty lame if apart from being naturally more gifted he ALSO has a unfairly overpowered stat booster. I think as the general character progression improves, TMK will have less of a relative impact. And Ryoma in the grand scheme of things will end up as the best at some point or another (i really hope he isn't beating volk anytime soon) but the other characters seem to be keeping up enough for Ryoma to not actually be that OP imo.


Sorry for long post that doesn't make sense but haven't been very active in years. But what do you guys think (use title as reference to discussion)

 

[Kaoz]

Well, for starters I think it's worth keeping in mind the context in which TnK was introduced, as the final power-up of the series. I feel it wasn't even so much about power levels or the scoreline at that point, but rather what Yips and TnK represented conceptually. On the one hand you have fear inhibiting your abilities to the point of being unable to do anything, and on the other hand you have your mindset affecting what you're capable of in a positive way. There is a phrase in German that roughly says if you enjoy what you do, it'll go twice as well; I feel the idea here is similar. So to me TnK is more of a concept than a skill and I don't mind that it's kind of overpowered.

As for Ryoma himself, I wouldn't say he's OP. Even among the middle schoolers there's a number of characters that can keep up with him, at the very least Tezuka, Kintarou and Akutsu. And then you have all the strong high schoolers too. So overall I feel the high/top tier is much bigger in NPoT than it was in PoT.

 

[Hardy]

Probably better to move it here

I mean one thing we do know that the stats are simply what the coach estimate the number to be. I think they even consider to raise Atobe mental after seeing his performance against Irie. They could simply estimate Ryoma stats wrong. We do see Ryoma feats during his American camp to support this, so it's not completely evidence-less. Moreover, if you read Ryoma description, the coach probably didn't actually see the limit of Ryoma's stamina yet, as the game is probably already over or something.

Stamina - 4: It's amazing how long he is able to hold out despite his increased breathing. With his ability to keep composed in a drawn out full set, it's hard to believe he's only a 1st year.

Also, he did apparently exhausted out and sweat his previous opponents in National final as there's a clear sweat and even cloud-like puff around the characters. Those aren't nameless and there's a lot of them. After which he proceed to play a full 1 set match with Yukimura.

Also, I don't believe that American MS are bunch of no name as you believe. The chapter outright stated that they are either a tournament champion or runner up. I guess the only way we'll find out is if the story continue after this world cup and we see American MS get full match against other world countries MS.

I guess the best way to see Ryoma current level is to see how he match against Ryoga. If he without any upgrade can take any games from Ryoga, that means he and by extension Fuji is probably G5 level already. This probably also means Sanada/Ninja dude/Prince is stronger than we expected.

That comment is from his match vs Ochi/Mouri after he got better mid match and survived the mental assassination.

Not sure we should use the coaches as unreliable narrators, there's no indication for that. By the 10.5 fanbook, they've tracked data of the players for 19~ days (and we know they've updated them since the stats in day 7 and day 19 are different).

The comments are clearly scaled based on age and ranking, following the coaches expectations. For example:

Spoiler

Byoudouin has a 5 in Speed and yet his profile reads:

Speed - ?: At any rate, his leg strength is not up to standard. With that speed, it is unknown how he can keep up with the rest of the 1st string.

(Granted, honestly, I theorise he was a 4~ up until he died vs Volk.)

Date's 4 reads:

Speed – 4: Since he is the type to concentrate on raising his power, his speed is only average. Maybe some sprinting exercises are in order?

Meanwhile, Tooyama's 4 as a 1st year reads:

Speed - 4: With incredible agility, he is like a nimble monkey with his movements. He has the running ability to chase down motorcycles and buses.

And Ryoma's:

Speed - 4: He is able to create speed from his spring like body. His national level speed is a point of pride that he uses to battle on equal footing with others.

At the end of the day those no names really are... no names, though. Would you be surprised if Sakata had won a singles tournament in his prefecture? His team did win the Touhoku region and he's St. Icarus' captain and ace. Does that make him an impressive feat for Ryoma to beat? How strong are these guys Ryoma defeated? As strong as Fuwa? Akiba? Or just a Takei?

Kirihara IN KANTO defeated 8 (or 9?) Rikkai high schoolers in a row, David wrecked like 50 Hyotei non regs... these shounen feats are greatly exaggerated, I don't think we should try to approach them logically.

REGARDLESS, benefit of the doubt here, how high do you think Ryoma's stamina should be? It's something that has bugged everyone since... forever, you're certainly not alone. For example, Muga's big drawback is that it drains stamina and yet Ryoma outlasted Atobe in the Nationals. Or, like you said, he beat all his past rivals and then went ahead and played Yukimura and did better than Kintarou.

I've been thinking that maybe Muga does drain your Stamina faster, but makes your "tank" bigger? (and TnK further improves this increase). Auras usually aren't added to your stats (the only exception we ever found was Tachibana "absorbing" Beast's power) so it tracks with Ryoma having "only" a 4.

I agree on the G5 logic (especially since Ryoga seemingly walked over Kiritani, too) but what's the ninja logic? Not being pedantic, I want to understand, I actually think he's underrated in this forum.

 

[-Ken-]

If I have to estimate, those champion and runner up are probably around.... 3rd court to 5th court? I don't think they are HS 1st stringer level.

On the ninja dude, didn't he apparently beat the Prince? That's pretty much the only reason I put him up there.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

How OP is Ryoma Currently?

Hmmm. Interesting. I will not say he is OP right now to be honest. I can name 10 Players I will say are better than Ryoma right now: (before he play against Ryoga)

Ryoga, Medanore, Volk, Byodoin, Ralph, Amadeus, Tokugawa, Oni, Ultimate Aura QP, Tatsuta (he is as strong as Amadeus)

Heck, it was even implied he always lose to Kiko. And We are not even sure Kiko is USA's Second Best Player since Alan is the Vice Captain, and played against Peter.

Hot Take:

Right now, I think Ryoma is same tier as:

Zeus, Bismarck, Romeo, Tanegashima, Duke, Tezuka, Peter.

 

[Hardy]

How OP is Ryoma Currently?

Hmmm. Interesting. I will not say he is OP right now to be honest. I can name 10 Players I will say are better than Ryoma right now: (before he play against Ryoga)

Ryoga, Medanore, Volk, Byodoin, Ralph, Amadeus, Tokugawa, Oni, Ultimate Aura QP, Tatsuta (he is as strong as Amadeus)

Heck, it was even implied he always lose to Kiko. And We are not even sure Kiko is USA's Second Best Player since Alan is the Vice Captain, and played against Peter.

Hot Take:

Right now, I think Ryoma is same tier as:

Zeus, Bismarck, Romeo, Tanegashima, Duke, Tezuka, Peter.

That tier is basically "good Pro level" so it's certainly not the worst company. Akutsu (and now Atobe) should be there, too.

I still insist Akaya is too op, as well.

What's funny is that if current Ryoma is there then Fuji should also be there (tho, Ryoma not using Samurai against him is suspect......) which means Fuji>Yuki for as long as he doesn't get yipped (based on Yukimura watching Tokugawa vs Duke).

 

[mathematicianrcg]

That tier is basically "good Pro level" so it's certainly not the worst company. Akutsu (and now Atobe) should be there, too.

I still insist Akaya is too op, as well.

What's funny is that if current Ryoma is there then Fuji should also be there (tho, Ryoma not using Samurai against him is suspect......) which means Fuji>Yuki for as long as he doesn't get yipped (based on Yukimura watching Tokugawa vs Duke).

I mean Duke literally said Fuji will surpassed them. And Byodoin kinda semi agrees back then.

No one said something like that on Yukimura.

I feel bad for Yuki. He was the Big Boss back in POT.

But I think Yukimura can Beat Fuji just because of matchups. Fuji doesnt have any counter to Yips/Dream. Fuji doesnt have TNK or Insight.

I think the more fun matchup is

Fuji vs Sanada (with controlled 3 bend slash and Black Aura)

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 22, 2023, Original Post Date: Aug 22, 2023 ---

That tier is basically "good Pro level" so it's certainly not the worst company. Akutsu (and now Atobe) should be there, too.

I mean the only players in "Exceptional Tier" are probably Ryoga, Volk, Medanore, and Byodoin. I think they all can beat #1 pro player in the world in a match.

And yes currently, and without plot armor. I think Ryoma will be demolished by these 4 CURRENTLY.

And I think Players like Ralph and Amadeus and UA QP barely edge him.

But below that, I think he has a good chance.

Ryoma VS Zeus or Ryoma VS Bismarck will be an even match imo.

 

[Shogun Ryoma]

aww old thread
seeing inactive accounts makes me sad..

 

[Airarin153]

I like to make the joke that POT has devolved from a sports shounen to a superpower battle manga, but the alternate perspective exists that "super power" is merely an expansion of the potential within the universe as opposed to a borderline between useful and useless characters that renders the majority of character development essentially useless.

I've initially intended to make a thread about the character parallels between Goku and Ryoma, which in turn were created from the very obvious similarity between "Ultra instinct' and Teni Muhou. However the parallels between the dragon ball franchise and POT go a bit beyond that. The Issue i've always had with Teni Muhou is something i haven't always been able to adequately express beyond being cheap and unfair. But the main issue is more akin to what some people call the krillin effect, where rapid, exponential and disproportionate character development sometimes render side characters who were once useful as now totally useless in the grand scheme of things.

Now Teni Muhou is broken. But by how much. Ryoma used it to stomp Yukimura with ease who was very much far ahead of everyone else in the series. but in order to even grasp the magnitude of improvement, we have to discuss how much better Yukimura was compared to everyone else. I guess the tier list would read

SS :Ryoma
S :Yukimura
A+ :Sanada,
A :Kintaro, Fuji, Tezuka, Atobe etc etc

but though Yukimura is distinctly above sanada, who's the best of the rest at that point, in terms of raw stats, apart from his monstrous mental and Technique, his other 'stats' would have been only above average at best. I think the gap in ability exists, but the sheer gulf is probably an illusion and probably down to Yukimura's broken levels of efficiency, whereas a slightly more powerful sanada probably would be able to match him and Tezuka's insane technical ability and similar mental would at least not have a completely one sided match. It's pretty common in other sports where slight margins can bring about disproportionate scorelines. In football (soccer) for example, it's common for teams to play well if not better than the opponent, but get hits by bad luck or isn't lethal enough on the night and end up losing 4-0 at the end of it.

In other words disproportionate ability in one area making the overall difference in ability look wider than it actually is. Now ofc it's just speculation but if this is the case, then TMK doesn't have to be that OP .

Speaking from the stats structure in NPOT now, if it's say +1.5 in everything bar mental (which would be an unresolved stat since the players aren't thinking) then ofc it's pretty op, but not to the point where it's too far ahead that other characters become krillins by comparison and every decent match would be ones where TMK get's pushed. I personally don't think Ryoma is miles ahead of the other MS . He isn't the only MS that's close to the G10 in terms of raw power and ability. Yukimura and Atobe seemed to be around entry level for the g10, and Toyoma has TMK. Tezuka is already at that level.

I mean i hate Ryoma for how his character changed from being a determined genius with clever tricks and tactics to a typical shounen powerhouse, but given how much NPOT has actually done for other characters it'd be pretty lame if apart from being naturally more gifted he ALSO has a unfairly overpowered stat booster. I think as the general character progression improves, TMK will have less of a relative impact. And Ryoma in the grand scheme of things will end up as the best at some point or another (i really hope he isn't beating volk anytime soon) but the other characters seem to be keeping up enough for Ryoma to not actually be that OP imo.


Sorry for long post that doesn't make sense but haven't been very active in years. But what do you guys think (use title as reference to discussion)

Beating Volk? It is Impossible for him right now OMG . Event The Supreme Mschooler Tezuka is lose against Volk ( Pre-Match vs Yukimura).
He still had many stroger opponents to beat right now like Tezuka, Tanegawa, Byodoin, and Ryoga.

But in the recent chapter when Atobe peeakig the future of 3 years he still said that he cannot see the end of Ryoma potential just like the present Atobe, he still cannot see it with his upgraded insight. Thats why he ask Future Ryoma about it and that Ryoma simply answer won't you win today?. It is actually a HUGE hint that event after 3 years passed he still cannot Measure Ryoma potential with his insight. It means his Ryoma Potential is not meeting the end of it even after 3 years pass, but instead it expanded larger.

From here we can view it as at the very minimum that Ryoma will started to become a famous OP Ryoma for about 3 years from now. At least 2 - 3 years from today timeline, he will become The Supreme Ryoma whose become everyone's goal and target like Tezuka for Future Mschooler. Why did I say 2 - 3 years not 1 year? Because Tezuka presences is still strong in Todays generation, He is a legend that everyone wants to surpass.
Then, Ryoma who is belong to the new generation is the next target of the new generation. It is a given not because he is MC but because he is Strong enough to remain at the top.
What amazed me about Ryoma, he really did never lose in an official match but surprisingly lose a lot in unofficial match. It his lose is like a ticket for lving up lol, it is to help him overcome his weakness. He might become a legend like Tezuka who never lose in a match too.

So, in my conclusion Ryoma will eventually catch up, after minimum 2 - 3 years he will become OP and catching up with world level. At the next U -17 world cup, it will be his 2nd time participation of U-17, Texuka will be there too for his last Tournament. I think the author makes the world cup 3 years not 2 years as it supposed to be is because Ryoma is at his peak of his youth after 3 years? Maybe, he will be one of the strogest at that time or maybe the strogest among his peers?.
Volk won't be there cause he is already 17 yo this year. By that time Volk might already joining higher world cup tourney. I bet there is more stroger Tennis player than Volk in the Higher level world. Rember, Volk is only the strogest among 17 years old Tennis Player.
I do really curious as to how OP Ryoma will be, because from the scene that Atobe peek, his aura seems more stronger and his eyes is full of confidence and certainty of his skills.

Really, reading this with Huge Mchooler and Hshcooler sometimes makes me forget that they are still teenagers .

 

[mathematicianrcg]

How OP is Ryoma?

Singles - Tier 3-2 ish.

Doubles - Terrible. As in terrible. Lol.

It is noteworthy that Ryoma is bad in doubles. But Ryoga isn't. When they are both Nanjiro's child.

 

[Ganonslayer101]

How OP is Ryoma?

Singles - Tier 3-2 ish.

Doubles - Terrible. As in terrible. Lol.

It is noteworthy that Ryoma is bad in doubles. But Ryoga isn't. When they are both Nanjiro's child.

Didn't Ryoma overcome his weakness in doubles? He played with the other guy vs TUBE and was scheduled to partner with Ryoga
He probably isn't a doubles specialist but he's probably figured out how to cooperate

 

[Airarin153]

Didn't Ryoma overcome his weakness in doubles? He played with the other guy vs TUBE and was scheduled to partner with Ryoga
He probably isn't a doubles specialist but he's probably figured out how to cooperate

I think he still somehow know how to play it properly now. Maybe not master but he still can played D. But Still he Hates it to play D lmao

 

[Hardy]

Didn't Ryoma overcome his weakness in doubles? He played with the other guy vs TUBE and was scheduled to partner with Ryoga
He probably isn't a doubles specialist but he's probably figured out how to cooperate

Nah, we don't know if he got any better, he was just that much better than everyone else in that match. I imagine he could had probably won against the 2 Tube randoms pretty much on his own, but was stalling so that the other reps could show up.