Character How strong is Atobe ... really?

[fdsjkl]

Atobe seems like Tezuka's rival -- and Tezuka has acknowledged so, e.g. , when boarding the bus from the U17 camp.

Atobe has also had the most growth at the camp. So why is it that he is ranked below Sanada and esp. Fuji?


Personally, I find Atobe very refreshing. In the world of geniuses and implausible techniques, his determination and insight stands out. Plus, he's got swagger and cockiness without seeming like a jerk, e.g, Ryoma.

What are your thoughts? Where does Atobe stand on the tier list of MSers? Should we expect more growth from Atobe going forward?

 

[mystictapion]

I explained my theories on other topics, so:

Atobe >= Sanada (without BA)
Atobe < Sanada (with BA, I'm not so sure because Black Aura wasn't showed on fully potential)

 

[fdsjkl]

Interesting take. Feel free to provide more details -- I am genuinely interested.


The way I see it is that Atobe and Tezuka have this long-term rivalry (Tezuka has acknowledged this). Ergo, Atobe should end up near Tezuka's skill level when he is pushed to the brink. Its really hard to compare Atobe and Sanada and Fuji etc. without really having a full reveal of their techniques, so that's why I base it off Tezuka's judgment.

Tezuka doesn't really hold rivalries. But I'm sure if you pressed him for an answer he would say Atobe.

 

[Fayte]

Both Yukimura and Sanada are also rivals of Tezuka. Being a rival does not mean they are equal. In PoT1, Sanada was always better than Tezuka. Sanada would have beat Tezuka in the Kantou tournament, and was also better than Atobe then. Flash forward to the National finals, Sanada is still better than Tezuka and Atobe. You're wondering why Atobe is below Sanada? Atobe was ALWAYS below Sanada. Atobe has no way of returning Rai, case closed. If Nationals Tezuka (which is arguably better than current Atobe) could do nothing to return Rai, what makes you think Atobe can? Yukimura was the only one able to return it, and even THAT was a plot hole because Rai's movement is supposed to be random and unpredictable.

Tezuka > Atobe
Sanada > Atobe

 

[fdsjkl]

Good points. I'm talking at a very high level that Atobe seems to be Tezuka's true rival -- even if Sanada was better than both of them.

To provide an analogy. In pokemon you start as blue (Tezuka) and your rival is red (Atobe). Now there are a lot of people better than both of you at the start, as you say. Such as Brock (Sanada) or the Elite 4 (Yuki).
.
But as the game progresses we see that your rival red (Atobe) has grown along with you and toppled everyone else in that universe.

So I guess that I feel Sanada, Yuki...they serve as fodder. Atobe -- like Tezuka -- will eventually 'join him' in the pros as he said during the U17. I feel that Atobe, more than anyone other outside player, is a pseudo member of the Seigaku club and therefore will experience the same powerups that befit the Seigaku team.

Since we are talking about minutiae...recall that Tezuka was Singles 2 and Atobe was Singles 1 for court 5. Meaningless, I know, but still food for thought.

And for what its worth, I would say:
Atobe > Fuji
Tezuka > Atobe
Atobe = Sanada (too close...they have to play each other)

 

[Ninomiya]

I didnt know we had ranked Atobe below Fuji on here... We agree that Atobe would defeat Fuji.
If your referring to Fayte's fanfic where they drew, its coz it was for great storyline purposes.

---------- Post added at 10:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 AM ----------

Good points. I'm talking at a very high level that Atobe seems to be Tezuka's true rival -- even if Sanada was better than both of them.

Baseless. Tezuka was said by Sanada to be above Sanada and Yukimura. So Tezuka began the scene being THE BEST in his age group.

So... He never really had a rival. Tezuka and Atobe don't have childhood history flashbacks like Tezuka has with Fuji, Sanada and Yukimura.
The rivalry seems to be for Fan-girl purposes maybe even more than Storyline.

To provide an analogy. In pokemon you start as blue (Tezuka) and your rival is red (Atobe). Now there are a lot of people better than both of you at the start, as you say. Such as Brock (Sanada) or the Elite 4 (Yuki).
.
But as the game progresses we see that your rival red (Atobe) has grown along with you and toppled everyone else in that universe.

This is kinda baseless.
Tezuka, began the series as... The man to beat.

Sanada says that while he and Yuki were supposed to be the best of their age group in the nation, Tezuka walked in and Sanada who is best friends with Yuki and knows him well said Tezuka was likely above him.
So he didnt really ''grow'' along with Atobe. Tezuka was the awesomeness from the start with everybody else trying to reach him.

Fuji is someone who Tezuka himself regards as a rival of his. Not to mention he has
Yukimura and Sanada who are famously the top of the MS Tennis World as his rivals.
Tezuka has a fantastic backstory of facing each of them when they were kids.

So I guess that I feel Sanada, Yuki...they serve as fodder.

Sanada and Yukimura are fodder? You HAVE to show me where it hints to this. Both Sanada and Yukimura have recieved improvement since Shin PoT and neither have been left behind.
Yukimura was THE ONLY MSer originally deemed good enough to be on the 2nd Stringer Top 20 list.
Sanada hits 5 at once and got a new Aura.

A crazy and baseless statement. Im not gonna go harsh here, but you gotta talk sense on here.
Besides Irie who walked all over your beloved Atobe, Yukimura is the ONLY 2nd Stringer who didnt have a Black Jersey Middle Schooler waiting for his match to finish.

This is because Oni, Sanada, Mifune and whoever sure as hell knew that Yukimura was gonna kick the ass of Fuwa Tetsuhito.

Atobe -- like Tezuka -- will eventually 'join him' in the pros as he said during the U17. I feel that Atobe, more than anyone other outside player, is a pseudo member of the Seigaku club and therefore will experience the same powerups that befit the Seigaku team.

So... Your saying Yukimura, Sanada, Akutsu, Fuji, Shiraishi won't 'join him' in the pros?? Where's your proof?

''pseudo member''?? No bro. Atobe will get screentime and power-ups coz he has the largest fan-girl fan base of the characters and I cant remember whether or not that is including Ryoma.

Since we are talking about minutiae...recall that Tezuka was Singles 2 and Atobe was Singles 1 for court 5. Meaningless, I know, but still food for thought.

Its not food for thought even.

Krauser was in Singles 3. Im sorry, but Akutsu, Shiraishi, Kirihara, Tachibana, Chitose, Ishida. G, Kite would ALL KICK THE ASS of Krauser.

In the Nationals, Tezuka was in Singles 3. Tezuka at that point however was above Fuji.
Sanada was in Singles 3, however he was above Niou.

For Higa, Hirakoba played Doubles, yet Hirakoba could kick the ass of teammates Tanishi and Kai.

And for what its worth, I would say:
Atobe > Fuji
Tezuka > Atobe
Atobe = Sanada (too close...they have to play each other)

I see Lightning overcoming AK, but sure we should see them play.
Until then I see Sanada > Atobe. In this current arc, Atobe is dying against No.9 and No.10.
No.10 has been relaxing and Atobe has been on his back while No.9 and 10 havent broken a sweat.

I reckon he is your fav. character but chill and look at PoT again from another perspective.

 

[LetalHawk]

Atobe, currently, is above both Fuji and Shiraishi. Unless Fuji gets a major power-up right now, Atobe>Fuji.

Sanada was always above Atobe. FuuRinKaInZanRai is impossible for Atobe to return. He can't handle Rai, Nationals Tezuka couldn't and Nationals Tezuka was stronger than current Atobe. Sanada would beat easily Atobe, with or without BA. Atobe needs to get an insane power-up if he wants, at least, to get to that level. Akutsu is probably stronger than Atobe right now, we didn't see Atobe hitting 5 balls at a time since the manga started, Akutsu can probably hit more than 5 balls, probably he'd hit 10 balls. That, and the fact that he can attack from every position, are more than enough reasons to defeat Atobe. Koori No Sekai won't work on Akutsu as Akutsu's ability to move around the court makes him cover his external blind spots, but AK should still work. He'd also be able to deal with Fugue towards despair and Tannhueser (lol).

And Akutsu, who will probably face and defeat Oohmagari or face and give a close match to Oni, that's another point in his favor. Atobe, with his current level, can't fight at No.8 to No.1 level, if he's having problem against No.9 and 10, he probably won't defeat any stronger player than those. Seriously, Konomi may have run out of ideas, what power-up can you give to Atobe? Probably he can't get any better than he is right now.

He is inferior to Tezuka, Echizen, Sanada, Yukimura and Akutsu, and probably Fuji after power-up.

 

[Fayte]

Sanada says that while he and Yuki were supposed to be the best of their age group in the nation, Tezuka walked in and Sanada who is best friends with Yuki and knows him well said Tezuka was likely above him.
So he didnt really ''grow'' along with Atobe. Tezuka was the awesomeness from the start with everybody else trying to reach him.

To clarify what this means:

Both Sanada and Yukimura view Tezuka by who he was BEFORE the start of PoT1, when he regularly used PoHW. However, that was sealed the ENTIRE Kantou tournament because of Tezuka's elbow injury the previous year. When Sanada says Tezuka was probably above him, he was NOT referring to the Tezuka of the Kantou tournament, but the Tezuka that beat him years before. Sanada would have raped the Kantou Tezuka that played Atobe. The only thing Tezuka had was T-Zone and Zero-shiki before the Nationals. It wasn't until Tezuka entered the National tournament that he reverted back to his "true abilities," like Sanada said during Tezuka's match with Kite.

 

[LetalHawk]

To clarify what this means:

Both Sanada and Yukimura view Tezuka by who he was BEFORE the start of PoT1, when he regularly used PoHW. However, that was sealed the ENTIRE Kantou tournament because of Tezuka's elbow injury the previous year. When Sanada says Tezuka was probably above him, he was NOT referring to the Tezuka of the Kantou tournament, but the Tezuka that beat him years before. Sanada would have raped the Kantou Tezuka that played Atobe. The only thing Tezuka had was T-Zone and Zero-shiki before the Nationals. It wasn't until Tezuka entered the National tournament that he reverted back to his "true abilities," like Sanada said during Tezuka's match with Kite.

Sanada was trolling everybody during the entire Kantou tournament and in the National tournament until the National finals. If he used Rai against Echizen, then Echizen would have lost badly. In fact, he should have shown it, Konomi should have shown Sanada using it after Echizen's comeback, then to make Echizen evolve further.

 

[fdsjkl]

Good points guys. I think you've reached a consensus. Again, I like Atobe, but we have to be objective.

For some reason when watching the anime, reading the manga, etc. it seems that Atobe is Tezuka's rival. It kind of sucks for Atobe -- you can argue he has not been pushed. Some of his notable matches include a crippled Tezuka and a sandbagging Irie, so its hard to flesh out his true potential.

I think the PoT world is in flux. You have kawamura, oishi, and momo who are suddenly in slots 11-20...and Irie sandbagging it at 20. I wish the battles were very linear, so we could really so who are the best.

Finally, I said that Sanada and Yuki were 'fodder'. What I really meant is that they are 'relative fodder' based solely on the fact that we've been with Atobe longer. Heck, crippled or not, Atobe/Hyotei was Tezuka's first actual challenge. Sanada and Yuki are introduced only later and they come from different regions. Its possible that if the show would write out Yuki or Sanada before phasing out Atobe.

And yes. I am biased. I said it before. In the world of geniuses pulling out implausible techniques, Atobe's techniques are realistic and I think the author has fleshed out his character better than say Fuji or Sanada.

 

[Brandnewkid]

Atobe is probably as strong as Sanada. I'd even go so far as to say he's even stronger, just because he can tough it out longer than Sanada.

 

[-Ken-]

Sanada was trolling everybody during the entire Kantou tournament and in the National tournament until the National finals. If he used Rai against Echizen, then Echizen would have lost badly. In fact, he should have shown it, Konomi should have shown Sanada using it after Echizen's comeback, then to make Echizen evolve further.

He did. Muga only copy tech user seen. And we saw Echizen using a part of Rai during his match with Yukimura. Rai is sealed before match with Tezuka and Echizen wasn't there during the epic match. Go figure.

 

[Brandnewkid]

He did. Muga only copy tech user seen. And we saw Echizen using a part of Rai during his match with Yukimura. Rai is sealed before match with Tezuka and Echizen wasn't there during the epic match. Go figure.

Right. Sanada helped Ryoma regain his memory and in that off-screen match it is suggested that Sanada revealed the Rai move. Yukimura even says "You showed him that?" after he uses it against him.

 

[fdsjkl]

Atobe is probably as strong as Sanada. I'd even go so far as to say he's even stronger, just because he can tough it out longer than Sanada.

Right. Also to illustrate that Atobe and Sanada are comparable -- that they should be in the same conversation -- consider that Atobe and Sanada formed the doubles pair.

And here's a quote from the wiki:

Sometime before Seigaku's National Quarterfinal match against Hyoutei, Sanada had a match with Atobe, who traveled to Rikkai to challenge him. Sanada was in the process of crushing Atobe, until Atobe finally perfects his new move- World of Ice (later first shown in the Singles 1 match against Ryoma). Both Sanada and the onlookers were shocked, but Sanada wanted to continue to play though he did not know what knew trick Atobe developed. Yukimura, however, witnessing the match, steps in and ends it, telling Sanada that if it had continued, then Sanada would have lost.

So no, Sanada has not always been better than Atobe.

 

[Fayte]

Sometime before Seigaku's National Quarterfinal match against Hyoutei, Sanada had a match with Atobe, who traveled to Rikkai to challenge him. Sanada was in the process of crushing Atobe, until Atobe finally perfects his new move- World of Ice (later first shown in the Singles 1 match against Ryoma). Both Sanada and the onlookers were shocked, but Sanada wanted to continue to play though he did not know what knew trick Atobe developed. Yukimura, however, witnessing the match, steps in and ends it, telling Sanada that if it had continued, then Sanada would have lost.

So no, Sanada has not always been better than Atobe.

And then when he played Tezuka in the finals, it was revealed that Sanada had Rai and In up his sleeve the entire time. So yes, Sanada has always been better than Atobe.

 

[Brandnewkid]

And then when he played Tezuka in the finals, it was revealed that Sanada had Rai and In up his sleeve the entire time. So yes, Sanada has always been better than Atobe.

Given Atobe's potential and his tendency for drawn-out bouts, chances are that he could've endured Rai until Sanada's knees gave out.

 

[fdsjkl]

And then when he played Tezuka in the finals, it was revealed that Sanada had Rai and In up his sleeve the entire time. So yes, Sanada has always been better than Atobe.

And yet Yuki said that Sanada would have lost. Its not specified whether that is with his other techniques or not, but we may assume that Yuki knows Sanada well enough to make that statement.

So like I've been saying Atobe = Sanada (approx.). To really answer the question they would have to play each other.

And if they did, given Atobe's history, I would see it going into a tiebreak (where anything can happen). Heck, I wonder when Atobe has actually gotten smashed in a match. He seems to always claw his way to a tiebreak.

 

[LetalHawk]

And yet Yuki said that Sanada would have lost. Its not specified whether that is with his other techniques or not, but we may assume that Yuki knows Sanada well enough to make that statement.

So like I've been saying Atobe = Sanada (approx.). To really answer the question they would have to play each other.

And if they did, given Atobe's history, I would see it going into a tiebreak (where anything can happen). Heck, I wonder when Atobe has actually gotten smashed in a match. He seems to always claw his way to a tiebreak.

Against Irie. Even if he evolved through the match, Irie never played at full strength, if that happened, it would be the first time that Atobe gets smacked in a match.

 

[fdsjkl]

Against Irie. Even if he evolved through the match, Irie never played at full strength, if that happened, it would be the first time that Atobe gets smacked in a match.

Like I said earlier. Its unfortunate that Atobe plays crippled or sandbagging characters, e.g, Tezuka and Irie. We don't get to see his true potential.

It will be interesting to see what happens when Atobe is actually overwhelmed -- the way the canon goes, maybe he evolves a new technique at that time.

Recall that Tachibana was considered better than Atobe when he was introduced. But clearly we know that's not the case. What we really need is a serious match between Sanada and Atobe. I think we can agree that would be a good match!

This discussion can go on for a while. The bottom line is that -- I think, Atobe is not done. We'll see him continue to evolve. I wouldn't be surprised if he and Tezuka end up at a comparable skill level toward the end of the series (Tezuka is clearly better right now).

 

[LetalHawk]

Unless Atobe gets an incredible technique that can compete with POP, then it'll be hard for him to reach his level.