Character How strong is Atobe ... really?

[Kaoz]

Given Atobe's potential and his tendency for drawn-out bouts, chances are that he could've endured Rai until Sanada's knees gave out.

Unless he has some way to return Rai or score points against it, I don't see how. Against Tezuka, Sanada used Rai for I believe 31 times (16 to get up to 4-0, another 15 against TPhantom iirc), and his knees weren't quite at their limit even then. If you can't do anything against Rai, it should only take 24 uses to win the match though.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Don't forget about Atobe's Insight. His Insight allows him to analyse shots and the opponent's behaviour and movements, which allows him to figure out how to return a shot and what the opponent's weakness is. If Atobe had to face Sanada, his Insight could perhaps even predict the random movement of Rai and he might even be able to return it. Also, fast shots do not work on Atobe as shown when he returned Mach. So maybe Black Aura shots but definitely Fuu would be returned by Atobe. We also know that World of Ice > FuuRinKaZan as shown when Yukimura said that Sanada would have lost if he continued (unsure about Rai and In). Atobe Kingdom beats everybody but will Atobe have a chance to use it?

Although overall I do reckon Sanada is better than Atobe, but Atobe would put up a very good and close fight.

 

[Fayte]

Unless he has some way to return Rai or score points against it, I don't see how. Against Tezuka, Sanada used Rai for I believe 31 times (16 to get up to 4-0, another 15 against TPhantom iirc), and his knees weren't quite at their limit even then. If you can't do anything against Rai, it should only take 24 uses to win the match though.

Thank you for saying this before I did. The only reason why Sanada's knees were giving out to begin with, was because of the fact he had to use it an abundance of times because of T-Phantom. Atobe has no way of returning Rai if Tezuka couldn't. People always flock to what Yukimura said after Sanada's match with Atobe to make a case for Atobe being better, and they COMPLETELY FORGET what Yukimura said during the match against Tezuka about himself being the ONLY ONE capable of beating Sanada as he is. That includes Atobe.

Spoiler

 

[Ninomiya]

I dont know how this went on so long lol.

Atobe and Tezuka? Not on the same level, Atobe 7-6 score with a freakin injured Tezuka, Hiding Doubled Return on top of that.
Tezuka >>> Atobe and they arent real eternal/equal rivals like you think. @fdsjkl

Atobe VS Sanada? Rai can only be handled in the series so far by Yukimura, Tezuka (Possible Echizen Ryoma).
Atobe WILL lose. Dont care for the scoreline, but it WILL be a confident loss for him.

Atobe's Insight may predict Rai? Cool. Tezuka was able to predict it and get the ball to him with TZ... It raped his racket.
Your Techinque MUST be at Yukimura's level at the minimum OR have Tezuka Phantom, (Which cant be used excessively so Sanada will still overcome it coz he has decent endurance).

Unfortunately, Yukimura is depicted to have amongst the best Technique in the series. And TPhantom is only used by Niou and Tezuka.
Sorry but, Atobe is a level below Tezuka, Yukimura and Sanada. Always has been. We will see if that changes.

Going by his match against Ochi, your a joker if you think Atobe is at their standard.

---------- Post added at 08:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 AM ----------

It will be interesting to see what happens when Atobe is actually overwhelmed -- the way the canon goes, maybe he evolves a new technique at that time.

Recall that Tachibana was considered better than Atobe when he was introduced. But clearly we know that's not the case. What we really need is a serious match between Sanada and Atobe. I think we can agree that would be a good match!

I would hate that match. I like Atobe. Would hate to see him get crushed. Sanada will defeat all MSers in this camp with only Yukimura and Ryoma being able to be of a challenge to him.

This discussion can go on for a while. The bottom line is that -- I think, Atobe is not done. We'll see him continue to evolve. I wouldn't be surprised if he and Tezuka end up at a comparable skill level toward the end of the series (Tezuka is clearly better right now).

This discussion should end now really. Atobe has nothing to suggest he can compete with Tezuka. And that's that. PoP will end him.
I wouldnt be surprised either but, right now as you have said. Atobe stands no chance.

How strong is Atobe really? In the tier with Akutsu, Niou, Tooyama, Fuji and Shiraishi.

 

[LetalHawk]

How strong is Atobe really? In the tier with Akutsu, Niou, Tooyama, Fuji and Shiraishi.

Tooyama and Akutsu are above him, like Echizen, Yukimura, Sanada and Tezuka. Atobe, from my point of view, can't get any better, I think he'll never be in another tier. What upgrade can you give to him?

Maybe he becomes fodder lol

 

[-Ken-]

Yeah, but for the way it's going in the series right now, shouldn't we predict things by 3 sets? If Sanada's Rai can win the the first set. And 7 more use (according to Kaoz) for another game. How'll he beat the other 2 set?

 

[Ninomiya]

Yeah, but for the way it's going in the series right now, shouldn't we predict things by 3 sets? If Sanada's Rai can win the the first set. And 7 more use (according to Kaoz) for another game. How'll he beat the other 2 set?

Let's predict that every MSer's stamina has been boosted slightly.
Since if Niou can also do many sets, and the next MSers that appear do a few sets, then its clear that EVERYBODY'S stamina stat has lifted at a reasonable amount.

@LetalHawk, Tooyama can hit 5 at once, but on Atobe's serve, Tooyama stands no chance if he Atobe brings out AK. Akutsu should be able to handle any ''dead angle'' shots with ease as he can hit any shot from any position. But it doesnt mean he will wipe Atobe as Atobe still has his good variety of smashes and techniques.
Remember Atobe shut down Muga Ryoma for a long time.

Also, Tooyama and Akutsu arent on Sanada, Yukimura level.
So they grouping them with Atobe and Shiraishi is appropriate.

 

[-Ken-]

Let's predict that every MSer's stamina has been boosted slightly.
Since if Niou can also do many sets, and the next MSers that appear do a few sets, then its clear that EVERYBODY'S stamina stat has lifted at a reasonable amount.

Stamina is one thing, but leg injury looked like me like another matter entirely. His leg is injured, from his own techniques, not by any accident. He might be able to handle more pain, though, due to his mountain training. But how much can someone improve in that, really? Assuming that it's by 50%, rate pretty much impossible for human being, that's 31*1.5=46.5, so let's say 47. That's 5 game into set 2. And the rest will be cakewalk for player of Atobe level.

He'll need Black Aura to beat Atobe.

 

[fdsjkl]

I dont know how this went on so long lol.

Atobe and Tezuka? Not on the same level, Atobe 7-6 score with a freakin injured Tezuka, Hiding Doubled Return on top of that.
Tezuka >>> Atobe and they arent real eternal/equal rivals like you think. @fdsjkl

Atobe VS Sanada? Rai can only be handled in the series so far by Yukimura, Tezuka (Possible Echizen Ryoma).
Atobe WILL lose. Dont care for the scoreline, but it WILL be a confident loss for him.

Atobe's Insight may predict Rai? Cool. Tezuka was able to predict it and get the ball to him with TZ... It raped his racket.
Your Techinque MUST be at Yukimura's level at the minimum OR have Tezuka Phantom, (Which cant be used excessively so Sanada will still overcome it coz he has decent endurance).

Unfortunately, Yukimura is depicted to have amongst the best Technique in the series. And TPhantom is only used by Niou and Tezuka.
Sorry but, Atobe is a level below Tezuka, Yukimura and Sanada. Always has been. We will see if that changes.

I think we've reached a consensus. But one thing that I disagree with is your emphasis on techniques. New techniques can just pop up randomly in a match. Given the track record in the canon, if Atobe and Sanada were to play, who is to say that Atobe doesn't 'invent' some counter to Rai after dropping 5 straight games (familiar pattern?). In fact, I think its v. likely that Atobe vs Sanada goes into some sort of tiebreak.

I love how ppl on this forum post technique Y owns technique X ergo player Y wins. In PoT, there is some mid-match revelation that obseletes the godlike status of technique Y. Techniques in PoT are ephemeral.

But whatever. If I was a betting man. I'd say that closer to the end of the series Atobe will be on the same tier as Sanada -- if he isn't already. Possibly, Tezuka (but I wouldn't bet on that one).

 

[Ninomiya]

Stamina is one thing, but leg injury looked like me like another matter entirely. His leg is injured, from his own techniques, not by any accident. He might be able to handle more pain, though, due to his mountain training. But how much can someone improve in that, really? Assuming that it's by 50%, rate pretty much impossible for human being, that's 31*1.5=46.5, so let's say 47. That's 5 game into set 2. And the rest will be cakewalk for player of Atobe level.

He'll need Black Aura to beat Atobe.

Erm... Kaidoh's stamina practically tripled during Inui's training between a tournament.
I think that after THE MOST Extreme training session Konomi has given us in the series (Mountain Training) will give the best results we have seen so far.
Your using HUMAN Logic for PoT again. Could ya stop doing that lol.

If Niou gets shown to be able to cope with 3 sets, then Im telling you Every other Top MSer including Sanada will too. Lightning will last him pretty long after training.
WITH BA Atobe is a dead man, but I reckon Sanada could still defeat him w/out BA.

You ask how much can someone improve? Kawamura's ability to taking a beating is fantastic. Even better than the Nationals I think. Summer of Danji KO'd Nakagauchi who survived against Krauser's best techniques which BADLY hurt Kirihara. Its likely that Date Danji > Ishida Gin.
Kawamura survived Date.

So I reckon every other MSer's endurance lifted. So did Kabaji's, Im guessing Kintaro's endurance for pain lifted too. So im not saying the endurance lift is exclusive to Sanada. I reckon ALL Losers now have better endurance for pain.
Sanada > Atobe. And likely without BA.

---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------

I think we've reached a consensus. But one thing that I disagree with is your emphasis on techniques. New techniques can just pop up randomly in a match. Given the track record in the canon, if Atobe and Sanada were to play, who is to say that Atobe doesn't 'invent' some counter to Rai after dropping 5 straight games (familiar pattern?). In fact, I think its v. likely that Atobe vs Sanada goes into some sort of tiebreak.

We go by facts on the forum. Your being a comedian if part of your argument is a massive chunk of plot power changing the match.
You havent come here to argue REALLY have you? Your being an intense Atobe fan right now lol.

With the current evidence, Sanada > Atobe confidently. But with plot power where Atobe suddenly learns a new technique then sure, anything can happen.
However this makes EVERY discussion on PoT pointless mean nothing.
We could say, Momoshiro/Kaidoh/Kite/Inui/Kirihara/Oshitari. Y gets a new technique that breaks ALL of Fuji's counters suddenly in the match.

I love how ppl on this forum post technique Y owns technique X ergo player Y wins. In PoT, there is some mid-match revelation that obseletes the godlike status of technique Y. Techniques in PoT are ephemeral.

But whatever. If I was a betting man. I'd say that closer to the end of the series Atobe will be on the same tier as Sanada -- if he isn't already. Possibly, Tezuka (but I wouldn't bet on that one).

We are all well aware of plot power here. Im disappointed that for your argument for Atobe to win, he will require plot power.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Tooyama and Akutsu are above him, like Echizen, Yukimura, Sanada and Tezuka. Atobe, from my point of view, can't get any better, I think he'll never be in another tier. What upgrade can you give to him?

Maybe he becomes fodder lol

He can always get an aura like Sanada.

Do you believe that Atobe can evolve and will become fodder?

 

[fdsjkl]

We go by facts on the forum. Your being a comedian if part of your argument is a massive chunk of plot power changing the match.
You havent come here to argue REALLY have you? Your being an intense Atobe fan right now lol.

With the current evidence, Sanada > Atobe confidently. But with plot power where Atobe suddenly learns a new technique then sure, anything can happen.
However this makes EVERY discussion on PoT pointless mean nothing.
We could say, Momoshiro/Kaidoh/Kite/Inui/Kirihara/Oshitari. Y gets a new technique that breaks ALL of Fuji's counters suddenly in the match.



We are all well aware of plot power here. Im disappointed that for your argument for Atobe to win, he will require plot power.

Trust me. I am no comedian. Its not 'plot power'. It is the fact that we have simply not seen Atobe get challenged enough or pushed to the brink of losing.

When Atobe gets wiped to the floor (like Sanada did against Yukimaru) we will see what happens. To put it this way:

Sanada lost 7-1 to Yuki in the U17. Is it implausible that Atobe would have taken him to a tiebreak -- somehow? One of Atobe's techniques and characteristics -- not plot power -- is his knack for clawing his way to match equality. That is a fact that has been demonstrated numerous times. Given this knack, I don't see him losing 7-1 to Yuki.

But I'm willing to concede that Atobe and Sanada are roughly similar since tennis is not transitive. Anyone who asserts that one is better than the other and passes this off as fact is a comedian. Simply put, we cannot discount Atobe (as many have done on the forums) and then claim its axiomatic. In reality we are all speculating.

To summarize; I'll take Atobe's knack for tenacity and unwillingness to lie down (a permanent feature) over Rai or Black Aura (techniques that will near obseletion in a few epochs). This line of thinking may deviate from the way the forum does business, but it is no less factual.

Who is the comedian now?

 

[Brandnewkid]

Thank you for saying this before I did. The only reason why Sanada's knees were giving out to begin with, was because of the fact he had to use it an abundance of times because of T-Phantom. Atobe has no way of returning Rai if Tezuka couldn't. People always flock to what Yukimura said after Sanada's match with Atobe to make a case for Atobe being better, and they COMPLETELY FORGET what Yukimura said during the match against Tezuka about himself being the ONLY ONE capable of beating Sanada as he is. That includes Atobe.

Spoiler

Yukimura's an asshole. He says that nobody could beat Sanada except for himself, yet Ryoma spanked that ass in the blink of an eye and went on to play Yukimura with much energy to spare.

Don't hype up Sanada as someone who "only Yukimura could beat."

I don't even know what that can prove. Just because Atobe can't beat Sanada doesn't mean he's not just as good as Sanada. It can honestly go in either one of them's favor.

 

[Fayte]

Yukimura's an asshole. He says that nobody could beat Sanada except for himself, yet Ryoma spanked that ass in the blink of an eye and went on to play Yukimura with much energy to spare.

Don't hype up Sanada as someone who "only Yukimura could beat."

You're assuming they actually had a real match? (Let alone assuming someone got spanked) I thought it was pretty clear they were just trying to get his memories back.

 

[Brandnewkid]

You're assuming they actually had a real match? (Let alone assuming someone got spanked) I thought it was pretty clear they were just trying to get his memories back.

It's outright stated that they did.

Here, I got it from the episode, and even though this dialogue doesn't appear in the manga, it's pretty much suggested:

*Ryoma hits Rai*

Yukimura: "So you showed him that of all things?"

Sanada: "You're well aware of this: we fight until we reach the pinnacle of our strengths in a head-on battle. That is how Rikkai Dai Fuzoku does things."

Yukimura: "Such a thing is mere childish foolishness."

 

[Fayte]

It's outright stated that they did.

Regardless, Echizen is always the exception to every rule, so you still do not have a point. Yukimura was still right in saying he is the only one capable of beating Sanada, because Echizen will always beat everyone, so he is always the exception. Saying "Well, Echizen did it so _____ can too" does not exist in the realm of actual arguments.

 

[Brandnewkid]

I'm still not understanding why everyone's sleeping on Atobe just because he's not Rikkai or Yukimura or Echizen or whatever. Do you realize how good of a tennis player Atobe is? Genius be damned, this is the guy who used Muga without using Muga. He's the King of Tennis for a reason.

I'm not saying he's stronger than Sanada, but for him to beat Sanada wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Game done.

 

[Kaoz]

I don't think anybody is saying that Atobe sucks, it's more like that he doesn't appear to be quite on the same level as the top of the top.

Stamina is one thing, but leg injury looked like me like another matter entirely. His leg is injured, from his own techniques, not by any accident. He might be able to handle more pain, though, due to his mountain training. But how much can someone improve in that, really? Assuming that it's by 50%, rate pretty much impossible for human being, that's 31*1.5=46.5, so let's say 47. That's 5 game into set 2. And the rest will be cakewalk for player of Atobe level.

He'll need Black Aura to beat Atobe.

Niou went from one use of TPhantom to 48 with an additional 7 ZSS thrown in. If they improved at roughly the same rate, Sanada's legs shouldn't give out halfway through the second set. By all means, add BA though.

You are right that we should probably evaluate matches on a three set basis from now on though.

Trust me. I am no comedian. Its not 'plot power'. It is the fact that we have simply not seen Atobe get challenged enough or pushed to the brink of losing.

Against Irie he got pushed which resulted in him getting AK (and GIGUE, whatever it does). When Sanada got pushed it resulted in him getting BA.

@The rest
While you can say that Atobe could get a new technique during the match, what's stopping me from saying that Sanada wouldn't get a new one as well, making the gap effectively the same again or possibly even widening it?
When you argue about the outcome of a match and want to take improvements into account, you might as well save yourself the time and effort since that argument can always apply to both sides.

 

[fdsjkl]

Against Irie he got pushed which resulted in him getting AK (and GIGUE, whatever it does). When Sanada got pushed it resulted in him getting BA.

@The rest
While you can say that Atobe could get a new technique during the match, what's stopping me from saying that Sanada wouldn't get a new one as well, making the gap effectively the same again or possibly even widening it?
When you argue about the outcome of a match and want to take improvements into account, you might as well save yourself the time and effort since that argument can always apply to both sides.

You are right -- it does apply to both sides. What I'm seeing in this thread is that people hype up Sanada because of Rai or Black Aura...saying that Atobe can't cope with these techniques...

The point is that techniques in general evolve (on both sides). So if Sanada is superior technically right now, it does not mean he is better as both players will evolve technically -- BA will be obselete and so will AK. But in terms of characterization, Atobe has a knack for attaining match equality -- at which point anything can happen (even a draw as in Irie!). So I feel that whoever Atobe plays, he will find some way to get to a tiebreak, and anything can happen from there.

But look, I'm willing to say that Atobe and Sanada are approximately equal (its too close to call). I'm pretty sure if they played each other it would be a close, long drawn out match. I also believe -- and this isn't exactly factual -- that Atobe will end up in a tier similar to Tezuka. If I were to visualize an ending to the franchise, it would consist of Echizen joining the pros along with Tezuka and Atobe.

 

[Ninomiya]

Trust me. I am no comedian. Its not 'plot power'. It is the fact that we have simply not seen Atobe get challenged enough or pushed to the brink of losing.

We saw Irie walk all over him for fun. Then at the end, we saw Tanegashima let us know Irie COULD have won anyway. Im sorry but your being an intense fan right now. We DID see Atobe lose to Echizen Ryoma and get smacked by Irie who let it be a draw.

We are now seeing Ochi alone take out Atobe and Niou with Mouri on the side just having fun. We see Atobe get challenged and pushed to the brink of losing in NEARLY EVERY MATCH HE PLAYS.
Injured Tezuka took him to 7-6 FFS.

Sanada lost 7-1 to Yuki in the U17. Is it implausible that Atobe would have taken him to a tiebreak -- somehow? One of Atobe's techniques and characteristics -- not plot power -- is his knack for clawing his way to match equality. That is a fact that has been demonstrated numerous times. Given this knack, I don't see him losing 7-1 to Yuki.

Its possible that Yukimura could defeat him without it reaching tie-break.

Sanada's characteristic is ALSO to claw his way through a match. He did so with Yukimura who was crushing him, now Sanada is possibly as strong as Yuki and there is the argument he could be stronger. Sanada survived Yips due to his characteristic while Tooyama and Fuwa could not.
So basically your beloved Atobe isnt the only one with the persistent characteristic. Given them BOTH having this knack, It still boils down to Atobe overcoming Rai. HE CANNOT RIGHT NOW. Sanada > Atobe its as clear as day right now.

But I'm willing to concede that Atobe and Sanada are roughly similar since tennis is not transitive. Anyone who asserts that one is better than the other and passes this off as fact is a comedian. Simply put, we cannot discount Atobe (as many have done on the forums) and then claim its axiomatic. In reality we are all speculating.

Can Atobe defeat Rai? YES or NO?
We are NOT discounting Atobe on this forum. I am aware how awesome he is. He is just not as strong as Sanada from what we have been given.
It is NOT speculation if Atobe has no way to defeat Rai as far as we know. Let alone Black Aura which is shown to be possibly comparable to TMnK.

To summarize; I'll take Atobe's knack for tenacity and unwillingness to lie down (a permanent feature) over Rai or Black Aura (techniques that will near obseletion in a few epochs). This line of thinking may deviate from the way the forum does business, but it is no less factual.

Sanada willingly lies down then? He persisted despite getting walked over by Yukimura and it paid off as he got a new technique out of it.
Tooyama and Fuwa were destroyed by Yips however Sanada survived Yips. It means that Atobe isnt the only one with persistence.
So I am still dealing with facts. Nothing suggests Atobe is MORE persistent than Sanada. They have equal persistence we could say.
Can Atobe defeat Rai?? HE CANNOT AS FAR AS WE ARE AWARE. Let alone Black Aura.

Who is the comedian now?

Its STILL you. How does Atobe defeat Rai? Let alone Black Aura which can take a point of Yukimura which MOST/NearlyALL MSers cannot do.