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duerlin

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With Razor it was not a fight, just a game. Hisoka for a moment was cornered by Gotoh, so I think on that fight it was the most serious he got in the whole manga, still not enough to finish Gotoh without playing with him first. So yeah, we didn't see Hisoka fighting to its fulliest.

edit: Although, all his talk could have been to make Gotoh play more attention to the coins than to his surrouding...
 
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Kanmuru

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The power levels advanced so much since Heavens Arena, if I consider the feats we have seen so far from Hisoka I don't see him winning against anyone of this: Morel, Knov, Knuckle, Ging, Razor, Fighter Zodiacs, Biscuit, Netero, Beyond, Zeno, Silva, even actual Gon and Killua would give him a run for his money right now..
At this point we can't even consider him like a final boss, he is just an important side character, he can be pretty kind sometimes.
 

Machi-tan

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I agree. Even one of the butlers gave him alittle run for his money. And not to put down the Butlers of the estate but obviously the actual Zoldyck family, save for the younger ones, are all stronger supposedly than their butlers.

I feel like Hisoka is walking into his own death with the Chrollo obsession. Again if Zeno and Silva are both at Illumi's power level (which it's probably healthy to assume that they are both slightly better assassins but, assuming they are completely equal) He fought off two combatants that are Illumi's power level without the intent to kill. He was more or less toying with them to understand and steal their nen abilities, but even tho he wasn't 100% into the fight and both of them were coming at him with what i assume was at least 70%. Chrollo is strong as hell.

If Chrollo ever fought Hisoka at 100%, hisoka would lose (at his current strength level).
 

Demonspeed

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I don't really see how Gotoh gave him a run for his money, when Hisoka even told him about his ability and had already prepared a way to dodge his attacks. As for Chrollo, I would not say that he was toying with them, he was at 100% but focused on defense. Zeno at the end confirmed that he could have killed him if he was not trying to steal his abilities in 1VS1, and he faced Silva before and survived. IMO Chrollo, Hisoka, Zeno, Silva and Illumi are in the same ballpark.
 

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Gotoh and Hisoka were probably not that far apart in experience. Neither in 'raw' strength. Hisoka's ability's utility won him that fight more than anything. Again Utility is good, and it's his skill so obviously it's carried over. but my point is if you take a Tier of fighting ability, and add universal utility, you can achieve a fighter whose intuition and underhanded tactics (emotional and mental) give him the edge on opponents similar in combat 'skill' then you'd have Hisoka.

Hisoka said it himself (Again unless he was being coy and wanted to give undue credit which doesn't sound like hisoka) He would've had a bad time with Kastro if he focused on perfecting his particular nen rather than learning two new abilities that are in opposite branches. Hisoka didn't 'lose' those arms because he wanted to. He just deemed it a required sacrifice he'd use to harm his opponent mentally when he reattached it to get the mental edge in the battle. He needed the gross out factor to attach the gum as he saw fit. And he needed mark his opponent with blood in order to tell the clone apart from the original. He had to take a stance up on the enemy and seemingly give up limbs knowing that he'd win, even tho afterwards he himself (again Unless hisoka is in the business of giving out false compliments) said he screwed himself over losing his temper, and by fooling around with a different area of nen.

So no. I don't think Hisoka 'wasn't' serious. Because if you were looking at him mannerisms then the Razor match is a good example of when he was actually on the ropes but still kept his cool. Hisoka is an individual that is so far removed from what the normal requires from him he wears a persona that is much scarier than it actually is. Hisoka is a great figther because of this, but honestly God speed Killua might just give him a run for his money, and his suicidal obsession with waiting until Gon is in his prime for a death match isn't going to serve him well.
 

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Gotoh and Hisoka were probably not that far apart in experience. Neither in 'raw' strength. Hisoka's ability's utility won him that fight more than anything. Again Utility is good, and it's his skill so obviously it's carried over. but my point is if you take a Tier of fighting ability, and add universal utility, you can achieve a fighter whose intuition and underhanded tactics (emotional and mental) give him the edge on opponents similar in combat 'skill' then you'd have Hisoka.
What is raw strength to you? By utility you must referring to the Hatsu's usefulness but I don't see how it would not be important in a fight since a Nen fighter will fight different types of fighters, same as mental strength,even with a big gap between two opponents in terms of Aura power, Aura mastery, pure physical skills, Hatsu or intelligence you can't win if you rely too much on a single category, Youpi VS Knuckle and Shoot is a good example where he was clearly superior in terms of AT but was dumb, and could do nothing at all before Killua, once he started to use hsi brains the fight became easier, Meruem VS Netero was similar, his exceptional durability enough would have not been enough to corner Netero like that.

I think it was pretty obvious that he was not serious against Kastro and did all of this because he is insane and wanted to break Kastro's mentally, Kastro himself said it, Hisoka never took the initiative during this fight, he mostly stood still and waited for him to attack, even in terms of physical skills Hisoka was superior. The only time when we saw him "fight" for real in a Nen battle was against Gon in HA, other than this time he is always letting the others take the initiative.

As you said, he could have been a good opponent if he had focused on Enhancement training but he didn't, he focused on Conjuration and Manipulation, which is dumb, he would have been much, much more powerful with a focus on Enhancement. I want to know how strong do you think Kastro is then? When it was made clear that Hisoka was one of the strongest of the Troupe? The Troupe who are a match for Razor himself? Against Razor it was a game, and I don't see how he was on the ropes when he outsmarted him, reacted fast enough to dodge and catch the ball despite his surprise attack and returned his best move with his Bungee Gum.
 

XXGenesis

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With Razor it was not a fight, just a game. Hisoka for a moment was cornered by Gotoh, so I think on that fight it was the most serious he got in the whole manga, still not enough to finish Gotoh without playing with him first. So yeah, we didn't see Hisoka fighting to its fulliest.

edit: Although, all his talk could have been to make Gotoh play more attention to the coins than to his surrouding...
Gotoh never had Hisoka cornered...Gotoh showed he was able to overwhelm Hisoka's Bungee gum in the way Hisoka was using it, But Hisoka wasn't cornered nor in any danger..Seeing how he already had bungee gum attached to his feet to sling shot himself around, The. Psyched him out with a lie to distract him from the real killing blow

The power levels advanced so much since Heavens Arena, if I consider the feats we have seen so far from Hisoka I don't see him winning against anyone of this: Morel, Knov, Knuckle, Ging, Razor, Fighter Zodiacs, Biscuit, Netero, Beyond, Zeno, Silva, even actual Gon and Killua would give him a run for his money right now..
At this point we can't even consider him like a final boss, he is just an important side character, he can be pretty kind sometimes.
Umm no not really..HxH isn't like Bleach or Naruto in that sense. I say it's not like them in that term because I believe HxH has a much better representation and consistence of Power or battle semactics....

Here's the thing Hisoka since his introduction has always been in the top caliber ranking, as the manga progresses we are introduce to other characters of his caliber or more...The thing Is we never get to see Hisoka fighting seriously agains't someone on his Lv, while the other characters of his caliber or more are given those opportunities to show thier full worth so they stand out more because they have feats to support their greatness...While a character like Hisoka is limite to few feats, much hype, dialogue praise from other characters..all this without A fight scene to give it proper justification...Story telling isn't easy or perfect
 

duerlin

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Kastro if had kept with Reinforcement had the potential to reach a Genei Ryodan member level. But as he was, he was way weaker than Gon and Killua after Chimera Ant arc.
The manga only gives us that Hisoka is on the same tier of the Ryodan. His confidence in being able to take on Chrollo is not unreasonable, even with Chrollo showing to be superior in terms of physical strengh and Nen power. What the manga shows imo is that after a certain tier the kind of Nen ability and the fighting style can make one sustain at least for a few moments a fight with chances of winning with other with superior abilities. In this scenario of Chrollo x Hisoka, even Chrollo being able to withstand Zeno's and Silva's Nen attack individually, he doesn't seem to be able to survive a card slitting his throat. If Hisoka fighting style and techiniques were not that ofensive and focused on killing like Gon's, even such a fighter on the same level or slightly above Chrollo would be in disadvantage with him due to his better set of abilitites.
 

Demonspeed

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Kastro if had kept with Reinforcement had the potential to reach a Genei Ryodan member level. But as he was, he was way weaker than Gon and Killua after Chimera Ant arc.
The manga only gives us that Hisoka is on the same tier of the Ryodan. His confidence in being able to take on Chrollo is not unreasonable, even with Chrollo showing to be superior in terms of physical strengh and Nen power. What the manga shows imo is that after a certain tier the kind of Nen ability and the fighting style can make one sustain at least for a few moments a fight with chances of winning with other with superior abilities. In this scenario of Chrollo x Hisoka, even Chrollo being able to withstand Zeno's and Silva's Nen attack individually, he doesn't seem to be able to survive a card slitting his throat. If Hisoka fighting style and techiniques were not that ofensive and focused on killing like Gon's, even such a fighter on the same level or slightly above Chrollo would be in disadvantage with him due to his better set of abilitites.
Chrollo is not superior to Hisoka physically, he is 7th in arm wrestling while Hisoka is 3rd, only behind the two Enhancers Uvo and Phinks. We can't really say who has the most powerful Aura ATM.
 

duerlin

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By "physical" I consider the overall of strength, endurance, speed and the mastering in Ten, Ren and Gyo/Cho as well. Chrollo endured without harm the fight with Zeno and Silva while Hisoka had a few broken fingers from a ball from a dummy.
 

XXGenesis

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By "physical" I consider the overall of strength, endurance, speed and the mastering in Ten, Ren and Gyo/Cho as well. Chrollo endured without harm the fight with Zeno and Silva while Hisoka had a few broken fingers from a ball from a dummy.
Going by your term you are still incorrect..Hisoka is Chrollo superior in base physical stats.

Chrollo surviving Silva's attack is heavily PIS/Plot Device, the author never intended for anybody to die as an outcome of that fight nor did he intend for anybody to get seriously damaged..so tanking that blast isn't a good feat to run to.

Intelligence, Experience, Battle experience, Cunningness
Nen proficiency, Hatsu ability, Base Stats, Weaponry IN HXH all plays apart in the Characters Strentgh.

Mostly it's experience (skill), Physical Stats, Intellegence & Hatsu
 

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By "physical" I consider the overall of strength, endurance, speed and the mastering in Ten, Ren and Gyo/Cho as well. Chrollo endured without harm the fight with Zeno and Silva while Hisoka had a few broken fingers from a ball from a dummy.
The scene is not even clear, Togashi didn't show everything for a reason, he could have dodged and protected certain parts of his body, Zeno was there too plus he was not really unscathed. He would need to have much more Aura than Silva to use Ken on all his body and tank a hit made to kill like that, if he used Gyo on the body part Silva targeted it would make more sense but Silva had create two energy balls and Chrollo should have been the only target, we don't know what was Zeno doing during this time, maybe he used Skill Hunter too, we don't know.

What Hisoka blocked was not originally Razor's attack, which lost power because of the change in trajectory and he caught it with one hand coated with Bungee Gum, he said himself that having only two fingers broken is good due to the original power of the attack, and even with these two broken fingers he returned Razor's strongest ball at the end.
 
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Kanmuru

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Umm no not really..HxH isn't like Bleach or Naruto in that sense. I say it's not like them in that term because I believe HxH has a much better representation and consistence of Power or battle semactics....

Here's the thing Hisoka since his introduction has always been in the top caliber ranking, as the manga progresses we are introduce to other characters of his caliber or more...The thing Is we never get to see Hisoka fighting seriously agains't someone on his Lv,
What? Gon and Killua are miles ahead of what they where in heavens arena, the training with biscuit did a lot, also NGL and with knuckle/shoot. Hisoka was top caliber compared to the protagonist, he is just Phantom Troupe/Illumi lvl, who are super weak compared to Youpi/Pouf/Pitou/Netero/Ging (real top caliber) I'm not even mentioning Meruem.. So yes, the power lvl advanced that much.
I know this is not typical shonen in battles, strategy is always a super strong option, not just Kamehameha everywhere. You can't deny the power level is far-far-far away from the start.
 
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What? Gon and Killua are miles ahead of what they where in heavens arena, the training with biscuit did a lot, also NGL and with knuckle/shoot. Hisoka was top caliber compared to the protagonist, he is just Phantom Troupe/Illumi lvl, who are super weak compared to Youpi/Pouf/Pitou/Netero/Ging (real top caliber) I'm not even mentioning Meruem.. So yes, the power lvl advanced that much.
I know this is not typical shonen in battles, strategy is always a super strong option, not just Kamehameha everywhere. You can't deny the power level is far-far-far away from the start.
I think it's the way you formulate it which is the problem. The power levels didn't really advance, Gon and Killua are closer to the top level now due to training.
 

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Firstly Hisoka didn't exactly outsmart razor, he just made the return of a ball with a rubber element aura, even i would've thought of something similar on the spot. Not alot of insight. And secondly you saw the physical strain Razor was causing to all 3 of them when they even combined to stop the ball. In terms of raw power Razor could probably beat Hisoka, but the utility of Hisoka's skill is where the real shady jump in power comes from. It's unpredictable nature makes him something to watch out for, being able to hold Gyo on at all times is probably in the base requirements of beating Hisoka. Hisoka is strong. but is he as strong as the bigger tier of opponents? Not particularly.

Hisoka would've probably lost against any of the Chimera Ant Guards. (considering how a strike team wasn't strong enough to wipe them out and it took poison to kill majority). Meruem post and pre rose would've beaten him.

As for the Chrollo vs Zoldyck face off. It's because it was a plot device that it was important to pay attention to. Yeah the author didn't want anyone to die in that fight, obviously but the point made is still clear. Here is a character who can hold his own against two well known assassins in the Hxh universe, who are coming at him with the intent to kill. Obviously the intent to kill =/= using their max power, but still two Zoldycks at once? That feat is impressive in of itself. As you said: Illumi, Zeno, Silva are in the same ball park. even without 100% effort. The two of them on Chrollo at the same time with a mission to kill him? A mission that would probably be easily accomphlished by sacrificing one of their own? Chrollo is definitely stronger. He fought Silva 1vs1 when he was younger and survived, and he has the ability to kill the old head of the Zoldycks in a 1 one 1? So far the only impressive thing we've seen Hisoka do is manipulate the phantom troupe as a whole, and face Razor.

Vs Chrollo fighting two Zoldycks at once and holding his own while lacking the intent to kill, only to fulfill conditions to activate his nen ability.
 

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Firstly Hisoka didn't exactly outsmart razor, he just made the return of a ball with a rubber element aura, even i would've thought of something similar on the spot. Not alot of insight. And secondly you saw the physical strain Razor was causing to all 3 of them when they even combined to stop the ball. In terms of raw power Razor could probably beat Hisoka, but the utility of Hisoka's skill is where the real shady jump in power comes from. It's unpredictable nature makes him something to watch out for, being able to hold Gyo on at all times is probably in the base requirements of beating Hisoka. Hisoka is strong. but is he as strong as the bigger tier of opponents? Not particularly.
That's what I call outsmarting, Razor didn't think of it, same as when he waited for the ball to fall and Hisoka caught the ball before he could do anything. I don't understand why Bungee Gum would not count as Hisoka's power, he was the one who created his Hatsu and use it very well, he thought about the numerous applications, nobody has a power like him and nobody could use it like him. True that it was hard for them to stop his ball but it's because Gon was not eliminated, he wanted to face Razor, it deosn't change that Hisoka returned his last attack with his Bungee Gum despite his two broken fingers.

I disagree with your opinion that maintaining Gyo is enough to beat him, as he said against Gon, he hides it only when his opponent is not on his guard(and being on his guard in a fight to death is crucial), Bungee Gum is not an ability only useful for tricks, to fight against Hisoka when serious would be very annoying, again I will use Hisoka VS Gon as an example the only fight where he really took the initiative to attack for real, he can stick it to his members and with only one hit you are trapped, once he used it he can control the gun remotely, in his last fight we learnt that he can use it even on his legs, the applications are endless, to not be caught by Bungee Gum you must dodge all his attacks.

By raw power do you mean Aura volume? Though I think he is most likely superior there is no way to confirm that, same for physical strength since Hisoka is physically stronger than even the bulky Franklin who is an Emitter like Razor, raw power is not enough to win in a Nen battle anyway or the best fighters would have only been Enhancers.


Hisoka would've probably lost against any of the Chimera Ant Guards. (considering how a strike team wasn't strong enough to wipe them out and it took poison to kill majority). Meruem post and pre rose would've beaten him.
Of course, the Royal guards are stronger than all the human characters who appeared so far.

As for the Chrollo vs Zoldyck face off. It's because it was a plot device that it was important to pay attention to. Yeah the author didn't want anyone to die in that fight, obviously but the point made is still clear. Here is a character who can hold his own against two well known assassins in the Hxh universe, who are coming at him with the intent to kill. Obviously the intent to kill =/= using their max power, but still two Zoldycks at once? That feat is impressive in of itself. As you said: Illumi, Zeno, Silva are in the same ball park. even without 100% effort. The two of them on Chrollo at the same time with a mission to kill him? A mission that would probably be easily accomphlished by sacrificing one of their own? Chrollo is definitely stronger. He fought Silva 1vs1 when he was younger and survived, and he has the ability to kill the old head of the Zoldycks in a 1 one 1? So far the only impressive thing we've seen Hisoka do is manipulate the phantom troupe as a whole, and face Razor.

Vs Chrollo fighting two Zoldycks at once and holding his own while lacking the intent to kill, only to fulfill conditions to activate his nen ability.
Chrollo was very impressive indeed, but it's not only because he is that strong that he survived, it's because he was only focused on defense, he was not trying to kill them because he was pressured by two opponents of his caliber, had he been on the offensive it would have been different, his defense would have dropped and there would have been openings to kill him. He didn't show his cards, what was really impressive was to see him clash with Zeno who was trying to kill him, while still being able to follow Silva. In 1VS1 him winning against Silva or Zeno is not certain(though I personally think that he is stronger than Zeno but the fight would be very difficult anyway).

About Silva's attack, after rereading the fight I am even more certain that he didn't tank it, he must have dodged and used Ken or Gyo to protect himself from the explosion or used an ability Zeno's Dragon Lance would have been enough to break his guard, we can agree that Zeno and Silva's power are similar, there is no way he simply tanked it. The problem with Hisoka is that he has more hype than feats, he is praised by strong fighters and has never fought someone of his level in the manga, if you agree that Zeno, Silva and Illumi are in the same ballpark, why do you think that Hisoka is not when he is clearly at Illumi's level?
 
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Kanmuru

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I think it's the way you formulate it which is the problem. The power levels didn't really advance, Gon and Killua are closer to the top level now due to training.
You're right. I'm talking about gon and killua mostly, and the scenarios they met in every arc. The powers surround them (friends, enemies) increase a lot each arc.
My point is: Hisoka was a top tier monster on the hunters exam, but now he is just a "Good" fighter, not even close to top tier. So, not an advance in every mean of the word, we're discovering stronger people every time, that's what I mean.
It's a similar concept IMO. The power lvl advanced for protagonist and enemies, but they where just there beforehand.
Hope you understand me xD
 
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I was saying that the ability to use Gyo for a prolonged period of time is probably one of the most Basic requirements to beat Hisoka. He can go toe to toe with alot of opponents. but his abilities to viciously scale in power with the best of them comes from the surprise factor of his skills. Basically the exact opposite of Gon, who beat majority of his opponents with direct methods. If surprise is taken out of the fight, a person who was previously much below hisoka (Like Kastro) would have a MUCH better chance. I mean i personally don't like using Hypotheticals as reference. but had Kastro not been coyed into allowing Bungie gum to stick on him in several spots through using Gyo intelligently in the fight, then the outcome might've been closer. Maybe Hisoka would've had better hand to hand technique, but it would certainly not have ended so neatly for the twisted jester. In fact alot of Hisoka's victories have come from just simple surprise and misdirection, the only feat of his personal power we've seen is the Razor fight, where he incurred physical damage while exerting what we can safely assume is close to his max strength.

Hisoka isn't a 'bad' fighter by any means, i just believe there is more mystery and hype behind his strength than anything. And i would be on Chrollo

---------- Post added December 23, 2014 at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was December 19, 2014 at 01:25 AM ----------

Not sure if there is death by double post on these forums or not but:

Since the Topic of Hisoka has died down. What about Ging? I haven't read much into the manga but he's supposedly one of the worlds top Nen users. Which kind of makes me wonder why the chairman didn't ask for their help with the Ants. if not Ging maybe like 4 Zodiacs would've been all that was needed to actually effectively defeat Pre rose Meruem?
 

XXGenesis

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You're right. I'm talking about gon and killua mostly, and the scenarios they met in every arc. The powers surround them (friends, enemies) increase a lot each arc.
My point is: Hisoka was a top tier monster on the hunters exam, but now he is just a "Good" fighter, not even close to top tier. So, not an advance in every mean of the word, we're discovering stronger people every time, that's what I mean.
It's a similar concept IMO. The power lvl advanced for protagonist and enemies, but they where just there beforehand.
Hope you understand me xD
Lol he's still top tier.....Plz everybody go to the Rankng Thread I would love to see how ppl rank HxH characters..Hisoka is in the same class as Zeno,Silva,Chrollo, Razor & Moreu; The only Lv above that is DArk Continent Lv Netero,Royal Guards,Meruem, Gon-San

The Dark Continent Lv is absurd and Netero with a vastly superior ability to the ants didn't have the power to crush them...Dark Continent IMO is like a bonus stage, Plot lv...I doubt we 'll see too many characters on this lv without a plot device like Gon-San

Ging has the hype and dialogue for potentially being one of the strongest Human characters if not characters period. Netero seemed pretty sure he was stronger than him...& That's madness because Netero has an attack speed faster than 0.1 seconds
 

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where did netero say ging was stronger than him?

I think ging is one of the best if not the best when it comes to udnerstanding nen techniques and making them his own.
I even think he does not copy them like chrollo does, he sees them and understands how to do it himself for techniques which are rather basic and not as advanced and user dependend as netero's hands, killuah's god speed or tsubone's vehicles.

That is not his hatsu,, in my opinion, that is jsut his natural talent. WHile chrollo copies techniques and can copy every technique and has exactly this as his nen ability, ging is more like 'lol i can do that too' while his own nen ability remains unnown to us.
And that is an incredible task.

However, i do not think ging would have been able to beat netero, even old netero, in a fight.
He would have been smart enough to avoid fighting netero for real.
 
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