Discussion How strong is...

[Aonori]

I can see hisoka being able to similarly stall for time against those two.
'Stronger' is also a loosely defined term.
I would believe that Kastro was stronger than Hisoka if he kept his cool.
He was able to take an arm from him and before dominated him in a fight.
If he would not have let hisoka into his head, he would have a very high chance of winning even with his nen ability being far away from his preference.

Yet, Hisoka won because he was smarter and pulled off an amazing trick.

Hisoka has two abilities, but he is able to use those in very unexspected ways.
I can easily see him using bungee gum to use chrollo's abilities against chrollo (for example sticking a sun and a moon symbol towards chrollo or somethin glike t hat.

Which is why Chrollo stated he would have to use more abilities to defeat him.

 

[Demonspeed]

I would not say Kastro was stronger. Hisoka was not that serious, he fought like that for entertainment. He was stationary during most of the fight at the beginning and didn't want to reveal his ability. Against Gon he was truly serious. Kastro had the potential to be a threat but he wasted this potential with his Doppelganger. He needed to focus on his Tiger Bite.

 

[XXGenesis]

How strong do ppl think Hisoka is???

I honestly rate him as Top 10 maybe Top5 Strongest Human characters..
Issac
Beyond
Partison
Ging
Hisoka,Chrollo,Zeno,Silva,Illumi,
Maha,Razor...Zodiacs

 

[Demonspeed]

How strong do ppl think Hisoka is???

I honestly rate him as Top 10 maybe Top5 Strongest Human characters..
Issac
Beyond
Partison
Ging
Hisoka,Chrollo,Zeno,Silva,Illumi,
Maha...Zodiacs

Zodiac level, just like Zeno, Silva, Illumi and Chrollo,they are among the strongest Human characters. I think Ging is stronger than Netero, probably Maha too. Pariston is probably not that strong, for a Zodiac at least, not stronger than Ging at least.

 

[shionoro]

I dont think ging is a stronger fighter than netero, maybe not even stronger than botobai and ginta.
Aß for Hisoka, i Do think he outclasses Most hunters but is not in the top 5.
Thing like that are Hard to tell tho because we aktuelly never Saw a Lot of the strongest hunters fight serious (biske for example, too)

 

[Demonspeed]

Nothing says that Botobai and Ginta are the strongest Zodiacs either. Botobai is most likely one of them considering what we know about him a but even though Ginta got a 90 from Hisoka while Kanzai and Piyon got 85 and 77 respectively. Their abilities are not considered here. Ging is very strong and a genius plus he's not past his prime like Netero(the one advantage Netero got from his old age is that his Aura flow became unreadable but he said that his Aura output was twice stronger before IIRC) so I think he's most likely stronger than him.

 

[shionoro]

Nothing says that Botobai and Ginta are the strongest Zodiacs either. Botobai is most likely one of them considering what we know about him a but even though Ginta got a 90 from Hisoka while Kanzai and Piyon got 85 and 77 respectively. Their abilities are not considered here. Ging is very strong and a genius plus he's not past his prime like Netero(the one advantage Netero got from his old age is that his Aura flow became unreadable but he said that his Aura output was twice stronger before IIRC) so I think he's most likely stronger than him.

But isnt it rather meaningless when your aura is as strong as netero's whether it is halved against a human character?
Meruem could survive his blasts, but how many of them could ging take?
I dont think he could take more than a hundred or so.

It is true that we dont know much about the zodiac, they can aswell be weaker than ging, but i do not think the fighting zodiac are weaker than him.
We will probably be able tio judge that better in hundred chapters or so after some of the zodiacs fought (and ging fought, too.).

 

[Demonspeed]

But isnt it rather meaningless when your aura is as strong as netero's whether it is halved against a human character?
Meruem could survive his blasts, but how many of them could ging take?
I dont think he could take more than a hundred or so.

It is true that we dont know much about the zodiac, they can aswell be weaker than ging, but i do not think the fighting zodiac are weaker than him.
We will probably be able tio judge that better in hundred chapters or so after some of the zodiacs fought (and ging fought, too.).

It does have its importance. Not everyone would fight like Meruem. He did this only because he has that sturdy body and no long range attacks. Depending on your ability you can fight differently. And of course your resistance to the hits depends on the Aura volume and more.

I am really curious to see how Kanzai fights. Usually top tiers are supposed to be resourceful to be able to face any type of opponents but he doesn't appear to be like that at all. And yet he's that strong.

 

[XXGenesis]

I'm glad Chrollo at the moment is using very little offensive Nen abilities yet, he's kicking ass & spinning a deadly web for Hisoka...

Goes to show ppl how Manipulators, Conjurers would/can fight when they aren't physically superior or strong.

I believe a few of the Zodiacs have Kool hatsu, that aren't primary attacks, but a set up to a bigger finish..

 

[Demonspeed]

I'm glad Chrollo at the moment is using very little offensive Nen abilities yet, he's kicking ass & spinning a deadly web for Hisoka...

Goes to show ppl how Manipulators, Conjurers would/can fight when they aren't physically superior or strong.

I believe a few of the Zodiacs have Kool hatsu, that aren't primary attacks, but a set up to a bigger finish..

Manipulators and Conjurers have never been considered as weak to begin with, they have less raw power than Enhancers but they make up for it with other advantages. All types have strengths and weaknesses. Chrollo is able to do all of this due to his Specialization Hatsu, the others would not be able to combine abilities.

 

[Demonspeed]

Do you have a source? Hisoka easily losing to Pitou is not surprising at all but Morel can't beat her either, instantly killed just means that he will lose quickly, not that it'll end in one second, just like with Kite. Pouf disarmed him because he is obsessed with mind games and wanted to go to Meruem, he could kill Morel easily. Morel can just stall for time with the kind of ability he has, in the end he would be unable to do anything significant to them, same for Hisoka. And the strategy he used against Youpi worked because he had used smoke beforehand.

Youpi can also easily beat him. Morel himself is not a fighter. He is smart but he is not at the level of the Zodiacs or Hisoka. I don't see how the Zodiacs could hae not helped. Netero could repel Pitou by himself, with the help of the Zodiacs(we don't even know their abilities) and a good plan they could have killed the guards together.

 

[Phantron]

Do you have a source? Hisoka easily losing to Pitou is not surprising at all but Morel can't beat her either, instantly killed just means that he will lose quickly, not that it'll end in one second, just like with Kite. Pouf disarmed him because he is obsessed with mind games and wanted to go to Meruem, he could kill Morel easily. Morel can just stall for time with the kind of ability he has, in the end he would be unable to do anything significant to them, same for Hisoka. And the strategy he used against Youpi worked because he had used smoke beforehand.

Youpi can also easily beat him. Morel himself is not a fighter. He is smart but he is not at the level of the Zodiacs or Hisoka. I don't see how the Zodiacs could hae not helped. Netero could repel Pitou by himself, with the help of the Zodiacs(we don't even know their abilities) and a good plan they could have killed the guards together.

I deleted the post. Seems like it came at the same time as 356 because people are surprised why Hisoka was doing so poorly overall so this old thing surfaced. I can't tell if it's incorrectly sourced though it was dated back in 2012 and discussed back then so it's not something new people made up. Upon closer examination it appears the claim is that Togashi said Hisoka would instant kill Pitou. Without knowing the context I'd have to assume Togashi must have thought that was a dumb question to ask and gave a sarcastic answer if it indeed happened back in 2012. The wording used really is just instant kill. As in, the fight is immediately over as soon as it started.

That said, I do think Togashi is responsible for not having power levels so that HXH power level discussions always become rather stupid because nobody actually has any information to rely on. I don't mean I need to know that soandso is power level 73 versus 85, but there's really little to actually compare anybody in HXH that isn't based on wild guesses.

 

[Demonspeed]

Probably fake. Hisoka can't beat Pitou.

 

[Phantron]

Manipulators and Conjurers have never been considered as weak to begin with, they have less raw power than Enhancers but they make up for it with other advantages. All types have strengths and weaknesses. Chrollo is able to do all of this due to his Specialization Hatsu, the others would not be able to combine abilities.

Conjurers/Manipulators stand no chance against Enhancers except for plot reasons. As can be seen in Chrollo's fight, even if you have a power like Black Voice you have to magically abandon using it at some point because that's simply way too overpowered. We're talking about a guy who can wound Silva in the middle of a 1on2, even though Zeno outclasses him severely in raw stats, and Silva is likely even stronger than Zeno. Based on the current Hisoka vs Chrollo fight we can be pretty sure that Hisoka obviously do not outclass Chrollo in raw stats significantly, certainly not to the degree Zeno outclassed him if at all. So why is it that Chrollo can wound Silva in the middle of a 1on2 (and that's about all the opening you need to get a move like Black Voice off) but never found an opening to use Black Voice on Hisoka? Because it would be dumb to actually win like this. But if you're not allowed to use a power like Black Voice for the instant win, how can you possibly beat an Enhancer at their own game? It's flat out stated that enhancing your body is the most effective way to improve your stats. There's no round about way via other schools that'd make you more powerful compared to just enhancing yourself at 100%. If you have conditions then the Enhancer can have conditions too.

Note that Shalunark and Chrollo both assumed Chain Jail was something like 'chains that paralyzes/forces asleep on contact' and you don't even need very strict conditions to it (certainly they didn't think it would require risking your life). Well, how do you fight 'chains that paralyze/forces asleep you on contact'? That might as well say 'chains that instantly kill you on contact' given there's seemingly no paralysis/sleeping resistance in the world of HXH. But you're never allowed to actually do stuff like that in HXH. Heck, you're not even allowed to pull out an electric whip like the guy on the wheelchair wayback, and Chrollo famously lost his poison knife of instant kill awesomeness after the fight against Zeno and Silva (that's a weapon that can instant kill literally anybody except the Zoldycks).
Conjurers/Manipulators basically have to fight as if they're a wannabe Enhancer and then they lose terribly because they're only wannabe Enhancers, unless for plot reasons they remembered that they are allowed to use stuff that bypasses their physical disadvantage, but this is rare because even as unorthodox as HXH is, you're simply not going to see someone conjure some paralyzing chains and instant kill his opponent.

 

[Demonspeed]

How is Zeno outclassing him significantly in raw stats? Chrollo wounding Silva is not due to his physical strenght, it's due to his skills, he is silled albeit weaker physically. He injured him with a Benz knife BTW.

Manipulators/Conjurers can beat Enhancers. For a Manipulator all he needs is to get you with his tool and it's over, Shalnark also has his Automatic Mode for pure, raw power.

Hisoka is much more threatening at close range, he at least proved that he is more durable and has more raw power, which are the advantages of Enhancement. He took 4 critical hits and didn't stop moving. Chrollo took two hits and was coughing up blood. Replace Zeno with Hisoka in this fight and Chrollo gets caught by Bungee Gum.

Their theories could work depending on the conditions, it's only assuming the conditions have been fulfilled. Kurapika being able to catch Uvo like that was because of a condition.

 

[Phantron]

How is Zeno outclassing him significantly in raw stats? Chrollo wounding Silva is not due to his physical strenght, it's due to his skills, he is silled albeit weaker physically. He injured him with a Benz knife BTW.

Manipulators/Conjurers can beat Enhancers. For a Manipulator all he needs is to get you with his tool and it's over, Shalnark also has his Automatic Mode for pure, raw power.

Hisoka is much more threatening at close range, he at least proved that he is more durable and has more raw power, which are the advantages of Enhancement. He took 4 critical hits and didn't stop moving. Chrollo took two hits and was coughing up blood. Replace Zeno with Hisoka in this fight and Chrollo gets caught by Bungee Gum.

Their theories could work depending on the conditions, it's only assuming the conditions have been fulfilled. Kurapika being able to catch Uvo like that was because of a condition.

Automatic mode would get crushed by an Enhancer because there's clearly no semblance of intelligence when you're in auto mode. Even a seemingly brute like Ubogin used plenty of tricks in his fight against Kurapika. It'd be ridiculous to assume an automaton with no strategy, even if it's somehow stronger than an Enhancer, would stand a chance against an Enhancer that knows any amount of strategy.

Zeno said he'd win about 90% of the time if they're not fighting to the death and Chrollo did not dispute that. In HXH that means 'use all abilities but nothing super cheesy'. Well, Hisoka sure doesn't have a super cheesy ability (yet), and while he has a physical advantage over Chrollo, I sure don't see how he's supposed to get a 90% win rate because Chrollo really hasn't resorted to anything unusually cheap. There's certainly nothing Chrollo has done so far that even compares to having his poisoned Benz knife that'd be an instant kill unless Hisoka happens to resist a poison that can knock out a whale with 1 microgram or whatever its potency was, and he's still winning this fight fairly comfortably thus far.

Kurapika's chains has conditions that require contact on a selected target while his life is on the line. As has been pointed out by Shalunark, this is already unusually strict. You don't need 'unbreakable Zetsu chains' to beat an Enhancer. All you need is 'normal chains that paralyze on contact', which requires less condition compared to what Chain Jail actually is. Such a move would be unbeatable by anybody in general unless they never get hit by your weapon, and that's like saying no Hatsu is dangerous if you just dodge them all. By the way, even Ubogin knew that Kurapika could've tied him up while he was only at 50% since he said Kurapika will regret not tying him up later, so it doesn't exactly take much of an opening to make a contact with the hypothetical paralyzing chains, and that's all it'd take to win a fight.

There's a martial arts fiction story of a fight between a legendary swordsman with the equivalent of Excalibur against a challenger with a wooden stick, and the guy with the wooden stick won, because had the legendary swordsman used his Excalibur to slice the wooden stick apart that'd be an unacceptable outcome to the reader so he's forced to used very bad moves to avoid accidentally slicing the wooden stick in half. Now obviously this fight is fourth-wall breaking, but it's actually quite illustrative of the plight that Manipulators/Conjurers face. The fourth wall prevents you from beating anyone notable by sticking an antennae in someone or beat someone in one hit with a paralyzing weapon and win, so all Manipulators/Conjurers can do is fight like weak Enhancers. Yet you can't possibly overpower Enhancers by imitating them. When Chrollo speculated how Ubogin lost, he didn't assume the Chain Assassin may have materialized some powerful explosives and, most notably, none of them assumed that you could've conjured/manipulated chains to be so strong that Ubogin can't break it on its strength alone. The fact that they all assume something like paralyze was involved means it is inconceivable to defeat Enhancer at their own game, e.g. make some material so tough they can't break it. Now Kurapika gets away with beating an Enhancer at their own game because he's the main character, has crazy heritage, a totally overpowered ability to boost his stats (Emperor Time), and even then he still has to put his life on the line. That's how much it takes for a Manipulator/Conjurer to beat an Enhancer at their own game.

 

[Mylesime]

It has been stated at numerous occasions that enhancers are fundamentally the best category at fighting. They're the more balanced group, and possess at least 60% of mastery of any given category , while other groups can go as low as 40%.
Of course the plot plays a big role in the way that envents take place, but this can be explained, and it's stil plausible , one of the big strength of this serie.
Nothing in the fight between kururo and hisoka goes against the rules set by togashi.
Kururo took the initiative , using the referee while attacknig simultaneously , at close range hisoka could have used bungee gum , sticking crollo with it in theroy, but in this case we can assume that chrollo was using gyo on his feet so hisoka had to protect himsel accordingly in the first place using gyo (or ko if chrollo was using that skill himself).

Those same principles explain the advantages of the enhancers, and why the other categories need to bypass this inferiority in a direct confrontation and not the other way around.
To stick an antenna with "black voice" you need to bypass your opponent ken, using shu for sure, that's not an easy task facing an enhancer of comparable strength. It's fancy to be able to control someone, but in a direct 1 VS 1 confrontation that's not that useful, for example phinx with his hatsu can also ends the figth as long as he connects one time. When generally enhancers are also more talented physically , thus more quick, fast,etc (in the pnnatom troupe for example, while nobunaga is mediocre, strength wise phinx and uvo are the more powerful, in the rankings at the top many are emitters or transmutters, the two other categories near enhancement.....) we can easily see why conjurer and manipulator avoid the close range fight.
It's very fancy to be able to poison or put asleep your opponent, but in a fight one rock, one big bang attack or one ripper cyclotron (strike that can not be blocked basically by an opponent fo comparable strenght), well you're dead.

 

[XXGenesis]

I personally don't think they are weak. I'm referring to those who do think they are weak in a battle. Or 1 on 1 battle.....*told you so @Demonspeed

The only physically fit Conjurer we've seen are Kite & (Kurapicka) is a special case...& for Manipulators we have Morel who is physically adept; his speed & strentght seems above average..but in terms of fighting skill & martial arts I believe he is flatline average, & not very much a fighter; however he is very adept & ingenious with his hatsu. Then theirs Illumi who is pretty damn strong & fast.......

Aside from these guys Conjurer's & Manipulators. I believe Togashi intended to designed majority of these characters with low physical stats but high skills or troublesome ability.... Which even outs the scale of physically higher offensive/defensive potential against stronger enhancement

Yes Chrollo's specialization is the reason he can apply such a strategy. Still yet, a manipulator could still have a crowd of ppl attack you...(Illumi)

Overall a Conjuer hatsu is supposed to be tricky & powerful...Zeno's reaction to Chrollo pulling out the Fun Fun cloth was "A Conjurer a ability how troublesome, I'll have to be careful".

Hisoka during this fight also mentioned that, Manipulators are also one of the strongest ppl 1 on 1. Cause their control pledge is fulfilled its game over.

 

[Mylesime]

Hisoka had no trouble dealing with the puppets, the dangerous aspect of that assault was that those manipulated corpses are basically kamikazes. Manipulators are indeed lethal if they can control their opponent but generally fulfilling that condition is not an easy task (mandatory drawback. Some have to kiss the target, stick an antenna,etc), but the sheer number of puppet is not that useful in itself (the more puppet you control; one can deduce the less complex and efficient is the control). But of course , conjurers and manipulators can be exceptional, the user is more of a factor than his category.
Although, they have to avoid a direct confrontation, hisoka has clearly shown his superiority in a straight up fight, The crowd, the anouncer's mic', the environnement is playing a huge part in this fight. Needless to remember that chrollo had time to make preparations furthemore.

 

[Phantron]

Tangentially related to this thread, the latest Japanese volume 33 has a ranking of the 5 calamities, Ants, and humans on various guidelines. In particular, in terms of destructive power, we got:

Ants (the whole race) - A
Human (individual) - B to E
Human (nation) - A to C
Ai - A to B
Brion - B, potentially A1
Zobae Disease (an afflicted individual) - C1, potentially A2
Hell Bell - A1
Pup - A2

A1 is more powerful than A2, but it's not clear how A compares to A1 (probably beats A1?)

The overall threat level (e.g. Ants are B here, while Ai is A) of a human individual is C. The overall threat level of a human nation is B+ to A-. The classification for overall threat is:

C: A threat that can be handled by an organized group of self organized individuals.
B: A threat whose solution is known and requires national to international cooperation.
A: A threat whose solution is unknown and requires worldwide cooperation.

Some takeaways I got from this:

Ants have the strongest destructive rating even compared to the five calamities. We probably shouldn't expect anything in the Dark Continent to surpass them in raw power.

No human individual is considered remotely the same level of threat as any of the other entities named above. No individual human's destructive rating can touch the upper limit of the other entities named above. I expect the security that's about to arrive in the arena to totally mop the floor with Chrollo and Hisoka (if he's still alive by then) because they're a group of self organized individuals!

Given the threat level of a human nation, it seems like it's a miracle that humans haven't accidentally destroyed themselves in the world of HXH.