Discussion Is Shanks Rogers equal?

[Fox666]

Shanks is not Roger's equal.
Whitebeard was alive and was said to be the strongest pirate in the world.
No one could become Pirate King because Whitebeard was alive... not Kaido, not Big Mom and not Shanks.

Joker said this himself, he said now that Whitebeard is out of the picture is the only reason anyone can now challenge for the throne.
Roger was equal to Whitebeard if not actually being superior to Whitebeard.

With that said, given that Shanks was never stated as closest to the One Piece or equal to Whitebeard, he's definitely not on Roger's level. Roger and Whitebeard were a cut above the rest. Akainu has pretty much said this, Joker has said this and even Crocodile said Roger and Whitebeard were the reason no one else could be Pirate King as did Chinjao.

We seem to conflate the most recent coolest scene as evidence x character is the strongest.
First it was Luffy's Gear 5th attack against Kaido, then Shanks' attack against Kid, then Garp's punch, then Koby's attack.

There will always be another cool scene, but just because a attack scene is cool or big doesn't mean they're as strong as Roger or Whitebeard who have been stated as the strongest.
Cool scene doesn't mean strongest character, otherwise by that reasoning, Koby's currently as strong as Whitebeard or Roger.

Sure, in terms of fame, Shanks is nothing compared to Roger

But his fame is also not greater than Big Mom, and his feat against Kid was incredible compared to Big Mom

Doesn't a feat that puts another Emperor to shame something only young Whitebeard or Roger could do?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Sure, in terms of fame, Shanks is nothing compared to Roger

But his fame is also not greater than Big Mom, and his feat against Kid was incredible compared to Big Mom

Doesn't a feat that puts another Emperor to shame something only young Whitebeard or Roger could do?

Shanks outperforming Big Mom is not the same as outperforming Roger or Whitebeard for one.

Also, Big Mom and Kaido were fighting multiple Supernova at once and weren't looking to end the fight immediately. They were toying around with the Supernova. Shanks refused to play with his food, he went straight for the kill, so you can't really compare or say Kaido and Big Mom couldn't have done the same. Kid was speed-blitzed and taken by surprise.... Kaido and Big Mom entertained the Supernova and fought with them for fun.

Either way, until a character or the manga or Oda state Shanks is as strong as Roger or Whitebeard, then sure, but he's not. He's competing for the One Piece like everyone else.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

They were toying around with the Supernova. Shanks refused to play with his food, he went straight for the kill, so you can't really compare or say Kaido and Big Mom couldn't have done the same. Kid was speed-blitzed and taken by surprise.... Kaido and Big Mom entertained the Supernova and fought with them for fun.

In Big Mom's case the point is she failed to do that to Kid at any point in the fight leading to her loss. They def toyed around at the start but even when she was series and trying to finish Kid she couldn't take him out for good. Yet Shanks took out a fresh Kid in one attack, which by proxy does put BM to shame. Shanks has enough going for him that he is a contender for that title. He is the Roger of this era, not Luffy. Luffy is the Joyboy who will surpass even Roger. BB is today's Rocks, hence why he and Shanks have had constant beef. And now Coby the Garp of this era is being pulled into enemy of BB.

 

[Franckie]

Shanks is indicated to be weaker than Mihawk in the Vivre cards and databook, so no. Had he not loss his dominant arm, however, it's possible he could have rivaled Roger in power.

 

[WILDCARD 1 7]

Interesting
At this time almost half the votes say that Rogers above Shanks.
But I I found more comments saying he's equal.
And to that 1 guy, I made that a option just for you lol.

As for my opinion, Is still think he a league beneath Roger, Prime Garp and Prime Whitebeard. But he is the top of his league (shared with Mihawk, and Akainu.)

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

In Big Mom's case the point is she failed to do that to Kid at any point in the fight leading to her loss. They def toyed around at the start but even when she was series and trying to finish Kid she couldn't take him out for good. Yet Shanks took out a fresh Kid in one attack, which by proxy does put BM to shame. Shanks has enough going for him that he is a contender for that title. He is the Roger of this era, not Luffy. Luffy is the Joyboy who will surpass even Roger. BB is today's Rocks, hence why he and Shanks have had constant beef. And now Coby the Garp of this era is being pulled into enemy of BB.

I don't think she tried to take him out for good at any point, she seemed to toy around more.
We saw what happened to Luffy when Kaido took him out both the first and second time, nothing of that nature was ever conveyed in Big Mom's fight.
Big Mom comes off more sadistic than intending to finish a fight.
In fact, look at Big Mom fighting off Luffy who was drastically weaker at WCI than at Wano... Big Mom never took out Luffy whereas Kaido in the beginning of Wano took out Luffy in 1 blow.... and we know it's not because Kaido is stronger than Big Mom when both fought for an entire night iirc.

If Kaido could have taken out a powered up version of Luffy at the start of Wano, no reason Big Mom couldn't have done the same at WCI.
Even Bege withstood Big Mom's attacks.

The only time Big Mom has ever looked like really trying to finish off a character was against Ulti, so I can't say she's been put to shame. She and Kaido for the most part toy with their opponents way too much.

The one thing being ignored here is this fact:

• Only Whitebeard has been said to be the only one that could DEFINITELY be Pirate King on a whim despite the presence of Big Mom, Shanks and Kaido.

As soon as Whitebeard died, we're told that anyone else can become Pirate King, so Shanks is definitely not Roger's equal. There have only ever been 2 characters mentioned that could become Pirate King.

Even Shiki said Whitebeard, this is your era as soon as Roger died despite Kaido and Big Mom being around. Even when Shanks became an Emperor, Akainu said only Whitebeard could have been Pirate King.

Feats ultimately don't indicate anything, only statements can because we could argue that Koby's "feat" puts him up there with Shanks because of the share-scale of the attack. Feats don't mean anything at this level, only statements. Koby's feat is no less impressive than any of the incredible attacks we've seen thus far.

In fact, just look at Ace, why didn't he go after Shanks or Kaido in the first place? He wanted to be feared, respected and prove he could surpass his father which required defeating Whitebeard.... why Whitebeard? because Whitebeard was the strongest and only Pirate that could have become Pirate King.
Whitebeard was the benchmark, even Garp called Whitebeard the king of the sea... because he could have become Pirate King if he so wished to do so. He just didn't. He just ruled the sea without obtaining the One Piece.
If you're not at the least said to equal Whitebeard or to have surpassed Whitebeard, there's no way Shanks is Roger's equal.

 

[AldarionTelcontar]

I disagree.

It's like saying that because Sabo used Fire Fist similar to Ace, that Ace and Sabo are equally as strong as the other.
I could very well say that since Lucci used Soru like Koby, that Lucci is as strong as Koby. OR Who's who is as strong as Koby.
2 people using the same technique proves nothing other than they can use the same technique, not that they're equals.

There's only few ways to prove Shanks is Roger's equal:

1. Actual statement from the series that states Shanks is equal to Roger or Whitebeard.
2. Statement that Shanks is the only Pirate since Whitebeard that can be Pirate King which has only ever been said about Whitebeard amongst Emperors.
3. Or, Shanks fighting Roger or an equal to a stalemate in a prolonged battle that's not just a clash or skirmish because almost any character can clash/skirmish with another.... Luffy clashed with Fujitora/Big Mom around the Dressrosa period for example despite being inferior to them.

Uh, I wasn't saying that Shanks is Roger's equal, I was just explaining where the idea came from. So you're preaching to the choir here.

That being said, Shanks is almost certainly the strongest of current emperors. Not sure whether he was stronger than Kaido, but he was definitely well above Big Mom as well.

 

[zetsu banned]

I haven't changed his position in my own tier table yet, but his Divine Departure was like... fucking wild. A missing arm is such a tiny problem in a world where haki exists, and Shanks exemplifies that. Mihawk is a snob about proper dueling, but people take it to mean Shanks is now weaker than him lol

If not "equal" to Roger, then definitely the closest to him when it comes to haki-only fighters.

 

[AldarionTelcontar]

I haven't changed his position in my own tier table yet, but his Divine Departure was like... fucking wild. A missing arm is such a tiny problem in a world where haki exists, and Shanks exemplifies that. Mihawk is a snob about proper dueling, but people take it to mean Shanks is now weaker than him lol

If not "equal" to Roger, then definitely the closest to him when it comes to haki-only fighters.

If you look at it, Shanks used left arm to wield sword:

Which is the same arm he lost.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Uh, I wasn't saying that Shanks is Roger's equal, I was just explaining where the idea came from. So you're preaching to the choir here.

That being said, Shanks is almost certainly the strongest of current emperors. Not sure whether he was stronger than Kaido, but he was definitely well above Big Mom as well.

Regardless, there's no proof Shanks is equal to Roger or the Strongest Emperor.

He was also rivals with Mihawk, yet Mihawk is now the world's strongest swordsman.

And Shanks also got scarred by Blackbeard before he even had a DF. So, calling Shanks the strongest anything is very questionable. More laughable when we compare Shanks who appears to be even inferior to Blackbeard and Mihawk is compared to Roger/Whitebeard who had no equals to them.

 

[AldarionTelcontar]

Regardless, there's no proof Shanks is equal to Roger or the Strongest Emperor.

He was also rivals with Mihawk, yet Mihawk is now the world's strongest swordsman.

And Shanks also got scarred by Blackbeard before he even had a DF. So, calling Shanks the strongest anything is very questionable. More laughable when we compare Shanks who appears to be even inferior to Blackbeard and Mihawk is compared to Roger/Whitebeard who had no equals to them.

We don't know if Mihawk was the world's strongest swordsman back when he fought Shanks. Yet Whitebeard comments that their duels "shook the Grand Line", so he clearly respects both of their strengths.

Why do you think Shanks is inferior to Blackbeard? Blackbeard scarred Shanks, yes - back when Shanks was still an apprentice on Roger's ship. But thinking that is relevant to current Shanks is ludicrous. Shanks will be inferior to EOS Blackbeard, but there is no reason to think he is inferior to current Blackbeard, let alone the pre-timeskip Blackbeard. Quite the opposite, in fact, considering how he became an Emperor without even having a devil fruit.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It is a tad funny that Shanks is the strongest when the opponent he beat is Kid who has hardly done anything impressive.

His attacks didn't do much to Kaido and he did some damage to Big Mom who ultimately got taken out with what looked like a freak accident than Kid and Law being so powerful. Not like either Law or Kid combined knocked Big Mom out, she just fell into a Volcano and took some explosions which seemed to do more impact or rather, led to her defeat.

Big Mom was even going to wait for Kid to finish his attack meaning his attacks weren't that effective and that was Kid's strongest attack. Shanks taking Kid out isn't that big of a deal.

We don't know if Mihawk was the world's strongest swordsman back when he fought Shanks. Yet Whitebeard comments that their duels "shook the Grand Line", so he clearly respects both of their strengths.

Respect still doesn't mean he's the strongest, nonetheless Shanks isn't the WSS.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 28, 2023, Original Post Date: Aug 28, 2023 ---

Why do you think Shanks is inferior to Blackbeard? Blackbeard scarred Shanks, yes - back when Shanks was still an apprentice on Roger's ship

False, pretty sure if you read the Ace novel, it was shortly before he met Luffy.

I don't think he's inferior, never said that, just implying nothing shows Shanks as superior to anyone.

 

[Fox666]

If you look at it, Shanks used left arm to wield sword:

Which is the same arm he lost.

Shanks is holding a sword on each arm there

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I don't think she tried to take him out for good at any point, she seemed to toy around more.
We saw what happened to Luffy when Kaido took him out both the first and second time, nothing of that nature was ever conveyed in Big Mom's fight.
Big Mom comes off more sadistic than intending to finish a fight.
In fact, look at Big Mom fighting off Luffy who was drastically weaker at WCI than at Wano... Big Mom never took out Luffy whereas Kaido in the beginning of Wano took out Luffy in 1 blow.... and we know it's not because Kaido is stronger than Big Mom when both fought for an entire night iirc.

If Kaido could have taken out a powered up version of Luffy at the start of Wano, no reason Big Mom couldn't have done the same at WCI.
Even Bege withstood Big Mom's attacks.

The only time Big Mom has ever looked like really trying to finish off a character was against Ulti, so I can't say she's been put to shame. She and Kaido for the most part toy with their opponents way too much.

Though those are good points the way I see it regarding Big Mom is she either:

• Went all out against Kid & Law and was trying to take them out by the end of the fight and lost the fight due to plot/circumstance
• Went all out against Kid & Law but due to her childish demeanor she did not perform as well as her body would have allowed and lost the fight due to that + plot/circumstance
• Did not go all out against Kid & Law at any point and lost lost the fight due to that + plot/circumstance

I think the second is the most believable based on how Big Mom is portrayed during Wano but the first could also fit. The third option I have a hard time buying since Big Mom on multiple occasions complained about Kid & Law not going down, was shown to put in effort to attack, took hits with lots of pain enough to even sacrifice years of her own life. I can completely say she lost due to plot but to say she wasn't seriously trying to take Kid & Law out in that fight doesn't seem supported by the manga.

The one thing being ignored here is this fact:

• Only Whitebeard has been said to be the only one that could DEFINITELY be Pirate King on a whim despite the presence of Big Mom, Shanks and Kaido.

As soon as Whitebeard died, we're told that anyone else can become Pirate King, so Shanks is definitely not Roger's equal. There have only ever been 2 characters mentioned that could become Pirate King.

Even Shiki said Whitebeard, this is your era as soon as Roger died despite Kaido and Big Mom being around. Even when Shanks became an Emperor, Akainu said only Whitebeard could have been Pirate King.

Feats ultimately don't indicate anything, only statements can because we could argue that Koby's "feat" puts him up there with Shanks because of the share-scale of the attack. Feats don't mean anything at this level, only statements. Koby's feat is no less impressive than any of the incredible attacks we've seen thus far.

In fact, just look at Ace, why didn't he go after Shanks or Kaido in the first place? He wanted to be feared, respected and prove he could surpass his father which required defeating Whitebeard.... why Whitebeard? because Whitebeard was the strongest and only Pirate that could have become Pirate King.
Whitebeard was the benchmark, even Garp called Whitebeard the king of the sea... because he could have become Pirate King if he so wished to do so. He just didn't. He just ruled the sea without obtaining the One Piece.
If you're not at the least said to equal Whitebeard or to have surpassed Whitebeard, there's no way Shanks is Roger's equal.

I think these are all good points. I just don't think this is the direction the main narrative of One Piece is taking and I'm just betting that Oda will make Shanks the Roger of this era. You might as well call this a crazy theory but lately I think Oda is setting Shanks up to be Luffy's final obstacle to claim One Piece.

 

[AldarionTelcontar]

Shanks is holding a sword on each arm there

I thought that as well originally, but he is not holding a sword in the right arm there, he is holding a scabbard.

 

[Fox666]

I thought that as well originally, but he is not holding a sword in the right arm there, he is holding a scabbard.

You are right

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Though those are good points the way I see it regarding Big Mom is she either:

• Went all out against Kid & Law and was trying to take them out by the end of the fight and lost the fight due to plot/circumstance
• Went all out against Kid & Law but due to her childish demeanor she did not perform as well as her body would have allowed and lost the fight due to that + plot/circumstance
• Did not go all out against Kid & Law at any point and lost lost the fight due to that + plot/circumstance

I think the second is the most believable based on how Big Mom is portrayed during Wano but the first could also fit. The third option I have a hard time buying since Big Mom on multiple occasions complained about Kid & Law not going down, was shown to put in effort to attack, took hits with lots of pain enough to even sacrifice years of her own life. I can completely say she lost due to plot but to say she wasn't seriously trying to take Kid & Law out in that fight doesn't seem supported by the manga.

Not saying she wasn't trying, but there's a lax approach to fights.

• Shanks is really the only Emperor so far who seems quick to anger and more so in context.

More so, look at the circumstances too where Kid was using his most powerful attack and Shanks saw that he had to end that fight there and then because his comrades would die.
The level of urgency is critically different to how Big Mom and Kaido pretty much always viewed the supernova literally throughout the battle.

Also, look at Kaido's strongest attacks:

• When Luffy died whilst in G4, we could have argued that was Kaido's strongest attack at that point, yet he only used what was needed for Gear 4th.
• He used a completely different level of attack against Luffy in Gear 5.

If Kaido had used his final attacks for G4 or G5 earlier on in the fight, the Supernova would all be dead for sure. Irony is we never really saw Big Mom's strongest attack because she was pretty much tanking and she got taken out at a moment where she never saw it coming - she fell into a hole pretty much and couldn't call her Homies.

The Emperors are seemingly so confident the output they give is only just slightly above equal proportion to the threat.

I think if Big Mom or Kaido wanted to defeat the Supernova at any point prior to their defeats, they would have. They just prolonged the battle unnecessarily.

Comparisons taken out of what is not in context to me... could have me state that since Shanks didn't defeat Kaido pre-skip when he tried to go to Marineford.... Luffy is therefore superior to Shanks since he defeated an opponent Shanks didn't.
I wouldn't believe that for one second, I think it's just circumstances that differ, Shanks just wanted to stop Kaido's advances as opposed to defeating him like Luffy who needed to do so.

And in regard to Big Mom against Kid/Law, she underestimated them, she didn't see them as that much of a threat like Shanks did and we saw Kid's strongest attack didn't have that much of an impact because she literally told Kid that once his strongest attacked stopped tickling (understatement ofc) her as all it really did was pin her down, they either give 50 years of their life or pretty much die.... this was in chapter 1040. Others watching said the attack wasn't affecting her much.
Only reason they won was the hole, the explosion and the volcano.
Big Mom really didn't view them as much of a threat as Shanks did who knew he had to take him out there due to the danger that posed to his crew... Big Mom never really had an instance where she used her strongest attack or tried to end the fight there and then.

No Emperor is outstanding, and if Oda really wants to make out Shanks as in league of his own, he would say he was the closest to the throne, he'd say he is the strongest Emperor, his rivalry with Mihawk wouldn't question his hierarchy in strength which it does, and Blackbeard would not have scarred him since scars in One Piece when they ACHE specifically imply they were defeated if you look at every character in series who has mentioned a scar they had that ached.
There's too many question marks for Shanks to be remotely claimed as the strongest.

I think he may be Luffy's strongest opponent, but I personally don't think he's Roger's equal until it's specifically stated. Roger stood above all and even stood above Whitebeard, no one even stood in league with Whitebeard while he was alive which for me completely dismisses Shanks' standing.

 

[KilgoreTully]

The different measures of "equal" have to be addressed, here. Are we talking raw strength, power tier rankings, living up to pirately ideals, or narratively?

Clearly the impulse is to make this a tier ranking issue. That's fine, but not my cup of tea. It's the same as debating things like Lebron vs. Prime Jordan, only using a fantasy world where every outcome is designed by an author to serve the story. We can do all the math and logic we want, but when push comes to shove, Oda is building the plot he wants, not divining a story based on some secret master power tier board he has under lock and key.

To have any definitive power-based answer, we'd need some Marvel cosmic god-esque figure to pluck both out of the timeline in their prime and plunk them in some Battle World scenario. Does Roger's disease get cured? Does Shanks get his arm back? Are their minds wiped so they don't hold back? Is there a relevant fight between crews? Can the fighters be healed and the fight replayed/simulated a hundred times to determine if Shanks could win 10%, 23%, or 49% of the time? Would it have to be exactly 50% to say they're true "equals"? I'm sure many here would looooove something like this, but to me it just veers way off the point of the whole story.

Narratively, I do think they are supposed to be equals, or at the very least Shanks is intended to be a stand-in because Roger had to die to kickstart the story, but Luffy is going to have to beat someone to take the Pirate King title. HP made a nice comparison in bringing up Ace and Sabo. We can compare their relative strength all we want, but in the end Oda is just having his cake and eating it too by dramatically killing off Luffy's fire-using older brother figure and grafting in another fire-using older brother figure. They are narratively transitive, and in a story where power is important, there is going to be some power equivalence.

Shanks has basically done everything Roger would have done if he were still alive. Let's say Roger wasn't dying and, after finding the One Piece and deciding it wasn't for him, dramatically retired to make room for the next generation. He'd be partying with his crew, not starting unnecessary fights, generally keeping a low profile, and not outshining or cutting short promising rookies. If he felt the need to occasionally intervene, he'd be showing up, alone like a boss, to check on Whitebeard, ending a war he didn't like with sheer force of will, intimidating out-of-line admirals, and occasionally, when he had to, quickly smacking down upstarts dumb enough to target him just for cred.

Will of D, the straw hat, the nature of devil fruits: this story is rife with [sometimes literal] spiritual succession. Shanks is absolutely the stand-in for Roger, and will be exactly as strong as he needs to be in that role.

One-on-one Battle World match-up? Yeah, probably Roger. Being the "best" or most ideal pirate captain of a given era? They have equally checked off that box, and it seems to be the thing Oda prioritizes.

 

[anime4expert]

It has been confirmed over and over by Oda himself, that Shanks > Roger. First of all, Roger wasn't as strong as many might believe. He couldn't have beaten the Rocks Pirates without the help of Garp, Shanks and co. Second, Roger is the father of Ace. Ace is far weaker than Shanks. Logically, Roger cannot be as strong as Shanks either. Finally, Roger never had the title of being the strongest swordman in the world, despite using a sword. Mihawk is far stronger than Shanks will ever be. Thus: Even young Mihawk was already stronger than Roger. I think, the hype around Roger needs calm down.

 

[zetsu banned]

Welcome to MH.

Second, Roger is the father of Ace. Ace is far weaker than Shanks. Logically, Roger cannot be as strong as Shanks either.

Also, this is bananas logic lol