Fantasy Jellal vs Gray

Who wins?


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Sinister Spirit

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Oh please, you know you're reaching at this point. We SEE that END transformation was slowly taking place. This proves END has a demon form. And the transformation taking place implies that he was transforming to END slowly, instead of it already having taken place and END waiting for opportunity to use later

6-7 tiers above = you get utterly stomped in combat, not stalemate. Hell, being just a tier above itself means you're having difficulty to exchange blows, match combat speed, physical strength etc. That's why we say "x is a tier above y". Because they're too far off that x can barely hold, and would swiftly be defeated.
Gray only needed a clean blow against Mard, and it took him 3 full chapters and a DF Natsu distracting him to do it.
While Gray was exchanging clean blows with Natsu all along. So why was Natsu not one shotted, especially if the gap was lesser than against Mard (which you now admit)? Obviously, Slayer advantage wasn't a big player here
We saw END had demonic limbs, but we didn't see any GRADUAL change (ex: if it had started with one hand but gradually became two full arms THROUGHOUT the fight, I would've believed he was slowly transforming) and there's demons such as Kyoka who do have demonic parts but still look mostly human EVEN in their full Etherious form, so MAYBE END is one of them, we don't know.

Yeah you have a point about END not going down as easily as Mard, but in that case I'm more tempted to believe the gap between Gray and END was even bigger than with Mard (at least in magical stats, not physical ones). Because now that I think about it, the only reason Gray needed Natsu's help was because Mard was too FAST for him, but his defense was still weak against the Devil Slayer advantage (despite tanking DF attacks), and his offense was just lame (if we forget Memento Mori, everyone tanked or dodged Mard's attacks for hours without even needing a Slayer advantage). Had Mard's speed been the same as Gray's, Gray would've hardstomped him even without Natsu's help, regardless of Mard being far superior in raw power.

And END seems to be the opposite: His speed and other physical stats WERE close to Gray's so he couldn't dodge much, yet his power level was so huge that unlike Mard, he could at least stalemate Gray's Slayer advantage. I mean if END could resist timestop, I can see his magical resistance tanking Devil Slaying attacks better than Mard, even if Gray was stronger in Alvalez than in Tartaros.
 
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Ramen

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Both are fodder
 

Hexbend

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Jellal stomps
 

LaGOAT

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Jellal mid-high diff
 

grey matter

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We saw END had demonic limbs, but we didn't see any GRADUAL change (ex: if it had started with one hand but gradually became two full arms THROUGHOUT the fight, I would've believed he was slowly transforming) and there's demons such as Kyoka who do have demonic parts but still look mostly human EVEN in their full Etherious form, so MAYBE END is one of them, we don't know.

Yeah you have a point about END not going down as easily as Mard, but in that case I'm more tempted to believe the gap between Gray and END was even bigger than with Mard (at least in magical stats, not physical ones). Because now that I think about it, the only reason Gray needed Natsu's help was because Mard was too FAST for him, but his defense was still weak against the Devil Slayer advantage (despite tanking DF attacks), and his offense was just lame (if we forget Memento Mori, everyone tanked or dodged Mard's attacks for hours without even needing a Slayer advantage). Had Mard's speed been the same as Gray's, Gray would've hardstomped him even without Natsu's help, regardless of Mard being far superior in raw power.

And END seems to be the opposite: His speed and other physical stats WERE close to Gray's so he couldn't dodge much, yet his power level was so huge that unlike Mard, he could at least stalemate Gray's Slayer advantage. I mean if END could resist timestop, I can see his magical resistance tanking Devil Slaying attacks better than Mard, even if Gray was stronger in Alvalez than in Tartaros.
Natsu had normal teeth in beginning, towards the end, he had demonic (pointed) teeth.
Well, Kyouka has a demon (etherious) form as well.

If you honestly believe that the gap between END and Gray was higher than between Mard and Gray, idk what to say lol. Mard wasn't just too fast for him, he was that much stronger as well. He no diff'd LFD Natsu (who should be DeS Gray tier) along with twin dragons, in his BASE.
Mard's offence wasn't lame either. He uses thorns and plants, which are fragile, but very lethal if connects. Mard's thorns, in his base, was able to pierce through CSK like hot knife through butter. It's just that, whenever Mard was about to connect his attacks (which would basically end the fight), someone would come in and interrupt the attack (when he was about to connect to Natsu, twin dragons broke the thorns; when Mard was about to connect to Natsu & twin dragons, Gray showed up and froze the thorns). Also, Mard didn't use thorns the same way he used it against CSK (omnidirectional AOE thorn from below ground), which is CIS/plot armour.
DF Natsu, who's >>>> DeS Gray managed to do nothing to etherious Mard. Now, do you think Gray would be exchanging blows with DF Natsu? Not a chance, if DF Natsu manages to connect blows, that would be the end of Gray. But Gray did manage to exchange countless number of blows with END.

Yes, if Gray had combat speed comparable to Mard, he would've stomped. So what? Mard's vastly superior combat speed again shows that he was tiers above Gray.

If END is even more superior to Gray than Mard was, then how come Gray and Natsu basically stalemated in combat? They were about equal in attack power, physical strength and combat speed.
I belive you're saying END is >>>> DeS Gray in magic power, but is around Gray tier in every other stat. Why should I believe that? END is a combat mage/demon, why should his stats have such high disproportionality? Also, MP doesn't translate to durability either, durability is a physical stat, which you admit he is in Gray's tier.

END resist timestop, so what? It just means he's much stronger than Dimaria. I have no doubt that other top tier "good guys" can do the same.
 

Sinister Spirit

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Natsu had normal teeth in beginning, towards the end, he had demonic (pointed) teeth.
Well, Kyouka has a demon (etherious) form as well.

If you honestly believe that the gap between END and Gray was higher than between Mard and Gray, idk what to say lol. Mard wasn't just too fast for him, he was that much stronger as well. He no diff'd LFD Natsu (who should be DeS Gray tier) along with twin dragons, in his BASE.
Mard's offence wasn't lame either. He uses thorns and plants, which are fragile, but very lethal if connects. Mard's thorns, in his base, was able to pierce through CSK like hot knife through butter. It's just that, whenever Mard was about to connect his attacks (which would basically end the fight), someone would come in and interrupt the attack (when he was about to connect to Natsu, twin dragons broke the thorns; when Mard was about to connect to Natsu & twin dragons, Gray showed up and froze the thorns). Also, Mard didn't use thorns the same way he used it against CSK (omnidirectional AOE thorn from below ground), which is CIS/plot armour.
DF Natsu, who's >>>> DeS Gray managed to do nothing to etherious Mard. Now, do you think Gray would be exchanging blows with DF Natsu? Not a chance, if DF Natsu manages to connect blows, that would be the end of Gray. But Gray did manage to exchange countless number of blows with END.

Yes, if Gray had combat speed comparable to Mard, he would've stomped. So what? Mard's vastly superior combat speed again shows that he was tiers above Gray.

If END is even more superior to Gray than Mard was, then how come Gray and Natsu basically stalemated in combat? They were about equal in attack power, physical strength and combat speed.
I belive you're saying END is >>>> DeS Gray in magic power, but is around Gray tier in every other stat. Why should I believe that? END is a combat mage/demon, why should his stats have such high disproportionality? Also, MP doesn't translate to durability either, durability is a physical stat, which you admit he is in Gray's tier.

END resist timestop, so what? It just means he's much stronger than Dimaria. I have no doubt that other top tier "good guys" can do the same.
Natsu could already grow pointed teeth in DF long before that, yet he wasn't slowly turning into a "fully draconic form", plus pointed teeth can also be a detail just to show how angry the character is, even if they're fully human. It'll take more than that to convince me.
That's my point, even Kyoka's Etherious Form looks mostly human, so how can we be sure END's doesn't?

The difference with CSK is that he was a huge a slow target, so Mard could allow himself to make "spikes" with his Thorns instead of the "whip-like" Thorns he used on others (which are more accurate since they can twist in any direction).
He DID use some AOE Thorns against Natsu, Sting and Rogue, yet they tanked it, he used explosive flowers and a big unnamed explosion, yet they tanked it, and I'm pretty sure even if his giant flower had swallowed Natsu, Natsu could've burned it from the inside and freed himself. If we forget Memento Mori, Mard never showed any offensive power to truly overwhelm foes of Natsu's level, they handled his attacks pretty well even once he was in Etherious form. Mard was just handling theirs even better, so they would've eventually crumbled first, after like several hours.
Mard's fighting abilities seem to reflect his personality: He only sees huge immortal beings as potential threats, so his attacks are more effective against big targets. He thinks humans are weak insects, so against small and fast targets, his attacks can only slowly beat them down, and he thinks that's all he needs since he's extremely fast and durable. He wishes to kill Zeref, so he created Memento Mori for that purpose (which explains its small range and area of effect compared to spells such as Fairy Law, it was meant for ONE human-sized target, not for giants or armies). Etc.
In fact, the only reason Mard was "defeating" DF Natsu wasn't even because he was overwhelming him with powerful attacks, but because he was so durable Natsu had time to exhaust himself. It literally takes more time for Mard to defeat his foes with attacks than it takes them to run out of energy!

Yes, DF Natsu could've stomped DeS Gray BECAUSE Gray wouldn't have had any Slayer advantage like he had with Mard or END. If he did, HE would stomp DF Natsu.
And there's a difference between PHYSICAL durability and MAGICAL resistance, I mean even if for instance your flesh is as hard as dragon scales, you won't necessarily be immuned to things like mind-control or timestop or etc. Same for the opposite, Midnight may have a high resistance to magic thanks to his Reflector, but his physical body is far from durable. I do think END's physical durability rivals Gray's, but his magical resistance must be (almost) as good as Acnologia's in order to break free of time magic and tank Slayer magic of his own type like Acno did.

I don't know why END's skills would be disproportionate, but there's a lot of things I found WAY more illogical in Alvalez so I'm willing to accept it. Maybe Zeref only focused on END's magic powers because physical strength can't kill an immortal like him... I don't know, but for me, it still makes more sense than Gray struggling against Invel BUT being close to END regardless of the Slayer advantage, while END hardstomped Dimaria (who's probably close to Invel). Plus it'd mean Gray is also powerful enough to bypass Zeref's immortality and kill him just like END can, something apparently even August and Irene aren't powerful enough to do.
 
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Lucy>Wendy&Elfman

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Jella mid/high-diff.
 
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Garmadooon

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2 - No, as I said : For me, Gray beating Mirajane + Elfman is a stronger feat than Natsu beating Gajeel as a rematch. So I put Mirajane + Elfman > IDS Gajeel. But it is only my opinion.
:yodawg :yodawg
 

Darklord#10

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I agree. This is why I said Gray is above Mirajane and Elfman currently. He won his fight vs a team up, with Elfman having grown up his stats (see Leo's reactions). As well as he fought and won his rematch vs Raijinshou who blocked his Ice Magic access.

For me, his victories are not discredits but feats, as they are strong opponents. For me, beating Mirajane + Elfman is a stronger feat than Natsu beating Gajeel as a rematch.
:yodawg I guess you missed where cana pointed out that the opponents was beat up
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I'm talking about Skullion. You said he hasn't had a chance to showcase his "true power" which isn't true.



Why wouldn't he? He used DeS on weaker opponents in the past. Natsu used LFD instead and even admitted to holding back.
Natsu was even holding back against aldoron :datass
 

Garmadooon

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Reading back the old comments of Gray low diffing Jelly is pretty funny considering their current feats. :fan Gray never surpassed Jellal and it will probably never happen.

Jellal neg diff.
 

sree

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These comments come from his feats vs End and Mard. But Mashima rarely showed Gray's powers against wizards other than Ice users or demons. So Im not surprised about surpassing. Though Mashima can very well change that dynamics if he want.

OT: Jellal wins handily
 
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