Character Kaji Kazena

[Hardy]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

I don't think Oni is an a**hole. From what we've seen, he play normal tennis, but is just way too powerful for his opponent, and so that damage them. Byoudonin and Tokugawa both shot a ball that can break wall and shake up organ into someone stomach. That's far worse, especially in Byoudonin case, since we actually smash that into Ryoma. Tokugawa was pretty much returning the favor during an official tennis match that Byoudonin knows he is serving AND as a revenge for hitting him last night. And since then Tokugawa never aim another shot like that.

Oni plays "normal tennis"?
Please be more detailed.
We're so far into this series that its pretty hard to label any type of tennis as "normal".

Byoudouin's tennis is made to injure but then again, so is the tennis style of Date, Duke, Ishida, Kawamura. None of these guys are necessarily bad people.
Oni's tennis is really violent. He said "Who do you think you can kill with that Jack Knife?" to Momoshiro.
I think this is crystal clear evidence that Oni's tennis has something to do with violence.

Oni knew he was above Kaji. The asshole didn't have to go and wreck his career.

I wouldn't go as far as Ken and say that Oni just plays normal tennis. However, it's hard to determine if he was an asshole (lol) or not.

As far as we know, Oni was the N 5 in the camp only with his stats and BJK. He had sealed Kijin. We also know that Kaji improved a lot in his last trip and that he had developed a new technique. With all that in mind, they were prolly playing equally (even before Kaji had the chance to use his new move) and Oni just said F it and used Kijin (and with that, he injured Kaji). I doubt he left Kaji in a semi-coma on porpuse, lol.

That being said, his attitude against Momo wasn't the best at all, but I dunno. It's the same dude that disguised himself as Santa and abandoned his goal of becoming the N 1 in order to help another dude ( Tokugawa you scrub ), it's hard to just call him an asshole.

 

[-Ken-]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

Oni plays "normal tennis"?
Please be more detailed.
We're so far into this series that its pretty hard to label any type of tennis as "normal".

Byoudouin's tennis is made to injure but then again, so is the tennis style of Date, Duke, Ishida, Kawamura. None of these guys are necessarily bad people.
Oni's tennis is really violent. He said "Who do you think you can kill with that Jack Knife?" to Momoshiro.
I think this is crystal clear evidence that Oni's tennis has something to do with violence.

Oni knew he was above Kaji. The asshole didn't have to go and wreck his career.

Byoudonin is bad because he shot a ball that break the wall and destroy internal at a boy 5 years younger than him outside the match. And what does Echizen do to him at that point, really? A shot like that can probably even kill if it it hit a normal person. He also beat up a guy while not allowing him to give up (the manga state this, regardless of what you say).

Oni is ok because Kaji didn't give up and unless he doesn't allow Kaji to give up like Togukawa (which we don't know, but judging from his match with Kintarou there is nothing in the manga that suggest he doesn't give time for Kaji to give up.), Kaji have time to give up and is the one choose not to do it. And he do all of it inside the match. Unless Kaji go out with simply the 1st ball, which I kinda doubt.

 

[Hardy]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

It's said that Oni went Kijin pretty early in his match against Kaji, as the latter didn't have a chance to use his new move. Just throwing some info.

 

[Ninomiya]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

Oni is ok because Kaji didn't give up and unless he doesn't allow Kaji to give up like Togukawa (which we don't know, but judging from his match with Kintarou there is nothing in the manga that suggest he doesn't give time for Kaji to give up.), Kaji have time to give up and is the one choose not to do it. And he do all of it inside the match. Unless Kaji go out with simply the 1st ball, which I kinda doubt.

I'm sorry but this is sounding biased now.
Where was it ever stated that Oni gave Kaji time to give up?
From what we saw, he brought out Kijin unexpectedly and looking at Kaji battered on the ground its pretty clear that the match probably didn't even finish properly.

Never mind "time to give up", Oni made it so that Kaji couldn't play tennis properly anymore.

 

[Hardy]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

Oni is ok because Kaji didn't give up and unless he doesn't allow Kaji to give up like Togukawa (which we don't know, but judging from his match with Kintarou there is nothing in the manga that suggest he doesn't give time for Kaji to give up.), Kaji have time to give up and is the one choose not to do it. And he do all of it inside the match. Unless Kaji go out with simply the 1st ball, which I kinda doubt.

As I said, it's known that Kaji got destroyed super early in the match

Spoiler

From the fanbook:

Speed - 7: He has absolute faith in his speed, but when faced with the presence of Oni, he had no ability to answer him because he could not see through to his real level.

Technique - 5: He has a vast array of skills in his repertoire. While on the expedition, it seems like he worked out a new technique too. However, he was defeated before ever being able to show it.

So I guess that, as I said, Oni just came in, activated Kijin early and out of nowhere, and left Kaji injured on the floor.

In fact, if we use what the manga says, Oni was surely an asshole to Kaji. He didn't seem to hit any dangerous shots towards Kintarou nor aim at him, so he certainly did something different to Kaji in order to injure him.

 

[-Ken-]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

Simply put, from what it sounds like to you, Kaji last 1 ball while Kintarou last 2 set. If a kid 5 years younger can last 2 set, I think it's reasonable of Oni to assume Kaji won't be dead with a ball.

Sounds like Kaji's body is just way too weak?

There is no visible wound on Kaji body, unless Kishin have a side effect of blasting off internal organ in random direction that's not mention in the manga.

And it's understandable even if Kaji doesn't show off a new tech. Kaji is not good enough to return Kishin, so he can't use his new technique at all. Every ball Oni hit, Kaji is dead and can't return it. Unless Kaji new technique work on his serve they can play a full match that Kaji doesn't show off his tech.

So it's either Kaji body is weaker than a kid 1st of MS, and so Kishin ball should be take in effect that it will destroy anybody below 5th place of 1st stringer in 1 shot (which is actually majority of the players), or they play a full match and Kaji is too dumb to give up, which judging from

because he could not see through to his real level.

this, seems to be the case.

 

[Hardy]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

Kaji has as much power and stamina as Kintarou, so I don't think that body endurance is a factor here.

Kaji's body isn't even visible We DO know that he's injured and might not even play tennis again, so Oni clearly did something to him in just 1 point that he didn't do to Tooyama in 2 sets.

 

[-Ken-]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

Kaji has as much power and stamina as Kintarou, so I don't think that body endurance is a factor here.

Kaji's body isn't even visible We DO know that he's injured and might not even play tennis again, so Oni clearly did something to him in just 1 point that he didn't do to Tooyama in 2 sets.

So Oni have more tech? Yay, he's even stronger now!

I really think Kaji just can't use his new tech because Kishin is too much for him and so he just can't use a tech when he can't even hit the ball back.

EDIT: Oh yes, with an exception of Black Hole. i don't think Kaji can use that though.

If anything Kaji's power and stamina being the same as Kintarou should be proof that they plays out a full match, judging from we knows so far.

 

[Brandnewkid]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

Lol, you guys are overthinking Kaji's character. He's literally a placeholder for Oni to come back and look cooler / more important. Nobody's thinking about him. Not even the G10.

 

[-Ken-]

Yeah no, because there is nothing in Oni's attitude that suggest he have that crazy attitude like Byoudonin that Byoudonin shows when he was beating up Tokugawa (And regardless of Tokugawa attitude, Byoudonin's attitude is what count.). It's just that simple. And Kaji doesn't have much wound on his body if at all, suggesting that Oni doesn't shoot the shot directly at the body and Kaji just dies because he's a crappy players who doesn't know his limit. Since he's not aiming at the body, there is nothing that suggest Oni did it on purpose at all. If there is, just show it because I must had miss it. It's really that simple, and I've been waiting for evidence but none seems to turn up. Take Kawamura vs Gin. Gin was winning the entire time and choose to go up in power instead of waiting for Kawamura to catch up to it. And in that match, Kawamura was pretty much risking his tennis career. Gin accept that and doesn't go easy on him. Because their pride is on the line, and that's the same thing here with Oni.

Byoudonin, on the other hand, definitely do what he does on purpose, and also traumatized couples of players aboard. Due to the players that he play due to his position, they all have been really strong and probably much better than Kaji. The difference between Byoudonin and Oni and Gin, Oni and Gin are very nice/honorable person outside the match. They also doesn't show an attitude that doesn't allow their opponent to quit the match. Whereas Byoudonin shows that attitude and also say die and shot a fatal shot at a boy who is a stranger and 5 years younger than him. And please try to justify all actions instead of just one or two. As far as I remember, there's nothing in the manga that suggest Oni end Kaji career on purpose.

 

[Hardy]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

You do realise that you're making a circular argument? Like, everything you're saying atm (that is on topic) has already been replied before.

Yeah no, because there is nothing in Oni's attitude that suggest he have that crazy attitude like Byoudonin

Oni's tennis is really violent. He said "Who do you think you can kill with that Jack Knife?" to Momoshiro.

And Kaji doesn't have much wound on his body if at all, suggesting that Oni doesn't shoot the shot directly at the body and Kaji just dies because he's a crappy players who doesn't know his limit. Since he's not aiming at the body, there is nothing that suggest Oni did it on purpose at all. If there is, just show it because I must had miss it. It's really that simple, and I've been waiting for evidence but none seems to turn up.

Kaji has as much power and stamina as Kintarou, so I don't think that body endurance is a factor here.

Kaji's body isn't even visible

As far as I remember, there's nothing in the manga that suggest Oni end Kaji career on purpose.

We DO know that he's injured and might not even play tennis again, so Oni clearly did something to him in just 1 point that he didn't do to Tooyama in 2 sets.

---------- Post added at 10:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 PM ----------

I mean, it's super easy to evaluate Oni's character considering how he helped his village and Tokugawa, and it's even easier to just ignore Kaji's existence (he was in like... 6 panels?), but if you really think about it there's nothing that can be said about Oni NOT injuring Kaji on porpuse, and a lot in favour of it.

---------- Post added at 10:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------

Also, no one can say that Kaji is a crappy player. I believe you were in favour of Ohmagari possibly beating Sanada because he COULD eventually get used to the Black Aura, right?

Well, Kaji was better than Ohmagari, even before getting a stat boost in the trip and creating a new special move. He had, overall, one of the best stats in the entire camp. That doesn't sound ¨crappy¨ does it? (in fact, there are less than 10 people better than him in the entire camp).

---------- Post added at 10:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------

Atobe did underestimate Tezuka but after seeing him play with such passion, Atobe respected him. They did have a fairly close match.

And Atobe won

Another more recent example is Byoudoin vs Tokugawa, amirite?

 

[-Ken-]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

Yeah, the reason I'm makng the circular argument is simply because I'm just askin for evidence, and that evidence just... isn't there? Or maybe it's because the evidence simply doesn't exist in the first place? It's just simple about that. How about showing some evidence already so I can stop repeating the obvious?

Shows me those panel in favor of Oni injuring Kaji to the point where he can't play tennis anymore on purpose then, since you do tell me those exist. Go go go.

I also show a fair bit with Byoudonin, so I already clearly show evidence in that regard.

 

[Hardy]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

You're not even reading the arguments other people are making, so what's even the point? You're being like ¨fu, my opinion is better¨. When you want some things are easy to assume, when other people want to assume something you ask for panels in the manga.

There's an explanation behind it that isn't in the manga, but it's really easy to assume it. And I've already said it. Kaji's stats are as good as Kintarou's (and even better). Oni (even in Kijin) never aimed and Kintarou, so the latter never got injured nor was close to. They played for 2 sets. Kaji played a couple of points against Oni and got injured... there isn't a lot to think there to know wtf happenned in that match.

 

[-Ken-]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

And of course, there are those pages you talk about that shows how much of a santa Oni is when he helped many MS and Togukawa improve and how he help the children. Byoudonin give out presents by traumatizing many players oversea, yay.

Really, go on, I'm waiting for the evidence, ever since... couple of pages back, and there isn't any. I don't see any. I don't remember any. I look more to me like evidence perhaps just doesn't exist and it's just Oni's hater?

---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 PM ----------

Kaji didn't have visible injury either. Why do you assume Oni aim shot at Kaji? I don't recall anything that say Kaji match is only couple of points. That's an assumption. How can Kaji show any move when he can't even return Kishin?

 

[Hardy]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

Byodoin doesn't respect anyone because he knows he's boss. He did underestimate Oni and got his ass kicked in 1st year of high school.

I'm not talking about that match.

@ Hardy: Well Byodoin acknowledged that Tokugawa became stronger than he imagined - so not fully underestimating him.

That was after the 1st set / after the match ended. That's not an ¨estimation¨.

Byoudouin did underestimate Tokugawa until the latter sent him flying (which was super early, but doesn't change the fact that he indeed underestimated Tokugawa).

Of course, the rule you're mentioning makes some sense in a sports manga. The underdogs (usually the main characters) will get underestimated and will end up winning, but there are a lot of exceptions to it.

---------- Post added at 12:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 AM ----------

And of course, there are those pages you talk about that shows how much of a santa Oni is when he helped many MS and Togukawa improve and how he help the children. Byoudonin give out presents by traumatizing many players oversea, yay.

Really, go on, I'm waiting for the evidence, ever since... couple of pages back, and there isn't any. I don't see any. I don't remember any. I look more to me like evidence perhaps just doesn't exist and it's just Oni's hater?

---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 PM ----------

Kaji didn't have visible injury either. Why do you assume Oni aim shot at Kaji? I don't recall anything that say Kaji match is only couple of points. That's an assumption. How can Kaji show any move when he can't even return Kishin?

Who the hell is defending Byoudouin? Why do you even name him? The fact that Byoudouin is a bigger asshole doesn't change the fact that Oni was one to Kaji himself. I doubt Oni was disguised as Santa when he injured Kaji.

I JUST SAID KAJI'S BODY ISN'T VISIBLE FOR THE 2ND TIME. How can you say ¨his body has no injures¨ when it's not even seen but we KNOW HE'S FREAKING INJURED AND HE MAY NOT PLAY AGAIN.

And I already showed something that proves that Kaji vs Oni didn't last long.

Spoiler

From the fanbook:

Speed - 7: He has absolute faith in his speed, but when faced with the presence of Oni, he had no ability to answer him because he could not see through to his real level.

Technique - 5: He has a vast array of skills in his repertoire. While on the expedition, it seems like he worked out a new technique too. However, he was defeated before ever being able to show it.

And I already gave an explanation to why it's simple to assume that Oni aimed at Kaji (tbh, dunno why you're even argueing against it, how the hell would he get injured so bad otw?)

 

[-Ken-]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

No ability to answer him means he can't return a ball. Defeat before being able to show it is because you can't show a technique if you can't hit a ball back at opponent. I already stated this.

It's this,

Sanada: I'm awesome! I'm going to hit Rai at my opponent!
/try to hit glowing shot and arm fall off.

If Kaji can't answer Oni Kishin, the ball just wouldn't fly back in the first place. How could he show his tech?

 

[Hardy]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

Uh? That wouldn't be ¨before¨. In that case, for example, it wouldn't be ¨Sanada was defeated even before being able to show Rai¨.

The ¨before¨ there is used implying it was super quick.

Dunno what does it even change anyway, it only makes your case worse. If Kaji can't hit a single ball back and Oni just Aced and Return Aced him, then how the hell he's so badly injured.

 

[-Ken-]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

It's before showing it. Not before playing. He play and can't show his tech because of Kishin. And yes, in that case, Sanada would be defeat before he show able to show Rai. How would Rai appear when Sanada arm fall off? Or do explain to me how Rai would be shown in that case, because I'm actually really curious.

He just hit the ball? Why would Oni got an ace on Kaji who got a whopping 7 speed. That's the highest speed we ever see so far in the story, of the stats that is ever confirm. If Kaji can't hit the Kishin ball, who would be able to hit it beside the PoP people? It's just that Kaji hit the ball, can't return it, and the resulting damage is too much and make it so he can't play anymore?

Where as Kintarou speed is a whole 3 points lower than Kaji. That DO means Kintarou must get to hit back a lot less Kishin than Kaji. Kintarou doesn't have Tezuka Zone.

 

[Hardy]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

It's before showing it. Not before playing. He play and can't show his tech because of Kishin. And yes, in that case, Sanada would be defeat before he show able to show Rai. How would Rai appear when Sanada arm fall off? Or do explain to me how Rai would be shown in that case, because I'm actually really curious.

It would be explained with different words. Not a ¨he got defeated before even using it¨ but something more like ¨he wasn't able to hit Rai¨. Dunno why you're so nitpicky about it anyway

He just hit the ball? Why would Oni got an ace on Kaji who got a whopping 7 speed. That's the highest speed we ever see so far in the story, of the stats that is ever confirm. If Kaji can't hit the Kishin ball, who would be able to hit it beside the PoP people? It's just that Kaji hit the ball, can't return it, and the resulting damage is too much and make it so he can't play anymore?

Where as Kintarou speed is a whole 3 points lower than Kaji. That DO means Kintarou must get to hit back a lot less Kishin than Kaji. Kintarou doesn't have Tezuka Zone.

So Kintarou has an Eagle's eye, has above average speed, can clone himself, can hit 10 bao, yet he can't ¨Even react to Oni's Kijin¨. But Kaji (who's 1 point above Irie and Ochi, players that didn't show anything unbelievable when it comes to speed) should be able to react, move and hit Kijin? ... that's possible I guess?

 

[-Ken-]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 123 and 124 Discussion/Predictions

Yeah, it's a difference between 7 and 4 speed. I don't see what's hard to understand about that. 7>4. It is almost double.

And I don't think I'm nitpicky. If Kaji can't return Oni's ball, he can't possible use any tech. It's just so simple.

Niou's need to go heal and #6 even say he might not be able to play anymore. I don't view that as #9 and #10 is crap. Nor do I view Gin as crap when he's crapping on Kawamura. It's just that they choose to play instead of give up and Kaji doesn't give up as well as far as we knows.

And the most important part to me is lack of crappy attitude like Byoudonin like I'm going to smash you up from Oni. That's why I bring up Byoudonin. That's an ass. Oni doesn't show such attitude, so he's not an ass from my point of view.