Discussion King Zahard discussion

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I'm only on age 4 so with 3 pages left this may have already been answered but.

1: Should be, but if not I imagine he has an avitar so is not very limited.
2: Until additional details of king's contract are stated, yes.
3: Tower residents have been shown to have been; Killed/kidnapped/raped by rankers with no admin interference. Ho's backstory, the Billion's White killed. It's called REGULAR protection because it's for REGULARS. Regulars are those chosen to climb the tower, not the common riffraff.

OK, I'll ask you then.

1.-2. - if that's (currently) the case, what do you think is stopping Zahard from confronting Baam in any area any other ranker has? If he is truly free to do as any ranker can (and we have no reason to believe that's not the case and you agree) then why can't he just go himself? He's shown the willingness to do things himself before - crap on Khell's efforts, possibly subjugate Enne, 'travel' to the data floor, kill Baam on FoD...

3. Regulars have been shown to be attacked in an effort to kill by rankers as well (with no admin interference). Nevertheless, what is a child of two regulars classified as? What is a child born of two rankers classified as? And, more importantly, can actual 'chosen' regulars leave the safety of certain zones to be attacked by rankers or not?

Where in the tower did those rapes and murders at the hands of rankers take place? Could it have been the areas where regulars/inhabitants don't enjoy the protection from rankers? Ho's village for instance. OTOH, White didn't actually kill any regulars/residents personally (his kingdom was in the outer part of the floor IIRC). He set two countries against each other so THEY would do the killing. I think that was the entire point. So he didn't have to, probably because he couldn't. He then just scooped up the souls after the fact.

I wasn't under the impression that rankers could kill even tower residents willy nilly - at least in certain areas. But maybe they can - I haven't seen the story make that distinction yet, has it?

I'm not sure how anyone reading the story since the Zygenia Flower mini-arc can argue that regulars don't face rankers on a... well, regular occurrence. Pick pretty much ANY chapter since then - unless it was specifically a floor test (and hell, even then) it had rankers and regulars fighting against each other - or regulars in peril because rankers were fighting nearby.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2020 ---

I hadn't thought of it until I wrote it, but now it feels like the right track. There's some old lore where Macseth (I think) told Urek (I'm sure) how to leave the tower, and Urek supposedly didn't understand it at all. I previously interpreted it as a testimony to Urek's, uh, intellect, but it's also coherent with Macseth explaining how to make pocket dimensions, teleport between them, and other "physics" mumbo-jumbo.

Right. And it coincides with Gong Bang existing both in and outside of the tower at the same time, whatever that means. Let's say it was a tube protruding from the tower where half is in half is out.... isn't that just an extension of the tower? So it would make more sense if it were the ability to transition between inside and outside dimensions that aren't actually physically connected. Baam's cave? Enryu's refuge? Arlen's escape hatch (she ended up at a place where there are no admin, but she was unfamiliar with it - if she was from outside the tower, shouldn't it be somewhat familiar?). Data floor for sure, possibly rice pot itself. Maybe Karaka's heart too.

Yeah, I think we agree. A better way I should've put it is that maybe Zahard can, you know, kill the Baam...but he also knows—at least by now—that that won't actually work (and maybe just makes his fate worse when it still, inevitably, arrives).

Like he's been told "someday this baby will cut your throat", he's like "why not just...kill it now..." and told "try if you wan't, but it won't matter". So he tried, realized it won't matter, and now isn't even wasting energy doing anything too direct—he knows that that would be futile.

So maybe nothing other than self-restraint is what's "holding him back" from making "obvious winning moves"...but even if he can't evade his fate, he can get his ducks lined up nicely so he has the best chance of squeaking by whenever that fate finally arrives.

Not sure on that theory, but it seems easier to rationalize than Zahard actually having his hands tied in any consistent way (maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but other than workshop-built items apparently being able of keeping him out, we don't see any evidence for such restrictions right now).

I see. Kind of like he can keep on trying and things will invariably happen that foil Baam actually being killed - see data floor and he had his hands around his neck even. The old 'you can't outrun fate' trope. Further, the 'whatever you do to TRY and avoid fate will ultimately lead to the exact fate you're trying to avoid' trope. Think - Final Destination movies.

So what is a king to do? Well, he tries to use proxies to make up for his personal lack of potency in killing Baam. For instance, he sends the ever-capable Kallavan to capture Baam as he knows if HE goes it will not work for fatalistic reasons. Damn, Baam was THIS CLOSE. Next time! He wins some battles but it doesn't stop the tide of war. Some efforts seem to even backfire. For instance, in trying to keep Baam from allying with the ancient heroes, he sends squads to kill or capture them, only these actions lead to them being awoken and... allying with Baam (we just KNOW this will happen in time). Oops. Shit. That had the opposite effect I was going for! Such is the case for trying to avoid your fate.

Though. Zahard does talk an awful lot about avoiding, or rather altering/playing with fate. Not sure if he actually has that ability (he was seemingly able to predict the Cage residents would arrive at the Wall... and send the appropriate countermeasure, Yas) or if he's just trying to fake it until he makes it. Perhaps that's been his desperate goal since he learned of his fate - hence the monster he internalized, the failed prince program - anything - all in an effort to become master of even fate. But it would seem only an axis can change reality (and thus fate). Maybe he's aware of what an axis is (or rather the idea of it, if not what it's called) and is trying to become one? Would have been an interesting conversation between him and Phanta...

And Baam's existence is altering the 'fate' of the tower. So if Zahard can truly alter fate and Baam can do as well (seems to be an irregular thing) then what happens when two forces - both capable of altering fate - finally meet face-to-face?


=====

Either way, I think 'fate' being the reason Zahard can't attack Baam is a much more interesting, nuanced, and referenced theme in the story other than simply - the admin won't let him. We have every indication that Zahard is just as much a victim to fate as he is attempting to master it (makes for a great flaw in the otherwise omnipotent villain) and no indication of the later.

 

[toil]

Either way, I think 'fate' being the reason Zahard can't attack Baam is a much more interesting, nuanced, and referenced theme in the story other than simply - the admin won't let him. We have every indication that Zahard is just as much a victim to fate as he is attempting to master it (makes for a great flaw in the otherwise omnipotent villain) and no indication of the later.

As a note on this, SIU appears to have a surprisingly-deep grasp of greek mythology—he seems to be aware-of and use a lot of concepts from Greek mythology that it'd be rare to grok from just reading typical retelling of the famous myths. The relevance here is that the above setup is basically the real story of Oedipus—the "ruh-roh, I've been a bad mother-f..." revelation being merely the punishment resulting from some unsuccessful efforts to escape from fate.

I tend to think that's the kind of story SIU's telling, but too soon to hazard a guess how it will play out.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Greeks were masters of tales of fate and fatalistic tragedies. It checks out.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

1.-2. - if that's (currently) the case, what do you think is stopping Zahard from confronting Baam in any area any other ranker has? If he is truly free to do as any ranker can (and we have no reason to believe that's not the case and you agree) then why can't he just go himself? He's shown the willingness to do things himself before - crap on Khell's efforts, possibly subjugate Enne, 'travel' to the data floor, kill Baam on FoD...

3. Regulars have been shown to be attacked in an effort to kill by rankers as well (with no admin interference). Nevertheless, what is a child of two regulars classified as? What is a child born of two rankers classified as? And, more importantly, can actual 'chosen' regulars leave the safety of certain zones to be attacked by rankers or not?

Where in the tower did those rapes and murders at the hands of rankers take place? Could it have been the areas where regulars/inhabitants don't enjoy the protection from rankers? Ho's village for instance. OTOH, White didn't actually kill any regulars/residents personally (his kingdom was in the outer part of the floor IIRC). He set two countries against each other so THEY would do the killing. I think that was the entire point. So he didn't have to, probably because he couldn't. He then just scooped up the souls after the fact.

I wasn't under the impression that rankers could kill even tower residents willy nilly - at least in certain areas. But maybe they can - I haven't seen the story make that distinction yet, has it?

I'm not sure how anyone reading the story since the Zygenia Flower mini-arc can argue that regulars don't face rankers on a... well, regular occurrence. Pick pretty much ANY chapter since then - unless it was specifically a floor test (and hell, even then) it had rankers and regulars fighting against each other - or regulars in peril because rankers were fighting nearby.

For 1-2 I don't have anything based in evidence, just my own personal theory. That is that Jahad thinks of everything currently happening as a game. I think it ties in with the whole "playing with fate" thing. Everyone is just pieces on a chessboard to him, and Baam might possibly be a piece outside of Jahad's control/view? I know he tried to kill him on the hidden floor, but he didn't have much emotion behind his actions(to me at least) and his main reason for being their was about his data losing/bracelet being taken. Kind of like "since I'm here I'll kill you, but I won't go out of my way to personally do it if you escape"


3. I think Cash quoted it somewhere, but on the wiki there is quote that says "They are also protected under the Tower's Rules upon entering the Inner Tower and in turn, are expected to abide by a set of the Tower's Rules in exchange for this set of rights. " if this is accurate, only Chosen Regulars are protected. The children or rankers, children of regulars and un-chosen tower born do not get protection.

I of course don't know where the incidents took place, and you are right that White didn't do the killing, I forgot about that. It says "After building each country up, he turned them against one another so that war and strife reigned endlessly throughout the lands " so maybe he chose to do it this way in order to get more souls. Instead of killing outright and getting all the souls currently alive, he started an endless war to get souls from not only them, but their descendents to come. (Also rotten personality, so he like having them dance like his puppets killing in his name.)

As for Zygaena, we don't know where that test took place right? I mean where Zygaena is located. So it could've been outside of the regular safe zone, or been allowed because it's a test, or the rule doesn't apply to Urek because he's an irregular. If the contract you get upon becoming a ranker includes an "cannot attack regulars" stipulation, then indeed even he would be bound, but as of yet we don't know if that's the case.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Hi, guys
i think “the boss”is a person who met Dowon in the past before she was sealed in the wall is “notZahard” and Snake guys who talk in the present is “same person”.? Guys help me pls bcoz NotZahard call himself “the Boss”.

Hello, sir. I don't think this is the thread for that but what you state is beyond confirmed. They're one and the same. See 462 blog post and you might want to read 465 again without going into spoilers here.

 

[Kadir0]

Just a thought, but i always wonder why Zahard didn’t make a move himself when he found out Baam is alive? He started to move when one of his princesses went insane or when Khel and his crew were making ruckus. He dealt with them by himself. The issue with Baam being alive should be bigger than those and instead of sending his lackeys, he should have deal it with himself once and for all (no way he’s underestimating Baam since he pretty much want to control fate)

That makes me think, he has a big plans for Baam (probably something to do with 135th floor) like how White is waiting Baam to grow and harvest his soul, Zahard also has a plans for him too, and all this troops and war are just him making Baam to mature fast. He sealed Kallavan’s arm, if Kallavan had gone all out before White even had the chance to gather souls and save Baam, he’d have killed Baam already. It was probably not a punishment for Kallavan to seal one of his arm but handicap to save Baam. Zahard is really one of the best villains i have seen and he did not make a lot of appearance in those 400+ chapters so far

 

[kkck]

I assume the main reason zahard himself hasn't made a move against bam is administrators... Whether or not zahard can defeat one, its not necessarily in his best interest to get on their bad side.

 

[Irvergnimacokh]

Zahard is a evil, no doubting that until proven wrong by SIU. I have similar discussion about his power and power of Urek. We clearly knew that both of them are stronger that all other irregulars on tower except the guys in 1-2 position in rating, who are above everyone without question(they can take all of tower with administrators and not flinch). The difference between Urek and Zah, are that Zah has advantage of begin king and advantage of contract, when in therms of level of power, until he became a king, he won't win against Urek, there will be tie(Urek was already the level of strongest of 10 heroes, Arie Hon, when he was a regular in 100 floor). Basically Zah and Urek are stronger than other 10 irregular heads of the families but when it comes to solo combat, advantage of Zahard as a king comes to play for him(also his achievements and the strongest family that contains the strongest combatants in the tower and strongest members of 10 families that became his princesses, this is essential for ranking for both of them). That's way Urek was placed below Zahard, because despite him being nearly same level as Zahard, he do not have same advantages that the position and contract are giving to the Zah.
Also, it's sad that this never happened )

 

[Sakashi]

I personally think that the reason why Zahard doesn’t make a move is because he doesn’t want to look weak and afraid.

 

[divica]

OK, I'll ask you then.

1.-2. - if that's (currently) the case, what do you think is stopping Zahard from confronting Baam in any area any other ranker has? If he is truly free to do as any ranker can (and we have no reason to believe that's not the case and you agree) then why can't he just go himself? He's shown the willingness to do things himself before - crap on Khell's efforts, possibly subjugate Enne, 'travel' to the data floor, kill Baam on FoD...

3. Regulars have been shown to be attacked in an effort to kill by rankers as well (with no admin interference). Nevertheless, what is a child of two regulars classified as? What is a child born of two rankers classified as? And, more importantly, can actual 'chosen' regulars leave the safety of certain zones to be attacked by rankers or not?

Where in the tower did those rapes and murders at the hands of rankers take place? Could it have been the areas where regulars/inhabitants don't enjoy the protection from rankers? Ho's village for instance. OTOH, White didn't actually kill any regulars/residents personally (his kingdom was in the outer part of the floor IIRC). He set two countries against each other so THEY would do the killing. I think that was the entire point. So he didn't have to, probably because he couldn't. He then just scooped up the souls after the fact.

I wasn't under the impression that rankers could kill even tower residents willy nilly - at least in certain areas. But maybe they can - I haven't seen the story make that distinction yet, has it?

I'm not sure how anyone reading the story since the Zygenia Flower mini-arc can argue that regulars don't face rankers on a... well, regular occurrence. Pick pretty much ANY chapter since then - unless it was specifically a floor test (and hell, even then) it had rankers and regulars fighting against each other - or regulars in peril because rankers were fighting nearby.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2020 ---

Right. And it coincides with Gong Bang existing both in and outside of the tower at the same time, whatever that means. Let's say it was a tube protruding from the tower where half is in half is out.... isn't that just an extension of the tower? So it would make more sense if it were the ability to transition between inside and outside dimensions that aren't actually physically connected. Baam's cave? Enryu's refuge? Arlen's escape hatch (she ended up at a place where there are no admin, but she was unfamiliar with it - if she was from outside the tower, shouldn't it be somewhat familiar?). Data floor for sure, possibly rice pot itself. Maybe Karaka's heart too.




I see. Kind of like he can keep on trying and things will invariably happen that foil Baam actually being killed - see data floor and he had his hands around his neck even. The old 'you can't outrun fate' trope. Further, the 'whatever you do to TRY and avoid fate will ultimately lead to the exact fate you're trying to avoid' trope. Think - Final Destination movies.

So what is a king to do? Well, he tries to use proxies to make up for his personal lack of potency in killing Baam. For instance, he sends the ever-capable Kallavan to capture Baam as he knows if HE goes it will not work for fatalistic reasons. Damn, Baam was THIS CLOSE. Next time! He wins some battles but it doesn't stop the tide of war. Some efforts seem to even backfire. For instance, in trying to keep Baam from allying with the ancient heroes, he sends squads to kill or capture them, only these actions lead to them being awoken and... allying with Baam (we just KNOW this will happen in time). Oops. Shit. That had the opposite effect I was going for! Such is the case for trying to avoid your fate.

Though. Zahard does talk an awful lot about avoiding, or rather altering/playing with fate. Not sure if he actually has that ability (he was seemingly able to predict the Cage residents would arrive at the Wall... and send the appropriate countermeasure, Yas) or if he's just trying to fake it until he makes it. Perhaps that's been his desperate goal since he learned of his fate - hence the monster he internalized, the failed prince program - anything - all in an effort to become master of even fate. But it would seem only an axis can change reality (and thus fate). Maybe he's aware of what an axis is (or rather the idea of it, if not what it's called) and is trying to become one? Would have been an interesting conversation between him and Phanta...

And Baam's existence is altering the 'fate' of the tower. So if Zahard can truly alter fate and Baam can do as well (seems to be an irregular thing) then what happens when two forces - both capable of altering fate - finally meet face-to-face?


=====

Either way, I think 'fate' being the reason Zahard can't attack Baam is a much more interesting, nuanced, and referenced theme in the story other than simply - the admin won't let him. We have every indication that Zahard is just as much a victim to fate as he is attempting to master it (makes for a great flaw in the otherwise omnipotent villain) and no indication of the later.

Very interesting.
I think it could provide a good explanation why baam is called the 25th baam.

Like baam was reincarnated 24 times before in different bodies with the objective to kill jahad. And this 25th baam reincarnated in viole's body and probably is the huge sun inside him.

It would also explain why jahad doesn t really care about killing viole. He already killed baam 24 times and he keeps coming back so maybe he is trying to do something direfent now.

Maybe the fact that viole was imprisoned in a cave outside the tower was one of jahad's plans to keep baam away from him...

 

[Anzere1stclass]

I hear you ! BTW, Zahard seems concerned about something (It is said by his data) do you think he was talking about Baam ? If so, if Zahard see his life threatened by Baam as he saw it as his fate, why doesn't he go down himself to kill Baam before he becomes strong enough to challenge him ?

I think zahard want to see bam become stronger he wants to respect the wish of his data he will send many powerful being to kill bam but he knows that if bam survives from them he will become more and more powerful

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 6, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 6, 2021 ---

Wow Zahard is awesome in this ! I saw some guys on reddit telling that Zahard may become some sort of an axis later as his goal is to control fate itself, or can he already ? There is something behind his three orders I believe, because why give 3 orders and choose only one to execute ?

Zahard is definitely not going to become an axis the three orders are like choice that zahard give to his servant

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 6, 2021 ---

Just a thought, but i always wonder why Zahard didn’t make a move himself when he found out Baam is alive? He started to move when one of his princesses went insane or when Khel and his crew were making ruckus. He dealt with them by himself. The issue with Baam being alive should be bigger than those and instead of sending his lackeys, he should have deal it with himself once and for all (no way he’s underestimating Baam since he pretty much want to control fate)

That makes me think, he has a big plans for Baam (probably something to do with 135th floor) like how White is waiting Baam to grow and harvest his soul, Zahard also has a plans for him too, and all this troops and war are just him making Baam to mature fast. He sealed Kallavan’s arm, if Kallavan had gone all out before White even had the chance to gather souls and save Baam, he’d have killed Baam already. It was probably not a punishment for Kallavan to seal one of his arm but handicap to save Baam. Zahard is really one of the best villains i have seen and he did not make a lot of appearance in those 400+ chapters so far

Like you said i think zahard want to see bam become stronger enough to be considered his new adventures on the hidden floor when his data said that bam is his new adventures zahard has shown respect for his data and said if that boy is worthy to have this (the bracelet) then we shall meet again someday

 

[Demonspeed]

The real Zahard isn't aware of what happened in the Hidden Floor. He didn't hear Young Data Zahard's wish.

 

[Consul N]

If that were true he wouldn't have put out the three orders. He knows Gustang stole the bracelet hence the "Destroy the Po Bidou family" order.

 

[Demonspeed]

If that were true he wouldn't have put out the three orders. He knows Gustang stole the bracelet hence the "Destroy the Po Bidou family" order.

I think that knowing that Gustang is a traitor and being aware of the discussion between Adult Data Zahard and the Young one are different things.

 

[Consul N]

I think that knowing that Gustang is a traitor and being aware of the discussion between Adult Data Zahard and the Young one are different things.

We'll have to agree to disagree then cause to me its the same thing.