Discussion Kurapika

[Li Mochou]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

what you're talking about is simply nen itself. but in close combat, it's not only nen alone that play the role. it's about physical strength too.

it's like killua vs zushi :
killua nen is 0, and zushi nen is (let say) level 1. however, the power of both punch are different. even with nen, zushi can be KO'ed by killua's non nen attack.

if it used your nen equation, killua's attack would be -1 to zushi that means killua would be the one who was injured.

i will try to make my own equation based on the explanation in manga...

reinforcement efficiency* physical strength * nen mastery* percentage of nen used to attack or defend = attack or defense points

explanation :

1. nen mastery is how hard the user train their nen/amount of nen (it's likethiese examples : yupi has 700000 and morau 70000 and gon 12500)
2. percentage of nen used to attack or defend is how much amount of nen is put on certain part of user body that is used to attack or defense (gyou/kou/ryu technique)
3. reinforcement efficieny has to be used bcoz in phsical fight/close combat, the only nen type that is involved is reinforcement (0-10)
4. physical strength is amount of strength without nen. (it's like arm wrestling in ryodan where ubo was the strongest, and then phinx, hisoka, and so on).

based on that, the total power the user has is :
reinforcement efficiency* physical strength * nen mastery* 100% = attack or defense points

so, ubo vs kurapika :
kurapika's power to defend = 10*50*50*70% = 17500
bigbang impact = 10*100*100*20% = 20000
it means kurapika get 2500 damage from total power he has which is 10*50*50*100% = 250000. it's a 10% damage which cause broken arm.

kurapika emperor time plays a role in the reinforcement efficiency. actually, if he didnt use emperor time, his efficiency is only 6 due to materialization potential of him
kurapika's total amount of nen is probably below ubo bcoz their experience and training has a big gap. so, ubo get 100pts and kurapika only 50pts.

 

[XXGenesis]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

the efficiency in hexagonal hatsu chart is like a rate. if it's not a rate, then kurapika who achieved max efficency in all category of nen would be the strongest of all nen user. but we dont see it actually. being able to have 100% in each category means that kurapika can learn the other category AS EASY AS materializtion. however, the power he can achieve depens on his training and potential (not nen potential but human's potential).

acrually i agree with Uriel's opinion the most.

and the determination in kurapika's chain that ubo talked about is actually his emperor time.

and again, actually something make him able to whitstand ubo's big bang impact is that kurapika used the prepared gyou/kou to protect agants ubo's big bang impact.

example : kurapika has 100pts aura. ubo has 100pts aura.
ubo's big bang impact is just normal punch with aura. it means that on his hand, he might only use 10pts aura. however, kurapika tanked it with gyo/kou and used more than 50% of his aura. basically, it wont damage kurapika so bad (not even broke his armO however, ubo's physical strength is like 10 times stronger than kurapika's. so, it lightly injured kurapika. if ubo had used 50% aura on his hand, kurapika would have lost his arm or dead.

Kurapica's basically when his eyes are red can utilize each hatsu of nen to 100% efficiency. He materials 5 chains and commonly Hatsu are mix amongst the group, favorably not to your less compatible nen...Kurapica doesn't have this problem once his eyes turns red he can use all Nen to it's fullest....However 2 of the chains are only for then Spiders.......

So baically Kurapica used Ryu not Gyo.....To block with at least over 80% of his nen and used Reinforcement based to match Uvgon's power....That's also why he was able to damage Uvgon so much when he attacked. Kurapica's Kurta clan is strong....But He isn't invincible he wasn't on The Spiders level per say...bout 2-3 levels he just used good tatics and his nen has a powerful conviction to it.

 

[Uriel]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

That applies as was said by basic fighting in Nen. And if you pay attention to the page you linked, it's exactly about that.
Levels of Hatsu doesn't work JUST by that. It's a bit more complicate because it's not only Nen formula.

To put it in numbers, the whole damage would be something like this:
(Uvo Nen Basic Gyo* Uvo Strength + Uvo Reinforcement Multiplier by LVL) - ( [Kurapika Nen Basic Kou * Kurapika Strength + Kurapika Emperor Time Reinforcement Multiplier by LVL]*Kurapika Pledge on Genei Ryodan AKA Mystery Points)= Damage Dealt

Summarized:
ƩUvo - ƩKurapika = ΔF = Damage

 

[MegamanX195]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

Actually, Kurapika's master specifically used "100%" when he was talking about someone who fully mastered Reinforcement, which means he was talking about the efficiency rate that Kurapika's Emperor Time boosts. Basically, it means he was comparing 2 people of the same level, nothing in that line indicates that there is a cap in the levels.

And on the Levels thing, I don't think Levels increase that easily over time, for all we know, you can get to Level 10 in 1 month, but to get form Level 10 to Level 11 it could take 2 months. Most MMOs work like that actually: start off easy, then take long to get to higher levels. Even with Ubogin's high experience, who's to say that it doesn't take him upwards from a year to improve a single level, since he's at a high level? It was never stated Kurapika's (or anyone's) max level was 10 in the Levels explanation, nor even implied.

The equation is probably a lot more complicated than that (that equation only applies if both users are from comparable levels and without counting Ryuu/Ko), and, as Uriel said, Kurapika's Emperor Time both increases maximum aura, and probably acts as Mystery Points multiplier.

 

[XXGenesis]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

That applies as was said by basic fighting in Nen. And if you pay attention to the page you linked, it's exactly about that.
Levels of Hatsu doesn't work JUST by that. It's a bit more complicate because it's not only Nen formula.

To put it in numbers, the whole damage would be something like this:
(Uvo Nen Basic Gyo* Uvo Strength + Uvo Reinforcement Multiplier by LVL) - ( [Kurapika Nen Basic Kou * Kurapika Strength + Kurapika Emperor Time Reinforcement Multiplier by LVL]*Kurapika Pledge on Genei Ryodan AKA Mystery Points)= Damage Dealt

Summarized:
ƩUvo - ƩKurapika = ΔF = Damage

This is your nen formula Which doesn't exist in the world of HXH so I can't use what you just wrote as fact.

The whole levels are dumb considering Kurapica's ability to use 100% accuracy and force...Cause if his opponents level is higher and they use 100% Kurapica should never win in a clash...I.E Uvgon..

I myself understand how he survived the hit...Uvgon's Big bang simply wasn't packed with more aura than Kurapica blocked with...Even if Nen attacks are blocked with more aura or whatever damage still can be done...I.E Kurapica's broken arm.

 

[Uriel]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

The formula itself is mine, but the things on it and how they relate to each other were implied in the manga. I'll do later a thread to where I get each part if I need to prove it.

But the whole levels thing are not dumb, it's the way how Nen users differentiate from each other and shows the fighting experience into play.

 

[NoFreakingWay]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

what you're talking about is simply nen itself. but in close combat, it's not only nen alone that play the role. it's about physical strength too.

it's like killua vs zushi :
killua nen is 0, and zushi nen is (let say) level 1. however, the power of both punch are different. even with nen, zushi can be KO'ed by killua's non nen attack.

if it used your nen equation, killua's attack would be -1 to zushi that means killua would be the one who was injured.

i will try to make my own equation based on the explanation in manga...

reinforcement efficiency* physical strength * nen mastery* percentage of nen used to attack or defend = attack or defense points

explanation :

1. nen mastery is how hard the user train their nen/amount of nen (it's likethiese examples : yupi has 700000 and morau 70000 and gon 12500)
2. percentage of nen used to attack or defend is how much amount of nen is put on certain part of user body that is used to attack or defense (gyou/kou/ryu technique)
3. reinforcement efficieny has to be used bcoz in phsical fight/close combat, the only nen type that is involved is reinforcement (0-10)
4. physical strength is amount of strength without nen. (it's like arm wrestling in ryodan where ubo was the strongest, and then phinx, hisoka, and so on).

based on that, the total power the user has is :
reinforcement efficiency* physical strength * nen mastery* 100% = attack or defense points

so, ubo vs kurapika :
kurapika's power to defend = 10*50*50*70% = 17500
bigbang impact = 10*100*100*20% = 20000
it means kurapika get 2500 damage from total power he has which is 10*50*50*100% = 250000. it's a 10% damage which cause broken arm.

kurapika emperor time plays a role in the reinforcement efficiency. actually, if he didnt use emperor time, his efficiency is only 6 due to materialization potential of him
kurapika's total amount of nen is probably below ubo bcoz their experience and training has a big gap. so, ubo get 100pts and kurapika only 50pts.

That applies as was said by basic fighting in Nen. And if you pay attention to the page you linked, it's exactly about that.
Levels of Hatsu doesn't work JUST by that. It's a bit more complicate because it's not only Nen formula.

To put it in numbers, the whole damage would be something like this:
(Uvo Nen Basic Gyo* Uvo Strength + Uvo Reinforcement Multiplier by LVL) - ( [Kurapika Nen Basic Kou * Kurapika Strength + Kurapika Emperor Time Reinforcement Multiplier by LVL]*Kurapika Pledge on Genei Ryodan AKA Mystery Points)= Damage Dealt

Summarized:
ƩUvo - ƩKurapika = ΔF = Damage

This is your nen formula Which doesn't exist in the world of HXH so I can't use what you just wrote as fact.

The whole levels are dumb considering Kurapica's ability to use 100% accuracy and force...Cause if his opponents level is higher and they use 100% Kurapica should never win in a clash...I.E Uvgon..

I myself understand how he survived the hit...Uvgon's Big bang simply wasn't packed with more aura than Kurapica blocked with...Even if Nen attacks are blocked with more aura or whatever damage still can be done...I.E Kurapica's broken arm.

You don't include the Mystery Points anymore when you've already included the Emperor Time Reinforcement boost. The Mystery Points of Emperor Time is what gives the additional 40% to Kurapika's 60% to make it reach 100% of his current Reinforcement level. What you did is redundancy.

@ Megaman

Kurapika didn't reach the Reinforcement Level Cap 10 using Emperor Time. Emperor Time just brings him to 100% of his current Reinforcement level. It doesn't bring him higher than that.

On the page that I included in my earlier post Kurapika's master tells us: "Even if you maximize Reinforcement, you will only be able to Reinforce your physical potential by 60%.". That is an indication that there is a cap on the Hatsu Levels indeed. How do you "maximize Reinforcement" to "reinforce your physical potential by 60%" if there is no cap? If there is no cap, at what Hatsu Level would you say that you have maximized Reinforcement? Level 100? Level 1000? 10000 maybe? In short, if there is no Hatsu Level cap, Kurapika's master's equation are all hogwash.

@Li Mochou

It doesn't even matter if you factor in your POP and AOP since there is an absolute certainty Ubo's AOP and POP is higher than Kurapika's due to Ubo having seniority in the nen business. Kurapika would still far impossibly short to Ubo's AOP and POP and he would not only get a fracture from BBI but he will be slaughtered then and there if there were no caps.

Additionally, Kurapika's master didn't use whole numbers. Sens Points were a percentage. The 100 for the puncher means the Puncher has access to 100% of his Level 10 Reinforcement Level, and to the defender, 60% of Level 6.

In fact, both numbers used (Condition or AP of Attacker and DP of Defender, and Sens Points) are percentages, therefore the result is a percentage (only 40% damage received). So there's a big error in your calculation. I suggest using Kurapika's master's equation instead of coming up with one yourself.

The biggest flaw in your made-up equation is that there's basically no way to tell how much POP and AOP a Nen-User has. Let me explain. AOP and POP were introduced when Knuckle inflicted Hakoware on Gon. He was then able to extrapolate Gon's AOP and POP due to the numbers appearing on Potclean's forehead. There were no such abilities present during Kurapika and Ubo's fight that showed us how much AOP and POP both Nen-user had at that time. Therefore we cannot tell how much AOP and POP both Nen-users had.

Using relatively common sense, we can immediately tell Kurapika's "power to defend" did not reach the numbers you claim it could, and Ubo's BBI is not as weak as you claim.

So I'm really sorry to tell you this but your equation does not hold water at all.

@XXGenesis

This might seem derogatory to Uriel but yes, I agree with you, Uriel's formula is just his and doesn't exist anywhere else in HXH. His formula does have the error of redundancy (by still considering Mystery Points when he already invoked the 100% current Level bonus of Emperor Time) so it wouldn't even hold water.

 

[MegamanX195]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

When Kurapika's master was explaining the formula to Kurapika, he put in Kurapika at 60 Sens Points but, according to your understanding, he should actually be 36 (60% from Level 6. Remember, it's impossible to go more than that for a Conjurer). Which means, Kurapika's master's equation referred to when both fighters were at the same Level. For example, if it referred to a Reinforcer that was Level 10 Reinforcement and a Conjurer which also was Level 10 Reinforcement. That way, (100 AP + 100) - (100 DP + 60) works. If Kurapika's master explanation worked as you described, the equation would have been (100 AP + 100) - (100 DP + 36).

 

[NoFreakingWay]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

When Kurapika's master was explaining the formula to Kurapika, he put in Kurapika at 60 Sens Points but, according to your understanding, he should actually be 36 (60% from Level 6. Remember, it's impossible to go more than that for a Conjurer). Which means, Kurapika's master's equation referred to when both fighters were at the same Level. For example, if it referred to a Reinforcer that was Level 10 Reinforcement and a Conjurer which also was Level 10 Reinforcement. That way, (100 AP + 100) - (100 DP + 60) works. If Kurapika's master explanation worked as you described, the equation would have been (100 AP + 100) - (100 DP + 36).

That would mean Kurapika's master made an error in his calculation in my understanding. Gasp.

No.

I never even converted 60% of Level to get 32%. I just took it as Kurapika's Master said it and never converted.

You know why I don't convert?

Let me give you an example: which is bigger, Level 5 at 100%, or Level 6 at 32%?

Level 5 at 100%, if you convert. Because that would mean 50%. Right?

I don't convert. All I'm thinking is that you can only use 60% of Level 6. It's going to be different than when you actually convert because you will drop to 32%, which his pretty far from 60%. I hope you're getting what I'm pointing out here.

Basically in my understanding, that 60% a Materialization user can use out of Level 6, his max - which results in 60% out of 100% Reinforcement usage - cannot be used to convert. It just means that as a Level 6 Reinforcement user, you're capped at 60% of total usage.

To make things easier, try drawing a Hatsu Level Bar. Draw it as you would draw the horizontal lifebar seen on fighting games.

Divide the bar into 10.

Shade the first 5 bars. Those represent the first 5 Levels.

Now, focus on the 6th bar. That's Level 6.

On that 6th bar, shade it up to 60%, more than halfway through that 6th bar. That's 60% of Level 6. Got it? Good. That's my understanding.

Did it bring you lower than Level 6? Did it turn your percentage into 32% No.

In your understanding of my understanding, you are thinking I am converting. Which is obviously false.

Please don't put words in my mouth again.

 

[MegamanX195]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

Sorry about the misunderstanding, I see your point now, and even agree with it. Just to make it clear, though, by "in your understanding" I meant the part about "Hatsu Levels have a cap" based on Kurapika's master explanation. The rest I merely assumed, sorry for making it sound like that.

Still, something is not being applied at Kurapika's master equation. In that equation, he was talking about a Reinforcement user using 100% at Level 10, and Kurapika was using 60% at Level 6, right? Let's suppose Kurapika was Level 6 at 100% in that equation. What changes in the equation?

 

[Li Mochou]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

i didnt say that ubo's bigbang impact was weak. it's kurapika that concetrated his aura on his arm to defend big bang impact. with advantage of this concetration and power up from emperor time, it's possible for kurapika to defend it with minor injury. even with that, it still showed how big bang impact owned those effort kurapika did. if ubo used gyou or kou punch, then kurapika would have been dead.

the equation is just example to understand it easly.

about aura amoint, i just give them amount based on the training they did. bcoz ubo has more experience and longer using nen, then his nen must be way more than kurapika's.

and about level.. as i know, it's just the same with efficiency of nen. so, level 10 = 100%efficency in certain category. however, even though two persons have level 10 of reinforcement, it doesnt mean that their power are the same bcoz there are other factors that play a role, some of them are physical strength and aura amount.

however, maybe what you mean with level is like aura amount. so, even though ubo and kurapika has 100% efficiency in reinforcement, their level of nen (amount/quality/quantity of nen) is different. ubo has reached level 10 and kurapika reached level below ubo's. and if it's the case, the max level is unlimited depens on how potential are the users and how hard they train.

 

[Uriel]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

Mystery Points are not added in some place in particular and they affects different things in the same way Reinforcement Techniques acts on basics as well WITHOUT taking them out of the total calculation.

:/

 

[Li Mochou]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

Mystery Points are not added in some place in particular and they affects different things in the same way Reinforcement Techniques acts on basics as well WITHOUT taking them out of the total calculation.

:/

yea, mysteri point for kurapika's ability didnt increase the amount of aura for physical fighting, it's to make his chain jail work. the example of MP that is used for physical fighting is shalnark's auto mode.

this is the most update equation.. XD

AP + SP = power.

i will change it a lil bit and it will bcom AP + SP*(percentage of nen used)*(total amount of nen that available to be used in physical fighting)

 

[zelllogan]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

And I already had an headache before opening the thread.

 

[Popo]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

Uvo hadn't mastered his abilities as an Enhancer. He was working to get his strength up? He also wasn't at his best when he fought Kurapika. He works best in pairs, and he hadn't slept. Uvo was probably drunk too, since he'd been drinking nothing but beer all day.

 

[XXGenesis]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

---------- Post added at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 AM ----------

Mystery Points are not added in some place in particular and they affects different things in the same way Reinforcement Techniques acts on basics as well WITHOUT taking them out of the total calculation.

:/

mystery points that you are talking about Uriel can never be measured......Mystery points you are talking about are Example such as Kurapica's Rage for the Ryodan, Gon's anger towards Pitou.....Nen's amplification through Emotional, Will or strict contracts...kurapica's Emperor of time doesn't give him mystery points it's his desire to crush the Ryodan. And thats why he's almost already able to compete with them.


@NoFreakingway Good explanation. The way you explained is pretty much the way I always understood it.....Most Hatsu's are a mixture of abilities...Such as Reinforcment users wouldn't be wise to make a Hatsu including manipulation or materialization....They could create a technique but it would be flawed big time and a waste of their potential...Hisoka mentioned this before about Kastro using a Hatsu not suited for him....

So pretty much there's no way for Kurapica who's not of the Reinforcement group to be higher in level than Uvgon.....Kurapica's aura amount and his 100% efficiency is what saved him....And his Zetsu chain.

 

[NoFreakingWay]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

Sorry about the misunderstanding, I see your point now, and even agree with it. Just to make it clear, though, by "in your understanding" I meant the part about "Hatsu Levels have a cap" based on Kurapika's master explanation. The rest I merely assumed, sorry for making it sound like that.

Still, something is not being applied at Kurapika's master equation. In that equation, he was talking about a Reinforcement user using 100% at Level 10, and Kurapika was using 60% at Level 6, right? Let's suppose Kurapika was Level 6 at 100% in that equation. What changes in the equation?

i didnt say that ubo's bigbang impact was weak. it's kurapika that concetrated his aura on his arm to defend big bang impact. with advantage of this concetration and power up from emperor time, it's possible for kurapika to defend it with minor injury. even with that, it still showed how big bang impact owned those effort kurapika did. if ubo used gyou or kou punch, then kurapika would have been dead.

the equation is just example to understand it easly.

about aura amoint, i just give them amount based on the training they did. bcoz ubo has more experience and longer using nen, then his nen must be way more than kurapika's.

and about level.. as i know, it's just the same with efficiency of nen. so, level 10 = 100%efficency in certain category. however, even though two persons have level 10 of reinforcement, it doesnt mean that their power are the same bcoz there are other factors that play a role, some of them are physical strength and aura amount.

however, maybe what you mean with level is like aura amount. so, even though ubo and kurapika has 100% efficiency in reinforcement, their level of nen (amount/quality/quantity of nen) is different. ubo has reached level 10 and kurapika reached level below ubo's. and if it's the case, the max level is unlimited depens on how potential are the users and how hard they train.

Mystery Points are not added in some place in particular and they affects different things in the same way Reinforcement Techniques acts on basics as well WITHOUT taking them out of the total calculation.

:/

yea, mysteri point for kurapika's ability didnt increase the amount of aura for physical fighting, it's to make his chain jail work. the example of MP that is used for physical fighting is shalnark's auto mode.

this is the most update equation.. XD

AP + SP = power.

i will change it a lil bit and it will bcom AP + SP*(percentage of nen used)*(total amount of nen that available to be used in physical fighting)

Uvo hadn't mastered his abilities as an Enhancer. He was working to get his strength up? He also wasn't at his best when he fought Kurapika. He works best in pairs, and he hadn't slept. Uvo was probably drunk too, since he'd been drinking nothing but beer all day.

@Megaman

Nothing changes in Kurapika's Master's equation as I understood it. The master just supposed Kurapika and Ubo were at the cap of their Reinforcement Hatsu Levels, which are Reinforcement Level 6 - 60% (which he further assumed that somehow Kurapika would get up to Level 6 - 100% through Mystery Points) and Reinforcement Level 10 - 100%, respectively.

Note that this doesn't actually applied in Kurapika and Ubo's fight. We don't know which levels both were and what Condition (AP for Ubo and DP for Kurapika) they were at.

Finally, sorry I sounded like a douche.

@ Li Mochou

Yes, with the numbers you came up with in the equation you made up, Ubo's BBI was weak enough for Kurapika's defense to tank without Hatsu Level cap.

Yes, the equation you came up with is easy to understand. But my point is that it is flawed. Full of holes. There's nothing like it in the manga.

The equation Togashi showed through Kurapika's master was to show how much damage a person from another Hatsu receives from another person who is from that Hatsu, taking into consideration their physical condition. And the Hatsu used as an example used is Reinforcement. Reinforcement was considered because it affects all Nen-apps for defense and offense, like Gyo, Ken, Kou, etc. You guys know this.

The problem with your attempt at an equation is that you're trying to come up with a formula for actual damage inflicted. You can't. Why?

There is no formula in HXH that makes you determine AOP and POP. Your attempt is not supported by the manga and will therefore fail. The numbers are even off. Potclean is the only thing you'll come close to getting a person's POP and AOP.

Not that it will help you with your claim that there is no Hatsu Level cap.

I have tried extensively to differentiate Hatsu Level from AOP/POP.

This is what I meant when referring to Hatsu Levels. That's the thing I say that caps off at Level 10 for your innate Hatsu (Materialization for Kurapika), Level 8 for your Adjacent Hatsus (Transformation and Specialization for Kurapika), Level 6 for your Distant Hatsus (Reinforcement and Manipulation for Kurapika), and Level 4 for your Opposite Hatsu (Emission for Kurapika).

http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter108/153248-6.html

AOP/POP is clearly from the Knuckle lecture. POP is your whole reservoir of Aura. AOP is the maximum amount of aura you can use at one time, subtracted from your POP. Both can be upgraded by doing Ten and Ren. These two are things things that do not have a cap. They don't even have a level at all.


@ Uriel

You don't train Reinforcement by training your basic Nen-apps like Ten and Ren. Ten and Ren is used for upgrading your POP and AOP. The other basics are trained because you want to upgrade your efficiency at them. The basic Nen-app training is there so you can move your aura faster and you can pump more aura in those apps when you need it. They don't upgrade Reinforcement.

There exists particular exercises for Reinforcement Hatsus.

http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter144/153313-11.html
http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter144/153313-12.html


Biscuit even said, "specific type training". This drills it further that you have training for the basic Nen-apps and sperate training for Hatsus.

These are good pages to prove there are Hatsu Level caps.

http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter145/153315/
http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter145/153315-3.html

Notice the words "training for Reinforcement Level 1".

Now imagine. If there were no Hatsu Level caps, what would training for Reinforcement Level 1000000 look like? Does it involve you grasping the moon, using Shuu on it, using Kou, and bashing it into your planet?

That's pretty absurd stuff right there.

Anyways, for Kurapika's ability and Mystery Points.

Emperor Time brings Kurapika up to 100% of any Hatsu at the current Level he's in. That's why he becomes "Level 4 at 100% in Red-Eyes condition" when considering Emission.

Now, what fuels Kurapika's Emperor Time so that it could get this effect?

Mystery Points. Getting them onto Emperor Time is already understood (ie. Kurapika's determination, anger, etc.).

Now in your made-up equation, you considered the 40% bonus to Kurapika's 60% Reinforcement Level to bring him up to Level 6 at 100%, and at the same time adding the Mystery Points.

This is a redundancy. The Mystery Points are exactly what gives Emperor Time this ability to bring Kurapika at 100% of a Hatsu's current Level.

It's not that thats the only flaw in your equation. You even considered Ubo's Gyo. How do you get that value? The manga has not offered any way to do this. Therefore you'll never get anywhere at determining the actual damage Ubogin dealt to Kurapika.

Your equation doesn't even help you explain your claim that there are no Hatsu Level caps. You have no answers for all the question I've posed. Almost feels like talking to a person without ears.

@ Popo

For sure Ubo hasn't reached the maximum Reinforcement Level yet (Level 10 - 100%). But I made it fairly obvious to put him at his max to make the calculation easier and at the same time echo what Kurapika's master wrote as our only damage reduction formula in the manga so far.

@ XXGenesis

Well I'm happy some people are getting the long walls of text I'm posting.

 

[Uriel]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

Level 100? It's like school. There is known levels and then further experimentation that brings new knowledge. You can somewhat Master something but that doesn't mean you can't go even further. The training of Ren and Ten is basic Aura but it also helps Reinforcement Training basically because Reinforcement doesn't require more than the basics to be mastered. If you see, what it's applied in that exercise is Gyo and Aura Balance. Aura Balance is something that it's a basic skill that Killua ALSO trained.

Caps are non existant and more when we take in consideration that the manga itself is about breaking limits and going further. What you say has sense in some way, but it's way too limited and there IS NO EVIDENCE that level 10 is the cap. ANYWHERE IN THE MANGA.

And to lvl 1 to lvl50 the difference in experience is WAY vast. It just doesn't require the same to reach from lvl 1 to lvl 2 as lvl10 to lvl11. So for all we know, most users with experience are at level 10-11, beginners in lvl 1 to 5 and beasts are at lvl17-20. Of course, this is just an assumption but it's only to show my point.

Anyways, for Kurapika's ability and Mystery Points.
Emperor Time brings Kurapika up to 100% of any Hatsu at the current Level he's in. That's why he becomes "Level 4 at 100% in Red-Eyes condition" when considering Emission.

Not exactly. While in Emperor Time, Kurapika is able to use a Hatsu at 100% efficiency. Doesn't affects the levels. And that's you biggest flaw in your thinking.

It's not that thats the only flaw in your equation. You even considered Ubo's Gyo. How do you get that value? The manga has not offered any way to do this. Therefore you'll never get anywhere at determining the actual damage Ubogin dealt to Kurapika.

We know that energy is equal to e=m.c2. I know Togashi wont use it, but the total aura focused in point is equal to the total aura used, that being Ten or Ren.


And I'm reading with eyes

 

[MegamanX195]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

And to lvl 1 to lvl50 the difference in experience is WAY vast. It just doesn't require the same to reach from lvl 1 to lvl 2 as lvl10 to lvl11. So for all we know, most users with experience are at level 10-11, beginners in lvl 1 to 5 and beasts are at lvl17-20. Of course, this is just an assumption but it's only to show my point.

Basically, this is what I meant.

 

[NoFreakingWay]

Re: How did Kurapika tank Uvogin's Big Bang Impact?

Level 100? It's like school. There is known levels and then further experimentation that brings new knowledge. You can somewhat Master something but that doesn't mean you can't go even further. The training of Ren and Ten is basic Aura but it also helps Reinforcement Training basically because Reinforcement doesn't require more than the basics to be mastered. If you see, what it's applied in that exercise is Gyo and Aura Balance. Aura Balance is something that it's a basic skill that Killua ALSO trained.

Caps are non existant and more when we take in consideration that the manga itself is about breaking limits and going further. What you say has sense in some way, but it's way too limited and there IS NO EVIDENCE that level 10 is the cap. ANYWHERE IN THE MANGA.

And to lvl 1 to lvl50 the difference in experience is WAY vast. It just doesn't require the same to reach from lvl 1 to lvl 2 as lvl10 to lvl11. So for all we know, most users with experience are at level 10-11, beginners in lvl 1 to 5 and beasts are at lvl17-20. Of course, this is just an assumption but it's only to show my point.


Not exactly. While in Emperor Time, Kurapika is able to use a Hatsu at 100% efficiency. Doesn't affects the levels. And that's you biggest flaw in your thinking.


We know that energy is equal to e=m.c2. I know Togashi wont use it, but the total aura focused in point is equal to the total aura used, that being Ten or Ren.


And I'm reading with eyes

Posts like these are the reason I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

Level 100? It's like school. There is known levels and then further experimentation that brings new knowledge. You can somewhat Master something but that doesn't mean you can't go even further.

Spoiler

In HxH, once you reach the Hatsu Level cap, there remains 3 ways to "take it further".

1. Do Ten and Ren everyday to increase AOP and POP. This is for pumping more aura in your Nen-apps.

2. Show your determination and the intensity of your emotions by putting more restrictions and conditions in your Hatsu so that you'll give it more Mystery Points

3. With your accumulated knowledge and experience, use your Hatsu creatively to get more out of it (i.e. Hisoka's way of using Bungee Gum and Deceitful Texture).

1 and 2 are the measurable ways of bringing your Hatsu beyond the Hatsu Level cap. 3 is immeasurable. All 3 do not have anything to do with Hatsu Levels anyway. I have been pointing 1 and 2 out so many times in the past few posts and I am utterly baffled why you keep ignoring it. I guess you don't have much time to digest everything in those long posts.

The training of Ren and Ten is basic Aura but it also helps Reinforcement Training basically because Reinforcement doesn't require more than the basics to be mastered. If you see, what it's applied in that exercise is Gyo and Aura Balance. Aura Balance is something that it's a basic skill that Killua ALSO trained.

Spoiler

What? Gyo and Aura Balance? What the hell? It's clearly written there. "Shu and Kou".

http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter145/153315-2.html

Not "Gyo and Aura Balance". What are you even talking about?

And why single out Reinforcement? Training Ten and Ren increases your AOP and POP. With a bigger amount of AOP and POP you have more Aura to pump your Nen-Apps with. With more AOP and POP, you have more Aura to maintain Ten and Ren longer. With more AOP and POP, you have more Aura to maintain things like Shu and get a stronger Kou. With more AOP and POP, you have more Aura to put longer hours into "specific Hatsu training" of Reinforcement, Transformation, Emission, Manipulation and Materialization. This is why Biscuit pointed out that you can't neglect basic training (Ten and Ren), because it makes you train other apps longer. No reason why you should single out Reinforcement.

Caps are non existant and more when we take in consideration that the manga itself is about breaking limits and going further. What you say has sense in some way, but it's way too limited and there IS NO EVIDENCE that level 10 is the cap. ANYWHERE IN THE MANGA.

Spoiler

Level 10 is not limited. That's just your opinion. You underestimate what I meant by Level 10 too much. I have said in an earlier post that 100% of Level 10 takes a very long time to reach. Level 10 100% is to HxH as Level 99 is to Diablo 2. Most people won't reach it.

Caps exist. At least, for Hatsu Levels. There aren't any caps for AOP/POP. These are what I've been repeatedly saying. You just have to read harder, and you have to ask yourself practical questions.

Read these pages.

A. http://www.mangareader.net/207-14092-5/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-83.html
B. http://www.mangareader.net/207-14092-6/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-83.html
c. http://www.mangareader.net/207-14092-7/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-83.html
D. http://www.mangareader.net/207-14117-6/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-108.html

The four clues to the Hatsu Level caps are:

1. The Hatsu Level (represented by things like Emission Level 4, Materialization Level 10 in D)
2. The Level Percentage (represented by the "40%" of Emission Level 4 in D)
3. Sens Points (represented by "100% in Reinforcement for Reinforcement users" and "60% in Reinforcement for Materialization users" in B)
4. The word "maximize", used by Kurapika's master in B.

Hatsu Level and Sens Points are linked to each other.

If you are at Level 10 Reinforcement Hatsu Level, that means you have 100% Reinforcement Sens Points, therefore you have "maximized" Reinforcement.

Sens Points are not Level Percentages, for if it were the case, saying you are a Reinforcement user with a Level 10 50% for Reinforcement would clearly mean you have not "maximized" Reinforcement. This is going to be clearer when you say you are a Reinforcement user with a Level 5 at 100%, for at Level 5 you clearly haven't "maximized" Reinforcement yet.

After internalizing that, ask yourself these questions:

1. If there were no Hatsu Level caps, at what level would you say you have "maximized" Reinforcement?

Let's say you are a Reinforcement Level 12 at 100%. Would you say you have "maximized" Reinforcement itself? Clearly not, since there are levels higher than Level 12. It would be absurd to say you have "maximized" Reinforcement.

2. If there were no Hatsu Level caps, would this accurately explain how Kurapika only suffered a fracture from BBI?

Let's use your example. Let's put Kurapika at Level 5 Reinforcement, and Ubo at Level 17.

Let's also give sample Conditions. Let's put Kurapika at 90% and Ubo at 80%.

Then let's use the Damage Reduction formula used by Kurapika's master.

(80 + 170) - (90 + 50)

= (250) - (140)

= 110% Damage.

Let's take this a step forward and give sample numbers for BBI and Kurapika's defensive Nen-App.

Ubo is way more experienced than Kurapika at Nen. He should therefore have a lot of AOP/POP and he should have a lot of aura packed in BBI, as demonstrated when he carved a crater and tore Worm into shreds. Let's give his BBI a modest 6000 Aura. Why? BBI certainly couldn't have been weaker than Chimera Ant-era normal Gon Jan Ken Guu (i.e. the one he used on Knuckle and the Owl-Gorilla and Bat chimera Ants).

Kurapika is relatively new to Nen. He should have a lot less AOP/POP than Ubo. Add to that the fact that he is from Materialization so that his Reinforcement Hatsu training speed is low. Add to that the chance that he concentrated more time training for Materialization. Let's say the amount that his defensive Nen-App can reduce is around 500.

Let's first get 110% of BBI's 6000. 6600.

Then let's subtract 500, which is gotten from Kurapika's defensive Nen-App, 6600 - 500 = 6100.

6100 is way too big for Kurapika to have only suffered a fracture. The forearm should have been torn away at the very least.

Then let's factor in your understanding of Emperor Time, which is:

"While in Emperor Time, Kurapika is able to use a Hatsu at 100% efficiency. Doesn't affects the levels."

You say it "doesn't affects the levels", so Emperor Time stays at Level 5, but it's just raised to 100% of Level 5.

Bringing Reinforcement to 100% Level 5 from whatever it's at won't do much to buffer the damage. There's still an undeniably monstrous difference which, in this example, would amount to 6100, since I've already assumed in this example that Kurapika is at 100% of Level 5. A fracture shouldn't be an accurate reflection of this number.

There is another flaw with your capless Hatsu Level model.

In the example, Kurapika is at Level 5 Reinforcement. This Reinforcement Level is proportional to Kurapika's Materialization Level. Kurapika can only reach 60% of Reinforcement in terms of Hatsu Level. So Level 5 is 60% or lower than 60%.

If Reinforcement Level 5 is 60%, then that means Kurapika is around Level 9 or 10 for Materialization. Which should not be because that would put him amongst the middle-class Nen-Users (you say the beasts are around Level 17-20).

If Reinforcement Level 5 is lower than 60%, then that means Kurapika is around Level 10 and up for Materialization. It shouldn't be because that'll put him closer to Ubo in terms of mastery of innate Hatsu and would put him at the level of a "beast".

whereas, putting the Hatsu Level and Level Percentage caps at the following levels,

Level 10 100% for your innate Hatsu (Materialization for Kurapika)
Level 8 80% for your adjacent Hatsus (Transformation for Kurapika, except it's 0 for Specialization)
Level 6 60% for distant Hatsus (Reinforcement and Manipulation for Kurapika)
Level 4 40% for opposite Hatsus (Emission for Kurapika)

would neatly explain how Kurapika ended up only fracturing his arm by BBI.

Let's use sample numbers again.

Let's retain the Conditions. 90% for Kurapika and 80% for Ubo.

Let's give Kurapika Level 1 for Reinforcement, and give Ubo Level 7 for Reinforcement.

Let's also already assume that Kurapika is under Emperor Time, giving him 100% of Reinforcement Level 1.

(80 + 70) - (90 + 10)

= (150) - (100)

= 50%.

Then let's retain our sample numbers for actual BBI and Kurapika's Nen-App defense. We have 6000 for BBI and 500 for Kurapika's Nen-Defense.

Because of the huge 50% Damage Reduction, BBI's 6000 becomes 3000. We further subtract Kurapika's Nen-defense of 500 and it becomes a manageable 2500. Still looks big, but it's closer to only getting a fracture.

Don't agree with Kurapika and Ubo's Reinforcement Level gap? Raise Kurapika's Reinforcement Level in a way that considers Reinforcement is only 60% of Materialization's 100%, and then lower Ubo's Reinforcement level. What do you get? A number that is closer to Kurapika only getting a fracture than anything else when you don't have a Hatsu Level cap.

This is basic math stuff, folks, nothing too fancy. The explanation might be long but it's nothing too complex. It should be pretty to realize that with Hatsu Levels caps, Kurapika will only get a fracture from a BBI.

And to lvl 1 to lvl50 the difference in experience is WAY vast. It just doesn't require the same to reach from lvl 1 to lvl 2 as lvl10 to lvl11. So for all we know, most users with experience are at level 10-11, beginners in lvl 1 to 5 and beasts are at lvl17-20. Of course, this is just an assumption but it's only to show my point.

I used your numbers with some sample numbers for BBI and Kurapika's Nen-defense, and it shows Kurapika should have at least lost his arm.

Oh, BTW, what you said here is a classic example of something that has "NO EVIDENCE", "ANYWHERE IN THE MANGA".

Not exactly. While in Emperor Time, Kurapika is able to use a Hatsu at 100% efficiency. Doesn't affects the levels. And that's you biggest flaw in your thinking.

Spoiler

Read D again, then read my post again. It's clear that Kurapika's Emission Level didn't go higher than Level 4, which is his current Emission Level, but it did go up to 100% from 40%. That is exactly what I said, and that is exacty what's shown.

If it so happened that Kurapika's Emission Level in the page was Level 3 instead of Level 4, what do you think will happen in a Red-Eyes condition? Does it go above Level 3 to Level 4? No, it will just go to 100% of Level 3.

No flaw there.

It's not like Emperor Time is going to help Kurapika survive BBI if there are no Hatsu Level caps, anyway.

We know that energy is equal to e=m.c2. I know Togashi wont use it, but the total aura focused in point is equal to the total aura used, that being Ten or Ren.

D-did you just invoke "e=m.c2"? Then that means... I lose!

But seriously, Ten or Ren is not the "the total aura used". They're just Nen-apps that use up some of your AOP t defend from attacks and strengthen your own attacks.

And I'm reading with eyes

You... Y-you don't say...?