Theory Law's Plan

[kkck]

I think we should expect such feats from any " great " pirate like WB, Kaido etc
But the weird thing is that Kaido's execution always failed for some reason... WB was durable yes, but it doesn't mean he didn't get stabbed or what not, although it could be the work of Haki but that doesn't match with what Kaido has been doing (aka looking to die)

You are right, the manga does make the point that the executions simply failed and kaido was uninjured. Blades not working, the ropes not holding.... Realistically speaking haki is a perfectly good explanation for this however the implication would be that the world government for whatever reason did not use their stronger fighters to execute him.

 

[fastfonz]

I see some of it, but the nature of the crews is important. Both have compatible crews where they are kindhearted and it is important for them to help others, not just pillage and ransack. The main goal has to be something beyond what Rogers did. Maybe they fight, but I see their final goal as being something so monumental that having the support of various other "D's" will be important to Luffy. Law felt compelled to save Luffy in the great war. He could have let him die, and Luffy was the one that achieved Law's dream of taking down Flamingo. Luffy also seems to be increasingly transforming their political alliance into a friendship. If anything I see a small skirmish that gets resolved in a way that they decide to work together moving forward.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Blades not working, the ropes not holding....

It doesn't say that they didn't work, that'd be implying that he's extremely lucky. It says Chains broke, Blades shattered, and Spears snapped which alludes to the toughness of his body. In regards to spears and blades breaking, very much pointing to physical toughness of his body, chains possibly to do with his physical strength or weigh, bit questionable.

 

[Zehahaha]

It doesn't say that they didn't work, that'd be implying that he's extremely lucky. It says Chains broke, Blades shattered, and Spears snapped which alludes to the toughness of his body. In regards to spears and blades breaking, very much pointing to physical toughness of his body, chains possibly to do with his physical strength or weigh, bit questionable.

Even WB was stabbed and what not because of fodders, again the only explanation to this is Haki but it doesn't make sense since Kaido is looking to die
I mean, what would be the point of trying to suicide if he's gonna use Haki to save himself ?

So obviously his body is somehow special and unique, but we also know that WB wounded him judging from his scars

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Even WB was stabbed and what not because of fodders, again the only explanation to this is Haki but it doesn't make sense since Kaido is looking to die
I mean, what would be the point of trying to suicide if he's gonna use Haki to save himself ?

So obviously his body is somehow special and unique, but we also know that WB wounded him judging from his scars

The way I see it, for him to even have been chained, stabbed and slashed at, he'd have to be in a state of incapacitation and vulnerable first of all, or subdued at the very least. In my opinion, all these attempts to kill him failed while incapacitated, 'm sure he didn't just hand himself over just to get tortured since we're told he challenged the Marines and Emperors 18 times, so I'd assume he really must have been in a weakened state prior to the 1,000 tortures, Chaining, Spear stabs and Guillotine Blade decapitation attempts which are probably a part of the 40 death sentences he was subject to.

Spoiler: Kaido's Philosophy

Kaido's core belief is simply the inability to die...
"The Strong live...and the weak die!! That is the only law of this world".

What Emperor or Pirate King have been captured once talk-less of 18 times, defeated 7 times, and still been regarded as a force to be reckoned with? It does seem like pretty awful statistics, I doubt Whitebeard or Roger were captured or defeated, Roger was only apprehended when he gave himself over. In light of the statistics, I think the thing to derive out of them is the fact he survived them all which is what I think Oda is trying to emphasize as it's very unusual.

Going by Kaido's definition of strong, strength seems to mainly mean inability to die), and that's seemingly due to his fortress like body. Besides possessing a great naturally defensive body, he's probably not on par with the other Emperors in terms of offensive power to an extent, and that's possibly why he's lost some fights against the Emperors.

We see that Roger despite being the strongest could be easily stabbed as we see before death; Whitebeard, also stabbed by fodder and Squardo; Kaido on the other hand would likely survive such a thing due to his powerful body.

Perhaps, Kaido's suicidal hobby stems from testing his inability to die to determine if he's strong as he so believes, only the strong survive.

I'd have though Haki, but I doubt it especially with the fact he's most likely incapacitated or maybe even unconscious. I think it's the fact that he's physically a fortress that has him the epithet as the strongest creature, if it were Haki that were responsible for all his feats, I'd expect a more fitting title such as the strongest Armament Haki user alive?

 

[TitaniumOxide]

I hope Law stays an ally but also a rival at the same time. I want to see him and Luffy fight (with a great deal of their might), to help each other become more powerful. Not training but it essentially is. Training to adapt to a wide range of abilities is what I am thinking. Luffy gets his ass beat every time he fights vs a new ability but that doesn't have to be the case. He can learn to adapt quicker and Law can be one of the mediums for that.

I really don't see their alliance crumbling at anytime. In the end it will probably be revealed that calling Law the Surgeon of Death is wrong because that is what the world government and his enemies sees him as but actually he is the Surgeon of (eternal) Life. This has been shown a few times already. If he offers his immortal surgery to Luffy will probably pick his nose then deny it.

Side thought: What if along their journeys they actually meet someone who has had the immortal surgery done on them?

 

[ProGoddess]

Side thought: What if along their journeys they actually meet someone who has had the immortal surgery done on them?

It would really be plot twist, wouldn't it?

As for Luffy and Law, they will continue to be ally and friends. There isn't any sign of them breaking up so far. Thus, they should be fine for now.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Side thought: What if along their journeys they actually meet someone who has had the immortal surgery done on them?

I think some people are candidates for possibly being affected by the surgery:

Strongest candidate for me personally would be Dr. Kureha. We know the original user of the Ope Ope no Mi was a doctor, most likely from Drum Kingdom where a lot of doctors originate from, and with Dr. Kureha being a doctor who is 140+, it's possible she was acquainted with this doctor, plus she is also aware of the Will of D., I think she's very likely immortal.

 

[TitaniumOxide]

I mean some evidence is there but saying very likely seems like a stretch for Dr. Kureha right now. Now what would make such a immortal character interesting is if they got the surgery done during or before the void century...which would make them as old as zou...hmm

 

[ProGoddess]

There is always a possibility considering that the Ope Ope no Mi was formerly consumed by a doctor. We don't get to see many doctors gathered around in one place except in Drum Island. It is also a place where some of the best doctors came from. Coincidentally Dr Kureha comes from this island and is one of the best (if not the best) doctors there. She is also a very senior one, in age, skills and experience. She gives me the impression that she knows more than what she tells us. I wouldn't be surprised if the previous doctor who ate the Ope Ope no Mi came from Drum island. Assuming that this doctor existed in Drum island, then I suppose that Dr Kureha may have known him/her. Whether if she is immortal or not, it is still a question mark. But considering her old age and is still having a vibrant life and spirit, it is no wonder that some may think she is immortal.

Actually, this is very interesting. I'd love to have such plot twist.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I mean some evidence is there but saying very likely seems like a stretch for Dr. Kureha right now. Now what would make such a immortal character interesting is if they got the surgery done during or before the void century...which would make them as old as zou...hmm

If such a character who was as ancient as a millenia did come to light, then that'd be the case. At the moment, based on all the known characters, she ticks a lot of flags that would have her considered as a possible immortal until more characters are unveiled which will happen as the story progresses.

There is always a possibility considering that the Ope Ope no Mi was formerly consumed by a doctor.

There was indeed a doctor who consumed it, haha.

Spoiler: C.765

It's either the doctor died and the fruit spawned, or he gave up his life to offer one immortality. I did consider Shakki, she's not aged in a bit, and we still have to ask why her? We don't know enough unfortunately.

We have characters like the WB Pirates who haven't aged at all like Shakki when compared to images from chapter 0 to Marineford arc which is a 20 year distance, they're literally unchanged, so I guess visuals isn't the most reliable way to judge.

 

[mr_smokey]

From the reveal of the Supernovas, I got the impression that while the others are important, they would simply be 'grand fodder' characters for the story with Kid and Law being Luffy's main rivals for OP other than major established antagonists like the Yonko and BB Pirates.

So I expect rivalry between them, but I also can see them respecting each other and not playing dirty tricks to win.

 

[Sakazuki]

Can expect more of this since new alliances and unforeseen betrayals is the theme of this arc; whose to say Law won't betray Luffy? more so when he's playing a patient game.

I don't think that Law will betray Luffy. First, the seat that he talks about probably is the seat of a sichibukai, which he accomplished. Second, we saw his history and know why he wanted to be a sichi, and tha's why I think that he will never betray Luffy, as he is the mand who defeated his nemesis, the one who killed his mentor.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I don't think that Law will betray Luffy. First, the seat that he talks about probably is the seat of a sichibukai, which he accomplished. Second, we saw his history and know why he wanted to be a sichi, and tha's why I think that he will never betray Luffy, as he is the mand who defeated his nemesis, the one who killed his mentor.

The seat of Shichibukai isn't how one obtains One Piece, it can lead to it, but it's not. As soon as he got what he wanted, he left his position. He did tell his crew that One Piece isn't going anywhere, so it's quite clear he intends on getting One Piece and everything he's done up till now, is with that goal in mind.

And if someone is going for the same goal as Luffy, it means they'll have to fight eventually. Luffy even defeated Coby whom he considers a friend, and yet, is the man who promises to capture him; they're friends, but rivals at the same time. There's no reason why Law can't be such.

Law isn't one of the 3 main Supernova to simply become a fan of Luffy like Barto, Law is a man whose crew-mates expect him to reach great heights, not to be overshadowed or work with the premise of helping someone reach a goal which is what Luffy has his crew and fleet for; Law is not a part of this fleet, just an allied partner to take down a Yonko because that's what is required to find One Piece.

We can't forget this is an alliance, and alliances are made if the interest of both parties as met. As of now, everything is going well, they have increased their allies and it is ultimately leading to Kaido's defeat which was the goal from the onset, so the alliance is still on course as far as Law is concerned. He's still a Pirate nonetheless, and Law is a very smart one who plays a game of chess, and takes his time.

Even his meeting with Luffy was coincidence, nothing planned, and the fact that he was already working on his plan even before Luffy showed up, implies he was looking to form an alliance with any Supernova who wanted to take down a Yonko; Kid and co. only formed their alliance that very day, so whose to say he won't have joined them had fate not joined Law with Luffy?

Betrayal is still very much a possibility for me, and more so due to his position, it'd be awful to waste Law's potential on simply being another character rooting for Luffy, there's enough of that already. Law is also yet to live up to his epithet, he's supposed to be cruel, it's about time he does himself Justice.

 

[Zehahaha]

I think you're reading too much into this, Law's existence was shaped by his goal of revenge, either by destroying everything at first or his revenge against DD

There's no way he will betray Luffy at this point no matter what, simply put he isn't that kind of guy, I mean he trusted Luffy to the point he altered his original plan of "killing" DD... He was so sure that Luffy would take DD down

Surgeon of death ? Well yeah he is, his Ope Ope no Mi is the reason behind that name but he's clearly not cruel... If anything he's similar to Zoro rather than being plain cruel

Also it is still unclear if he really wanted to bring down Kaido, if anything it seems that he just wanted to use Luffy to bring down DD and that's it, there's no follow up in his plan after defeating DD (sure he didn't mention his plan in details but still), imagine if Law's plan went exactly as he said, destroying the factory and getting the fuck out, what would've happened ? No allies, DD getting CC back means he could start the SMILE production a bit later on. It was a flawed plan initially

But also, he could've easily fucked with DD just by kidnapping CC and running away, since the SAD seems more previous than the factory itself IMO
Basically, I'm not sure if Law himself has the desire to be PK just like Luffy or Kid who explicitly mentioned it

 

[ProGoddess]

I don't think that Law will betray Luffy. First, the seat that he talks about probably is the seat of a sichibukai, which he accomplished. Second, we saw his history and know why he wanted to be a sichi, and tha's why I think that he will never betray Luffy, as he is the mand who defeated his nemesis, the one who killed his mentor.

The seat of Shichibukai isn't how one obtains One Piece, it can lead to it, but it's not. As soon as he got what he wanted, he left his position. He did tell his crew that One Piece isn't going anywhere, so it's quite clear he intends on getting One Piece and everything he's done up till now, is with that goal in mind.

And if someone is going for the same goal as Luffy, it means they'll have to fight eventually. Luffy even defeated Coby whom he considers a friend, and yet, is the man who promises to capture him; they're friends, but rivals at the same time. There's no reason why Law can't be such.

Law isn't one of the 3 main Supernova to simply become a fan of Luffy like Barto, Law is a man whose crew-mates expect him to reach great heights, not to be overshadowed or work with the premise of helping someone reach a goal which is what Luffy has his crew and fleet for; Law is not a part of this fleet, just an allied partner to take down a Yonko because that's what is required to find One Piece.

We can't forget this is an alliance, and alliances are made if the interest of both parties as met. As of now, everything is going well, they have increased their allies and it is ultimately leading to Kaido's defeat which was the goal from the onset, so the alliance is still on course as far as Law is concerned. He's still a Pirate nonetheless, and Law is a very smart one who plays a game of chess, and takes his time.

Even his meeting with Luffy was coincidence, nothing planned, and the fact that he was already working on his plan even before Luffy showed up, implies he was looking to form an alliance with any Supernova who wanted to take down a Yonko; Kid and co. only formed their alliance that very day, so whose to say he won't have joined them had fate not joined Law with Luffy?

Betrayal is still very much a possibility for me, and more so due to his position, it'd be awful to waste Law's potential on simply being another character rooting for Luffy, there's enough of that already. Law is also yet to live up to his epithet, he's supposed to be cruel, it's about time he does himself Justice.

I think you're reading too much into this, Law's existence was shaped by his goal of revenge, either by destroying everything at first or his revenge against DD

There's no way he will betray Luffy at this point no matter what, simply put he isn't that kind of guy, I mean he trusted Luffy to the point he altered his original plan of "killing" DD... He was so sure that Luffy would take DD down

Surgeon of death ? Well yeah he is, his Ope Ope no Mi is the reason behind that name but he's clearly not cruel... If anything he's similar to Zoro rather than being plain cruel

Also it is still unclear if he really wanted to bring down Kaido, if anything it seems that he just wanted to use Luffy to bring down DD and that's it, there's no follow up in his plan after defeating DD (sure he didn't mention his plan in details but still), imagine if Law's plan went exactly as he said, destroying the factory and getting the fuck out, what would've happened ? No allies, DD getting CC back means he could start the SMILE production a bit later on. It was a flawed plan initially

But also, he could've easily fucked with DD just by kidnapping CC and running away, since the SAD seems more previous than the factory itself IMO
Basically, I'm not sure if Law himself has the desire to be PK just like Luffy or Kid who explicitly mentioned it

This is an intriguing topic on Law.

It is hard to predict on what's up with Law and how faithful an ally he is to Luffy in the long run. But one thing is clear in him is that he isn't as defensive as he was before, and not hostile (or not as hostile) anymore. In fact he has become friendlier to Luffy and his crew, and even to the people who are friendly to Luffy. Comparing to the first time Law and Luffy met, their embarkment in Dressrosa and subsequently to Zou, Law has gradually changed his attitude and mindset of Luffy. Law is also an observer who watches movements around and surrounding him. I have a feeling that Bepo and his crew arriving in Zou Island may have a certain inference on Law, and knowing that his crew are well-taken care of by the minks should have an impact on him, though a guy full of pride wouldn't want to show and admit it.

Thinking through of what Law has gone through so far since he was a kid trying to be a suicide bomber after his family died and town destroyed, the time he met Rosinante which then become one of his saddest moments in his life, alliance with Straw Hat Pirates, taking down Doflamingo (together) and finally his journey to Zou and meeting up with his crew again (though he thought he could have died), it was indeed a long adventure for him. He is now continuing that journey with the Minks to Wano Kingdom. Perhaps he may have other intention like "taking down" Kaido just like how he thought of Doflamingo, but seriously he isn't so fixated on killing anymore, or rather I should say his revengeful nature isn't prevailing as much now as compared to the past. His change of heart may be seen as a joyful thing to Luffy. As we all know, he is considered as a nakama to Luffy. Just like Bellamy, even if the two of them would have to fight over something in the future, Luffy will always think of him as a nakama rather than an enemy.

Anyway, I'll moving the posts related to Law to a Law's thread in which everyone can continue the discussion. The chapter thread will be archiving soon.

Thanks for all of your insightful thoughts. Very fun reading them.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I think you're reading too much into this, Law's existence was shaped by his goal of revenge, either by destroying everything at first or his revenge against DD

There's no way he will betray Luffy at this point no matter what, simply put he isn't that kind of guy, I mean he trusted Luffy to the point he altered his original plan of "killing" DD... He was so sure that Luffy would take DD down

Surgeon of death ? Well yeah he is, his Ope Ope no Mi is the reason behind that name but he's clearly not cruel... If anything he's similar to Zoro rather than being plain cruel

Also it is still unclear if he really wanted to bring down Kaido, if anything it seems that he just wanted to use Luffy to bring down DD and that's it, there's no follow up in his plan after defeating DD (sure he didn't mention his plan in details but still), imagine if Law's plan went exactly as he said, destroying the factory and getting the fuck out, what would've happened ? No allies, DD getting CC back means he could start the SMILE production a bit later on. It was a flawed plan initially

But also, he could've easily fucked with DD just by kidnapping CC and running away, since the SAD seems more previous than the factory itself IMO
Basically, I'm not sure if Law himself has the desire to be PK just like Luffy or Kid who explicitly mentioned it

Revision​

Done some revision on Law's agenda from Marineford till now, and while I agree with everything I've written in the original post, I have revised my views, and reviewed his comments and actions that led up to the conclusion.

Firstly...​

Couple thing that needs pointing out is, people who have gone for One Piece have always gone after Emperors:

• Crocodile went after Whitebeard.
  Spoiler

  
• Moriah went after Kaido.
  Spoiler

  

Therefore, Law who going after a Yonko is consistent with actions anyone who wants One Piece takes.

Law's Ambition​

Destroying the world was his goal before his days were numbered, and before Rocinante gifted him with prolonged life as well as transforming him from monster to Human. After Rocinante's death, the goal to destroy the world was diffused.

The only thing is, rather than destroy the world, he aimed to find One Piece which requires taking down a Yonko (being Kaido); of course this also includes the benefits of Joker getting killed by bearing the brunt of Kaido's anger; this is killing 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak.

It wouldn't really be any different from Luffy taking a detour to save Ace (essentially postponing meeting with the crew) or obtain Ace's Mera Mera no Mi, we still wouldn't say because of this sentimental detour and digression from objective, he's quit going after One Piece or meeting with his crew, no? Law's take down of Joker isn't any different.

Law ended the alliance once (essentially betrayed the SHs)​

Initially, when Law fought Joker over the bridge, he ended the alliance because he was simply using the SHs from the beginning, and he was ready to forfeit his life in the event he failed to get revenge; at this point in time, his objectives went out the window and his grudge/emotion took precedence over everything else.

Spoiler

After this fight, Law actually tells us why he became too pre-occupied with Joker (which Sanji pointed out): he got provoked, and this is why Law is warning Luffy to resist provocation if taking down Joker is to succeed; he makes reference to this by saying "If you don't keep your cool, your life will be forfeit just like me when I faced him before!". Bare in mind, in the lead up to this scene, it's actually not Law's idea to engage with Joker, but Luffy's.

Spoiler

Prior to the scene above where Law and Luffy are getting ready to engage Joker, and not long after Law was utterly beat down by Joker on the bridge/Green bit, Law has come back to his "senses" (well, he's become the pragmatist again and putting his emotions to the side).

He actually reminds Luffy who just promised to defeat Joker, that staying on course with the plan is best, somewhat hypocritical since he actually just tried to kill Joker, but we know he was provoked into doing so due to Joker's aptness at playing mind-games; so we see that Law actually was for sticking with the plan.

Spoiler

Luffy ironically, is now the one who is bent on taking down Joker, Law was essentially convinced by Luffy who absolutely insisted on taking down Joker.

Spoiler

It is after this scene that Law and Luffy decide to take down Joker as opposed to it being Kaido's doing, and devised the "Red Hawk" and "Gamma Knife" plan to kill Joker.

Spoiler

TL;DR: Ultimately, this proves that Law never abandoned the plan because Joker was his ONLY goal as most seem to believe, he simply got provoked into engaging Joker which Sanji wasn't aware of.

And there's only 1 reason why Law has faith in Luffy​

• The hints are here, he states that he's saving Luffy despite being an enemy because they have a "bond". What is this bond?
  Spoiler

  
• Also, when Rayleigh appears on Sabaody, he says the '"D" will always bring forth a storm'. Digressing a bit, but I believe this is a hint that Rayleigh is a "D", but the bond he's clearly talking about is the fact that he and Luffy are both from the "D" clan.
  Spoiler

  
• And when Joker asks, why he trusts the SHs so much? It's not that he trusts them per se, it's because of the "D" initial.
  Spoiler

  

Law clearly has some belief and faith in "D" initial and is hinting at this being part reason he saved Luffy despite considering him a future enemy.

Luffy at PH was coincidence​

I think its easy to assume that Law was waiting for Luffy, but we know how Luffy got to PH, it was simply coincidence:

• Luffy saw the Island that was most intriguing as it wasn't even recognized by the Log Pose, it's not like this meeting was planned to begin with.
  Spoiler

  
• Law also says, this meeting was luck, not planned.
  Spoiler

  
• Law without knowing of Luffy, was already proceeding with the necessary steps required to take down a Yonko, not something he conjured the moment Luffy appeared. This tells us he's really been planning extensively, and the very fact that he allied with Luffy whom he wasn't expecting was pure coincidence. It means he'd have allied with any formidable crew; alliances are mostly formed out of convenience.
  Spoiler

  
• Robin has also pointed out that such alliances usually end with betrayal.
  Spoiler

  

Law and Luffy may get on well, but that's just not reason for them to become Nakama. There are people whom Luffy respects such as Smoker and Coby, but anyone in his way is an enemy. We just can't forget that Law is a Captain with his own crew, and one of the 3 main Supernova at that. It would be rather anticlimactic for one such as Law to simply become another fan.

The only reason Law ever diverged from the plan was not because he was lying to Luffy about awnting to take down Kaido, but simply because he got provoked.

With that said, he's clearly a contender for One Piece and is likely to either split watys with Luffy or betray Luffy; ultimately, Law is still an enemy of Luffy, just like Coby and Smoker are.

--- Double Post Merged, May 9, 2016, Original Post Date: May 1, 2016 ---

Updated OP.