Discussion Luffy and Zoro

[Pirate Queen]

Like the Zoro and Sanji thread, this is the thread put in place to discuss Zoro and Luffy where it is about

Whose stronger?
They relationship?
Future developments?


I made it so that we don't derail other threads. My Base Luffy vs Zoro thread isn't the best place to discuss them overall. So I'm moving it here.

Adding a poll for the hell of it.

 

[nik87]

Just because he doesnt have Luffy's superior haki doesnt mean his CoA is useless. Zoro is still a mountain splitter, Nik. No one is taking it away from him. I'm not discrediting Zoro here. My goal is to get you to understand why what you are saying is inaccurate, which I expect to fail because you are far too stuck in putting Zoro > everyone.

While Zoro has been cutting coastlines and mountains Luffy has been fighting Yonko Commander and clashing with Yonko, getting real experience and upgrades. Luffy wasnt handed a pair of magic boxing gloves that help him train his haki, and it just so happen those boxing gloves were the only thing to hurt Kaido.

The issue is that you are trying to present this destruction from inside Haki as a better thing while we clearly have Rayleigh ignoring that ability and fighting with sword using regular Hardening and regular Haki flow release that Zoro does... And Kizaru isnt even a guy who is tough on the outside and yet he turned to something that is superior in combat - a sword. He was stalled by an Admiral while wanting to help the Strawhats and according to you he could have simply destroyed him from the inside from the distance...

"Clashing with Yonko..." if you are calling getting knocked out by single hit clashing then Kidd and Killer have also clashed with the same Yonko, the same Killer who was a joke to Zoro, humiliated being unable to pull his weapon out of Zoro's body. That's how relevant "clashing" with a Yonko is...
While Luffy has been playing with wild animals for 2 years Zoro has actually gone against the current WSS, unless you want to claim that he clashed with Perona for 2 years, or the monkeys which he defeated before training started or that he swung his sword into thin air for 2 years...
Also, he focused on a single type of Haki unlike Luffy who spread focus on 3 different and you question Zoro's being better...
It is obvious that Zoro returned from TS far better prepared than Luffy was due to better training partner and due to sole focus on the Haki that matters the most in combat.

 

[Pirate Queen]

The issue is that you are trying to present this destruction from inside Haki as a better thing while we clearly have Rayleigh ignoring that ability and fighting with sword using regular Hardening and regular Haki flow release that Zoro does... And Kizaru isnt even a guy who is tough on the outside and yet he turned to something that is superior in combat - a sword. He was stalled by an Admiral while wanting to help the Strawhats and according to you he could have simply destroyed him from the inside from the distance...

"Clashing with Yonko..." if you are calling getting knocked out by single hit clashing then Kidd and Killer have also clashed with the same Yonko, the same Killer who was a joke to Zoro, humiliated being unable to pull his weapon out of Zoro's body. That's how relevant "clashing" with a Yonko is...
While Luffy has been playing with wild animals for 2 years Zoro has actually gone against the current WSS, unless you want to claim that he clashed with Perona for 2 years, or the monkeys which he defeated before training started or that he swung his sword into thin air for 2 years...
Also, he focused on a single type of Haki unlike Luffy who spread focus on 3 different and you question Zoro's being better...
It is obvious that Zoro returned from TS far better prepared than Luffy was due to better training partner and due to sole focus on the Haki that matters the most in combat.

I'm not presenting it as a better form of Haki. Oda did... which is why its stated as a fact in the manga.

As for Rayliegh vs Kizaru, you are using a battle that is Pre timeskip where haki feats were questionable at best. It does appear Raliegh did use a form of advanced CoA because Kizaru did get cut on the cheek without direct contact.

There are many factors as to why Rayliegh didn't. The chiefest among them being that Oda hadn't thought of it being used for combat at that time. It is clear though it now has battle applications. I'm not Oda.

Throwing one back at you if Zoro new CoA in Alabasta why couldn't he hit Enel?

Answer because haki feats were sporadic pre timeskip

 

[nik87]

I'm not presenting it as a better form of Haki. Oda did... which is why its stated as a fact in the manga.
As for Rayliegh vs Kizaru, you are using a battle that is Pre timeskip where haki feats were questionable at best. It does appear Raliegh did use a form of advanced CoA because Kizaru did get cut on the cheek without direct contact.
There are many factors as to why Rayliegh didn't. The chiefest among them being that Oda hadn't thought of it being used for combat at that time. It is clear though it now has battle applications. I'm not Oda.

Throwing one back at you if Zoro new CoA in Alabasta why couldn't he hit Enel?
Answer because haki feats were sporadic pre timeskip

Better, in what way? Only shows weakness and inability to deal with dragon scales while swordsmen go through those scales with regular hardening and regular haki flow. Also, proven as fact by the manga and also proven by Rayleigh not using it against Kizaru, because for a swordsman, that is inferior combat style. And no, it is not used because Haki was questionable since both blasting and destruction from inside were already used by that point by Sentomaru and Rayleigh. As I explained several times, that combat style is inferior and swordsmen will never pick that over a sword. It is that simple.
The cut on the cheek is most likely when he cut him off from going after SHs and if not it is regular haki release, not destruction from inside.

Because he associated Haki with cutting steel and Enel, from my memory, wasnt made of steel. Also, from my memory, there was no teacher who explained him that such power is the go-to ability against Logias. Besides, he only had 1 swing at Enel and it was over.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Literally nothing but assumptions that are directly contradicted by the manga.

Sorry pal

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 4, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 4, 2019 ---

Notice how you haven't put up a single panel to defend you case... because you have no facts Nik. Only assumptions and a "Wait and see" outlook.

 

[nik87]

assumptions that are directly contradicted by the manga

Back these claims up?
Everything I said is literally in the manga.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

I dont think Zoro is very far behind Luffy, he just knows his place as first mate.

That here always bothered me. Because it implies that if Luffy couldnt done this, Zoro atleast could have done it. We also know that Luffysnew powerup is something Zoro/Swordsman of Wano can use.

As lf right now Luffys best point is his devilfruitmastery combined with haki, which makes him a monster in his ownright and very flexible. Zoro is always a one trick pony...and very efficient at that.

So while Zoro can do probably more damage to one person and bas the deadlier CoA(maybe even Conqueror), Luffy is flexible as hell. Snakeman... bounceman... future sight... you cant predict him.

As of their relationship. Zoro was the first to join and will be the last to leave Luffys side.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Back these claims up?
Everything I said is literally in the manga.

Zoro having better CoA than Luffy certainly isnt in the manga.

You said Zoro is supposed to have the best CoA in the history of One Piece... but Luffy learned a form far more advance on the matter of a WEEK.

I couldn't imagine how insulted Zoro fans are. I can see why you want to ignore actual manga to keep up you.

Find a panel that refutes this

SHOWING WITHOUT A DOUBT that Luffy's haki is > Zoro's haki

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 4, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 4, 2019 ---

. We also know that Luffysnew powerup is something Zoro/Swordsman of Wano can use.
.

No they can't Luffy's haki is more advanced that that

 

[nik87]

Zoro having better CoA than Luffy certainly isnt in the manga.
You said Zoro is supposed to have the best CoA in the history of One Piece... but Luffy learned a form far more advance on the matter of a WEEK.

You are now moving the goal post because those claims have nothing to do with my response for which you said assumptions which are contradicted.
Stay on that specific post and show me what is an assumption and what is contradicted because, as I said, everything I mentioned, is in the manga.

I couldn't imagine how insulted Zoro fans are. I can see why you want to ignore actual manga to keep up you.

Insulted about what? About Haki application that Zoro has no use for? You are imagining things.

Find a panel that refutes this

SHOWING WITHOUT A DOUBT that Luffy's haki is > Zoro's haki

Far more powerful. For who? Luffy. A barehanded combatant. Manga shows Rayleigh who possesses the same ability still resort to the sword.

inability to deal with dragon scales

Wanting blasting in hope to destroy scales, gets destruction from inside to avoid dealing with scales.

while swordsmen go through those scales

Oden has gone through the scales.

both blasting and destruction from inside were already used by that point by Sentomaru and Rayleigh.

Sentomaru blasts Luffy, Rayleigh destroys Camie's collar from the inside.

that combat style is inferior and swordsmen will never pick that over a sword.

Only a foolish swordsman would abandon the ultimate offense and defense and fight barehanded instead. You wont watch that movie.

The cut on the cheek is most likely when he cut him off from going after SHs and if not it is regular haki release, not destruction from inside.

Destruction from inside doesnt leave clean external cut.

Because he associated Haki with cutting steel and Enel, from my memory, wasnt made of steel. Also, from my memory, there was no teacher who explained him that such power is the go-to ability against Logias. Besides, he only had 1 swing at Enel and it was over.

Literally, as I described.

All things are in manga, none of it is an assumption.

 

[Pirate Queen]

You are now moving the goal post because those claims have nothing to do with my response for which you said assumptions which are contradicted.
Stay on that specific post and show me what is an assumption and what is contradicted because, as I said, everything I mentioned, is in the manga.

Insulted about what? About Haki application that Zoro has no use for? You are imagining things.


Far more powerful. For who? Luffy. A barehanded combatant. Manga shows Rayleigh who possesses the same ability still resort to the sword.



Wanting blasting in hope to destroy scales, gets destruction from inside to avoid dealing with scales.

Oden has gone through the scales.

Sentomaru blasts Luffy, Rayleigh destroys Camie's collar from the inside.

Only a foolish swordsman would abandon the ultimate offense and defense and fight barehanded instead. You wont watch that movie.

Destruction from inside doesnt leave clean external cut.

Literally, as I described.

All things are in manga, none of it is an assumption.

Your the one assuming this new CoA cant be utilized by a swordsman!

Show me a single panel stating a swordsman has no use for internal damaging haki? Are you that bad at trolling?

And let's not forget Oden needed a magic sword to cut Kaido... Like Zoro does.

 

[nik87]

Your the one assuming this new CoA cant be utilized by a swordsman!
Show me a single panel stating a swordsman has no use for internal damaging haki? Are you that bad at trolling?
And let's not forget Oden needed a magic sword to cut Kaido... Like Zoro does.

You are just trolling at this point.
Magic sword, lol. Do explain me how swordsmen would use that Haki and why Rayleigh and Kizaru who were capable of blasting still resorted to sword fight despite Kizaru not even being a swordsman.
I just understand how sword fights work and you expect them to either drop sword to use that destruction or to shoot that destruction through a sword or something... It is not happening. They dont accept excuses, they take pride in their combat style and not being able to cut something and resorting to destruction from inside is an insult.

 

[Pirate Queen]

You are just trolling at this point.
Magic sword, lol. Do explain me how swordsmen would use that Haki and why Rayleigh and Kizaru who were capable of blasting still resorted to sword fight despite Kizaru not even being a swordsman.
I just understand how sword fights work and you expect them to either drop sword to use that destruction or to shoot that destruction through a sword or something... It is not happening. They dont accept excuses, they take pride in their combat style and not being able to cut something and resorting to destruction from inside is an insult.

So you have no panels to back up your claim?

Im just asking for proof here.

Zoro would use that haki to slice Kaido up from the inside... like Luffy punching from the inside. That concept of "Internal Damage" seems lost to you. Any swordsman with that form of haki could kill anything of their opponent had no defense for it.

Please provide proof of a swordsman backing your claim that they would never use the Best form of CoA because of their pride as swordsman? (Probably the most ridiculous claim you have made yet)

 

[Shasha23]

Your the one assuming this new CoA cant be utilized by a swordsman!

Show me a single panel stating a swordsman has no use for internal damaging haki? Are you that bad at trolling?

And let's not forget Oden needed a magic sword to cut Kaido... Like Zoro does.

It cant because swordsman cut they do damage within!

Show me 1 panel saying this haki is useful to swordsman? i think your just in denial at this point and refuse to face facts.

Yes he needs magic katana like some need magic abilty powers like Luffy.

 

[Pirate Queen]

"Destruction from the inside is an insult"

This is already the best quote of 2020 and it's still December

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 4, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 4, 2019 ---

It cant because swordsman cut they do damage within!

Show me 1 panel saying this haki is useful to swordsman? i think your just in denial at this point and refuse to face facts.

Yes he needs magic katana like some need magic abilty powers like Luffy.

Swordsmen need to pierce the surface for their attacks to go within.

There you go. A swordsman could attack with their swords and that attack would transfer into the person they are attacking.

This is the proof lol I already showed this to you!

 

[Shasha23]

So you have no panels to back up your claim?

Im just asking for proof here.

Zoro would use that haki to slice Kaido up from the inside... like Luffy punching from the inside. That concept of "Internal Damage" seems lost to you. Any swordsman with that form of haki could kill anything of their opponent had no defense for it.

Please provide proof of a swordsman backing your claim that they would never use the Best form of CoA because of their pride as swordsman? (Probably the most ridiculous claim you have made yet)

WHY would he? you seem to think swordsman dont need to cut anymore is that it?

They dont use blast but they strive to achieve the black blade, the highest for of COA in the whole story!

 

[HereNThere]

For now there isn't...

Ayy, that's not what you say in an debate when someone requests proof.

 

[Fox666]

Shusui was a black blade, but it didn't appeared to have anything special to it other than being a high tier sword.

I think it's obvious Luffy Armament Haki is on an entirely different level than Zoro, just like his Observation Haki is above Sanji.

 

[Fox666]

I don't get what's the relevance of hitting a Logia?

If you know Haki, you can hit a Logia. It has nothing to do with strength.

Speaking of, Zoro didn't bothered in using Haki to do more than a cut on Monet's cheek.

Because of it becoming a black blade, it was indestructible and its power dwarfed wado and sandai.

Shusui was a Great Grade sword, just like Wado.

Going by what Hitetsu said, the grades already include that Shusui was made into a black blade, and it may have been of a lower grade before.

I don't think anything indicate that Shusui was indestructible. I assume it would break against a Supreme Grade.

 

[Shasha23]

I don't get what's the relevance of hitting a Logia?

He hit a logia without touching her, this is the haki Luffy has been learning only now in Wano!

If you know Haki, you can hit a Logia. It has nothing to do with strength.

Speaking of, Zoro didn't bothered in using Haki to do more than a cut on Monet's cheek.

He used advanced haki to hit her, thats what the big deal is

Shusui was a Great Grade sword, just like Wado.

Going by what Hitetsu said, the grades already include that Shusui was made into a black blade, and it may have been of a lower grade before.

I don't think anything indicate that Shusui was indestructible. I assume it would break against a Supreme Grade.

Yes we know this.

Hitetsu said the blade can increase "rank" not "grade" the more famous it is the higher its rank in will be, it wont change from 21 great swords to suddenly being one of the 11, this is probably why Yoru is the strongest swords, it is 1 of the 12 but because Mihawk increased it fam by making it a black blade it became the highest rank in its grade!

Zoro said it was an indestructible blade

 

[Fox666]

He hit a logia without touching her, this is the haki Luffy has been learning only now in Wano!

Quite sure he used an air slash...