Discussion Magic Power Types

[Demonspeed]

At first I thought Tristan was unable to cure diseases because his skill level with Ark wasn't good enough but if even after 2 years of training he is unable to I guess it's just his nature.

He is the Knight of Plague so maybe he has something similar to curses or diseases as Innate Magic.

 

[OtakuFreak]

At first I thought Tristan was unable to cure diseases because his skill level with Ark wasn't good enough but if even after 2 years of training he is unable to I guess it's just his nature.

It's most definitely an issue with his skill level. I'd argue Tristan isn't even close to the level of an archangel yet, even compared to the weaker two. Sariel was able to heal the ''incurable disease'' of his vessel. Stronger Goddesses like Elizabeth & Mael have achieved stronger healing feats.

Definitely seems like Tristan just isn't strong enough yet.

 

[Demonspeed]

It's most definitely an issue with his skill level. I'd argue Tristan isn't even close to the level of an archangel yet, even compared to the weaker two. Sariel was able to heal the ''incurable disease'' of his vessel. Stronger Goddesses like Elizabeth & Mael have achieved stronger healing feats.

Definitely seems like Tristan just isn't strong enough yet.

Skill and strength are different I don't believe more powerful Ark means that you can use more or better Healing techniques.

He is comparing himself directly to his mother(which makes more sense) and says he can't cure diseases. It's not like Tristan lacks talent or training. If it's been an issue for two years I doubt it's because he is lacking in skill. We know he focuses on his Goddess powers and neglects his Demon ones. This and the fact that he is the Knight of Plague could mean something.

 

[kkck]

Maybe in tristan's case he is limited by his innate darkness? As in, his darkness limits his ability to heal others? As powerful as tristan is, we know that holding darkness and light within you can be problematic. Mael lost his mind over this. Chaos is a combination of both light and darkness and the balance within beings of those two forces is integral to it's preference for humans over other beings. Add to that, tristan so far has not managed to use his light and darkness simultaneously. His light wasn't strong enough and when he released his darkness he lost most of his mind.

As for the death, plague and whatnot thing.. I think this will make more sense once the knights make it into camelot. They are meant to, presumably, destroy camelot. The plagues they are supposed to unleash will probably make sense in there.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Skill and strength are different I don't believe more powerful Ark means that you can use more or better Healing techniques.

It should be correlational though? Stronger magic should infer stronger healing capabilities and I don't think the ''skill'' of the user really matters as much as the raw power. An amnesiac Elizabeth performed great healing feats without any awareness of skill, as an example. The only ''skill'' which could be accounted for is Elizabeth's innate magical ability, but it's not like the archangels needed one to perform better healing feats than Tristan's.

He is comparing himself directly to his mother(which makes more sense) and says he can't cure diseases. It's not like Tristan lacks talent or training. If it's been an issue for two years I doubt it's because he is lacking in skill. We know he focuses on his Goddess powers and neglects his Demon ones. This and the fact that he is the Knight of Plague could mean something.

All of the highest ranking Goddesses were over 3000-4000 years of age and Mael's growth seemed like a couple of decades at a minimum. I think expecting Tristan to equal or surpass someone like Elizabeth in magic in just 2 years is a massive stretch. He has insane potential given his heritage and will definitely surpass every Goddess, maybe even the Supreme Deity at some point, but 2 years is really not a lot of time for him to go up the ladder. Especially when non-humans experience the passage of time much differently.

Maybe in tristan's case he is limited by his innate darkness? As in, his darkness limits his ability to heal others? As powerful as tristan is, we know that holding darkness and light within you can be problematic. Mael lost his mind over this. Chaos is a combination of both light and darkness and the balance within beings of those two forces is integral to it's preference for humans over other beings. Add to that, tristan so far has not managed to use his light and darkness simultaneously. His light wasn't strong enough and when he released his darkness he lost most of his mind.

Maybe his darkness is holding him back, we don't know, but by that logic then the reverse should be true - but it doesn't seem like his demonic powers are held back at all. Regardless of what is the problem, Tristan should eventually overcome it since his natural evolution is to gain the power of Chaos by combining both of his heritages. Which by then, goddess healing is nothing compared to reality warping injuries away.

 

[kkck]

Maybe his darkness is holding him back, we don't know, but by that logic then the reverse should be true - but it doesn't seem like his demonic powers are held back at all. Regardless of what is the problem, Tristan should eventually overcome it since his natural evolution is to gain the power of Chaos by combining both of his heritages. Which by then, goddess healing is nothing compared to reality warping injuries away.

Hmm, we don't know that though. Why does tristan lose control to begin with? The only other reference of a demon losing control is meliodas and the series was never even remotely clear on why that happened. it wasn't due to the amount of power because this became less an issue as meliodas grew stronger. Later in the story it just seemed like meliodas' loss of control was simply him getting conventionally pissed and the world being made out of cardboard And tristan is probably already in the ballpark of some commandments at least. Tristan losing control over his darkness could be related to his light half.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Why does tristan lose control to begin with?

because demon power is BAD!!!!! /s

I don't know why, guess Nakaba got lazy and just copied Meliodas issues onto him.

Could've gone down the Todoroki from MHA route, where if you don't balance both powers well, you suffer. But nah, goddess = good, demon = bad.

 

[kkck]

It's pretty clear nakaba is not currently framing goddess powers as good and darkness powers as evil.

 

[Demonspeed]

Tristan is definitely Commandment level even without his Demon powers.

Goddess powers good and Demon powers bad is true to a certain extent in this series I'd say. Especially the latter. Goddess powers can be seen as good because they have perfect healing techniques and can cure stuff, literally White Magic. But they have messed up stuff like Cheat Hope as well.

Demon powers heighten negative emotions like anger and violence. Mel was "evil" before because he couldn't control his extremely amount of PoD. We have seen Guila having control issues as well in this Liones arc. Tristan has the same issues because he inherited his high amount of PoD from Mel. He also said he felt pain after healing and it's consistent with what Mel said about PoD. You can heal but the pain doesn't disappear.

It should be correlational though? Stronger magic should infer stronger healing capabilities and I don't think the ''skill'' of the user really matters as much as the raw power. An amnesiac Elizabeth performed great healing feats without any awareness of skill, as an example. The only ''skill'' which could be accounted for is Elizabeth's innate magical ability, but it's not like the archangels needed one to perform better healing feats than Tristan's.



All of the highest ranking Goddesses were over 3000-4000 years of age and Mael's growth seemed like a couple of decades at a minimum. I think expecting Tristan to equal or surpass someone like Elizabeth in magic in just 2 years is a massive stretch. He has insane potential given his heritage and will definitely surpass every Goddess, maybe even the Supreme Deity at some point, but 2 years is really not a lot of time for him to go up the ladder. Especially when non-humans experience the passage of time much differently.

I think it's correlational to a certain extent but in the end they are different things. Goddess powers include offensive techniques, healing techniques, mind manipulation technique even.

For example it was pretty clear that Elizabeth was peerless in terms of healing. Techniques like Let There be Light and Passion of Jonah have only been used by her. Elizabeth showed great healing skills early but she showed more once she recovered her powers.

Tristan has a powerful technique like Falling Stars so if you are correct isn't it weird that he is unable to use even Invigorate at low level?

Maybe in tristan's case he is limited by his innate darkness? As in, his darkness limits his ability to heal others? As powerful as tristan is, we know that holding darkness and light within you can be problematic. Mael lost his mind over this. Chaos is a combination of both light and darkness and the balance within beings of those two forces is integral to it's preference for humans over other beings. Add to that, tristan so far has not managed to use his light and darkness simultaneously. His light wasn't strong enough and when he released his darkness he lost most of his mind.

As for the death, plague and whatnot thing.. I think this will make more sense once the knights make it into camelot. They are meant to, presumably, destroy camelot. The plagues they are supposed to unleash will probably make sense in there.

Difference is that Mael is a born Goddess while Tristan is a Nephilim. Tristan seems to have the ability to stay in 100% Goddess mode or 100% Demon mode. In Goddess mode he shouldn't have this issue.

I think the Goddess Arts can't all be used by everyone. Even though some techniques are common, what you can learn depend on your talent at birth besides basic Goddess Healing and Ark.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Goddess powers good and Demon powers bad is true to a certain extent in this series I'd say. Especially the latter. Goddess powers can be seen as good because they have perfect healing techniques and can cure stuff, literally White Magic. But they have messed up stuff like Cheat Hope as well.

Including the spell Jelamet used on the goddess sisters, the ''bad'' spells of the clan seem quite keen on ''disciplining'' people and keeping them subservient.

Wish it was an aspect of the Goddess Clan that was expanded on. Their main fault seems to be their endless racism for demons, yet there's clear evidence to show that they'll have no qualms abusing their own if they aren't obedient.

Demon powers heighten negative emotions like anger and violence. Mel was "evil" before because he couldn't control his extremely amount of PoD.

Yet, it's never explained why having high PoD makes you evil, and JUST Meliodas (and Tristan now) evil. It's not even consistent in itself, because Meliodas became evil to use his assault mode powers at their fullest, but then he's able to awaken powers much stronger and stay completely ''good''. It's not as if the emotions plot made any different, since he had plenty in Corand before getting triggered.

And why just PoD? PoL should have the equivalent effect really if there's too much of it. You'd think Mael with the sun grace at noon would be ''evil'' with how much PoL he'd have, but that's only an Escanor problem for some reason.

He also said he felt pain after healing and it's consistent with what Mel said about PoD. You can heal but the pain doesn't disappear.

Idk why he just doesn't activate his goddess healing then

 

[Undina]

I found it weird how it was stated that Fairies are good at Illusion Magic when we didn't really see King or Elaine use it but with what happened in the last chapter when Mera tried to kill him, he might be able to use it.

I always thought it was their human disguises that counted as Illusion, since it takes a sustained spell and concentration(King complains of muscle soreness after releasing his fat nobleman form during his formal introduction to Elizabeth) to achieve and hold it.

The fact that Fairies can change their appearance, whether by just becoming fatter or ''becoming'' human is a hint at how it could be used in battle.

Or just blending in with the humans, like Helbram taking over that knight's form and infiltrating Hendricksen's HKs.

Does that mean that using the "Plague mode", Tristan will be able to also inflict illnesses and curses in the same way Percival was able to mummify living bodies in his "Death mode"?

I partly agree about inflicting illnesses and curses, but I think what he would do should be different from what Death Mode Percy does. I'm still holding onto that mode representing natural decay over Time. He can fastforward living beings' biological processes and kill them so...it would make Percy more similar to King using Fossilisation or Merlin's age-up enchantment. Tristan might end up decomposing all matter Arthur reshaped/purging and undoing all of Arthur's "creative" efforts Ofc, only his share of the lot.

Also, if that's how their innate apocalyptic nature powers work then I'm truly worried about Gawain.... eating and regurgitating? Eww. XD

Gawain in chibi form before getting serious: "Hehehe, I am become Famine, Devourer of Worlds". On a more serious note, if Thetis' prediction based on Varghese's reports is true, they could try and realistically besiege Camelot(maybe once they've powered up and eliminated most of Arthur's henchmen), maybe Gawain could use her Sunshine in such a way to ruin all their food provisions. Apparently Arthur can't create new life in that dimensional pocket, they need to steal resources from Britannia.

This and the fact that he is the Knight of Plague could mean something.

I keep thinking he'll learn how to deconstruct the matter Arthur took away from Britannia and made it into New Camelot, while bridging the purging aspects of his Ark heritage with the consuming Hellblaze demons can summon/cast.

The plagues they are supposed to unleash will probably make sense in there.

I keep forgetting that we're only supposed to look at them in that nefarious KotA light from Arthur and Camelot's perspective...but they'll likely have to build up their strengths and skills even before getting in there. Arthur's declared War, so he'll likely intensify his meddling with Britannia.

Idk why he just doesn't activate his goddess healing then

Because for some reason he can't reconcile these powers and aspects of himself(he's not yet embraced the fact that he could protect people with his demon powers). Remember that Ark in many applications neutralises/purges PoD and lifeforms naturally containing it, or its excess, but it would still be harmful/painful. We don't even know how long it took for Monspeet and Derrieri to recover from Hikari Are after their Indura stint.


Now, regarding the subject of PoD making a demon "evil", I think the more accurate term would be "primal". Meliodas lost the ability to speak at Vaizel 1, he only recognised Elizabeth, and that by smell, and all the shadows and disembodied impressions the powerful demons give off are animal-like and animalistic, all the way to Indura mode. In AM, he also lost the moral filter. Or most of it.
Tristan himself seems to be able to preserve his sanity and a level of moral awareness, but he clearly experiences dissonance between his Id and Super-Ego, that means his Ego is neutralised while in demon mode.
He's aware of what he's doing, he's aware that some things would not be agreable to him normally, but his Ego is not there to help him control his physical actions.
Hmm, so Id=Demon Mode
Super-Ego=Goddess Mode
Ego=Nephilim/Pestilence...I guess.

 

[Yakkun]

Gawain in chibi form before getting serious: "Hehehe, I am become Famine, Devourer of Worlds". On a more serious note, if Thetis' prediction based on Varghese's reports is true, they could try and realistically besiege Camelot(maybe once they've powered up and eliminated most of Arthur's henchmen), maybe Gawain could use her Sunshine in such a way to ruin all their food provisions. Apparently Arthur can't create new life in that dimensional pocket, they need to steal resources from Britannia.

Lol Oppenheimer Gawain


On a more serious note, one possible manifestation of her Apocalypse power might be a passive one: Sunshine consumed Escanor's live force, Gawain may simply offset this effect on herself by eating. Wouldn't that be something.

 

[Demonspeed]

I always thought it was their human disguises that counted as Illusion, since it takes a sustained spell and concentration(King complains of muscle soreness after releasing his fat nobleman form during his formal introduction to Elizabeth) to achieve and hold it.

Or just blending in with the humans, like Helbram taking over that knight's form and infiltrating Hendricksen's HKs.

Don't think so because their transformations are real. When Lancelot turns into a fox for example he really becomes one. It's not like others are seeing a fox while he is still in base. Same for when he turns into a Fairy. He can only fly when he has their wings.

Deception would be more like Burgie's Mirage or Ruin's illusions.

Lol Oppenheimer Gawain


On a more serious note, one possible manifestation of her Apocalypse power might be a passive one: Sunshine consumed Escanor's live force, Gawain may simply offset this effect on herself by eating. Wouldn't that be something.

The problem with that is that it would only be bad for herself. They are supposed to bring calamities which will destroy the world. Passively, Sunshine's heatwave could count. It can destroy crops too.

 

[Yakkun]

The problem with that is that it would only be bad for herself. They are supposed to bring calamities which will destroy the world. Passively, Sunshine's heatwave could count. It can destroy crops too.

What if her indulgence spirals out of control and she becomes a bit like Zebra in the Toriko manga, who was responsible for several species going extinct because they were either so delicious (or they annoyed him)

 

[Demonspeed]

With Nakaba's answer regarding Lancelot's transformations what do you think will be his limit? He has shown two Fairy forms and his Fox transformation.

Do you think he can transform into a Goddess/Demon/Giant? Or that he can/will be able to transform into someone else like Percival for example and replicate his abilities?

 

[Yakkun]

With Nakaba's answer regarding Lancelot's transformations what do you think will be his limit? He has shown two Fairy forms and his Fox transformation.

Do you think he can transform into a Goddess/Demon/Giant? Or that he can/will be able to transform into someone else like Percival for example and replicate his abilities?

I don't think he can mimick his fellow Apocalypse Knights, that would probably way too OP, especially since it seems even in transformation he can outperform the original species due to his absurd power level.

However, mimicking all the major races should be within his capabilities. Plus Nakaba loves sneaking in inpromptu giant transformations as a self-reference to Kongou Banchou. He did it in NNT too when he suddenly gave Dreyfus Fraudrin's ability during the last major arc (although he never did anything with it plot-wise).

 

[kkck]

What did nakaba say about his transformation? I never thought of fairy transformations being particularly functional.

 

[Demonspeed]

What did nakaba say about his transformation? I never thought of fairy transformations being particularly functional.

In the last chapter Nakaba said that Lancelot's Transformation Magic is superior to the other Fairies. He doesn't only change forms, he also gets the abilities of the race.

 

[kkck]

In the last chapter Nakaba said that Lancelot's Transformation Magic is superior to the other Fairies. He doesn't only change forms, he also gets the abilities of the race.

So... he can effectively change race? That's a fairly OP ability. his I suppose this is still limited to clan related abilities rather than specific abilities. If it pertains to abilities that clan members share then he basically gets ark from goddesses, darkness from demons, creation from giants... He could even potentially copy tristan and get both darkness and arc simultaneously. I suppose vampires are an option too. I recall there also being gnomes and whatever shivago was.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 3, 2023, Original Post Date: Feb 3, 2023 ---

Going forward the relevance of this might be that it allows the gang to get more non human powers into camelot.

 

[Demonspeed]

So... he can effectively change race? That's a fairly OP ability. his I suppose this is still limited to clan related abilities rather than specific abilities. If it pertains to abilities that clan members share then he basically gets ark from goddesses, darkness from demons, creation from giants... He could even potentially copy tristan and get both darkness and arc simultaneously. I suppose vampires are an option too. I recall there also being gnomes and whatever shivago was.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 3, 2023, Original Post Date: Feb 3, 2023 ---

Going forward the relevance of this might be that it allows the gang to get more non human powers into camelot.

The thing is that we don't know the limits of his Transformation ability. So far he only turned into a fox and Complete Fairy(two different ones). Other Fairies only had Human forms(King with his fat form and Helbram who turned into the hunter who fooled him).

We have never seen him turn into a Demon, Goddess or Giant but now I think he might be able to.