khaja_200923

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Po bidau gustang the leader of bidau family is being called as young man here and he calls the person on the radio as old gentle man.
from the conversation between gustang and the other person, the least that can be said about the other person is way too older than gustang to the point where he can call one of the 10 warriors a young man. he also holds equal or more authority than gustang otherwise he would've called him young master instead of young man even if he was one rank below him.
the only person that fits the description who is way older than gustang and is on equal or higher position than him in the tower is Molic One P. GR.
Molic one P.GR is one of the three lords who rule the tower and might be the current active lord.

looks like gustang and the top tower has different plans for Viole the irregular. they want viole to get stronger than zahard because zahard and 10 warriors were unable to pass the guardians test themselves. so they gave him the thorn via FUG because they want him to advance to the 135th floor so, that they can go there too. like FUG they must also have been waiting for someone to climb the tower's final floor and viole is their answer too like FUG.
 

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Interesting! Bump lol

Not sure about the second half, perhaps true in retrospect due to recent revelations with Gustang.

I hadn't thought of who Gustang might be talking to that would/could be his elder at the time.
 

Jack Van Burace

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Molic is Jahad's minion. Try Macseth instead:

 

Jubei_Kibagami

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Minion?

Molic is one of the three lords, an elder lord from around before Zahard.



Molic is Jahad's minion. Try Macseth instead:

 

Jubei_Kibagami

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I'm not sure the 3 lords are minions.
 

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I'm not sure the 3 lords are minions.
They all serve Zahard loyally or else they’d be dead.

IMO since the Workshop was meant to serve the true purpose of irregulars the person Gustang is talking to is Macseth.
 

Jubei_Kibagami

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They all serve Zahard loyally or else they’d be dead.

IMO since the Workshop was meant to serve the true purpose of irregulars the person Gustang is talking to is Macseth.
eh, yeah, can you show where they have such a violent/threatening relationship rather than something more symbiotic?

SIU hasn't gone too much into it.

Perhaps it's something closer to the Monarchy and the PM of England. The PM doesn't serve the Queen under threat of death, and the Queen is largely a figurehead.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I'm open to it being Macseth, but Molic is old as well (most likely an ancient older than Gustang). Maybe he's seeking to usurp Zahard like how things were before Zahard came.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

They all serve Zahard loyally or else they’d be dead.

IMO since the Workshop was meant to serve the true purpose of irregulars the person Gustang is talking to is Macseth.
Also, where are you getting that Gong Bang was 'meant to serve the true purpose of irregulars'?
 

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eh, yeah, can you show where they have such a violent/threatening relationship rather than something more symbiotic?

SIU hasn't gone too much into it.

Perhaps it's something closer to the Monarchy and the PM of England. The PM doesn't serve the Queen under threat of death, and the Queen is largely a figurehead.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I'm open to it being Macseth, but Molic is old as well (most likely an ancient older than Gustang). Maybe he's seeking to usurp Zahard like how things were before Zahard came.
--- Double Post Merged, ---



Also, where are you getting that Gong Bang was 'meant to serve the true purpose of irregulars'?
Zahard is not some figurehead. Perhaps there may be some insurrection but I don’t think so - unless it comes from the lord that’s been made by Macseth.

Regarding the true purpose: the Workshop made the Hell Train and many other things to support Zahard’s climb. This was in the purpose of the Tower, which going from the GoG’s musings to Bam, that Zahard and his companions screwed up the tower and he hoped Bam could restore it.

The GoG on the train isn’t the voice of Gong Bang necessarily but I’d be surprised if he was alone in his thoughts.
 

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Zahard is not some figurehead. Perhaps there may be some insurrection but I don’t think so - unless it comes from the lord that’s been made by Macseth.
SIU made it a point to show that Molic isn't a pushover, even by Zahard, or if he was even ever able to best him at all. In fact we don't even know how it went down. It is implied that he could very well be equal in strength. The relationship could very well be functional.

"About
If Zahard is the symbol that represents the Tower's ruler, Molic One is the being who actually rules the Tower. Of the Three Lords, he is the strongest and his influence is comparable to the 10 Family Heads.[1]"

This literally means as far as day-to-day things go, Zahard is, actually, a figurehead, and Molic does what he wants.

"Powers and Abilities
Although said to be a powerful warrior that Zahard himself could not take lightly, as it's ancient history, most of the records were lost.[1]"

Again from SIU's blog, he has pointedly left it open-ended as far as how Zahard was able to deal with Molic, or even if he was able to at all. Perhaps being offered a high position of authority - to literally do whatever you want in the tower - was sufficient and a smarter move than taking Molic on.

I believe the word used was "minion" and nothing at all points to this at all, rather the contrary.

So, yes, Zahard is literally a figurehead no different than the Queen. The Queen COULD dismiss the PM, but she won't. She doesn't do the day to day governance, and defers rule to the PM and others. Her rule, while absolute, is mostly a formality at this point.

Regarding the true purpose: the Workshop made the Hell Train and many other things to support Zahard’s climb. This was in the purpose of the Tower, which going from the GoG’s musings to Bam, that Zahard and his companions screwed up the tower and he hoped Bam could restore it.

The GoG on the train isn’t the voice of Gong Bang necessarily but I’d be surprised if he was alone in his thoughts.
The stated goal of Gong Bang is bigger than the tower. It deals with the greater world itself.

"Its ultimate ambition is to find the order and reason of all creation in the world. And by doing so, to know how to recreate all such creation and with that, become a god of all creation."

We don't actually KNOW the purpose of the tower. What you state is speculative. Gong Bang exists separate from Zahard's rule, before Zahard's rule, and any interaction is incidental with a purpose we don't yet know. It has never been stated WHY the Workshop aided Zahard. In fact, the Workshop routinely helps regulars as well and general Tower inhabitants with their creations and has even helped FUG several times that we know. In other words, the Workshop doesn't exist for the sole purpose to help irregulars (functioning before they every came), or climb the tower (it's already outside). Not only is that not the stated goal, but it could just be a curiosity or side-project. It's already outside the tower. Lots of assumptions used, sorry.
 

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SIU made it a point to show that Molic isn't a pushover, even by Zahard, or if he was even ever able to best him at all. In fact we don't even know how it went down. It is implied that he could very well be equal in strength. The relationship could very well be functional.

"About
If Zahard is the symbol that represents the Tower's ruler, Molic One is the being who actually rules the Tower. Of the Three Lords, he is the strongest and his influence is comparable to the 10 Family Heads.[1]"

This literally means as far as day-to-day things go, Zahard is, actually, a figurehead, and Molic does what he wants.

"Powers and Abilities
Although said to be a powerful warrior that Zahard himself could not take lightly, as it's ancient history, most of the records were lost.[1]"

Again from SIU's blog, he has pointedly left it open-ended as far as how Zahard was able to deal with Molic, or even if he was able to at all. Perhaps being offered a high position of authority - to literally do whatever you want in the tower - was sufficient and a smarter move than taking Molic on.

I believe the word used was "minion" and nothing at all points to this at all, rather the contrary.

So, yes, Zahard is literally a figurehead no different than the Queen. The Queen COULD dismiss the PM, but she won't. She doesn't do the day to day governance, and defers rule to the PM and others. Her rule, while absolute, is mostly a formality at this point.



The stated goal of Gong Bang is bigger than the tower. It deals with the greater world itself.

"Its ultimate ambition is to find the order and reason of all creation in the world. And by doing so, to know how to recreate all such creation and with that, become a god of all creation."

We don't actually KNOW the purpose of the tower. What you state is speculative. Gong Bang exists separate from Zahard's rule, before Zahard's rule, and any interaction is incidental with a purpose we don't yet know. It has never been stated WHY the Workshop aided Zahard. In fact, the Workshop routinely helps regulars as well and general Tower inhabitants with their creations and has even helped FUG several times that we know. In other words, the Workshop doesn't exist for the sole purpose to help irregulars (functioning before they every came), or climb the tower (it's already outside). Not only is that not the stated goal, but it could just be a curiosity or side-project. It's already outside the tower. Lots of assumptions used, sorry.
Pbbbt.

First off if Molic One was able to beat Zahard he would be king. Second, the ten heads may have been close to Zahard’s strength before but they are not now. Zahard is on a whole other level.

Other point - of course Gong Bang supported FUG at times. FUG, at least some parts of it, want to undo the damage that Zahard has done. Additionally, I don’t NEED to know what the true purpose of the Tower is to know that the Workshop supports the true purpose of the Tower. I know it’s just one quote but the GoG clearly says that the Tower has been ruined by Zahard and the ten heads and he wishes to restore it to the way it was before.

Given that the GoG is an artificial being made by the Workshop I don’t think it’s far fetched to assume he has inherited some of their will and that his reflections match the desires of the Workshop itself.

There may be far more to the Workshop than things for irregulars, but that is not their core mission. And you are the one who ascribed climbing the tower to its true purpose, not me. I didn’t say what the true purpose was and in the context of this convo it actually doesn’t matter.
 

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As far as we know given their job description it seems fairly certain that the 3 lords are essentially zahard's minions. They just do the tedious part of managing an empire. I would assume that all 3 of them have a different relationship with zahard based on what we know though.

Molic one pr: Conservative who values stability.

Joochum: Progressive who pushes for climbing the tower.

Flux: Living organism made by macseth.

The way I see it, being conservative should be something that alludes to one being loyal to zahard. As maintaining the status quo is something that benefits zahard. While the circumstances behind it are unknown, I'd say this suggests molic is extremely likely to be essentially zahard's minion, willingly or unwillingly.

Joochum pushes for climbing the tower.... But this is something that as far as we know places him at odds with zahard. Add to that his friendliness with urek. I suppose he could push for advancement while remaining loyal within the system but at a minimum his attitude is likely seen as inconvenient at times.

FLux... well, would be a mystery. We know the workshop has at least at times worked alongside zahard, catering to his whims. Since flux was kinda built his loyalties depend on what exactly he was made to do in general. If he is something zahard asked for then he will likely be related to loyal to zahard though.
 
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Jack Van Burace

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One of 3 lords is Joochun, the drunk Ari son. The other is Flux, an artificial being created by the Macseth. The third is Molic. They rule the Tower while Jahad sleeps, not because they could be above him. Its a delegated function, Just like Adori rules Jahad's army. Adori isn't older or stronger than Jahad either. Its Just the person in charge.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

As far as we know given their job description it seems fairly certain that the 3 lords are essentially zahard's minions. They just do the tedious part of managing an empire. I would assume that all 3 of them have a different relationship with zahard based on what we know though.

Molic one pr: Conservative who values stability.

Joochum: Progressive who pushes for climbing the tower.

Flux: Living organism made by macseth.

The way I see it, being conservative should be something that alludes to one being loyal to zahard. As maintaining the status quo is something that benefits zahard. While the circumstances behind it are unknown, I'd say this suggests molic is extremely likely to be essentially zahard's minion, willingly or unwillingly. I suppose he could push for advancement while remaining loyal within the system but at a minimum his attitude is likely seen as inconvenient at times.

Joochum pushes for climbing the tower.... But this is something that as far as we know places him at odds with zahard. Add to that his friendliness with urek.

FLux... well, would be a mystery. We know the workshop has at least at times worked alongside zahard, catering to his whims. Since flux was kinda built his loyalties depend on what exactly he was made to do in general. If he is something zahard asked for then he will likely be related to loyal to zahard though.
I see artificial beings of ToG like Phantasy Star artificial beings. Actually, ToG's art and concepts remind me a lot of Phantasy Star's 4 First games. They also have an ancient worldwide Control and development infrastructure that resembles the Workshop. Artificial beings range from full robots and cyborgs to genetically engineered organic humanoids.

Based on that I can imagine Macseth's children having their own Will and goals, also being perhaps as organic as anyone else. Or perhaps similar to Casano's devil's nature., Since they can apparently manipulate that.
 

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I see artificial beings of ToG like Phantasy Star artificial beings. Actually, ToG's art and concepts remind me a lot of Phantasy Star's 4 First games. They also have an ancient worldwide Control and development infrastructure that resembles the Workshop. Artificial beings range from full robots and cyborgs to genetically engineered organic humanoids.

Based on that I can imagine Macseth's children having their own Will and goals, also being perhaps as organic as anyone else. Or perhaps similar to Casano's devil's nature., Since they can apparently manipulate that.
My take was that these beings would be basically the same as the hell train's guardians. Except of course perhaps more powerful.
 

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Pbbbt.

First off if Molic One was able to beat Zahard he would be king.
Speculative. Maybe he was resigned to being a ruler of the Molic region as stated. Why would he NEED to be a figurehead king if he could have the ability to do whatever he wants anyways (and simultaneously extend his range from the Molic region to the entirety of the tower)? You're assuming Molic wants/wanted to be king/ruler of the tower, needs more than his region to govern in his ambitions, or that regulars can even contract to be a king in the first place (no matter their level of strength). Absolutely none of that CONFIRMS that Molic is weaker than Zahard. And SIU went out of his way to talk of his strength in relation to Zahard as not someone even Zahard can underestimate. This does not mean he could or couldn't beat him. It's purposefully vague, compounded by the lack records that SIU writes are lost. In short, we DON'T KNOW that Molic is/was weaker than Zahard, and we even have hints that he may have been on his level or even greater. This is actual fact from SIU's blogs and the story itself.

Second, the ten heads may have been close to Zahard’s strength before but they are not now. Zahard is on a whole other level.
This still doesn't mean Zahard hadn't met his match at some level when climbing. He could have offered a deal, truce, perks, etc. SIU left us hints that Molic could have been the immovable object that Zahard's unstoppable force met. A solution that was handled diplomatically, perhaps. Seeing as the records have been 'lost' (or destroyed), maybe Zahard didn't want anyone knowing how difficult his climb really was, or Molic was. My theory is equally plausible, and there's a difference between speaking in absolutes and admitting you're speculating.

Other point - of course Gong Bang supported FUG at times. FUG, at least some parts of it, want to undo the damage that Zahard has done. Additionally, I don’t NEED to know what the true purpose of the Tower is to know that the Workshop supports the true purpose of the Tower.
Then why state for a FACT what the purpose of the tower is? Again, speculation. Further, as the Workshop exists outside the tower (already) we don't KNOW that the Workshop supports the "true" (whatever that means) purpose of the tower as we don't even know if those goals even coincide other than at times. Because we know the stated purpose of Gong Bang, but not the purpose of the tower. The later has simply not been described to the reader.

I know it’s just one quote but the GoG clearly says that the Tower has been ruined by Zahard and the ten heads and he wishes to restore it to the way it was before.

Given that the GoG is an artificial being made by the Workshop I don’t think it’s far fetched to assume he has inherited some of their will and that his reflections match the desires of the Workshop itself.
GoG was made in an isolated environment, in a vacuum if you will. IF he has the will of the Workshop (speculation!) then it would logically be what the will was at the time of creation - to help the irregulars undergo revolution. That's his (only known) job. Waxing poetic about the state of the tower when he's confined to the hell train for all eternity could be representative of anything.

"The "god" of guardians has existed even when Zahard and the 10 Great Warriors first got on the Hell Express.[1] A long time ago, the "god" of guardians trained Zahard and the 10 Great Warriors in the place called 'Rice Pot'.[1] He specifically helped Zahard to become more powerful after the later told him his wish to become the King of the Tower.[3]"

And Zahard did just that. Now he has buyer's remorse? GoG is simply a program to help irregulars undergo revolution. It's not his stated job to make judgement calls on what irregulars do after the fact.

There may be far more to the Workshop than things for irregulars, but that is not their core mission.
Again, their 'core' mission is exactly what they state it to be. It is not inherently tied to irregulars. You can't show where that is the case because it is not the case. We know what their core mission is because we have been told just that - and it is nothing inherent to irregulars. Their knowledge and focus and expertise etc all may supersede any goals of irregulars. Their existence doesn't have to be limited to what the tower has going on, which may be an isolated event - we don't know!

And you are the one who ascribed climbing the tower to its true purpose, not me.
lol, what? When I prompted you what you meant by 'Gong Bang being meant to serve the true purpose of the irregular' you stated, immediately, that the workshop made things to support Zahard's climb... "in the purpose of the tower"

If I have conflated the two it is not from some thought of my own. I was never talking about the purpose of the tower, or Gong Bang's support role in relation to irregulars - those were your claims.

I am merely pointing out is it very clear, so far at least, Molic isn't some sniveling 'minion' of Zahard, and we don't know how he got that position or what his motivations are or anything. I'm not the one making speculative statements as facts. No one would describe the PM as a 'minion' of the Queen even though the Monarchy's reign is absolute in theory. There is such a thing as nuance.

I didn’t say what the true purpose was and in the context of this convo it actually doesn’t matter.
How about this then:

1. What is the 'true purpose of the tower' and what chapter can I read about that? Fact, not speculation.
2. Where is it stated that Gong Bang (mainly/only/predominantly) supports the 'true purpose of the tower' and what chapter can I read that in?
3. (edit) Where is it stated that Gong Bang is/was meant to serve the true purpose of irregulars and what chapter(s) can I read about that? This was, after all, your first assertion on the matter.

Making statements as fact when it hasn't been shown to be the case (or evidence exists to the contrary) is, by nature, speculation.

Continued counterpoints of doubling down on speculations just comes across as contentious and contrarian. I came in this thread to show support that the OP just may have something going years ago that could still very well be true. He even linked the wiki; I'm sure he knew exactly who he meant. But instead we're talking about Molic as if he's just some grunt working for the mostly absentee Zahard. And SIU's words do not support that statement as a fact.
 
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Ripcord

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Speculative. Maybe he was resigned to being a ruler of the Molic region as stated. Why would he NEED to be a figurehead king if he could have the ability to do whatever he wants anyways (and simultaneously extend his range from the Molic region to the entirety of the tower)? You're assuming Molic wants/wanted to be king/ruler of the tower, needs more than his region to govern in his ambitions, or that regulars can even contract to be a king in the first place (no matter their level of strength). Absolutely none of that CONFIRMS that Molic is weaker than Zahard. And SIU went out of his way to talk of his strength in relation to Zahard as not someone even Zahard can underestimate. This does not mean he could or couldn't beat him. It's purposefully vague, compounded by the lack records that SIU writes are lost. In short, we DON'T KNOW that Molic is/was weaker than Zahard, and we even have hints that he may have been on his level or even greater. This is actual fact from SIU's blogs and the story itself.



This still doesn't mean Zahard hadn't met his match at some level when climbing. He could have offered a deal, truce, perks, etc. SIU left us hints that Molic could have been the immovable object that Zahard's unstoppable force met. A solution that was handled diplomatically, perhaps. Seeing as the records have been 'lost' (or destroyed), maybe Zahard didn't want anyone knowing how difficult his climb really was, or Molic was. My theory is equally plausible, and there's a difference between speaking in absolutes and admitting you're speculating.



Then why state for a FACT what the purpose of the tower is? Again, speculation. Further, as the Workshop exists outside the tower (already) we don't KNOW that the Workshop supports the "true" (whatever that means) purpose of the tower as we don't even know if those goals even coincide other than at times. Because we know the stated purpose of Gong Bang, but not the purpose of the tower. The later has simply not been described to the reader.



GoG was made in an isolated environment, in a vacuum if you will. IF he has the will of the Workshop (speculation!) then it would logically be what the will was at the time of creation - to help the irregulars undergo revolution. That's his (only known) job. Waxing poetic about the state of the tower when he's confined to the hell train for all eternity could be representative of anything.

"The "god" of guardians has existed even when Zahard and the 10 Great Warriors first got on the Hell Express.[1] A long time ago, the "god" of guardians trained Zahard and the 10 Great Warriors in the place called 'Rice Pot'.[1] He specifically helped Zahard to become more powerful after the later told him his wish to become the King of the Tower.[3]"

And Zahard did just that. Now he has buyer's remorse? GoG is simply a program to help irregulars undergo revolution. It's not his stated job to make judgement calls on what irregulars do after the fact.



Again, their 'core' mission is exactly what they state it to be. It is not inherently tied to irregulars. You can't show where that is the case because it is not the case. We know what their core mission is because we have been told just that - and it is nothing inherent to irregulars. Their knowledge and focus and expertise etc all may supersede any goals of irregulars. Their existence doesn't have to be limited to what the tower has going on, which may be an isolated event - we don't know!



lol, what? When I prompted you what you meant by 'Gong Bang being meant to serve the true purpose of the irregular' you stated, immediately, that the workshop made things to support Zahard's climb... "in the purpose of the tower"

If I have conflated the two it is not from some thought of my own. I was never talking about the purpose of the tower, or Gong Bang's support role in relation to irregulars - those were your claims.

I am merely pointing out is it very clear, so far at least, Molic isn't some sniveling 'minion' of Zahard, and we don't know how he got that position or what his motivations are or anything. I'm not the one making speculative statements as facts. No one would describe the PM as a 'minion' of the Queen even though the Monarchy's reign is absolute in theory. There is such a thing as nuance.



How about this then:

1. What is the 'true purpose of the tower' and what chapter can I read about that? Fact, not speculation.
2. Where is it stated that Gong Bang (mainly/only/predominantly) supports the 'true purpose of the tower' and what chapter can I read that in?
3. (edit) Where is it stated that Gong Bang is/was meant to serve the true purpose of irregulars and what chapter(s) can I read about that? This was, after all, your first assertion on the matter.

Making statements as fact when it hasn't been shown to be the case (or evidence exists to the contrary) is, by nature, speculation.

Continued counterpoints of doubling down on speculations just comes across as contentious and contrarian. I came in this thread to show support that the OP just may have something going years ago that could still very well be true. He even linked the wiki; I'm sure he knew exactly who he meant. But instead we're talking about Molic as if he's just some grunt working for the mostly absentee Zahard. And SIU's words do not support that statement as a fact.
You speculate more than anyone I’ve ever seen TBH and when I present info from the manwah to support it you brush it off. Rather than make a concise coherent argument you fill a page with tons of words. Quantity does not mean quality. I think you can do better.

It is fact that the Hell Train was built specifically for Zahard and the Ten Heads. Perhaps serve is not the right word but rather support. The idea I said is not altogether wrong. They gave them the train, the ricepot, the GoG, and Zahard got his sword.
 

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You speculate more than anyone I’ve ever seen TBH
At least I'm honest that I'm speculating? You know OP came here to speculate as well, no?

and when I present info from the manwah to support it you brush it off.
I have quoted multiple quotes from the wikis that are referenced from the manga and/or blogs. Not one person has even acknowledged the language that SIU uses yet I'm the one brushing off sources? What data have I disregarded? I'm the one citing specific data in the wiki's lol

Rather than make a concise coherent argument you fill a page with tons of words.
Do you understand point-counterpoint? I understand you might not want to respond to every point, but I will if I see multiple points that are disagreeable. It's not like you made one statement that I wrote 'a page with a ton of words about' - I was responding line-by-line, point-by-point.

Quantity does not mean quality. I think you can do better.
This is just condescending and non-productive. I can lower my word-count and make 'factual' statements which are really just speculative (like some posters), but that does not equate to "quality." To each their own I guess. No one is forcing you to read or respond.

It is fact that the Hell Train was built specifically for Zahard and the Ten Heads.
I do not disagree on this - I never have (not sure what you're getting at as I've not said anything contrary to the matter). This single action does not support your assertions that are in fact speculative. I could say it's a fact that Zahard killed one child - does that mean I can then extrapolate to say he is a madman that wants to kill every toddler he comes across? No.

Perhaps serve is not the right word but rather support. The idea I said is not altogether wrong. They gave them the train, the ricepot, the GoG, and Zahard got his sword.
Yes, and my point is also not wrong. Gong Bang has done a variety of things, for a variety of people, some with conflicts of interests, in various capacities, over vast periods of time. SIU has made it abundantly clear that Gong Bang serves Gong Bang and none other. Even Zahard respects this. The Workshop isn't inherently in support of Zahard, his empire, kingship, irregulars in general, or whatever is going on with the tower in of itself any more than they are against any of that. Gong Bang serves a higher, broader in scale, larger than the tower, older than Zahard's appearance, purpose - it even has a mission statement! And this is what the blogs actually say or expound upon. They don't, in any way, say that GB exists to serve or act in a supporting role for Zahard or irregulars OVER their stated purpose, or in spite of it, or prioritize it. GB has specifically been made to be shrouded in mystery. I'm glad you have solid hold of what SIU is doing behind the curtain, but I don't.






I see you have not, can not, answer any of the pointed questions I asked above. All of which you asserted at one point in time in this thread. If you assert a statement as fact, and take the time to write a response, but shy away from supporting your statement as 'fact' - that's on you, not me. At this point you're just deflecting, not answering.

And if I'm wrong in any thing I've said, feel free to point it out. Dismissing my entire response out of hand doesn't give you a 'win'. Nor does it make your statements factual. I'm open to data that runs counter to my thoughts. But I've been clear from post #1 that I'm not making any conclusive representations and I'm here to speculate. If you have your own, separate, opinion, great. If you think your opinion is fact, then fine, back it up, particularly if you took time out of your day to come and 'correct' someone here.

That's just common courtesy. "I think you're wrong, and here's why... this is just my opinion... the sources say 'X, Y, Z'..." - something to that effect. Just saying someone is wrong because you say so.... meh.
 

Echizen_Akira

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The person he was talking to said "I don't like machines that are similar to humans" which makes Macseth seem unlikely since he creates artificial life. Also Gustang is known to have a close relationship to GB and often gets together with Macseth, it feels like it should be someone he isn't openly connected to. Finally they communicate via old radio instead of the pocket, I see no reason for Macseth to not use his own creation.

That said, the person also stated at one point that they "allowed" Gustang to control the workshop battle however he wanted, implying it's someone high up in the GB. Not likely Molic.
 

shaheer

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I don't think there has been anyone in the tower apart from Enryu and Phantaminum who is stronger than Zahard(if we are counting potential then Bam 's name goes the list) . Urek may be his equal or somewhere between hon and Zahard. I highly doubt Molic one is stronger than Zahard, Molic is probably even weaker than adori.
Arguing uncertainty regarding who is stronger is just obfuscation to me.
 

Jubei_Kibagami

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The person he was talking to said "I don't like machines that are similar to humans" which makes Macseth seem unlikely since he creates artificial life. Also Gustang is known to have a close relationship to GB and often gets together with Macseth, it feels like it should be someone he isn't openly connected to. Finally they communicate via old radio instead of the pocket, I see no reason for Macseth to not use his own creation.
All the more reason he might not be talking to someone in the Workshop. It's like an elder tower luddite or something. Why would ANYONE in the Workshop have such a mentality? That's like someone working at NASA not liking sending people into space...

That said, the person also stated at one point that they "allowed" Gustang to control the workshop battle however he wanted, implying it's someone high up in the GB. Not likely Molic.
But doesn't this just assume it is someone at GB to begin with?

Macseth is probably the only one in GB that would have an 'elder'-'kiddo' relationship with Gustang - but you don't think it's him. If you don't think it's him, why assume GB at all?

Molic was around before Gustang came along (hence the elder-junior talk). Someone with authority over the tower, working under Zahard's name wouldn't be in a position to 'allow' something?

I don't think there has been anyone in the tower apart from Enryu and Phantaminum who is stronger than Zahard(if we are counting potential then Bam 's name goes the list) . Urek may be his equal or somewhere between hon and Zahard. I highly doubt Molic one is stronger than Zahard, Molic is probably even weaker than adori.
At least you're using words like 'think' 'doubt' and 'probably'.... but, I'm just unsure as we haven't had a confirmation on any of that. Particularly when it seems SIU has purposefully left such a comparison open-ended.

Arguing uncertainty regarding who is stronger is just obfuscation to me.
Well, take it up with SIU then lol. He's the one that purposefully clouded the strength of Molic to the point of very intentionally used, vague words of his strength (in relation to Zahard specifically) to the point that it's not possible to state definitively who is stronger - oh, and the records of such a comparison have been conveniently 'lost' (probably destroyed). So the obscure nature is coming right from the author on this debate.

In fact, it isn't even said Zahard got Molic, someone we specifically don't know if he could or had ever bested, via combat or superior strength - "As his name implies, he was once the absolute ruler of the Molic region and, under a settlement with Zahard, he became one of the Three Lords.[1]"

This means Zahard negotiated with Molic. We have no idea how that went, but if Zahard was even in the least bit hesitant to take on Molic it does seem his Lordship was something that was set up diplomatically as opposed to outright force. For Zahard to need to do such a thing is potentially very telling.
 
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