Does anyone thinks Takeshi Konomi is wasting Jiro Akutagawa's tennis potentials? That dude is No. 2 Hyotei which I never understand. I don't think anyone knows Jiro's true potentials and powers, nor how strong as a No. 2 Hyotei tennis player he is. I'm pretty sure that nobody believed Jiro is No.2 when Konomi revealed it. Maybe he will participate in the U-17 World Cup Tournament and will take over someone's spot. He could be somewhere in S tier, A tier, B tier or C tier range. Someone commented that he is close to opening "P.O.P" or has "P.O.P."
I mean, I like Jirou, but there's like 300 characters, Konomi just wants to draw others, that are for the most part more important in the story. He abandoned the guy in PoT (he probably felt done with what he had to offer) when TnK wasn't supposed to be "another" aura.
I'd personally like to see him play and get TnK, just wouldn't say it's a waste if it doesn't happen.
We've seen BJK several times, it has hurt its opponent on its own only once (Momo). The only other time is the implication that Golden JK + Kijin murdered Kaji.
Do you really think Momo is such an asshole to go around injuring players because it's fun or something? No right? Why did he hit his improved BJK against the Aramenoma guys then? It's completely out of character in 700 manga chapters.
Kirihara has only played doubles in NPoT (3 matches, all far apart), and yet he's an unstable crazy kid, it's hardly an argument. The matches you mention are back to back too anyway. Not saying Taira is equal, I literally said he solos, I just don't see what argument is there for him to be good at doubles.
It's not like Momo beat them alone nor that the gap between Taira/Hara and Washio/Suzuki is that massive. They are literally one point away and have the (second?) biggest doubles boost on top. If they can return Bakyuun they win.
Of course not, Kenya is a part of it too. But Momoshiro+Kenya manage to beat 1st stringer that's better than 1st court that's better than 2nd court that's better than 3rd court that is on par with WoK and is actually slightly better. That is simply what happen.
The gap between Taira/Hara and 3rd court IS massive. The differences between each court is massive. It is state so in the story by Tanegashima. By minimum that's the differences of 1st court and 2nd court, even if the differences between 1st court and 1st stringer isn't massive.
You can tell me if you don't remember Tanegashima, who's the #2 of 1st stringer, statement about each court level beyond 4th onward being on a different level and I'll do happy to show you that page. And with that page, unless you can bring a statement or suggestion about Washio/Suzuki being exceptions like Tokugawa/Tanegashima/Oni/Irie, it's true because that's manga statement.
Mutsu are the one that's completely stomp the 3rd court pair and the score isn't known. What are you talking about?
Of course, why? Like I said, the coaches could had selected them trusting they would unlock it against tougher opposition (there's a chance they never played doubles together officially in the camp) or maybe as individual doubles players they are that good. It could be that the spots they freed went to Oishi and Kite. We don't know, the one jumping to conclusions is you.
Look. Jirou is #2 of Hyoutei but Oshitari was chosen over him. He's also got list in the databook as most likely to unlock PoP and I doubt Oshitari will ever come close to PoP level. Whether on current strength as #2 or potential by PoP Jirou seems higher using the information we are given. It's fan service.
And you're right. We don't know. So maybe coaches believe WoK would unlock it too? Who know? But in that case, it's a gamble and we know they are just equal to 3rd court doubles wise. By stating that uncertainty, you already shows that you are aware that players who are chosen isn't necessary better than people who aren't chosen so it's not a clear criteria that can be use.
You have yet to show me any proof otherwise that they are above 3rd court pair. We already see a stronger and player with more potential got ignore by the selection compare to players in the selection. Momoshiro not getting pick doesn't mean that he's not 1st stringer tier in doubles. It's not a concrete proof that show WoK level.
You're putting down an ACTUAL 1st stringer as well as a player that actually beat them. That IS what happen in the story.
I have already shown the proof from the manga using WoK latest match tbh. You're the one that's jumping to conclusion by trying to use coach decision that's not even related to the match itself but the thing that Konomi admit was influence by the fans.
We're just going back and forth so unless you can provide an actual proof that WoK isn't 3rd court tier anymore I won't be replying anymore.
What reason did I give you for Momo not to be chosen? What?
We haven't seen anything from Hara that displays good doubles abilities. We only saw a very good move.
I know the page, it doesn't really change much? You can interpret it as 3rd court and above being on a different level compared to the rest of the camp. Just follow the stat trend. What do you know about Akiba that suggests he is stronger than Nakagauchi? Nakagauchi has higher stats AND got selected. Yet he was just another guy in the 3rd court. Miyako has even higher stats too.
There's a reason why this isn't the first time Washio/Suzuki played against the Mutsus: they are good. Despite there being 16 (+Irie and Oni) players above them, they played against the 15/16 before. Math doesn't really check out does it?
Edit: actually, this is an old assumption given that the Mutsus directly reference how Washio/Suzuki have not improved, as if they know first hand, you may ignore it.
We know why they stomped them. They did a synchro challenge and then it's resolved just by stats. Simple and straightforward. Taira/Hara don't synchro so it doesn't work like that.
Konomi was asked who is Hyotei's number 2 in Question 11 of his Q&A, and he replied that Jirou, Yuushi, Hiyoshi and Shishido all aim to be Hyotei's number one. So no, you are wrong.
I mean, sure, I keep giving you proof and you keep saying your proof is better than mine despite mine being more recent, so might as well not go on.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Looking back at chapter 50, the list has the challengers sort of ranked.
Tokugawa
Oni
Irie
Supposedly 3 first court guys and Hitsujida, 4th court.
Nakagauchi
Supposedly first court guy
Unknown (Yamato)
Migihashi(only 2nd court guy)
Rest of third court minus Takei
3 Unknown players
Takei
Yukimura
Using simple math: can you explain me why there's 2 first court guys ranked below the entirety of third court (minus scrub Takei)?
--- Double Post Merged, ---
Offtipic but I can actually give you a reason because this became interesting: when the 3rd court became the fifth court, with all the shuffle matches they played they got back to at least the 4th court. Yamato and Nakagauchi played against the first court, instead, and won. These two dropped guys never managed to get back ahead of the ex 3rd court.
Meanwhile Migihashi made it back to the camp and got as high as he could in ten days.
Hara is a good player yes. He ALSO play in doubles at 1st stringer tier as shown by the manga itself. And Momoshiro playing doubles manage to beat 2 guys that's stronger than WoK individually with the help of Kenya despite Momo being weaker than WoK. How does that not show you anything regarding Hara and Momoshiro doubles level?
And if you say Hara is strong individually but manage to stay in 1st stringer playing doubles and STAY in the 1st stringer doubles level, that only serve to prove even more than Momoshiro who have beaten Hara can do the same to the weaker WoK. Either way, it prove my point.
And no, the page clearly state EACH court.
The names of 2nd stringer isn't necessary ranked in order. That's your assumption. So there's no need to explain anything regarding that list. The explanation is simply it's just not rank in order of strength. And if you see the 3rd court fighting the lower 1st stringer and the the original G10 match up HS getting replace with middle schooler, you can actually see that the manga actually suggest otherwise.
Why would the weaker player got chosen to play G10?
Also in this revolution we can clearly see the selection isn't based on strength alone. The loser camp wasn't chosen at all but win all their matches against 1st stringer.
Nakagauchi was state to be Oni rival. That's the rival of a guy who's #5 1st stringer. He's clearly the exceptions. I put him in my original exceptions list in the spoiler thread too. You can go back and check if you want.
What proof do you give me? I see those in the proof you gave me.
That WoK is CONFIRMED not to have beast syncho?
That Konomi HIMSELF admit fan is part of the reasons why he choose the player and not player strength alone? And that's just because player is stronger it doesn't mean the player will be chosen as we already seen?
Those proof doesn't prove my point wrong at all. You CAN give a proof but the proof need to prove your point and prove my point wrong dude. Look, the proof is that the most recent proof prove that WoK doesn't have beast syncho yet. That's THE most recent proof. It's the proof that they haven't improve their doubles compare to the last time they lost to 3rd court pair. Do you have anything more recent than that?
You would have a stronger point if you didn't show that Konomi interview tbh. Because then you can claim fans services have nothing to do with the selection. And you can also claim WoK already gotten beast syncho instead of having the official confirmation that they haven't improve that beast syncho further than the 3rd court match. Both of those points actually make your points weaker.
The thing is that things that are stated or happen in the manga is true. Things that are stated by Konomi is also true. That's how things work.
Let's look at all confirmed point by the manga without adding any of our opinion shall we? If you believe any of these point doesn't happen in the manga let me know and I can show you the page.
-Hara is 1st stringer
-Hara play doubles as 1st stringer
-Momoshiro playing doubles manage to beat Hara
-WoK lost to 3rd court pair
-Weaker player had been chosen over the stronger player as Japan representative due to various reasons state by Konomi in the interview.
-"From here on out, even going up 1 court number, is going up COMPLETELY different level of strength"
In this example, things are actually more simple than it look. WoK pair back then is just 3rd court level pair without the mastery of beast syncho. You just have to prove that they improve to the extent they are able to be on 1st stringer tier level without the beast syncho. But the problem is there isn't such proof yet as far as I know
In additions, the recent Konomi interview add these facts
-WoK is suppose to be chosen as representative but reject and confirmed by Konomi to not be able to use Beast Syncho at will yet
-Fans are part of the reason why Konomi pick the representative
Those are all facts. Like I say before, the next time WoK play doubles, I believe that they without a doubt will be super high tier. But them WITHOUT that beast syncho boost doesn't have much in the manga to show that they are strong as a doubles pair. We only know their last match and that they still haven't gotten any boost outside of "U-17 camp boost" that everyone else with invitation manage to obtain as well. Is there anything that boost their strength higher that I have already state?
List of facts in front of you that you can't disprove any of them. Agree to disagree.
That's probably how those people before think WoK stand a chance as well lmao. by ignoring what happen in the manga by looking at "proof" that actually doesn't prove a point.
But yeah if you can't disprove any of those facts, then we can only agree to disagree indeed. I have no interest at all in arguing with fanon. I can only argue on canon that's happen in the manga or stated by Konomi.
I'll stated it in a simple way here, but since you just reject manga facts you don't need to reply if you won't want to.
We're talking about how WoK is 3rd court level pair.
-Weaker player had been chosen over the stronger player as Japan representative due to various reasons state by Konomi in the interview.
-Fans are part of the reason why Konomi pick the representative
This is show with people like Oichi being selected over Momoshirou and Kaidoh and means that just because you are select it doesn't mean you're better than the people who's not select as part of the team. So stating WoK getting chosen and Momoshirou missing the cut doesn't have to mean that WoK pair can play in doubles at higher level than Momoshirou.
-Hara is 1st stringer
-Hara play doubles as 1st stringer
-ALL of Hara match in the series are in doubles, and he play them as the 1st stringer
The first point is straight forward. It means Hara is 1st stringer level tier. The second and third point shows that he's capable of playing doubles at 1st stringer level.
-Momoshiro playing doubles manage to beat Hara/Taira
This is with the help of Kenya. We do not actually know if their hand break or not. It's something the series never confirmed I believe. But regardless, it shows that Momoshirou doubles can reach the level of 1st stringer.
-WoK lost to 3rd court pair
The score is 7-6 so the match is pretty close. By losing, they show that they are close in doubles to the pair that they lost to.
-WoK is suppose to be chosen as representative but reject and confirmed by Konomi to not be able to use Beast Syncho at will yet
The first part doesn't mean much by Konomi own statement and the fact that player that are weaker had been chose over better player already.
By not being able to use beast syncho, WoK doesn't have any improvement over their last match against 3rd court outside of U-17 camp training that everyone in the camp recieved.
-"From here on out, even going up 1 court number, is going up COMPLETELY different level of strength"
1st court>>>>>>>>2nd court>>>>>>>3rd court.
Enough said. It's going up 1 court number. It say "from here on out" which means from that point onward. 4 to 3 to 2 to 1.
If 3 is equal to 2 and equal to 1 it wouldn't be from here on.
That shows that there is different in strength between each court FROM THEN ON OUT.
I understand that discussions can get heated at times, but if you guys can't play nice you don't get to play. Please keep that in mind for next time and consider this a verbal warning. ~ Kaoz
Problem with WOK is that Hara gives them no panel time. There are so many characters in this series, loads of characters get sidelined. We don't know how WOK are now but overall they have been fairly disappointing. Seems like Hara wanted to change them into a doubles pairing rather than singles. MAYBE they still get a chance later but they aren't popular characters so maybe not.
After the most recent chapters. These would be my changes to the tier list. Maybe Akutsu should go down one spot but I am not sure. I think Kintaro is a better player than Sieg even though both are TNK users. Guys like Fuji, Sanada and Atobe lack new feats but they generally are around the same level and its hard to believe Sanada is already weaker than Kirihara.
Hard to judge Bertie since he was playing doubles and he frankly didn't outperform Niou. He is a pro but I didn't really see any feats that put him above the other guys in A+ tier.
S+ Tier
Tezuka
Yukimura
S Tier
Ryoma
Ludovic
S- Tier
TNK Kintaro
Akutsu
A+ Tier
Kirihara
TNK Siegfried
Atobe
Fuji
Niou
Sanada
Bertie
A- Tier
Osval
Henri Nobel
Shiraishi
Frankensteiner
Problem with WOK is that Hara gives them no panel time. There are so many characters in this series, loads of characters get sidelined. We don't know how WOK are now but overall they have been fairly disappointing. Seems like Hara wanted to change them into a doubles pairing rather than singles. MAYBE they still get a chance later but they aren't popular characters so maybe not.
After the most recent chapters. These would be my changes to the tier list. Maybe Akutsu should go down one spot but I am not sure. I think Kintaro is a better player than Sieg even though both are TNK users. Guys like Fuji, Sanada and Atobe lack new feats but they generally are around the same level and its hard to believe Sanada is already weaker than Kirihara.
Hard to judge Bertie since he was playing doubles and he frankly didn't outperform Niou. He is a pro but I didn't really see any feats that put him above the other guys in A+ tier.
S+ Tier
Tezuka
Yukimura
S Tier
Ryoma
Ludovic
S- Tier
TNK Kintaro
Akutsu
A+ Tier
Kirihara
TNK Siegfried
Atobe
Fuji
Niou
Sanada
Bertie
A- Tier
Osval
Henri Nobel
Shiraishi
Frankensteiner
Problem with WOK is that Hara gives them no panel time. There are so many characters in this series, loads of characters get sidelined. We don't know how WOK are now but overall they have been fairly disappointing. Seems like Hara wanted to change them into a doubles pairing rather than singles. MAYBE they still get a chance later but they aren't popular characters so maybe not.
This is exactly right. They just aren't given the time to improve. How are we suppose to know how much they improve without it being shown to us?
They probably improve without a doubt. That said, everyone ALSO improve because that's the point of U-17 camp. The question that need to answer is "HOW MUCH they improve" and that will only be find out with some matches that need to at least happen off scene.
Yuuta is also invited to U-17 camp and he also improved. It doesn't mean that we should assume he can now beat Fuji all of a sudden.
However, if he suddenly manage to beat former HS 1st stringer Kaji 6-0 assuming that Kaji stay at the camp and still can play, maybe we can assume that he can beat Fuji.
This is exactly right. They just aren't given the time to improve. How are we suppose to know how much they improve without it being shown to us?
They probably improve without a doubt. That said, everyone ALSO improve because that's the point of U-17 camp. The question that need to answer is "HOW MUCH they improve" and that will only be find out with some matches that need to at least happen off scene.
Yuuta is also invited to U-17 camp and he also improved. It doesn't mean that we should assume he can now beat Fuji all of a sudden.
However, if he suddenly manage to beat former HS 1st stringer Kaji 6-0 assuming that Kaji stay at the camp and still can play, maybe we can assume that he can beat Fuji.
I have not been in this conversation, and sorry if I seem biased, but lol at bringing up Yuuta being Shyusuke. It is possible, and should be possible to jump tiers, but the story generally doesn't show it. And you shouldn't just assume it could happen off-screen because then Horio could technically beat Kaidoh, we haven't seen either play in months!
I have not been in this conversation, and sorry if I seem biased, but lol at bringing up Yuuta being Shyusuke. It is possible, and should be possible to jump tiers, but the story generally doesn't show it. And you shouldn't just assume it could happen off-screen because then Horio could technically beat Kaidoh, we haven't seen either play in months!
This right here.
Pretty sure when tiering characters and what not, you have to use only their shown feats because anything could happen off-screen until a character shows what they learned off-screen it shouldn't count.
I thing moves/auras like the beast synchro really falls into that problem because not only would we need to assume they mastered it off-screen but also we have to assume it does anything. We never actually see the technique if i recall.
Close but still a clear downgrade. Byodoin illusion could not use glowing shot, he is a lot weaker.
So actually Bertie's strength is dependent on Niou. They should be on similar tier since they seemed to be fairly even against each other.
Now that I think of it, is the movie canon? Hiyoshi give Kirihara that was able to fight PoP rather evenly a good match. Does it means he's on that level?
Now that I think of it, is the movie canon? Hiyoshi give Kirihara that was able to fight PoP rather evenly a good match. Does it means he's on that level?
I am actually 99% sure that Jirou was refers to as Hyoutei number 2 in one of pair puri volume. I forgot which one though.
However, that was beginning of NPoT. I believe that things change. Oshitari was selected to be U-17 representative, so that do shows he had some kind of strength going for him. Or at least some potentials.
Hiyoshi as #2 is purely based on if the movie is canon or not lol. If it is, he gotta be it by being able to play with Kirihara that can play with PoP users. If it's not, then he's nowhere near it.
I am actually 99% sure that Jirou was refers to as Hyoutei number 2 in one of pair puri volume. I forgot which one though.
However, that was beginning of NPoT. I believe that things change. Oshitari was selected to be U-17 representative, so that do shows he had some kind of strength going for him. Or at least some potentials.
Hiyoshi as #2 is purely based on if the movie is canon or not lol. If it is, he gotta be it by being able to play with Kirihara that can play with PoP users. If it's not, then he's nowhere near it.
Now that I think of it, is the movie canon? Hiyoshi give Kirihara that was able to fight PoP rather evenly a good match. Does it means he's on that level? The thing I was thinking about recently is I wish the camp invited the other nonregulars. I'm sure Arai etc can't keep up, I'm sure they...
As of the latest chapter, it would seem like Niou completely surpass Yanagi of the big three of Rikkai?
He manage to do illusion of some extremely impressive people and I doubt Yanagi stand a chance anymore. He's even about to go against Duke somehow. Even if we don't know the score I don't think Konomi will make Niou look too bad because he's a fan favorite.
Niou has always been hard to tier because of that. You could argue he has been easily stronger ever since he perfected the zero shiki serve.
I think with proper prep time Yanagi could potentially see through the illusion and win the 1 on 1, even if overall he's weaker (much like... Inui against him).
