Discussion Mystery Team SPAIN

[ShadowHeart]

It's not even true they couldn’t beat Australia.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Maybe Germany would have been able to won with the upgrade they gotten in Japan match, but I will trust what is state in the series over any fans opinion.

USA beat Switzerland.

So like u said in my other thread. You think USA can beat Germany too?

Because you are like using a transitive analysis.

If A > B and B> C, then A>C

So before Germany's Semis Upgrades, you think USA and Switzerland have a legit chance of beating them? Just to be clear.

Also, how do we taken account upgrades? Did Germany Players only Develop their skills in semis? Because it is possible they already have those in their arsenal, they just didn't use it because it was not needed.

Does Tezuka only developed his UZ VS Yukimura? Does Volk only developed Volknado VS Byodoin?Does Doubles pro only developed their howling in semis?

 

[-Ken-]

Of course, it's possible that USA can beat Germany. I don't see at all why not?

 

[ShadowHeart]

Of course, it's possible that USA can beat Germany. I don't see at all why not?

They stand no chance or beating Germany. Volk and QP are stronger than Ralph. Tezuka would beat any other American rep. Then you have no 1 doubles pair in the tournament.

 

[-Ken-]

They stand no chance or beating Germany. Volk and QP are stronger than Ralph. Tezuka would beat any other American rep. Then you have no 1 doubles pair in the tournament.

Except they manage to beat Switz whom QP admit are overall stronger than their team.

Alright, show me definite proof from the manga that Tezuka can beat any America rep. Or that Volk and Qp are better than Raph.

Dodo is shown to guarantee to return glowing shot with ease. And judging from how glowing shot is treat by Byoudonin and Tokugawa, it's not really basic skills.

Raph lose to... Ryoga. Yeah big deal. I'm not certain of course, but I think Ryoga is better than Volk and QP. Raph losing to Ryoga doesn't mean he's weaker than Volk and QP. And he manage to beat Amadeus. That's someone that even upgraded Akutsu who probably can give Tezuka a good match is struggling to even a game from disregarding the whole match prior to the upgrade.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Except they manage to beat Switz whom QP admit are overall stronger than their team.

Alright, show me definite proof from the manga that Tezuka can beat any America rep. Or that Volk and Qp are better than Raph.

Dodo is shown to guarantee to return glowing shot with ease. And judging from how glowing shot is treat by Byoudonin and Tokugawa, it's not really basic skills.

Raph lose to... Ryoga. Yeah big deal. I'm not certain of course, but I think Ryoga is better than Volk and QP. Raph losing to Ryoga doesn't mean he's weaker than Volk and QP. And he manage to beat Amadeus. That's someone that even upgraded Akutsu who probably can give Tezuka a good match is struggling to even a game from disregarding the whole match prior to the upgrade.

It's pointless even discussing things with you. So I'm not even gonna bother.

 

[-Ken-]

Of course it's pointless. Because you can't prove your opinion with evidence from the manga lmao.

You just "think" Tezuka should be better than any american rep because you like Tezuka and you simply just "think" Raph shouldn't be as good as Volk or QP.

You are right. It is indeed pointless to argue with you. Because you can't back up anything with canon evidence and it's all simply your opinion. I'm glad you didn't bother lol. At least we agree on something.

I can back up every points I list there with pages from the manga. Can you do the same for your arguments?

 

[LetalHawk]

Ralph even commented on the latest fan book that after seeing Volk play in the pre WC, he was “shuddering from his bottomless strength”, meaning Volk is definitely stronger and would beat Ralph no problem. Even Konomi himself stated in the latest fan book that if Amadeus played Volk right now, Volk would win because the former wouldn’t be able to break through Volk’s defense and therefore lose.

Volk is the strongest pro, the only Hsers (aside from Byo who beat him but I think it was mainly plot) who are probably stronger are Ryoga and maybe Medanore if he’s recovered from his surgery and it’s in perfect condition.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Of course it's pointless. Because you can't prove your opinion with evidence from the manga lmao.

You just "think" Tezuka should be better than any american rep because you like Tezuka and you simply just "think" Raph shouldn't be as good as Volk or QP.

You are right. It is indeed pointless to argue with you. Because you can't back up anything with canon evidence and it's all simply your opinion. I'm glad you didn't bother lol. At least we agree on something.

I can back up every points I list there with pages from the manga. Can you do the same for your arguments?

I don't need to bother it clear Switzerland isn't all they've been cracked up to be. They lost against Australia and America. The same America team Who then got crushed 3-0 against Spain. Germany are the 9th time winners a row and gave Japan the matches of their life. You can cling on to they beat Japan 3-0 but only Duke and Akustu were only the truly elite Japanese players.

 

[-Ken-]

I don't need to bother it clear Switzerland isn't all they've been cracked up to be. They lost against Australia and America. The same America team Who then got crushed 3-0 against Spain. Germany are the 9th time winners a row and gave Japan the matches of their life. You can cling on to they beat Japan 3-0 but only Duke and Akustu were only the truly elite Japanese players.

That Ohmagari you look down on is enough to crush Yukimura and Renji lmao wut.

Spain strength is hidden and America is always mention by QP to be a dark horse team that Germany need to watch out for. That means America strength cannot be underestimate.

And despite losing Ryoga who might even be stronger than Volk/Bismarck/QP, America still manage to beat Switzerland who is state by QP to be #1 in overall strength. That for me means overall strength of America is more than QP thought it would be because after all Raph just organized this team and their real strength in U-17 cup is unknown. This is proven by QP statement that Raph "unite an army of unorganized elites and created the ultimate team". For you, instead of taking QP statement as real. You diss and ignore canon statement in the manga for no reasons other than you don't want to acknowledge Switzerland strength.

But of course, you know better than QP about Germany team strength lmao. Sure man.

Instead of Switzerland "isn't all they've been cracked up to be". Why not instead Spain and America are stronger than QP estimate? You really think Quality PERFECT cannot estimate a strength of another team compare to HIS OWN team? Yeah that sounds so believable. Wowza. Yes, you do need to make it clear why QP make a mistake on assuming another team is stronger than his own.

So why did QP knowing his team is 9th times champion team and have QP and Volk and Tezuka and Bismarck and 2 pros think Switzerland is overall stronger? Because QP is Quality Piss? Oh that makes perfect sense.

Here's the thing. I take every evidence in the series and put it together to make my points. You conveniently ignore the points that you want to ignore.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 20, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 20, 2022 ---

Ralph even commented on the latest fan book that after seeing Volk play in the pre WC, he was “shuddering from his bottomless strength”, meaning Volk is definitely stronger and would beat Ralph no problem.

Oh please. People shudder from seeing Tezuka all the time. Irie also shudder when he see Atobe upgrade. Irie can still beat him. I see it as a sign of respect.

Even Konomi himself stated in the latest fan book that if Amadeus played Volk right now, Volk would win because the former wouldn’t be able to break through Volk’s defense and therefore lose.

Volk is the strongest pro, the only Hsers (aside from Byo who beat him but I think it was mainly plot) who are probably stronger are Ryoga and maybe Medanore if he’s recovered from his surgery and it’s in perfect condition.

Byoudonin do beat Volk. But Volk is dominating the whole time. It do feel like plot. I don't think it's impossible for Raph to beat Volk as well. I do agree that Volk is probably overall stronger as a tennis player though.

Here's the thing. When a team is stronger than another team, it doesn't mean that the other team will beat another player 100% of the time. For example, Volk might beat Raph 6 or 7 out of 10 times. But he can still lose. If Tezuka play Yukimura again, he might also lose instead of win. This is the case in real life, and I don't see why it wouldn't be a case here.

Also, the strongest pro should have been Bundro, who is stated to be #1 ranked. That said, a lot of time pass since then so I guess Bundro can also retire.

 

[ShadowHeart]

I mean QP the guy who didn't even mention Spain as a threat and their at least the 3rd Strongest team. So yeah excuse me if I don't take his word at face value. Didn't even mention Australia who beat Switzerland as well.

 

[-Ken-]

Which means he overlook Spain team completely, and that he also fail to research about Noah. After all, he's human.

But he doesn't overlook Switzerland, does he? He research them and found them to be overall stronger than Germany. Unless he sucks at estimating, which doesn't seem to be the case. He even manage to do things like challenge a call in the match. It's clear to me that analyzing is QP strong suit.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Which means he overlook Spain team completely, and that he also fail to research about Noah. After all, he's human.

But he doesn't overlook Switzerland, does he? He research them and found them to be overall stronger than Germany.

Yeah and I'm showing you how wrong QP is. Also I'm sure it was mentioned QP only mention Switzerland in no.1 in terms of challenges. In which case he's even more wrong since Spain and America are better than Switzerland. If were being honest America 4-1 Switzerland in their match.

 

[Jyten]

@-Ken- @Tavor, I think you're both "correct" but it QP's statements are weighted for HS data. QP's statements for top tier U-17 HS data is probably pretty accurate (minus miracle level improvements PoT players just make for plot). QP's statements seem pretty reasonable to me.

QP's team strength assessment is probably 90% weighted towards HS data and 10% towards MS data. QP like every other HS probably thought all the MS players were trash and irrelevant. QP and Volk still feel like Tezuka is a "potential" player rather than a rival to them.

In the current U-17 format, the Swiss team is pretty weak. It's because their MS line up is either shallow or weak. U-17 officials told the teams a few months to a year before U-17 started? If Tezuka is a 35, Japan has like 14 - (35 - 28) level players? Whereas I bet most other countries had like 2 - (35-28) level characters and the rest at like Sengoku, Renji, Yushi, level. QP probably expected most teams to just have 2 and not 14.

It's still insane to me that Sengoku got in though. I hope it's just convenience that he got in? Yagyuu, Jackal, Momo, Kadioh, Inui, Tachibana, Chitose, Jiro, Kenya, Hiyoshi, ect all got burned. If Sengoku got in due being better than the rest, then we must all rate Sengoku way below his current/actual power level. WTF how!?

As a weird thought, I wonder if most pro players see the U-17 tournament as a for fun tournament rather than a serious tournament. Example, Byoudouin kills himself and probably effs up his chances for any other soonish tournament and Volk. If this was the finals at Wimbledon, I doubt Byoudouin wins as Volk probably matches Byoudouin level of hunger.

On topic, I bet it's an unknown 2st year MS player that is the 3rd best Spanish player. Spanish version of Akaya for Fuji.

 

[-Ken-]

Yeah and I'm showing you how wrong QP is. Also I'm sure it was mentioned QP only mention Switzerland in no.1 in terms of challenges. In which case he's even more wrong since Spain and America are better than Switzerland. If were being honest America 4-1 Switzerland in their match.

First, we're not sure how much better America is than Switzerland. Every match can simply be like Byoudonin vs Volk. Who knows?

Second, QP is only wrong in how strong Switzerland is compare to teams with unknown players that both America and Spain is. Heck, Spain is unknown Konomi barely even cover them in the databook. That's how unknown they are. There is absolutely nothing that suggest QP could have gotten the data wrong compare to Germany. And you still didn't provide any proof that QP is wrong in this regards.

So no, Switzerland as a team is not proven that it is weaker than Germany. At least, they are not weaker than Germany until the Germany upgrade in their match with Japan.

I ask for proof that Switzerland is weaker than Germany, not proof that Switzerland is weaker than Spain or America. Please provide ACTUAL evidence and not your opinion. You never answer my question that why is it that Spain or America is not stronger than QP estimate them to be but rather Switzerland is weaker than QP estimate them to be.

 

[ShadowHeart]

First, we're not sure how much better America is than Switzerland. Every match can simply be like Byoudonin vs Volk. Who knows?

Second, QP is only wrong in how strong Switzerland is compare to teams with unknown players that both America and Spain is. Heck, Spain is unknown Konomi barely even cover them in the databook. That's how unknown they are. There is absolutely nothing that suggest QP could have gotten the data wrong compare to Germany. And you still didn't provide any proof that QP is wrong in this regards.

So no, Switzerland as a team is not proven that it is weaker than Germany. At least, they are not weaker than Germany until the Germany upgrade in their match with Japan.

I ask for proof that Switzerland is weaker than Germany, not proof that Switzerland is weaker than Spain or America. Please provide ACTUAL evidence and not your opinion. You never answer my question that why is it that Spain or America is not stronger than QP estimate them to be but rather Switzerland is weaker than QP estimate them to be. Spain are unknown to us not the PoT world even Japan knew Spain were a threat. Yet QP didn't even mention them or Medanore a guy would've surpass Volk if not for his injury you know the no.1 player in this tournament and his captain. So yeah I can't take QP at his word since he was so wrong.

America didn't have any unknown players though. Ryoga and Ryoma left the team after the group stage. And yet America still beat them without the brothers. Switzerland only legit win against them was their HS strongest power pair that beat 2 MS. If the America S2 play didn’t give his his match to allow Ralph to play it would've been 3-1 win. Also we know Volk would defeat Amadeus so that 1 win for Germany. We also know that Germany Pro doubles pair are the no.1 doubles in this tournament so another win for Germany. And I'm pretty sure at least 1 of QP or Bsmarick would win the other single matches. And that's not even counting Tezuka who's better than any Switzerland MS.

 

[-Ken-]

America didn't have any unknown players though. Ryoga and Ryoma left the team after the group stage. And yet America still beat them without the brothers. Switzerland only legit win against them was their HS strongest power pair that beat 2 MS. If the America S2 play didn’t give his his match to allow Ralph to play it would've been 3-1 win. Also we know Volk would defeat Amadeus so that 1 win for Germany. We also know that Germany Pro doubles pair are the no.1 doubles in this tournament so another win for Germany. And I'm pretty sure at least 1 of QP or Bsmarick would win the other single matches. And that's not even counting Tezuka who's better than any Switzerland MS.

Hency why American is mention as a team that Germany need to watch out for, just like Japan. We knows that on paper, Germany is stronger than Japan. Yet Japan still manage to beat them. Japan was also a team to watch out for like America according to QP. So if a watch out team like Japan can beat Germany, why can't America beat Switzerland?

And what you say still all just fall under America being stronger than QP expected. It doesn't weaken Switzerland at all. As far as we know, no one from Switzerland leave the team.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Hency why American is mention as a team that Germany need to watch out for, just like Japan. We knows that on paper, Germany is stronger than Japan. Yet Japan still manage to beat them. Japan was also a team to watch out for like America according to QP. So if a watch out team like Japan can beat Germany, why can't America beat Switzerland?

And what you say still all just fall under America being stronger than QP expected. It doesn't weaken Switzerland at all. As far as we know, no one from Switzerland leave the team.

QP just overestimated Switzerland that's all it happens. We know Switzerland wasn't Germany biggest threat to their 9th straight win. Since America didn't have much trouble beating them without the brothers. And Spain easily beat America even without using their strongest line up. So even if we take Japan out of the equation. We still have Spain and America stronger than Switzerland. So we know QP wrong on that front.

 

[-Ken-]

Yes, QP is wrong. But he didn't overestimate Switzerland and there is nothing at all that prove that he did. QP simply underestimate Spain and America.

We're just going around in circle.

America is always stated by QP to be the team that they need to watch out for. And that team manage to beat Switzerland, so now Switzerland is weak? What? That doesn't make any sense at all. That means America is stronger than he estimate, not otherwise.

And QP never really mention spain before, which suggest he didn't do much research on them.

There is nothing at all that suggest he overestimate Switzerland, only that he doesn't do enough research on America and Spain.

Here's what happen.

Let's say QP estimate Germany power to be 8.5

He then estimate Switzerland to be 9. Hence, #1 in overall strength because it's stronger than them.

He never seem to really cover Spain, so he didn't estimate Spain.

They do research on America. And that they need to watch out for them as well there are number of players of interest. Let's say QP put America at 8 here.

America turn out that they can actually match Switzerland. You simply take this to means that since America somehow surely weaker than Germany, Switzerland must be weaker than 8 and ignore QP research before this. I myself take this to means America actual strength is actually a 9. It doesn't make sense that Switzerland would have been weaker than QP estimate. There is nothing in story at all that suggest Switzerland lose any players or any of its player got injured. So why would Switzerland be weaker than a 9 that QP estimate him? Because you don't believe America can beat Germany? But America just beat a team that Germany admit to have higher overall strength even without the Echizen brothers. What?

Your positions means ignoring statements from the manga. My positions takes statements from manga as canon and I simply apply them all as truth to find the conclusion.

 

[ShadowHeart]

I just don't take character statements at face value that's all. Especially when they've been wrong a few times.