Shoujo Nana by Ai Yazawa

Fujihara

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I don't know if that's him picking up on the fact that work/Trapnest/Reira is so important to Takumi - Fujihara makes a good point, he seems to be very sensitive to others' feelings like big Ren (although I think Hachi is, too)
Hachi BECOMES sensitive to other's feelings. Don't get me wrong, present Hachi is just so responsible. The one thing I can't get if she and Takumi are responsible in the same way and understand each other really well, or not. Sometimes they are so on the same page it seems like they're the perfect couple (even in the way they ignore each other), and sometimes it just seems like the way they think is too fundamentally different.

Over the course of the manga, I'd have to say she's the character who has grown up the most, but then it's supposed to be a coming of age story for her in a way right?

edit: I'm also going to agree with pretty much everything baboysai said. In any case, Reira has to go from eating from Takumi's hand (literally) to hating the guy, and I don't see how that's going to happen without Hachi and Taku getting closer before they get farther.

In any case, we only know the bare outline of the situation in the future. Honestly we don't really know what any of the characters are doing in any detail (except Nobu sort of). We don't know what kind of work Takumi is doing, or what Naoki is doing. It's really hard to assign any motives without a good understanding of context. :S
 
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baboysai

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I was really supportive of Hachi, and loved her for her strength and growth throughout the course of the manga. That's why when the latest chapter came out I was like, wtf? I thought that was very fickle of her to get carried away like that. -_-;
 

Himemo

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I thought Hachi actually didn't get carried away, and I thought that showed real growth for her. She's the one who stopped it between her and Nobu before anything happened - and not even because of her jerk husband, but because of *Yuri.* That's a lot of character growth for a girl who opened the manga trying not to think about the wife of the married man she was seeing.

She's in love with both Takumi and Nobu, and that's a very difficult situation to be in, I think. She has a family with Takumi, who is a jerk who treats her horribly, yet she still really loves him for some unfathomable-to-me reason; and then there's Nobu, whom she still loves, declaring his love and devotion to her (although Nana's definitely right - you have a girlfriend, Nobu). For a woman who has essentially been abandoned by her husband in the last trimester of her pregnancy (I know Takumi didn't technically leave her, but he's sure as hell not there for her), I think it takes a lot of strength not to...how do I say this. She could have easily used Nobu's love and support as a substitute for Takumi's, but she didn't. She considered other people's feelings - Yuri's, Nobu's, not really Takumi's, but he's a jerk so who cares - above her own needs.
 

baboysai

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

well sure she turned away at the last moment. But I still think they shouldn't have done that. hugging and stuff... thinking of "what if"s... maa, perhaps it was bound to happen because they were just overcome with grief somehow.

I think at this point Nobu decides that it's pointless to stay with Yuri because he still loves Hachi, and they break up. :s that's why in the future we don't see them together.
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

To me, it has always been obvious that Nobu loves Hachi dearly and i get the feeling he always will. He loves her enough to want to wait for her throughout the years. Even in the future , I think deep down he is still waiting for her.

Hachi is struggling between Nobu and Takumi. But despite everything she seems to have the strength to fight for a family with Takumi as her choice. The way she was brought up, she understands what it means to have a happy home and thats what she wants to give to her kids. This resolve is what makes her want to make it work/ stick with Takumi no matter what. I think this determination in the end will pay off and she will successfully create a happy home with Takumi (who is not a family man and is incapable of creating a happy home).

Shin? I dont know if Shin really loves Reira. Was Reira just lonely and looking for a replacement for Takumi? Regardless, during the incident of Ren's death, Shin pulled Reira aside and asked her to be considerate. I think their relationship was sexual relief and a diversion, an escape from loneliness and other problems...and then turned into friendship. It was strong but I dont think it can stand the test of time.

I also sense that at one point Reira will realise/find out that the woman Takumi really loves is Hachi. And that is bound to drive Reira crazy and thats when she would want to "take away everything that is Takumi's". I think Takumi only wants Hachi as his woman. Takumi has not expressed his love for Hachi clearly and convinced many of us that he actually loves her. I am expecting/hope to see it sometime.

I dont know what kind of relationship lilttle Ren has with Hachi and Satsuki. It will be really fun to watch them interact:)
Its interesting that lilttle Ren plays the guitar and Reira sings. Thats an interesting twist. We see Reira connected to the music and some consolation for Reira, in a way. I dont think there is much consolation for Reira beyond that. I see her ending up lonely and sad.
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

Wanted to try something new so i tried this manga. I'm at chapter 27 right now and man, while i'm getting further in the story the more fucked up it gets. How depressing can it get? Sheesh... Looking at it makes me see how bad a girl's life can be if she's as stupid as hachiko...
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I think little Ren doesn't want to go back to japan because of Nobou. Since after all Nobou might end up being one of the reasons why their family is going to split up. It might also be that he's trying to get his family back together since they're staying there to get Reira back? i don't know my memory is a little fuzzy. Oh and i don't think he has a father complex with Takumi, no reason really.

Also about Hachi in the recent chapters, she was always in love with Nobou. Her love with Takumi never really developed, well i think that at least, as much as how she loves Nobou but she was thinking about the child's life(because of how Shin's story). Which is why she decided to live with Takumi to establish that happy family. She also gave up Nobou because she didn't want to get in the way of them realizing their bands dream, let's not forget about that!

About the Twins thing, an ultrasound(her first ultrasound was at the 6th/8th? week) wouldn't be able to tell if they're twins or not until past around the 15th week ( 11th being the earliest but not likely to be able to tell ). I don't know when she last visited the Doctor, they were talking about the gender of the baby. Which can be determined by the 18th week, but Hachi asks the doctor that wasn't it too early and could they really tell the gender of the baby. Depending on how early, the possibility of twins is still viable even if it is unlikely.
 
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baboysai

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

well it's not as depressing as it's gonna get by those parts, croissant. good decision in picking up this manga, and you've got only 60 chapters more to go. it aint so bad to catch up :p

I actually think the angst lightens up a little when Takumi arrives ^^
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

Wanted to try something new so i tried this manga. I'm at chapter 27 right now and man, while i'm getting further in the story the more fucked up it gets. How depressing can it get? Sheesh... Looking at it makes me see how bad a girl's life can be if she's as stupid as hachiko...
welcome to the club croissant. i owe baboy-chan for this reco. one the very few mangas i follow and really appreciate for accurate capture of human weaknesses, strengths, realizations and growth.
well it's not as depressing as it's gonna get by those parts, croissant. good decision in picking up this manga, and you've got only 60 chapters more to go. it aint so bad to catch up :p

I actually think the angst lightens up a little when Takumi arrives ^^
yeah, yeah :nod i love that rogue.
 

Fujihara

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

To me, it has always been obvious that Nobu loves Hachi dearly and i get the feeling he always will. He loves her enough to want to wait for her throughout the years. Even in the future , I think deep down he is still waiting for her.
I don't think this is quite right. Nobu's not so stupid and naive that he would pin his future with a someone else's wife. The fact that he has strong feelings for Hachi is undeniable, but both Nobu and Nana know that his feelings for Hachi <should by social morals> have no future. For both Hachi's sake and his own sake, he's not been waiting-- he's been trying really hard to ignore/throw away his feelings for her. When he was talking about Ren too, [絶対誰にも触れない、俺の本音」"The true feelings that no one could touch," well in this line you can see that no one tried to listen to Nobu's true feelings for Hachi and he himself was trying so hard to ignore them.

That's why it was so painful and heart-wrenching for him to have Ren trying to open those feelings up, but why it's also so touching since Ren, knowing all the motives, tried to help Nobu be honest with those feelings and reconcile with them. In their hearts, both Nobu and Hachi know that they should have opened up to each other fully before ending their relationship and that they've been ignoring and running away from each other up until now-- and that's why this is also one of the miracles Ren has left behind him.

That's why before "social morality," accepting the truth, opening up to face reality and the reality of people's true feelings without running-- that takes more courage. If I were a parent I'd be proud of both Nobu and Hachi for being able to take a step forward, even if it took Ren's death to do so. While I don't think they should think of each other romantically, it's better if they both leave a mutual understanding of everything that happened/is happening. This both for the sake of their future relationship, whatever that might be (even just friends), and for the sake of Hachi's family with Takumi.

I think even Takumi would be understanding of what happened between them in the last chapters, since he's the closest thing this series has to a character who represents "facing the truth, whatever it may be."

So yeah, I also pretty much agree with everything Himemo said about Hachi and Nobu. I think what's going on kind of connects to what Nobu said before the fire works-- for her sake, he does not want to get in the way of her happiness, but if it looks like Takumi has left her miserable, he won't be able to leave her alone. For Nobu who is coming from dating the clingy girl Yuri, and he himself being the highly attention seeking and giving type of guy, he probably can't understand at all a guy like Takumi who can go half a month without contacting his wife. :P

Shin? I dont know if Shin really loves Reira. Was Reira just lonely and looking for a replacement for Takumi? Regardless, during the incident of Ren's death, Shin pulled Reira aside and asked her to be considerate. I think their relationship was sexual relief and a diversion, an escape from loneliness and other problems...and then turned into friendship. It was strong but I dont think it can stand the test of time.
If anything, the fact that Shin can scold Reira shows that their bond is really close, since he's in a position to do so. Actually I was really proud of Shin when he did that, because everyone-- Takumi, Yasu, Ren, and even Shin himself-- have always spoiled Reira too much, when in my opinion I don't think she should be with a man who can't be more honest with her.

Honestly, Reira kind of reminds me of earlier versions of Hachi sometimes-- she's always thinking of other people, but only from the context of herself. That seems to be one kind of behavior that Aizawa cannot forgive (she made Kyousuke smack around Shouji for doing the same thing-- "That feeling of wanting to apologize, that's not from kindness-- it's you just wanting to relieve yourself.").

It's the same thing when Reira was going to tell Nana that "it's my fault, Ren was trying to pick me up and met that accident." I can't blame Shin for getting pissed at her inability to look outside of herself to understand people's feelings. God, women are just so insensitive sometimes (lol). Or rather they get so caught up in their emotions, that sometimes a sharp guy like Takumi or Shin sees things more clearly.

In part, Shin really wants to protect his band-mates who he feels he betrayed with his own selfish actions; and in part I'm sure he is pissed at Reira's insensitivity, not only because her insensitivity really hurt Shin himself.

Actually, the fact that he's pissed shows the true strength of his feelings for her. If the woman I loved, and who I had decided to dedicate myself to, told me that she was leaving me for my sake (and I could tell she actually meant it)-- I too would want to lash out a lecture or two back at her about how stupid she's being. Nothing good ever comes from a woman trying to leave a guy "for his sake." Especially when she's got such weak will power and does it so half-assedly like Reira still clinging for attention and wanting e-mails and stuff. :/
 
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goal

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I like your take on Nana Fujihara and I respect your views.

In their hearts, both Nobu and Hachi know that they should have opened up to each other fully before ending their relationship and that they've been ignoring and running away from each other up until now
Very good observation!!

Regarding Reira/Shin, The point I was trying to make was that I dont see the Reira/Shin relationship standing the test of time because I dont think it is strong enough and as a reader i dont get the sense that it is pure enough either. I am not at all denying they are close. But I cant say Reira truly loved Shin because my take is that the only person Reira has ever really loved and wanted in Takumi.

When Shin pulled Reira away from Nana, after hearing of Ren's death, I dont think he did it because he was mad at Reira for personal reasons, because she had broken if off with him. At that point he just disliked the way Reira was acting and as a reader I got the feeling that scene showed me Shin wasnt into Reira that much from that point on.

I dont see Hachi and Reira in the same light. I see them as two very different people. Reira is not growing up at all. She wants to cling to Takumi and make her his, no matter what the price. Her selfishness is very blind. I dont think Hachi would have it in her to do that. Hachi has more of a conscience than Reira. Hachi is selfish as well but she has a much bigger heart than Reira. Hachi is no longer the little girl who needs to be taken care of while Reira still is.
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I dont see Hachi and Reira in the same light. I see them as two very different people. Reira is not growing up at all. She wants to cling to Takumi and make her his, no matter what the price. Her selfishness is very blind. I dont think Hachi would have it in her to do that. Hachi has more of a conscience than Reira. Hachi is selfish as well but she has a much bigger heart than Reira. Hachi is no longer the little girl who needs to be taken care of while Reira still is.
I totally agree. I think Hachi is also a little more mature when it comes to relationship cuz she has gone thru it a little. Unlike Reira who is a late bloomer.

After digging thru my closet looking for my box of manga, I finally found the 5 volumes of Paradise Kiss that I bought a couple years back. After I got thru reading it again, I have a feeling that Nobu and Hachi might end up together in the end. Then I read the scanlated chapters of Gokinjo Monogatari and Tenshi Nanka Ja Nai, that makes me feel more certain that Nobu will end up with Hachi. It might take them 10-15 years tho' so... :p

Looking at the two of them in the future chapters, we get a glimpse of their closeness and "in tune" with each other moment. As of right now, they are both only 20 years old. Love and relationship are still something most teenagers and young adults are still learning and as they grow older and hopefully more mature, they will realize that it takes a lot of hard work and togetherness for a marriage to work. (A 90 years old man quote me this, something to do with commitment). And I don't see it happening between Takumi and Hachi. You can see that Hachi is trying really hard committing herself to the marriage but Takumi is just more committed to Reira and Trapnest.

But, what I want to read right now is a conversation between mother and son. How can a son, who was raised mostly by his mother just not have a connection with the mother. Don't get me wrong. I don't doubt the love they have for each other. Looking at Satsuki and Hachi, you can tell pretty much that Hachi is a great mother and she really takes care of her child so why isn't there a glimpse of family interaction between the 2?
 

baboysai

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I dont see Hachi and Reira in the same light. I see them as two very different people. Reira is not growing up at all. She wants to cling to Takumi and make her his, no matter what the price. Her selfishness is very blind. I dont think Hachi would have it in her to do that. Hachi has more of a conscience than Reira. Hachi is selfish as well but she has a much bigger heart than Reira. Hachi is no longer the little girl who needs to be taken care of while Reira still is.
I think one of the reasons why Reira can't grow up is because she doesn't want to. She wants to stay in the past, a time when Takumi and she were inseparable, that time when they were still kids. She wants to preserve that bond she has with Takumi as much as she can, that's why I think she tells herself she can never change. Because that's the Reira that Takumi has always cherished.
 

goal

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I absolutely agree with your comments baboysai. Which is why I said i think Reira's going to end up sad and lonely. When Takumi asked her to decide between being one of his lovers or happiness Reira chose being one of Takumi's many lovers. She's just holding on to this unrealistic dream that she always knew she couldnt reach but is childishly/selfishly still chasing.
In my opinion, Reira's story is a sad one and in the future the fact that Reira is able to sing again when little Ren plays the guitar will be the only consolation Reira will be getting in the manga.

Ai Yazawa being a genius that she is, has created such mystery and anticipation with the flashes from the future and the narration at the beginning and end of the chapters. The flashes force us to speculate and also leave us with many unanswered questions....

Just like you sleepycat I am eager to see little Ren interact with Hachi and Satsuki. That'll answer a lot of questions instantly!!

I wonder and worry about Nana. I hope she is happy at the end of the manga. I think Hachi will end up happy!

You know whats been missing from Nana lately? Its the humour. I miss Junko. I enjoyed her chats with Hachi. I think this manga is now just about unfolding how each character is going to end up. I hope the manga isnt going to end soon........
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

@Goal-- I also respect your views (if that has to be said), and it's actually quite amazing how intelligent the discussion in this thread is. Maybe certain folks to certain manga.

Well I personally don't think that love has to be pure, and strength of love is all relative. People put far too much emphasis on romance. As long as you are a man and a woman, you should try to make things work. I strongly agree with Takumi on that-- love is something that can be made, and something that's never perfect.

@Ren and Satsuki-- I'm no Aizawa, but here's my 10 minute take on it:



Satsuki: I <3 my Niichan!
Ren: Yeah yeah ^w^;
 
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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

honestly, reira was just forging her romance w/ shin, but was interfered by the very person who unwittingly drove her to do such desperate move. but all along, its interesting to know if such patched-up kind of love will develop into something right and satisfactorily noble ...just like how hachi stubbornly tries to make the best out of the crappy life taku gave her because she decided to have faith in her man... all is not well in her part, but shes contentedly living a resigned existence by accepting things as consequences of her mischiefs ... i think it essentially made her a better and stronger person.. now if such resolve can only be seen in reira, i dont really think shin and reira shipping is imposibble.. they can have a kind of love that is founded on total acceptance of each other, and unselfishly complete each other. not all love started on romantic kind of love, and to boot, taku and hachi's isnt one of such kind, but i think its a higher, mature and resolved kind...one that gets developed and is being acquired.

and oh, hachi is still emotionally wavering between takumi and nobu...but isnt it clear that her resolve outweighed her emotion? that willpower to make right, is ai's recurrent point, i noticed.
 
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goal

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

Chapter 84 is available here.
http://mangahelpers.com/s/sinuse-scans/readonline/30756/1


It seems to be stressing on the distance between Hachi & Takumi. I think its a build up to Hachi finding out that Takumi slept with Reira.
(After Ren's death everything seems to be going downhill. I mean the mood is despressing. I hope Ai Yazawa lifts up the tempo a bit. But it doesnt seem likely)

So for the sake of fun and discussion,I wanna just guess whats going to happen in the furure.
Any guesses as to how Hachi is going to find out?

I think she might see Reira kissing Takumi on the lips or Reira just telling Hachi. I think Reira is going to play out to be the villain here.

And I think all that will lead to Ai Yazawa finally telling us who Takumi really loves. And my prediction is Takumi will finally confess his love for Hachi.

And then I think Hachi will despite all this choose to go back to Takumi which will make Nana breakdown and leave........for england?
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

^supposing that would be the storyflow, then why would taku and reira be in england too?

__________
seems the more statement confirming reira's love to be one sided, the more questionable taku's true feelings become..and shin's conclusive views[that reira's love is onesided] seems to have defeated its purpose. instead it makes it seem they will be proven otherwise in later chapters.
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

^^ Totally concur. Don't think Hachi and Takumi really have any feelings for each other anymore. I mean, come on, your wife is pregnant and you would rather stay with your lover and help her instead. Thank goodness Hachi is strong or she will probably lose the baby.

I was so happy reading the first few pages of this chapter, thanks for sharing, then it starts to go downhill again. When Hachi is hanging out with Nana and gang, they all seem so much happier. Enjoying their life as young adults, dealing with life situation as best as they could but then once Takumi or even any Trapnest member name is mentioned, everything got so depressing and sad.

@ Goal : I think that Hachi will probably find them lip locking. Plus, Shin confirmed Hachi's doubt by mentioning how Reira won't like it if she went and meet Takumi at the hospital. Hachi being as she is will probably run away instead of dealing with it.

Arghh... its so frustrating and screwy.


p/s - Forgot to mention that the first page/cover page, is showing us Hachi with no wedding ring?? hmm...
 
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goal

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

Yes I too noticed Hachi isnt wearing any wedding ring. Thats why I feel the story is going to continue to be depressing and downhill.

I hope its not.

Also your views on Reira & Takumi are making me second guess my views now.

I feel like some of the things I loved about this manga have disappeared. The humour, the Takumi x Hachi romance/plot, the band sturggling and having fun. If this story is coming to an end and about to reach a climax then this tone is alright. But if Ai Yazawa is planning to make it a little longer I hope the tempo changes.

Guys how long do you think this manga is going to go last? Any news? Any ideas?
 
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