Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

Rikudou King

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

What are you talking about? When did Mito every have that sensing ability? The sensing ability seems to be a by product of the seal his father placed on him, because the Kyuubi's chakra, or any Biju's chakra for that matter doesn't allow one to sense anything.
Obito mention upon Naruto first arriving on the battlefield that he had gained the same malice sensing ability that Mito had. So it seems like it's due to the Kyuubi's chakra, not the seal.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

I guess its similar to bees fist bump too

how he can tell everything about a persons character
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

That's due to the Kyuubi's chakra, it has nothin to do with the seal or Naruto or anything. Thought that was obvious...
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

yea i guess that does make sense

either way it is a convenient ability

i wonder what he sensed from sasuke. ...

i cant wait until he encounters oro and doesnt sense malice
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

If he did sense somethin from Sasuke, I'm guessing Sasuke isn't completely good or pure, unless Naruto can sense good intentions too.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Where did he sensed something IN Sasuke ???
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

I don't think we can call Sasuke's intentions good. His intentions may be going in Alliance's direction, but it doesn't mean it will lead to the same goal. Since Naruto recalled Itachi when Sasuke arrived, I'd say that's an indication that Sasuke isn't completely good. Although Naruto couldn't have sensed that because he wasn't in RM.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Naruto only recalled Itachi when Sasuke mention being the hokage. Minato definitely don't seem to have a problem with him.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

I think it's too early to tell Sasuke's intentions - people are just accusing him out of bias against him. Sasuke wanting to kill the Juubi/bijuu is no different from Minato killing the Iwa nins throughout the war, or Jiraiya trying to kill his former student. Whatever Naruto said, whether kill the Juubi or not, if Sasuke disagreed either way people would still complain or find a way to complain. If Sasuke refused to kill the Juubi because he thought the bijuu could be saved, people would call him an idiot for risking the Alliance's lives. I have yet to see more than two or three people blame Naruto for not telling Sasuke or anyone else about the bijuu, considering it is his fault. He has the info, he needs to share it, otherwise the blame rests solely on him.

And that whole "Sasuke should listen to Naruto!" is a bullshit excuse, in my opinion.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Roman said:
I don't think we can call Sasuke's intentions good. His intentions may be going in Alliance's direction, but it doesn't mean it will lead to the same goal. Since Naruto recalled Itachi when Sasuke arrived, I'd say that's an indication that Sasuke isn't completely good. Although Naruto couldn't have sensed that because he wasn't in RM.
Sasuke's intentions ARE good. He intends to protect Konoha. He intends to honor his dead brother's last wish. These aren't bad at all. It's his means to realizing his intentions that are bad (Bijuu genocide, that is).
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Sasuke's intentions ARE good. He intends to protect Konoha. He intends to honor his dead brother's last wish. These aren't bad at all. It's his means to realizing his intentions that are bad (Bijuu genocide, that is).
His intentions can be that of a saint but that means nothing if he wants to achieve them through immoral decisions. That's why I said he isn't completely good, because he won't be, if he goes with the genocide. His subjective opinion on what's good doesn't matter when we speak about good intentions in general.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

His intentions can be that of a saint but that means nothing if he wants to achieve them through immoral decisions. That's why I said he isn't completely good, because he won't be, if he goes with the genocide. His subjective opinion on what's good doesn't matter when we speak about good intentions in general.
Thing is Sasuke doesn't know about the true nature of the Biju, so you can't fault him for making immoral decisions when he doesn't know they are immoral, no one but Naruto knows they are.

And even if he did know, can we fault him for weighing the fate of humans over the fate of 9 beings that aren't human, and weren't supposed to be with humans in the first place? Sasuke's goal is to protect Konoha and protect humans. Getting into the whole argument about weighing the lives of humans against the lives of Biju is a very deep and complex thing. IMO, you can't really fault Sasuke for having the best interest of his species in mind.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

But why is killing the bijuu immoral, especially when it's to save the world? I don't get the double standard here; people keep whining about Sasuke wanting to kill the bijuu but praise people like Minato and Hashirama for killing enemies.... It's basically the same thing. Besides, Sasuke doesn't know that the bijuu are good, he like so many others think the bijuu are evil.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Thing is Sasuke doesn't know about the true nature of the Biju, so you can't fault him for making immoral decisions when he doesn't know they are immoral, no one but Naruto knows they are.

And even if he did know, can we fault him for weighing the fate of humans over the fate of 9 beings that aren't human, and weren't supposed to be with humans in the first place? Sasuke's goal is to protect Konoha and protect humans. Getting into the whole argument about weighing the lives of humans against the lives of Biju is a very deep and complex thing. IMO, you can't really fault Sasuke for having the best interest of his species in mind.
I agree to some point. The reason I think Sasuke isn't yet what I'd call good is because he practically ignored Naruto's reaction. There must be a reason why Naruto wants to save them, but Sasuke just didn't care to know. I still hope he'd want to know before making such rash decision into the action.

But that's the difference between the good in Naruto and the "good" in Sasuke. Naruto would want to try and find a way to save everything that deserves to be saved, whereas Sasuke chooses the easy and mildly immoral way of saving people by destroying anything out of the ordinary. Hashirama, Madara, Mito and all others viewed the Bijuu as a mass of energy without trying to understand them. Similar thing is with Sasuke, only he wants to destroy them instead of controlling them. Which further brings hatred in the shinobi world. I understand collateral damage in war, but if it can be avoided, a normal person would do anything to make it happen.

---------- Post added at 09:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 PM ----------

But why is killing the bijuu immoral, especially when it's to save the world? I don't get the double standard here; people keep whining about Sasuke wanting to kill the bijuu but praise people like Minato and Hashirama for killing enemies.... It's basically the same thing. Besides, Sasuke doesn't know that the bijuu are good, he like so many others think the bijuu are evil.
Because they're not the source of evil or danger to peace. Simple. There's no double standard here, Minato's or Hashirama's killings were justified because the lives of their people was in danger. Just like here, when the whole world is in danger. Yeah, I kinda hope he gets the memo.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

I agree to some point. The reason I think Sasuke isn't yet what I'd call good is because he practically ignored Naruto's reaction. There must be a reason why Naruto wants to save them, but Sasuke just didn't care to know. I still hope he'd want to know before making such rash decision into the action.
And like I've said a thousand times, what reason does Sasuke have to listen to Naruto? Naruto is just going on and on saying "listen to me" but isn't giving anyone a reason to do so.

His status of Jinchuriki means little, because until the start of the war his knowledge of the Sage, Biju's, and what it meant to be a Jinchuriki was elementary at best. And that is what Sasuke is going on. Hell, Sasuke had met just as many Jin's as Naruto had up until Naruto met all of them in the "inner world".

Naruto has always been a battle savvy person who is an idiot when it comes to all other matter according to Sasuke. And frankly, that vision of Naruto is still kind of correct. So can we really fault Sasuke for not listening to Naruto? Sasuke is a smug prick and always has supreme confidence in himself, but Naruto hasn't given him any real reason to be confident in him yet.

But that's the difference between the good in Naruto and the "good" in Sasuke. Naruto would want to try and find a way to save everything that deserves to be saved, whereas Sasuke chooses the easy and mildly immoral way of saving people by destroying anything out of the ordinary. Hashirama, Madara, Mito and all others viewed the Bijuu as a mass of energy without trying to understand them. Similar thing is with Sasuke, only he wants to destroy them instead of controlling them. Which further brings hatred in the shinobi world. I understand collateral damage in war, but if it can be avoided, a normal person would do anything to make it happen.
There is nothing easy about destroying the Biju. And these things aren't simply "out of the ordinary". They are giant chakra monsters, who for decades have done nothing but kill and be used as weapons. Their only saving grace is that they are intelligent beings who can be good. But they can also be really really bad.

Mito who seemed to be a peace loving woman contained the Kyuubi and never seemed to come to the same conclusions as Naruto. I don't think it's so much than people failed to understand the Biju, it's the fact that humans will understand them but use them for weapons anyway. I forget what chapter it was, but the Kyuubi remembers the words of Madara, Hashiram, Mito and Kushina. They all basically amounted to that the Kyuubi was a weapon would be used to harm people, or he was too dangerous to be let free. That is never going to change, unless we use Shouen logic, aka the logic Naruto is using.

IMO, Sasuke is a representation of someone who uses real world logic. Naruto is a representation of someone who uses fantasy logic.

You talk about collateral damage, but fail to realize the future damage the Biju can cause if they are allowed to exist on earth in the future. Their existence will always put humans at risk. That can't be ignored.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

And like I've said a thousand times, what reason does Sasuke have to listen to Naruto? Naruto is just going on and on saying "listen to me" but isn't giving anyone a reason to do so.

His status of Jinchuriki means little, because until the start of the war his knowledge of the Sage, Biju's, and what it meant to be a Jinchuriki was elementary at best. And that is what Sasuke is going on. Hell, Sasuke had met just as many Jin's as Naruto had up until Naruto met all of them in the "inner world".

Naruto has always been a battle savvy person who is an idiot when it comes to all other matter according to Sasuke. And frankly, that vision of Naruto is still kind of correct. So can we really fault Sasuke for not listening to Naruto? Sasuke is a smug prick and always has supreme confidence in himself, but Naruto hasn't given him any real reason to be confident in him yet.



There is nothing easy about destroying the Biju. And these things aren't simply "out of the ordinary". They are giant chakra monsters, who for decades have done nothing but kill and be used as weapons. Their only saving grace is that they are intelligent beings who can be good. But they can also be really really bad.

Mito who seemed to be a peace loving woman contained the Kyuubi and never seemed to come to the same conclusions as Naruto. I don't think it's so much than people failed to understand the Biju, it's the fact that humans will understand them but use them for weapons anyway. I forget what chapter it was, but the Kyuubi remembers the words of Madara, Hashiram, Mito and Kushina. They all basically amounted to that the Kyuubi was a weapon would be used to harm people, or he was too dangerous to be let free. That is never going to change, unless we use Shouen logic, aka the logic Naruto is using.

IMO, Sasuke is a representation of someone who uses real world logic. Naruto is a representation of someone who uses fantasy logic.

You talk about collateral damage, but fail to realize the future damage the Biju can cause if they are allowed to exist on earth in the future. Their existence will always put humans at risk. That can't be ignored.
Naruto is his best friend, basically. That's the only reason he needs. Not to mention that Sasuke also probably knows the influence that Naruto has on other people. Naruto may be stupid, but when it comes to understanding people and emotions, Sasuke should listen to him a like a kid does his parents.

And why were they killing and used as weapons? People. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. I assume you're familiar with the phrase. They were never good because they didn't have ANY reason to. They've been used for decades until someone like Naruto appeared, who freed them all from the hatred and sadness they carried because of people.

Actually, that's the sole problem right there. They were deciding their fate without even trying to understand them. They're not tools or some dead things. they're living creatures, able to respond with emotions and cooperate with people if they let them to. NO ONE but Naruto did that. Only one person was needed to change their attitude.

A real world logic would be destroying Germans for good when Hitler fell but the world let it slide. No, wars need emotions and empathy more than cold and ruthless logic.

Not really. Except maybe, and just maybe if another Madara appears, but that's highly unlikely after this. Since they're understood now, every citizen in Konoha and the world would understand them. Kurama acted like a friggin' Captain in one of the chapters which was awesome. Which further brings an idea on what they could accomplish with people.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Naruto is his best friend, basically. That's the only reason he needs. Not to mention that Sasuke also probably knows the influence that Naruto has on other people. Naruto may be stupid, but when it comes to understanding people and emotions, Sasuke should listen to him a like a kid does his parents.
Sasuke hasn't been friends with Naruto for years, Naruto simply hung on to the fact that they were friends. Sasuke tried to kill Naruto, Sakura and Kakashi on multiple occasions. Let's not hide the facts here, Sasuke doesn't consider Naruto his friend right now.

And Sasuke should listen to him? Why is that? Naruto's credibility holds no weight for me the reader anymore because of how unrealistic it is. Sasuke is the best example of someone in the real world IMO thanks to how his emotions rule him and how he actually thinks. Everyone following Naruto for the most part has been doing so for no reason at all and it's sickening. Gone are the days when he actually made connections with people like Neji or Gaara, now he just spouts BS out of his mouth and everyone agrees because the plot demands it.

And why were they killing and used as weapons? People. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. I assume you're familiar with the phrase. They were never good because they didn't have ANY reason to. They've been used for decades until someone like Naruto appeared, who freed them all from the hatred and sadness they carried because of people.
This only supports why they need to leave even more. People are the problem and they always will be. You can try and change and educate people but that won't work %100, so you need to take other measures to make people less dangerous. In this case getting rid of the Biju through death or exile is helping to do that. The human condition is a terrible thing, and it's a sad truth that we can't evolve fast enough to stop being our own worst enemies.

Actually, that's the sole problem right there. They were deciding their fate without even trying to understand them. They're not tools or some dead things. they're living creatures, able to respond with emotions and cooperate with people if they let them to. NO ONE but Naruto did that. Only one person was needed to change their attitude.
The fact that 4 other people communicated with the Biju means they were understood, but the Biju failed to get their point across, hence why they were kept being seen as weapons.

A real world logic would be destroying Germans for good when Hitler fell but the world let it slide. No, wars need emotions and empathy more than cold and ruthless logic.
Last I checked both the Germans and the Japanese hand their armies disbanded, weapons destroyed, and means of creating weapons limited. That's what Sasuke is trying to do. He's not killing people, he's destroying weapons. You can't blame him for things he and EVERYONE but Naruto don't know.

Your analogy is off because in the real world we do execute people or we imprison them. Death or Exile. If Sasuke knew the Biju were sentient, I don't think he'd against exiling them so long as they could never return to the human world. He's treating them as weapons, and frankly he's only after the Juubi which is acting nothing like the Biju. Naruto is the one who wants to risk trying something that might not even work.

Not really. Except maybe, and just maybe if another Madara appears, but that's highly unlikely after this. Since they're understood now, every citizen in Konoha and the world would understand them. Kurama acted like a friggin' Captain in one of the chapters which was awesome. Which further brings an idea on what they could accomplish with people.
Every person in the world? Thus far only 6 nations from 1 continent are on in on the alliance, and non of their civilians are present, only Shinobi and Samurai. Let's not stretch things. A small percentage of people support the ideas that Naruto and the alliance have put foward, and it remains to be seen if all of them are willing to keep going along with it. This like minded people are only like minded people Naruto exists, what happens when he dies? Let's not be so naive to think that people are following him just because he says the right things, it's also because they know they can't do anything about it if they disagree with him. This is excusing the fact that what Naruto has done would never fly in any real world scenario.
 
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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Because they're not the source of evil or danger to peace. Simple. There's no double standard here, Minato's or Hashirama's killings were justified because the lives of their people was in danger. Just like here, when the whole world is in danger. Yeah, I kinda hope he gets the memo.
Neither were the people that Minato and Hashirama killed, they just wanted to win the war and see their village prosper. Just like how Sasuke wants to win the war and establish peace, protecting Konoha and see it prosper. The lives of the Alliance are in danger too. There is a major double standard, and it's all because of bias. What if Naruto's high-risk plan fails, and the Juubi goes on a rampage when Sasuke's way would have taken it out, maybe allowed Naruto to save the bijuu?


Until Naruto actually takes the time to explain it to EVERYONE, no one is gonna get the memo, they'll be focused on killing the bad thing.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

I agree to some point. The reason I think Sasuke isn't yet what I'd call good is because he practically ignored Naruto's reaction. There must be a reason why Naruto wants to save them, but Sasuke just didn't care to know. I still hope he'd want to know before making such rash decision into the action.
Given Naruto's history and what Sasuke knew about him personally, why would Sasuke presume there was any reason behind Naruto's action? Naruto's habit of acting without considering the possible consequences means relying completely on faith in things just working out. Sasuke's not the type to rely solely on faith. And that really can't be called a rash decision when that has been the set goal the entire time. It's not as if he came up with the idea to destroy the Juubi on a whim.
 

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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Given Naruto's history and what Sasuke knew about him personally, why would Sasuke presume there was any reason behind Naruto's action? Naruto's habit of acting without considering the possible consequences means relying completely on faith in things just working out. Sasuke's not the type to rely solely on faith. And that really can't be called a rash decision when that has been the set goal the entire time. It's not as if he came up with the idea to destroy the Juubi on a whim.
It seems that he asked him and got his answer in the current chapter.
 
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