Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[jaymizzo]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

"Itachi's power is flowing into me" - Yeah,Itachi's power was flowing into him to restore the power that has been lost (His vision and if he does become blind how would he able to use Amaterasu or even normal Sharingan genjutsu,Both of which are his own powers.)

Again, that does not change the fact that someone elses power was flowing into him. He was not restoring his power on his own.

And Im pretty sure Itachi mentioned as well as Tobi that Madara became more powerful after obtaining the EMS. I will find the chapter. Unless ofcourse I remember wrong.

"I can feel myself getting stronger" - Getting stronger in that state of his then.He was weakened and he was getting stronger in his weakened state,He was getting back the vision and the ocular powers.

You interpret it while completely changing the context of the statement. Saying that one is getting stronger means you are getting additional power. If Sasuke was really just getting his powers back he would say so. Not that he was getting stronger.

Stop taking things out of context to feed your argument.

His overall abilities weren't enhanced.His Physical strength,Stamina,Speed haven't been enhanced.He restored his vision and the powers associated with his MS.His techniques didn't change in power.He didn't even get any weaponry like Yata mirror and Totsuka sword.He didn't get access to any new techniques.

The moment Sasuke awoke the Sharingan his attributes went up and he gained additional abilities. Every evolution afterwords gave him something extra. Naruto had no such thing. Once HE controlled/befriended the Kyuubi he himself got his attributes hightened. Do not forget that.

Naruto had everything enhanced for him.He now has access to literally tons of chakra (Well he always had but he had to let Kyuubi take over him).

Again, please do not ignore that Sasuke or any Uchiha for that matter gains abilities once they achieve the Sharingan and evolve it further. You are trying so hard to make it out as if Naruto is the only one who has gained anything additional through his respective power.

And Naruto has always had a huge Chakra reserve, not because of the Kyuubi.

His chakra shroud's defence is fantastic.

Susano'o

His physical strength has been enhanced by a great margin.

Is that not an attribute of Sage Mode?

He is very very quick.

Susano'o, Susano'o Arrows, Amaterasu and MS Genjutsu all have something in common with that.

All of this just by befriending the Kyuubi.

Such an easy task eh? Is that why Naruto of all the Kyuubi Jins is the only one who was able to do so?

Also dont forget the abilities Sasuke got by simply getting the Sharingan and later the Mangekyou.

He didn't really fight Dark Naruto in him,He just hugged him and DN dissapeared.

No, Naruto fought his dark self and came to the realisation that it is futile and he simply had to accept his hatred. Why the hell are you trying to make all his accomplishments seem like a walk in the park.

He didn't fight the Kyuubi himself to gain it's chakra,Kushina appeared and helped him

Naruto had to basically outmatch Sasuke for him to awaken a 2/3 Tomoe.
Itachi had to practically let himself get killed by Sasuke for him to gain the MS.
Itachi had to hound Sasuke to fuel his hatred which powers his Sharingan.

Its a long road this can lead to. I do not see your point at all.

While Sasuke didn't have any drastic improvements in his abilities.

Are you somehow ignoring how early Sasuke gained his Sharingan? The MS? The CS? Dear me, you are taking bias to a completely new level.

There's no concrete proof of Sasuke getting Itachi's "power",Whatever it is supposed to be.

I doubt anyone claimed that Sasuke gained Itachis specific powers. I retract my comment if you can show me where I or anyone during this discussion has said so.

There's no clear evidence that Sasuke got Itachi's chakra reserves through the eyes.
Itachi relies on genjutsu which cannot be transfered to Sasuke directly.The user needs to be skilled and it's not something that can be given to others.Itachi doesn't have much to offer.Sasuke didn't get a hybrid Susanoo by implanting Itachi's eyes did he? (Besides Itachi's version of Susanoo seems to be weak)

You say that there is no facts supporting Sasuke gaining anything from taking Itachis eyes (a manga scan says different) but you factually act as if Sasuke gained nothing when he himself said he was getting stronger.

No he didn't.He simply got back his vision and the ability to use Amaterasu.

So the EMS does not offer anything else right? Its just getting your eyesight back. Are you kidding me?

 

[Rikudou King]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

Both. Skills are evident, you can't really predict who's better because they both reached unbelievable heights of power. Intelligence, well, in the last few chapters, you've seen how intelligent Naruto can be. Sasuke is more intelligent overall, but Naruto surprises us each time in the face of danger.

Given that Naruto couldn't even explain what he had done, I wouldn't say that. It all seems instinctual to him. It was the same with creating the FRS, he knew what to do without actually knowing what he was doing. Instead of intelligence, I would say Naruto had incredible wisdom.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

Given that Naruto couldn't even explain what he had done, I wouldn't say that. It all seems instinctual to him. It was the same with creating the FRS, he knew what to do without actually knowing what he was doing. Instead of intelligence, I would say Naruto had incredible wisdom.

Agreed.

 

[Schabrak]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

Instead of intelligence, I would say Naruto had incredible wisdom.

+ talent.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

+ talent.

Talent goes somewhere along the lines of genius. While I agree with you, a lot of people don't think he has talent. For example, him creating Rasenshuriken, an above S-rank technique isn't a genius feat at all. Instead, his "hax" of almost infinite KB is the reason he could do it, also, because of Kakashi. Yeah, Kakashi pointed him in the right direction and Rasenshuriken was instantly created so Naruto got almost no credit at all. Of course, I'm being sarcastic, but a lot of people actually think this way, which is, sorry to say, fucking ridiculous.

This also goes the same when Kurama is involved. A lot of Naruto's feats are done thanks to Kurama and it's been said that he couldn't do more than half of shit he's done without Kurama. But the thing is that that logic could go deeper. Is there any other shinobi who could contain Kurama inside them? Is there any other shinobi who could mix his chakra with him and befriend him? No, there isn't. From that angle, Naruto was born with those abilities and could be considered something that is extraordinary because it doesn't happen quite often, the same as, let's say, an Uchiha who got his Sharingan to EMS. But the problem lies in the way it's looked at.

A lot of people think that a genius has to be proclaimed as such with an etiquette from an early age with appraisal, dominance and similar shit. It's unthinkable that an individual could be something along the lines of a genius but not knowing that as a fact. Which is exactly what Naruto was and what makes him different from, let's say, Neji, who knew he was a genius since the day he started walking. Knowing and not knowing can make a difference such as day and night. But I guess people don't like to think outside of the box and see only what's literally written or said.

 

[jaymizzo]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

A lot of people think that a genius has to be proclaimed as such with an etiquette from an early age with appraisal, dominance and similar shit. It's unthinkable that an individual could be something along the lines of a genius but not knowing that as a fact. Which is exactly what Naruto was and what makes him different from, let's say, Neji, who knew he was a genius since the day he started walking. Knowing and not knowing can make a difference such as day and night. But I guess people don't like to think outside of the box and see only what's literally written or said.

People have a very thin understanding of what a genius is at all. Most people only go by intellectual brilliance. Forgetting a genius could be creative too. Still, opening this can of worms will lead to nowhere, the thread "Concept of Genius" is proof of this.

When it comes to the Kyuubi thing, Its just funny because people refuse to apply the same logic to anyone else. Its not okay for Naruto to use the Kyuubis power it seems and people go to great lengths to diminish any of his accomplishments.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

This also goes the same when Kurama is involved. A lot of Naruto's feats are done thanks to Kurama and it's been said that he couldn't do more than half of shit he's done without Kurama. But the thing is that that logic could go deeper. Is there any other shinobi who could contain Kurama inside them? Is there any other shinobi who could mix his chakra with him and befriend him? No, there isn't. From that angle, Naruto was born with those abilities and could be considered something that is extraordinary because it doesn't happen quite often, the same as, let's say, an Uchiha who got his Sharingan to EMS. But the problem lies in the way it's looked at.

Well, Mito and Kushina were able to contain the Kyuubi in them. Tobi also contained and overpowered the Juubi's control over him. I think it was Minato who designed the seal to let the Kyuubi's chakra mix in with Naruto... but chances are Kushina could also withstand the potent chakra of the Kyuubi's (read Yamato's explanation to Naruto and what he was thinking about Naruto after Naruto went full Four-Tailed Kyuubi and was turned back to normal by Yamato) since both are known to have exceptional chakra. If Hashirama wanted or grew up with Kyuubi the way Naruto did, he could possibly befriend the Kyuubi too. Same can go for Jiraiya, Kakashi, and Minato, given the kind of people they are.

Naruto wasn't born with the ability to befriend Kyuubi though, no one is born with that. His shitty upbringing affected his personality, which he changed to a positive thing (if Kakashi was right and Naruto stopped crying and started doing something about his life). Naruto's experiences and personality allowed him to befriend the Kyuubi. It's debatable if Naruto would have been the way he is now had he had parents or a bond since he was little.

A lot of people think that a genius has to be proclaimed as such with an etiquette from an early age with appraisal, dominance and similar shit. It's unthinkable that an individual could be something along the lines of a genius but not knowing that as a fact. Which is exactly what Naruto was and what makes him different from, let's say, Neji, who knew he was a genius since the day he started walking. Knowing and not knowing can make a difference such as day and night. But I guess people don't like to think outside of the box and see only what's literally written or said.

But Naruto hasn't proven to be a genius the way Sasuke, Itachi, and Kakashi have. Hell, before the whole war bullshit, Minato was considered a genius too for having have invented three jutsu. It seems FRS is his only ticket to being considered any kind of genius, along with his random smart moments (still upsets me that Kishi screwed Naruto up after the fight with Pain).

I may defend Sasuke, but that's because of the members. I'm more invested in and care about Naruto, so any criticizing comments I make are as a fan of Naruto.

 

[Rikudou King]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

+ talent.

Obviously. But it's his wisdom that's currently allowing him to outdo the more intelligent characters in solving the current problems, despite them being just as talented as him.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

Well, Mito and Kushina were able to contain the Kyuubi in them. Tobi also contained and overpowered the Juubi's control over him. I think it was Minato who designed the seal to let the Kyuubi's chakra mix in with Naruto... but chances are Kushina could also withstand the potent chakra of the Kyuubi's (read Yamato's explanation to Naruto and what he was thinking about Naruto after Naruto went full Four-Tailed Kyuubi and was turned back to normal by Yamato) since both are known to have exceptional chakra. If Hashirama wanted or grew up with Kyuubi the way Naruto did, he could possibly befriend the Kyuubi too. Same can go for Jiraiya, Kakashi, and Minato, given the kind of people they are.

Naruto wasn't born with the ability to befriend Kyuubi though, no one is born with that. His shitty upbringing affected his personality, which he changed to a positive thing (if Kakashi was right and Naruto stopped crying and started doing something about his life). Naruto's experiences and personality allowed him to befriend the Kyuubi. It's debatable if Naruto would have been the way he is now had he had parents or a bond since he was little.



But Naruto hasn't proven to be a genius the way Sasuke, Itachi, and Kakashi have. Hell, before the whole war bullshit, Minato was considered a genius too for having have invented three jutsu. It seems FRS is his only ticket to being considered any kind of genius, along with his random smart moments (still upsets me that Kishi screwed Naruto up after the fight with Pain).

I may defend Sasuke, but that's because of the members. I'm more invested in and care about Naruto, so any criticizing comments I make are as a fan of Naruto.

Mito and Kushina are his relatives so they don't really count since they are, in this kind of discussion, exceptional as well as Naruto is. Tobi had Hashirama's help, Rinnegan and other shit so I don't count that as impressive. I don't think he specifically designed the seal so Naruto's chakra could mix with it. If he did, he would've had to design it for himself as well, but voila, he couldn't and he's using Kurama's chakra like his right arm. Since Naruto is so special because of his personality, the chances are they couldn't. Kakashi, Jiraiya and Minato aren't of Senju heritage (how Minato uses Kurama's chakra is beyond me and I expect an explanation soon). And there's befriending. While that isn't any sort of special ability, it is a trait that no one did or succeeded in, ever.

No one, except Naruto, that is. They all had a shitty upbringing. Sasuke, Neji, for instance, two Geniuses who were praised all their life suffered almost as much as Naruto did but they ended up on the wrong path (until Naruto dealt with it or will deal with it). The fact is that no one accomplished such feats with Kurama, ever. Also, it is more of a question in can than want. No one tried this before probably because they never believed that they could actually get on good terms with Kurama and use his massive power. It's ridiculous to discuss this in such a way so I'm gonna go in absolute: no one did it before and therefore it's something that it's extraordinary, regardless of what someone else could or would have done.

No one ever said that Naruto is a Genius in the same way as the individuals you mentioned, not by a long shot. They all showed signs of Genius from early age and were praised for it. Irl, that gives any person a boost in self-confidence which then results boost in performance, let alone ego. Naruto was a sorry mo-fo in the early years, everyone hated his guts and he was miserable. How could a person in such a state discover his abilities when everyone denies his existence, let alone trivial things making a KB? That's the whole purpose of Naruto as a character. Once everyone started gradually acknowledging him, the signs of extraordinary and Genius feats started to show.

 

[Knight of Stalwart Heart]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Again, that does not change the fact that someone elses power was flowing into him. He was not restoring his power on his own.

And Im pretty sure Itachi mentioned as well as Tobi that Madara became more powerful after obtaining the EMS. I will find the chapter. Unless ofcourse I remember wrong.

Yeah he was restoring his power.His power didn't grew beyond what he had before he started losing his sight (Well by implanting EMS,he now doesn't get much stressed than he did before,But how is that an actual power? ) Iam taking the whole "Itachi's power" as vision or just something which restored his vision.

You interpret it while completely changing the context of the statement. Saying that one is getting stronger means you are getting additional power. If Sasuke was really just getting his powers back he would say so. Not that he was getting stronger.

Stop taking things out of context to feed your argument.

Spoiler

Here Sasuke says that he wants to destroy Naruto with his full powers.He lost his vision and thereby his use of Amaterasu won't be good.He was restoring his vision and by that he'll be able to use Amaterasu.He was restoring his power.Maintaining his power while Naruto grew exponentially in power by befriending Kyuubi.

The moment Sasuke awoke the Sharingan his attributes went up and he gained additional abilities. Every evolution afterwords gave him something extra. Naruto had no such thing. Once HE controlled/befriended the Kyuubi he himself got his attributes hightened. Do not forget that.

Again, please do not ignore that Sasuke or any Uchiha for that matter gains abilities once they achieve the Sharingan and evolve it further. You are trying so hard to make it out as if Naruto is the only one who has gained anything additional through his respective power.

And Naruto has always had a huge Chakra reserve, not because of the Kyuubi.

Are you somehow ignoring how early Sasuke gained his Sharingan? The MS? The CS? Dear me, you are taking bias to a completely new level.

So the EMS does not offer anything else right? Its just getting your eyesight back. Are you kidding me?

I thought we were talking about whatever Sasuke and Naruto gained after they met when Sasuke's vision detoriated.Naruto's Speed,Physical strength and the amount of chakra that he can make use of grew.Yeah,Naruto already had lots of chakra now he has tons of it.He got actual power.While Sasuke didn't get any of these by getting Itachi's eyes.He got nothing except vision and perhaps strengthned Susanoo (It's appearance changed slightly,so maybe it got strengthened) .He already was able to manipulate Amaterasu before he got EMS.He already had Susanoo.It's unclear if he can use Tsukuyomi before EMS and even now.

What else did Sasuke get from having Itachi's eyes? What actual power did he get? I don't know about Susanoo,Susanoo arrows,Genjutsu being quick,I was talking about Naruto's movement speed.Besides Genjutsu wouldn't work on him since he has a co-operative biiju inside him.Susanoo Amaterasu arrows might be dodgable considering Naruto's speed.Susanoo can be manifested quickly but it's not unbreakable.

So what if he HAD Cursed seal? He doesn't have it now.

Such an easy task eh? Is that why Naruto of all the Kyuubi Jins is the only one who was able to do so?

Since when has trying to understand someone's very obvious feelings and befriend them is considered tough?.Bee is an excellent jinchuuriki because he has a very strong relationship with Hachibi.Yugito is an excellent jinchuuriki too because she befriended Nibi.Three people,Naruto,Bee,Yugito who are the perfect jinchuuriki,befriended the Biiju within them.Befriended the Biiju.Is befriending someone a difficult task?

I doubt anyone claimed that Sasuke gained Itachis specific powers. I retract my comment if you can show me where I or anyone during this discussion has said so.

You say that there is no facts supporting Sasuke gaining anything from taking Itachis eyes (a manga scan says different) but you factually act as if Sasuke gained nothing when he himself said he was getting stronger.

What is/are the other actual powers that Sasuke gained by implanting Itachi's eyes? He didn't get any power and there's no great evidence of him gaining Itachi's power.His ocular powers didn't grew.Nothing grew.In the pannel where Sasuke says "Itachi's power" was flowing into him,What is that power supposed to be? What else did Sasuke gain? A manga scan? That pannel in which Sasuke says "Itachi's Power" is flowing into him,Whose words can be comprehended in a different way? A pannel and that's it? He got nothing,Except MAYBE his Susanoo getting strengthened by implanting Itachi's eyes.

So the EMS does not offer anything else right? Its just getting your eyesight back. Are you kidding me?

What else does it offer other than getting one's eyesight back and removing stress on the user? What actual power (New techniques? Hotter flames of Amaterasu? Tsukuyomi? Any heightened physical capabilities like Speed,Strength or Stamina (Increased chakra reserves) ? What does it give? (I not sure about Susanoo getting strengthened just based on the fact that there's a change in it's appearance).

Sasuke restored his power while Naruto gained more power.Lots of power.

I don't really want to discuss more about this,Some people already think that iam shitting on Naruto

 

[M3J]

Mito and Kushina are his relatives so they don't really count since they are, in this kind of discussion, exceptional as well as Naruto is. Tobi had Hashirama's help, Rinnegan and other shit so I don't count that as impressive. I don't think he specifically designed the seal so Naruto's chakra could mix with it. If he did, he would've had to design it for himself as well, but voila, he couldn't and he's using Kurama's chakra like his right arm. Since Naruto is so special because of his personality, the chances are they couldn't. Kakashi, Jiraiya and Minato aren't of Senju heritage (how Minato uses Kurama's chakra is beyond me and I expect an explanation soon). And there's befriending. While that isn't any sort of special ability, it is a trait that no one did or succeeded in, ever.

Arguably more exceptional as they never seemed to have an issue with the Kyuubi, apart from when they were giving birth. But it still stands that Naruto isn't the only one able to be the jinchuuriki of Kyuubi's and live to tell the tale. Part of that could be because of Minato's seal... I think that actually plays a major part, given what happened to Bee's predecessor's. But Gaara could prove otherwise.

Are we talking about the Kyuubi or Juubi? Either way though, if not for Hashirama's, I doubt Tobi would have been able to do anything. Fact still stands though, he was able to control both.

What do you mean design it for himself? While he may not have specifically designed the seal, he seems to have done something to allow both chakras to mix together. Unless I'm mistaken, this theory comes from the manga (not treating it as fact unless Minato states so). He did it, apparently, because he wanted Naruto to use the Kyuubi. We don't know how Minato sealed the Kyuubi in himself or anything of that.

But I think it makes some sense how Minato is able to use the Kyuubi's chakra, especially since he can't use the chakra like arms like Naruto can. The Kyuubi seems to be getting along with Minato. However, we haven't seen Minato use the Kyuubi like Naruto has... I think Minato's just wasting the chakra unnecessarily, but that's an opinion. I don't remember him doing anything that requires the Kyuubi's help like Naruto has, like saving Sasuke and himself by touching Minato or using the chakra arm to hit the Second Tsuchikage.

Even further proves that training is required to be able to control the arms, which Minato didn't do like Naruto. Though given Minato's intellect, he should be able to master the control even in middle of a fight... but given the manga's direction, he probably can't even do two rasengan.

No one, except Naruto, that is. They all had a shitty upbringing. Sasuke, Neji, for instance, two Geniuses who were praised all their life suffered almost as much as Naruto did but they ended up on the wrong path (until Naruto dealt with it or will deal with it). The fact is that no one accomplished such feats with Kurama, ever. Also, it is more of a question in can than want. No one tried this before probably because they never believed that they could actually get on good terms with Kurama and use his massive power. It's ridiculous to discuss this in such a way so I'm gonna go in absolute: no one did it before and therefore it's something that it's extraordinary, regardless of what someone else could or would have done.

Sasuke's upbringing wasn't that shitty though. Up until he was seven, he had family and although he lost his family due to a brother he trusted and looked up to, the village was still kind towards him. Neji's suffering IMO is Neji's own fault, which stopped once he forgave Hinata's father. Naruto's shitty upbringing was in no way his fault. The ability to befriend people came from him having bonds thanks to Iruka and Team 7. Naruto would have ended up on the wrong path, by his own admission, if not for people who accepted him. you could also argue Sasuke had the ability to befriend people, as nearly everyone was drawn towards him (whether because he looked good or seemed to be talented), unlike with Naruto. However, Sasuke chose to be distant.

We don't know if anyone else was able to accomplish friendship with Kyuubi, but I don't think anyone we saw try. Madara definitely didn't. Now, it'd be extraordinary because of decades or centuries of seeing human malice... but possibly in the first few decades of its life it wouldn't have been that special to befriend the Kyuubi.

No one ever said that Naruto is a Genius in the same way as the individuals you mentioned, not by a long shot. They all showed signs of Genius from early age and were praised for it. Irl, that gives any person a boost in self-confidence which then results boost in performance, let alone ego. Naruto was a sorry mo-fo in the early years, everyone hated his guts and he was miserable. How could a person in such a state discover his abilities when everyone denies his existence, let alone trivial things making a KB? That's the whole purpose of Naruto as a character. Once everyone started gradually acknowledging him, the signs of extraordinary and Genius feats started to show.

Hey, I've argued that if Naruto had a better childhood, he'd be much smarter because he wouldn't need to do things for attention or lack focus due to habit.

I don't think his feats showed when he was being acknowledged, but when he wanted to be acknowledged. No one thought Naruto would beat Kiba, but he managed to show that he can be smart and win. He had something to prove, and he's proven it. Let's not forget how Naruto looked at Lee's fist (observant) and deduced Lee would have won either way because he pushed himself so hard and trained hard to be good.

Just because I criticize Naruto doesn't mean I can't defend him. You'd be amazed at how I can defend him with the same things I criticize him for, and vice versa.

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

Given that Naruto couldn't even explain what he had done, I wouldn't say that. It all seems instinctual to him. It was the same with creating the FRS, he knew what to do without actually knowing what he was doing. Instead of intelligence, I would say Naruto had incredible wisdom.

I hardly think Naruto has incredible wisdom. Moreover, Naruto is a "natural" at certain things and is a borderline idiot savant. That may sound like hate, but Kishi has made it a point to make Naruto look great one second, and look like a fool the next.

To me, Naruto's natural ability doesn't come from his intelligence, but simply his biological and physiological ability to perform certain tasks and his ability to think, quite frankly, like an idiot. Naruto has a way of seeing the world that makes him blind to most things, but gives him great insight to others. There are certain people in the real world who can pick up a sport or skill with no knowledge of it what so ever and seemingly become great at it instantly. While this may seem similar to a genius as told to us by the manga, a genius relies on their intelligence to do things, Naruto relies on his body, hard work, and repetition. And it's no mistake that he indeed represents the "body" of the Sage.

Naruto has displayed this on multiple occasions, with Kage Bushin and Sage Mode, and later RK Mode and Biju Mode that he can pick up things incredibly fast, and yet has no idea how he's doing it. That basically proves that his body is moving faster than his mind can process what it's actually doing.

Other things, such as FRS and Rasengan took much harder work for him to accomplish, but even still, he is relying on his body and muscle memory to master a task, not his ability to learn from his mistakes.

Wisdom is defined as: the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise. That hardly describes Naruto. When a person is wise, they often have the answers to many of life's questions and are well versed in many things. Itachi is wise, Tobirama is wise, Kakashi is wise, Onoki is wise, Chiyo was wise. Overall, Naruto is not wise. However, he does possess great wisdom in the area of relationships, but that has nothing to do with his abilities.

 

[ninjabot]

Obviously. But it's his wisdom that's currently allowing him to outdo the more intelligent characters in solving the current problems, despite them being just as talented as him.

And I hate this. It'd be like someone asking Albert Einstein to tell them what they had for breakfast. Unless Einstein was there while he was doing it, he can't possibly know. That doesn't mean the guy with the mystery breakfast is smarter than Einstein because they stumped him with a question he can't answer. Just that he was around to gain that knowledge while Einstein wasn't.

 

[Rikudou King]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

I hardly think Naruto has incredible wisdom. Moreover, Naruto is a "natural" at certain things and is a borderline idiot savant. That may sound like hate, but Kishi has made it a point to make Naruto look great one second, and look like a fool the next.

To me, Naruto's natural ability doesn't come from his intelligence, but simply his biological and physiological ability to perform certain tasks and his ability to think, quite frankly, like an idiot. Naruto has a way of seeing the world that makes him blind to most things, but gives him great insight to others. There are certain people in the real world who can pick up a sport or skill with no knowledge of it what so ever and seemingly become great at it instantly. While this may seem similar to a genius as told to us by the manga, a genius relies on their intelligence to do things, Naruto relies on his body, hard work, and repetition. And it's no mistake that he indeed represents the "body" of the Sage.

Naruto has displayed this on multiple occasions, with Kage Bushin and Sage Mode, and later RK Mode and Biju Mode that he can pick up things incredibly fast, and yet has no idea how he's doing it. That basically proves that his body is moving faster than his mind can process what it's actually doing.

Other things, such as FRS and Rasengan took much harder work for him to accomplish, but even still, he is relying on his body and muscle memory to master a task, not his ability to learn from his mistakes.

Wisdom is defined as: the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise. That hardly describes Naruto. When a person is wise, they often have the answers to many of life's questions and are well versed in many things. Itachi is wise, Tobirama is wise, Kakashi is wise, Onoki is wise, Chiyo was wise. Overall, Naruto is not wise. However, he does possess great wisdom in the area of relationships, but that has nothing to do with his abilities.

I don't disagree. It's just, when I think of wisdom, it's in term of willpower and intuition (due to years playing D&D). So it was the closest term I could think of, though I guess him being a pseudo-idiot savant would be more appropriate.

And I hate this. It'd be like someone asking Albert Einstein to tell them what they had for breakfast. Unless Einstein was there while he was doing it, he can't possibly know. That doesn't mean the guy with the mystery breakfast is smarter than Einstein because they stumped him with a question he can't answer. Just that he was around to gain that knowledge while Einstein wasn't.

I would also think it's like asking someone to solve a math problem and not telling them the whole equation (such as noticing the signs done by Obito to become the Jinchuuriki and keeping that to himself til it was too late).

 

[M3J]

It's seriously getting pretty stupid accusing one of being a hater just because they speak against a character that you like or a fan/lover just because they defend a character you don't like. Just because someone says something bad about Naruto doesn't make him a hater, which would be contradictory if he's a fan of Naruto. Just because someone defends Sasuke or the Uchiha doesn't make him a fanboy of either. Hell, someone defending Sasuke or the Uchiha doesn't make him a Naruto hater, neither does saying something bad about Naruto make him a Sasuke/Uchiha lover.

Jeez, it's like you're either on one side or the other, and it's annoying. These labels are honestly pathetic and dumb to use in arguments/debates. Even if the person is obviously biased, avoiding accusation is much better.

 

[Roman]

It's seriously getting pretty stupid accusing one of being a hater just because they speak against a character that you like or a fan/lover just because they defend a character you don't like. Just because someone says something bad about Naruto doesn't make him a hater, which would be contradictory if he's a fan of Naruto. Just because someone defends Sasuke or the Uchiha doesn't make him a fanboy of either. Hell, someone defending Sasuke or the Uchiha doesn't make him a Naruto hater, neither does saying something bad about Naruto make him a Sasuke/Uchiha lover.

Jeez, it's like you're either on one side or the other, and it's annoying. These labels are honestly pathetic and dumb to use in arguments/debates. Even if the person is obviously biased, avoiding accusation is much better.

Well, I assume a hater when he constantly brings shit up about a character without any reason, just to troll, to say it like that. I understand someone talks bad about some character when their own favorite is being downplayed (Naruto vs Sasuke almost always) just to even the score in the debate. But yeah, otherwise, it's pointless.

 

[Schabrak]

There is no way to long to bring down Naruto's achievements and feats, just look at the Chakra Control thread, if the situation is't obvious there, you would have to be blind.

Naruto that goddamn loser can't even form onehanded Rasengans, and when he does, it's because of reason pulled out of thin air.

Jeez, it's like you're either on one side or the other, and it's annoying. These labels are honestly pathetic and dumb to use in arguments/debates. Even if the person is obviously biased, avoiding accusation is much better.

So we are supposed not to call out bullshit for being bullshit?

 

[ninjabot]

So we are supposed not to call out bullshit for being bullshit?

Not if you can't prove it. Even then, you can prove someone's biased without flatout calling them a fanboy or a hater, because when you do that it makes it look like you're incapable of proving your point, so you have to resort to name-calling.

 

[Schabrak]

I name things how they are, your attempt to downplay Naruto in that thread seems really desperate pulling everything you can to make him appear as someone not good at chakra control.

Spoiler

The recent one-handed Rasengan however can be explained by the simple fact that Kurama was busy building his chakra up, thus, Naruto's chakra control wasn't being hindered by Kurama's chakra mixing with his own (this is the reason Naruto had bad chakra control from the beginning of the manga, because of the seal mixing he and Kurama's chakra). Were he at full strength, he would've required a clone, or chakra mode, to perform the feat.

Ergo, Base Mode Naruto is still horrible at chakra control.

Really? Not, if you can't prove it.

 

[ninjabot]

I name things how they are,

See what I mean? You had the perfect chance to not make yourself look like you're incapable of debating by proving I'm biased with manga scans or logic, but instead you chose to just call me a fanboy. No one's ever gonna take you seriously as long as you keep going this route.

your attempt to downplay Naruto in that thread seems really desperate pulling everything you can to make him appear as someone not good at chakra control.

So I'm making up the instances in the manga where Naruto was said to have bad chakra control by Kakashi and Ebisu?

I'm making up the moments in the manga where he used a one-handed Rasengan with Kurama's aid, or a clone's aid, but never by himself? Those are being made up, right?

I wanna make absolutely sure this is what you're sticking with before I start dropping bombs. The last person that pulled this shit backpeddled the instant they realized what they said. I'm being nice enough to give you the opportunity to do the same.

Really? Not, if you can't prove it.

You're asking me to prove that Naruto has bad chakra control? I want to be 100% accurate on this. You're telling me that I CAN'T show you instances of Naruto being terrible at chakra control?