Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Fox666]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

There was 80,000 ninjas in the Shinobi Alliance, and since Kakashi stated his Chakra was three times greater with Kurama's "version 1" powers, doesn't that makes Kurama's Chakra 240,000 greater than Kakashi? Even if assume that half of the alliance was dizimated, it's still absurdly large. Not to mention that only a few Shinobi should have a Chakra of Kakashi's level.

On a side-note, Neji said 30% of Kisame's Chakra was on par with Naruto on the Chunnin exam. Since Naruto wasn't using "version 1" yet, that puts Kisame's Chakra at less than ten times Kakashi's Chakra.

 

[Rikudou King]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Amenotejikara
There you go. Explicitly stated.

... by a fan wiki, that still supports my side of the argument more then yours...

As for madaras limbo clone, I said from his explanation that they come from somewhere else he wouldn't say 'my clone from the invisible world'. When has natural energy being stated to come from somewhere else. Not that I think its definitely a s/t. I said its what I make of it since he mentioned another world. Also he was fully aware of naruto being able to use senjutsu which would allow him to sense natural energy. He also says no one from this world should be able to sense or see it. I'm sure you are aware of the fact that he knows there have been quite a number of senjutsu users. He would have said 'no one' but when he adds from this world, then its more than that. Here you go : http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/674/9 .
Also might I remind you that rinnegan doesn't see 'natural energy' when preta path held naruto down and yahiko watched as he absorbed narutos chakra, they were completely unaware/oblivious to him absorbing natural energy.

You realize that the name of the technique is called "limbo" right? Him mentioning it came from "limbo" does not mean it literally came from a place called limbo, especially when we ACTUALLY see the clones coming from him.

You seem to have missed the point about the natural energy, which is that despite the clones "being in another world (invisible and untouchable)", they were both interacting and being interacted with the physical world, just like natural energy, which while invisible and untouchable, can interact and be interacted with anyway.

Being able to use natural energy doesn't make one a sage (as the Cursed Seal users showed us) and there are different skill levels of being a sage (as Naruto, Jiraiya, and Minato showed us). There is no reason someone like Madara, who considered himself above everyone else, to believe that someone else could actually deal with his technique. We saw this when he fought the Gokages. Quite a number? Even within the series itself, there have only been canonically a small handful of actual senjutsu users since the Rikudou Sennin: Hashirama, Jiraiya, Minato, Juugo, and Naruto. Jiraiya was dead, Hashirama and Minato were taken out, Juugo was an unknown, and Naruto hadn't been on his level before that point. So who exactly are these other people who were on his level and could use senjutsu?

As for the amateratsu, I don't know why we are still on this, sasuke himself says its useless. Creating larger flames would make no difference as naruto just has to expand his chakra enough to prevent it from reaching him.

He say it was useless because he didn't have much chakra left, which has been the entire point. Expanding chakra has no point if there are enough flames to still cover it. I don't see what's so hard about this. I showed that Sasuke was capable of covering an entire Bijuu size target, so even if Naruto expanded the chakra to the complete size of the Kyuubi, he still would have been covered in flames. Not to mention that having to use chakra to protect one's self means less chakra to use for something else.

You are right when you say everything you claimed because these are speculation and its funny because you haven't provided any proof. I've been linking you to pages with direct proof yet you ignore them or simply don't open to check. Your posts are filled with what you 'think' is right. I'm providing proof from the manga and wikia. I don't know what else to do to as proof of these things.

Haven't provided proof? 1) I gave you the link to the page where Itachi states that EMS grants the user a whole new technique, after you claimed it didn't.
2) I gave links to examples of Sasuke being equal to Naruto in speed.
3) I showed that Chibaku Tensei was a part of the Deva Path, used through it.
4) I gave a link showing that the cloak doesn't protect against flames or heat.
5) I corrected your comment about Sasuke saying physical attacks wouldn't work by giving a link showing him stating they needed to use senjutsu to attack.
6) I also showed a link of Sasuke analyzing the limbo technique, showing that the clones came from Madara himself and had to return to him after a set amount of time.
7) I pointed out (while using your own "evidence") how a technique coming from Sasuke's left eye didn't mean it was a Rinnegan ability, and that a mention of his left eye after using an ability directly stated to come from his left eye more then likely applies to that technique then another...

For you to sit there and claim I haven't provided any proof is just ridiculous. Meanwhile, you have yet to provide any evidence of your claims about Madara having a S/T, the Rinnegan abilities not being the same for every user, that Amenotejikara was ever stated to be a Rinnegan technique as opposed to simply being used through the Rinnegan like with the other Sharingan techniques, or that Sasuke ever actually used it (especially given that one of the major points of it is that he can move others into his attack, as he did with Madara several times, meaning there is no need to worry about it being dodged).

 

[Holt]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

... by a fan wiki, that still supports my side of the argument more then yours...

You seem to have missed the point about the natural energy, which is that despite the clones "being in another world (invisible and untouchable)", they were both interacting and being interacted with the physical world, just like natural energy, which while invisible and untouchable, can interact and be interacted with anyway.


He say it was useless because he didn't have much chakra left, which has been the entire point. Expanding chakra has no point if there are enough flames to still cover it. I don't see what's so hard about this. I showed that Sasuke was capable of covering an entire Bijuu size target, so even if Naruto expanded the chakra to the complete size of the Kyuubi, he still would have been covered in flames. Not to mention that having to use chakra to protect one's self means less chakra to use for something else.

Haven't provided proof? 1) I gave you the link to the page where Itachi states that EMS grants the user a whole new technique, after you claimed it didn't.
2) I gave links to examples of Sasuke being equal to Naruto in speed.
3) I showed that Chibaku Tensei was a part of the Deva Path, used through it.
4) I gave a link showing that the cloak doesn't protect against flames or heat.
5) I corrected your comment about Sasuke saying physical attacks wouldn't work by giving a link showing him stating they needed to use senjutsu to attack.
6) I also showed a link of Sasuke analyzing the limbo technique, showing that the clones came from Madara himself and had to return to him after a set amount of time.
7) I pointed out (while using your own "evidence") how a technique coming from Sasuke's left eye didn't mean it was a Rinnegan ability, and that a mention of his left eye after using an ability directly stated to come from his left eye more then likely applies to that technique then another...

For you to sit there and claim I haven't provided any proof is just ridiculous.

Fan wiki or not, it took that info from the latest databook. What you think they came up with the name and explanation?

Also madara was using limbo before becoming the jin. Especially considering he cannot even utilise natural energy on his own. He had to take from hashirama. I did not say they were in another world. They were from another world.

How about you stop selecting favourable statements from other characters and stick to what the user of the jutsu is saying. Physical attacks didnt work, only senjutsu based attacks did. Madara says they are from another world. Do you perhaps think you or sasuke could understand his technique better than him? Madara says 'no one from this world' thats a general statement regardless of status of whoever can use natural energy,
Coming from madara doesnt change anything, when obito uses kamui, the targets come from him. Thtats simply because madara is the beacon connecting this world and that. I also mentioned to you that the rinnegan doesnt see natural energy which was proved during pain vs naruto. Sasuke being able to see the limbo clones simply means its not just natural energy. Also senjutsu users on the other hand can infact see natural energy, the frog could clearly see naruto absorbing the chakra when preta held him down. In this case naruto cant see the clones. Thats enough to disprove your claim. Also it wasnt about the name limbo, it was madara elaborating on his technique. Also rinnegan certainly doesnt give access to natural energy. Madara clearly needed his eyes for that technique. Coupled with the fact that after regaining his second eye, he could increase the number of limbo clones. Thats enough prove to tell you that those arent just created from natural energy.

Itachi said EMS grants a new technique? Thats fresh considering he never had it. Where did he get his info from? Only madara had EMS before sasuke. An example was when minato told obito that the FTG seal never disappears only for it to disappear mere moments after. Sasuke had his EMS since the war started. Madara stabbed sasuke, if he could use the s/t he would have. You think its coincedence he started using it right after getting the rinnegan? The chapter he starts using the tech is called sasuke's rinnegan. Also there wouldnt be a constant reference to his left eye if that was just something the EMS grants. We also know for a fact that the only techs that require cooldown are rinnegan techs (limbo, shinra). Sharingan techs never require cooldown.

Sasuke says amateratsu doesnt work as a technique, you decide to claim it was a matter of size.

Lets just stick to what those that are actually using the techs say ok?

---------- Post added at 09:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 PM ----------

lets not also forget that madara could swap places with the limbo clone even after they clearly hit the real one and were sealing his movements.

 

[Impossibility]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Sharingan techs never require cooldown.

Kotoamatsukami has a cooldown...just to point out. It's natural cooldown is ten-years, which seems like less of a cooldown and more of a prison sentence. Not that I disagree with your more general argument on this particular matter.

 

[Holt]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Kotoamatsukami has a cooldown...just to point out. It's natural cooldown is ten-years, which seems like less of a cooldown and more of a prison sentence. Not that I disagree with your more general argument on this particular matter.

Ah yes i forgot that. But like you rightly observed its less like a 'cooldown' per se. Especially battle wise.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Kotoamatsukami has a cooldown...just to point out. It's natural cooldown is ten-years, which seems like less of a cooldown and more of a prison sentence. Not that I disagree with your more general argument on this particular matter.

I thought the cool down was when someone else but Shisui had the eyes. Did Itachi state that Shisui himself had a decade of cool down period before he could use it again, or was that after Shisui gave him the eye?

Danzou was able to use the jutsu twice in less than a day or two... assuming he used it on the daimyo to become interim hokage.

 

[Impossibility]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

I thought the cool down was when someone else but Shisui had the eyes. Did Itachi state that Shisui himself had a decade of cool down period before he could use it again, or was that after Shisui gave him the eye?

Danzou was able to use the jutsu twice in less than a day or two... assuming he used it on the daimyo to become interim hokage.

That was the default cooldown for the technique. Danzo was able to use the technique once a day because of Hashirama's cells.

 

[KiSwordsman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

That was the default cooldown for the technique. Danzo was able to use the technique once a day because of Hashirama's cells.

I find that hard to believe because it implies that Shisui couldn't have used it no more than twice in his life. That's assuming that he got the the Mangekyo at a young age. However, I suppose that's why Kishimoto didn't give us Shisui's age with the data book.

 

[Impossibility]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

I find that hard to believe because it implies that Shisui couldn't have used it no more than twice in his life. That's assuming that he got the the Mangekyo at a young age. However, I suppose that's why Kishimoto didn't give us Shisui's age with the data book.

The odds are that that was probably it. He and Itachi were peers, so the overwhelming odds are that Shisui had his MS for less than ten years. And that obviously leads to some questions about the infamy of the technique, when it shouldn't have been used more than twice before Shisui's death. Although, if memory serves, there were only two occasions that we can specifically point to of his use of the technique...in the presence of Ao at some point and against Danzo. I think this is one of those things that's a bit suspicious, even if not blatantly inconsistent.

 

[KiSwordsman]

That's why I think that people could buy that arbitrary cooldown time a lot easier if it was a limit that only applied to those that we're not Shisui himself. It just seems extremely iffy otherwise, and at the same time makes the technique simultaneously the most useful and useless Mangekyo ability to be born with.

 

[Holt]

The 10 years probably applies to others aside shisui. Although if that also affected itachi that's quite something. For hashirama's cells to reduce a 10 year cooldown to a under a day is godlike even for him. And thats even with some cells. Which means hashirama himself could probably use it what...like 3 times in a day? Lol

Anyway its possible itachi got his info mixed up? Maybe shisui purposely inflated the supposed cooldown to discourage the usage at all.

Shisui himself probably just needed a few days to use it again. Maybe something along the lines of itachi's tsukuyomi and kakashi's kamui usage and effect in early naruto days. Its an extremely haxxed ability but 10 years is a bit much.

 

[KiSwordsman]

Well you know the only reason that Kishimoto introduced such a ridiculous limit was to make it "okay" for the technique to be so broken. It's like:

Audience: "why didn't he fix all the problems in all the world, so on and so forth?"

Kishimoto: "because it's a once in a decade technique. "

Audience: "well that explains it."

I'd argue that giving the technique such a limit just makes it obvious as to why you did it, instead of actually seeming like it fits.

 

[Delbi]

Thing is though when Danzou used it he was simply inserting suggestions into the mind of someone else. When it was used on Itachi a much more powerful form in the way of an "absolute order" was given. So powerful in fact that it could override ET.

So I don't think it's so much that Danzou was able to avoid the cooldown as it was that Danzou was using a different version, a weaker version of the power.

 

[KiSwordsman]

Thing is though when Danzou used it he was simply inserting suggestions into the mind of someone else. When it was used on Itachi a much more powerful form in the way of an "absolute order" was given. So powerful in fact that it could override ET.

So I don't think it's so much that Danzou was able to avoid the cooldown as it was that Danzou was using a different version, a weaker version of the power.

honestly, I don't think that argument works anymore. It worked in the past mainly because we barely knew anything about Kotoamatsukami. However now that the data book has come out regarding the technique, there has been no differentiation given for the eyes. Which was the main driving force in the first place that made that argument work. We know that Danzo had Hashirama cells in his arm (which is the very reason why Itachi bothered to to even mention Hashirama) and we know that he was using Kotoamatsukami. If the hints toward it and the very description of the technique was not enough. There is no weaker version of Kotoamatsukami given the fact that there was no differentiation given for each eye. That's just how it is.

 

[M3J]

That was the default cooldown for the technique. Danzo was able to use the technique once a day because of Hashirama's cells.

Where was that mentioned? As far as I recall, Itachi was talking about the eye after it was plucked from Shisui's eye socket.

 

[Delbi]

honestly, I don't think that argument works anymore. It worked in the past mainly because we barely knew anything about Kotoamatsukami. However now that the data book has come out regarding the technique, there has been no differentiation given for the eyes. Which was the main driving force in the first place that made that argument work. We know that Danzo had Hashirama cells in his arm (which is the very reason why Itachi bothered to to even mention Hashirama) and we know that he was using Kotoamatsukami. If the hints toward it and the very description of the technique was not enough. There is no weaker version of Kotoamatsukami given the fact that there was no differentiation given for each eye. That's just how it is.

The issue I have with this is I don't yet trust the translations from Databook as they seem to contradict some things that were just stated in the manga, such as Naruto having both the Yin and Yang powers when he should only have one.

Regardless of what the Databook says, what Danzou did and what happened to Itachi are two very different things. I'd like to see the link to the databook page that says that and I want to know who translated it. Because in the manga itself, we are told that Danzou was giving Mifune a suggestion, nudging him to vote his way.

Shisui's eye was programmed to give a direct order. Now, this could happen perhaps because Danzou is less skilled than Itachi with the eye, OR, that the eye has multiple functions/degrees at which is can work, similar to how Itachi and Sasuke's eyes work.

 

[Fox666]

It has never been said that the 10 years cooldown didn't apply to Shisui, so I don't see why so many are making that assumption.

And if only those who implated his eyes had to wait another decade to use it, wouldn't that be too arbitrary even for Kishimoto standards? Kakashi also has a Mangekyou Sharingan of someone else without that limitation.

Regardless of what the Databook says, what Danzou did and what happened to Itachi are two very different things. I'd like to see the link to the databook page that says that and I want to know who translated it. Because in the manga itself, we are told that Danzou was giving Mifune a suggestion, nudging him to vote his way.

It was the same thing. Itachi intended for it to change Sasuke's mind without he even knowing it.

 

[M3J]

Shisui's Mangekyo seems to be too overpowered that Kishi had to set that limit, or at least as an excuse to destroy the eye so it wouldn't be used again against Sasuke. Logic.

Shisui who could have used his eye to convince Danzou to leave his eye alone or he or Itachi use the genjutsu to stop the Uchiha from going through with the coup.

 

[Fox666]

Shisui plan was in fact to change Fugaku's mind with the Kotoamatsukami.

Ao recognized Danzou was using Shisui's dojutsu, meaning that Shisui used it before, and given his age (Itachi was 13 at the time) it couldn't be over a decade ago. So Shisui may have choose to not waste the only eye he had left to use Kotoamatsukami on Danzou.

 

[KiSwordsman]

The issue I have with this is I don't yet trust the translations from Databook as they seem to contradict some things that were just stated in the manga, such as Naruto having both the Yin and Yang powers when he should only have one.

Regardless of what the Databook says, what Danzou did and what happened to Itachi are two very different things. I'd like to see the link to the databook page that says that and I want to know who translated it. Because in the manga itself, we are told that Danzou was giving Mifune a suggestion, nudging him to vote his way.

Shisui's eye was programmed to give a direct order. Now, this could happen perhaps because Danzou is less skilled than Itachi with the eye, OR, that the eye has multiple functions/degrees at which is can work, similar to how Itachi and Sasuke's eyes work.

I was one of the first people to claim that it was odd that Naruto was able to create an eye for Kakashi given the fact that he had the Yang power. I even said that he might be using the yin power based on the ability to create things. However, it was stated by others, assumption by the way, that he was simply using Kakashi DNA to regenerate another eye for him. Turns out he was using creation of all things. So in reality everyone was both right and wrong regarding that.


Here's the thing about that, you say that as if what Danzo showed was the full extent of what he could do with the eye. Which it was not as far as we know. The same thing with Itachi. That's where the entire basis of them being able to do two different things with the eye even comes from. That's the key here. Danzo was using the technique before we even knew its name, so of course what he's going to show with it and the full extent of what it's capable of is going to be different and kept secret until the time the author chooses to reveal that information. Even then, there was the fact that Danzo was fully confident that he could control Sasuke to fight Obito but held back because of Sasuke's own condition. The Databook basically tells us what they can do with it. Even if one wants to call BS on the translation.

But here

Anyway, the thing about it is that I'd rather rely on the translation than something people came up with based on lack of information. Now we have that information. So this whole "weaker version of Kotoamatsukami" can be put to rest.