Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[KiSwordsman]

Except that when we flash forward 20 or so years Gai is still a cripple. I highly doubt Naruto couldn't develop his powers to the point where he could heal Gai in the future. My issue wasn't that he didn't heal Gai on the spot, because like you said he was still inexperienced.

But to say Naruto has the power of the Sage with Creation of All things means he'd be on his level at some point. The fact that Sasuke was able to achieve near his level according the Kyuubi just by gaining more chakra seems to me that Naruto would suprass that level 15-20 years in the future. And if he did, then Naruto could literally create anything.

If in fact Naruto does have the power it is a dumbed down version, which is basically just a Yang technique to heal things at an advanced level similar to what Tsuande can do. That's my issue here, is we are christening Naruto with the greatest power in the manga because he created an eye ball and because a databook says he has it. The fact that the databook doesn't go into any detail is why I am skeptical and think it's a translation error or simply a misinterpretation of what was said.

Think about it, how did Naruto get the Yin power? He wasn't given that by the Sage, and it's not like the Biju grant that. Without the Yin power he can't use The Creation of All things. It simply doesn't make sense. A simple line in a databook isn't changing what actually happened.

And like I've already stated which is why I made the point that I did with Bee and Karin, this was most likely done for the plot sake. There would be no meaning to those events if Naruto just undid them. Kishimoto was already pushing it as far as emotion goes given the abilities that we knew both Naruto and Sasuke have. That's why I didn't care when they lost an arm each. Naruto can make multiple and Sasuke has the Rinnegan. So eventually he can too.


How do we know what actually happened? Because of conclusions that we came to ourselves? Like I said if a translation fixes what was said and it turns out that Naruto does not have a creation of all things, I have no issue. However, this is what we have. The consensus is that they got half of the power based on the seals on their hands. however, what if that's all they were, seals for CT? What if the Sage gave both Naruto and Sasuke the ability to use Yin-Yang release? Don't forget that Sasuke showed nothing in the way of what he could do on his own regarding his seal. He didn't really show anything in the way of creating anything with the yin power, while Naruto did. Unless you want to count maximum over Susanoo. Which I don't, because really it was using Susanoo as a container for the demons chakra.

I agree that the Gai situation was BS, but Naruto healed him to show off his new Yang power, because if he hadn't there wasn't much evidence that Naruto gained anything other than the Truth Seeking Balls, whereas Sasuke was getting all kinds of shit.

I never disputed that. I'm simply saying that there would have been no consequence and the emotion brought on by guys flashback chapters would have meant nothing at all. At that very moment or 20 years in the future. You and I both know that things have been done or not done specifically for the plot. This is no different. Just like with Naruto's arm. As flimsy as that whole situation was given the fact that them losing an arm didn't mean anything at that point. One selling point to Sasuke's redemption was the fact that Naruto lost an arm for him. This ignores the fact that Naruto has the nine tailed Fox and can make multiple arms or that Sasuke has the Rinnegan and has access to Asura path. Or Susanoo, or techniques that make having to arms unnecessary.

I'm denying that Naruto doesn't have it based on the fact he hasn't shown anything that shows that he does. The databook says something and the only manga evidence that backs it up is the creation of an eye.

As for why Bee doesn't call him by his name, it could be a personal choice, who knows. Bee isn't exactly a formal person.

What do you mean he hasn't shown anything that shows he does. The eye was the example used to confirm that he does. That's what shows he does. You're taking what the Sage did and basically saying that whatever Naruto does has to be near that level which is not true.

And that's pure conjecture. It's still an example of a character not doing something specifically for plot purposes. If guy is the main thing that we come back to… You see what I'm saying. Naruto not healing guy doesn't disprove anything.

Karin was an emotional wreck when this happened. She lives for Sasuke. The reason she didn't do anything was because she was so shocked at what Sasuke had become. Her own life meant less to her at that moment than what she perceived Sasuke to be, the man she idolized and loved. So to me this is an awful example.

Once again, conjecture. That's something that you're using to justify why she didn't do it but the point still remains that she didn't do something that she was clearly capable of doing for the plot purposes. It's not like it mattered at all anyway. Mainly because she made a decision regarding Sasuke then did a complete 360.

There's no evidence that giving suggestions was his limit and that isn't my point. My point is he first used it to give a suggestion and then later wanted to use it to control Sasuke, thereby showing us two different ways the technique could be used.

As far as me making assumptions, they are pretty well grounded. I'm not making shit up, I'm just using facts. EVERY MS power has different degrees at which it can be used. Why would this one power be any different?
----
The eye Danzou possessed had the same powers as the one Itachi used and we saw it's limit when it dominated ET and Itachi, the manga's best genjutsu user.

Spoiler

Actually Danzou doesn't have Kotoamatsukami because he doesn't have Shusui's eye that Itachi had.

MS powers are used with certain eyes as Itachi and Sasuke have shown us. Certain eyes for certain powers, both to use Sussano.

So no, there is no way in hell Danzou had Kotoamatsukami because he lacked the eye that even had it in the first place.

He seemed to have another jutsu of similar nature, but not nearly as powerful. His jutsu merely suggested things to the person and swayed them. The version Itachi used trumped Kabuto's enhanced ET control, and also worked on the single most powerful genjutsu user in the world. If Danzou could have used Kotoamatsukami like Itachi did on himself, he would have long ago ruled the world.

But at the end of the day, his jutsu could merely suggest things to people, and hence had to be used carefully.

you can see my issue here. If that's what you believe then we're basically saying the same thing. I was under the impression that you were trying to bring up this old argument. That was my fault. However, the fact still remains that Hashirama's DNA is the reason the cooldown time is reduced. This is what we know.

I don't think Kakashi ever exceeded Obito's ability with Kamui. And when and if you think he did, he did so when he had both eyes. We were told specifically that the eyes work better when they are together, and Obito never got a chance to use both when he was healthy.

That is why I said match, not exceed. There's no indication that Danzo exceeded Itachi or Shisui in the usage of the technique. I'm not exactly where you got that from. I'm saying that Danzo can match both Itachi and Shisui in the usage of Shisui's eye because we've seen it done before. And you can be damn sure that I'd never think Kakashi exceeded Obito in the usage of Kamui when Obito is the reason he even activates Susanoo in the first place. Plus Obito soul inside of him was the reason he didn't freaking keel over and die from using the mangekyo to that extent.

It does conflict because IMO, it's giving Naruto an ability he never displayed. Again, at best, Naruto has a very water downed version of Creation of All Things, but there is 1) No explanation how he got the Yin power necessary to use it and 2) The creation of an eye, is nothing like what the Sage did.

You could argue that there are different levels of the technique, fine, sure. But to think Naruto never got better with the technique over 20 years of having it is asinine to me. He never fully healed Gai, nor did he ever re-create his arm.

And you assume that the Yang power is all he got because that's the seal that he had. But if the Databook is giving him creation of all things that means that seal on his hand was just that a seal representing the Seal for CT for Kaguya.

As Holt pointed out, you can't really create something that's already there. Kakashi's eye wasn't there. Guy's body and his prosthetic were there.

And as I pointed out, these things were probably not done specifically for the plot's sake because it would take away any meaning from the events themselves. You know this as well as I, it's happened so many times before it's ridiculous.

 

[M3J]

Out of curiosity, who do you guys think would have won in a fight?

The 10 year old Itachi who had already passed the Chuunin exams and was probably stronger than most Jonin ninjas.

Or

The 10 year old Nagato who was able to master all six chakra types and all the jutsu Jaraiya taught him.

Itachi. He's a better ninja, smarter, and actually knows how to utilize whatever he has. He took out Kakashi pretty quickly while Pain failed to do so.

 

[Delbi]

A bit inaccurate, itachi passed chunnin exams at age 10. Nagato also got training from jiraiya. That wasn't only limited to ninjustsu as he made then competent enough to survive on their own in such a war-ridden and savage land. Itachis skill at that time, wouldn't have made up for the advantage nagato had over him thanks to the rinnegan. A few years down the road however (teen years), itachi's skill should have grown enough to compensate for that.

Yeah a fight between both of them uninhibited and in perfect condition would epic.

Even still I'd argue that Itachi would wipe the floor with him. Jiraiya training him has nothing to do with it because on their face Itachi is naturally more talented than Nagato. Nagato's only advantage was that he could use more elemental jutsu and likely had more chakra. Itachi in the meantime was said to have the wisdom of a Kage at the age of 5, and was prodigal genius, Nagato was not.

Nagato flinging around ninjutsu won't negate the fact that Itachi could put him in a genjutsu and shushin behind him and slit his throat.

Fact of the matter is we don't know how powerful both were at 10 years old. When did Jiraiya leave Nagato? Because he seemed to be older than 10. Which would mean Nagato hadn't learned everything from Jiraiya when he was 10 whereas Itachi was already 3 years out of the Academy.

 

[M3J]

Nagato's only saving grace was that he had a pair of Rinnegan, otherwise he'd be a complete failure. Itachi graduated early, was entrusted with the most important mission, and became part of Akatsuki who managed to beat Deidara without even lifting a finger. He also subdued Orochimaru and could have easily killed him if he wanted. He also became ANBU at the age of 12, around the same age Kakashi became a jounin.

And given how long it took for his eyesight to get pretty bad, Itachi also rarely relied on Mangekyo whereas Nagato was constantly saved by his Rinnegan, oftentimes unknown to him in one way or another.

 

[Freid]

I'm curious. Back in the Chuunin exams, all the best ninjas used their unique abilities to cheat and avoid getting caught. Naruto was just too dumb to realize the purpose of the test.

So if he had realized, how do you guys think Naruto could have cheated without getting caught?

 

[Asclepius]

One-shot After the last
Posting this here for now.

Spoiler

Raw from Tieba.baidu
Translation: akiba-wota@tumblr
Typeset and Cleaning: narutoffee@tumblr

 

[Freid]

One-shot After the last
Posting this here for now.

Spoiler

Raw from Tieba.baidu
Translation: akiba-wota@tumblr
Typeset and Cleaning: narutoffee@tumblr

Too bad real women ain't like Hinata.

 

[KiSwordsman]

I'm curious. Back in the Chuunin exams, all the best ninjas used their unique abilities to cheat and avoid getting caught. Naruto was just too dumb to realize the purpose of the test.

So if he had realized, how do you guys think Naruto could have cheated without getting caught?

If the info gathering of kage bunshin had been a thing at the time, he would have used one, lost a point but got the answers. Remember one could have been caught just not to many times.

 

[Rikudobito]

Out of curiosity, who do you guys think would have won in a fight?

The 10 year old Itachi who had already passed the Chuunin exams and was probably stronger than most Jonin ninjas.

Or

The 10 year old Nagato who was able to master all six chakra types and all the jutsu Jaraiya taught him.

Itachi. The guy rendered the shared vision of Nagato's summonings futile with mere Shurikenjutsu. That's how skilled he is and I don't think Nagato is even on that level. I just don't know how elemental attacks and Jiraiya's jutsu are going to be a problem to Itachi tbh.

Although, adult Nagato post-Hanzo fight is a completely different story.

 

[M3J]

I'm curious. Back in the Chuunin exams, all the best ninjas used their unique abilities to cheat and avoid getting caught. Naruto was just too dumb to realize the purpose of the test.

So if he had realized, how do you guys think Naruto could have cheated without getting caught?

He would either copy from Hinata or fail.

 

[HereNThere]

I'm curious. Back in the Chuunin exams, all the best ninjas used their unique abilities to cheat and avoid getting caught. Naruto was just too dumb to realize the purpose of the test.

So if he had realized, how do you guys think Naruto could have cheated without getting caught?

Using what he had at the time? Shadow clone plus transformation into a teacher or something to get the answers would be his best bet. Either that, or he'd steal someone else's paper after making a ruckas.

 

[Rikudobito]

So Itachi wins when they're adults? Even against Nagato with his legs?

Concerning this one, I think that Itachi can defeat the Six Paths of Pain. I think one of the most dangerous paths of pain is the Naraka path. If you don't know of its ability, it'll keep on reviving the other destroyed paths so it's better to destroy it first.

However, I suppose Nagato would outclass him if he had mobility. Even back when Nagato was fighting Bee & Naruto, if my memory serves me right, he did got his mobility back but he was still lacking muscle memory. With his muscle memory back ( as well as his mobility in the process ), Itachi would lose. Not easily but he will be able to put up a fight. Itachi's only disadvantage in this battle is that he's against a shinobi whose eye powers are largely superior and on top of that, a major chunk of Itachi's repertoire, i.e: Genjutsu, is useless against Nagato. ( Although, this is not the case for Izanami )

In terms of Shinobi skills, Nagato pales into comparison.

Susano'o would fall easy prey to the Hungry ghost realm/Preta Path and Amaterasu is easily countered by Shinra Tensei or Preta Path.

 

[marshall313]

Out of curiosity, who do you guys think would have won in a fight?

The 10 year old Itachi who had already passed the Chuunin exams and was probably stronger than most Jonin ninjas.

Or

The 10 year old Nagato who was able to master all six chakra types and all the jutsu Jaraiya taught him.

10 years old nagato killed at least 3 chuunin/jounin without doing anything. He just killed them just by showing his deym rinnegan. What makes you think itachi will not follow the same fate as them? Come on, itachi's arsenal would be all useless to nagato's rinnegan.

---------- Post added at 06:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:19 AM ----------

One-shot After the last
Posting this here for now.

Spoiler

Raw from Tieba.baidu
Translation: akiba-wota@tumblr
Typeset and Cleaning: narutoffee@tumblr

Wow, shouldn't naruto is a freaking millionaire right now? Am pretty sure all of jiraiya's wealth was being left to naruto. Not unless tsunade got them all. Hahahaha.

 

[HereNThere]

Here's another interview.

http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3466021866

1.When Kishimoto first created Naruto he was inspired by a roadside ramen stall, he wanted to write about a youth eating ramen. his theme is considered questionable, bujt in the end it still became serialized while under doubts.

2.The fourth's appearance was inspired by carelessly jumbling up kiba and akamaru's combination. and so naruto father's image was set.


3.Before the chunnin exams, Kishimoto originally wanted to draw a few more missions, but to ask him to illustrate the whole ninjaverse at one go, kishi says it is very stressful to have to do so many characters, so he asked his assistant for help, and the assistant created Lee using reference from Jackie Chan.

4.In Akatsuki Kishimoto's fav is Hidan. Kishi was told that the image of Shikamaru smoking can't possible be animated on TV, but Kishi did it anyway. He tried to make Hidan look not as intidimating


5.Kishi feel that Jiraiya's death was spectacular, therefore if he was edo tensei, it would be hard to draw naruto's reaction. that's why jiraiya did not re-appear.

6.Kishi is troubled by Sakura's popularity among the readers. While he was drawing covers, it was easy drawing naruto and sasuke, but for sakura kishi have to spend more time re-drawing and adjusting, worrying that he might draw her ugly. sakura's family is not revealed because of popularity reasons, but hinata with low number of appearances were consistently popular with the readers, kishi once had the idea to change hinata to the heroine.Kishi referenced celebrities before making Sakura, 2ch said something like Christina Ricci.


7.he let neji die for naruto and hinata to be closer, that's how hinata brought her daughter to visit his grave in chapter 700. naruto's son boruto and neji is the same meaning, this is all intended early on.Kishi said" I needed a factor for Hinata to become more like Naruto's heroine so I kind of made him die as a Cupid...." and the interviewer says it sounds silly to air this

8. before naruto KO enemies kishi would use several different angle shots to show the same move, this is inspired by jackie chan's martial arts film. also when doing KO scenes kishi don't like to draw the character faces, he feel that revealing faces will dimish the impact of the body moving and the artwork.


9.At the end when Naruto and Sasuke fight, the original intention is that they finish while holding hands, but kishi changed his mind and cut their hands, making a more gory ending.

10.When NARUTO ends, Kishi introduces next year's movie and naruto exibition 2015, revealing that orochimaru, kabuto, and lesser characters will be re-appearing in the boruto series, to finish the main plot. then kishi says he will be relaxing for the time bring, call an assistant to discuss about the new series. it is unclear whether the new series will still be centered around ninjas or around a totally new theme.

Found the translation on Neogaf, but the translation itself was done by the folk on 2ch and Naruto forums.

That comment on the reason for Neji's death is depressing as hell.

 

[Impossibility]

Here's another interview.

http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3466021866



Found the translation on Neogaf, but the translation itself was done by the folk on 2ch and Naruto forums.

That comment on the reason for Neji's death is depressing as hell.

Honestly, every time I read another one of these things...I cringe.

 

[KiSwordsman]

7.he let neji die for naruto and hinata to be closer, that's how hinata brought her daughter to visit his grave in chapter 700. naruto's son boruto and neji is the same meaning, this is all intended early on.Kishi said" I needed a factor for Hinata to become more like Naruto's heroine so I kind of made him die as a Cupid...." and the interviewer says it

Excuse my language, but I knew it. I fucking knew that was the reason that Neji died. It's not like a lot of people didn't know that, but there have been some people arguing against that bullshit. It's honestly pretty sad but I guess that's the way the cookie crumbled in the end.

 

[Impossibility]

Excuse my language, but I knew it. I fucking knew that was the reason that Neji died. It's not like a lot of people didn't know that, but there have been some people arguing against that bullshit. It's honestly pretty sad but I guess that's the way the cookie crumbled in the end.

Honestly, Neji was a problematic character on quite a few levels, in terms of plot progression and the conclusion. His death itself wasn't what so irksome, it was how it was handled so unceremoniously. Neji was such an important and popular character, it was grating to see how he was disposed of and the manga moved on without seemingly noticing.

 

[Sharikaaria]

Plot no jutsu strikes once again. It shouldn't surprise us at this point, but each time it comes back, it's worse than it was before.. >.> This is essentially Kishi putting another carefully crafted character on the chopping block to initiate some other plot development, which could have done in so many other (better) ways.

5.Kishi feel that Jiraiya's death was spectacular, therefore if he was edo tensei, it would be hard to draw naruto's reaction. that's why jiraiya did not re-appear.

6.Kishi is troubled by Sakura's popularity among the readers. While he was drawing covers, it was easy drawing naruto and sasuke, but for sakura kishi have to spend more time re-drawing and adjusting, worrying that he might draw her ugly. sakura's family is not revealed because of popularity reasons, but hinata with low number of appearances were consistently popular with the readers, kishi once had the idea to change hinata to the heroine.Kishi referenced celebrities before making Sakura, 2ch said something like Christina Ricci.

#5: It was good Jiraiya never appeared again. I think the weight of his death would have weakened otherwise. Although Kishi's reasoning for this was not good..

#6: Somebody explain to me how this does NOT imply the pairings were driven by popularity? I'd like to see someone try.

 

[KiSwordsman]

#6: Somebody explain to me how this does NOT imply the pairings were driven by popularity? I'd like to see someone try.

like I said way back when, if that was the case Kishimoto should have done it. It was said that he said that Hinata was a better character than Sakura in certain aspects. Her background was more dramatic, she had more to her in terms of depth through family issues, all these things pointed to him believing that she was a better heroine than Sakura was. Given the way he portrayed Sakura, yeah she would've been a better heroine. It's this type of crap that infuriates me because had he made that decision a lot of people would've been able to swallow this crap a lot easier. Especially if he wants to sit there and say that he had the endgame decided early on. How is anyone supposed to believe that the case when Hinata's presence in the manga comes nowhere close to Sakura's. Her impact while meaningful in part one was lessened by a great degree in part two and seemed rushed at the ending. I could go on so many rants about this but it's just…

 

[Sharikaaria]

Yeah, the problem a lot of people are having is how Kishi made all the "right" decisions through the wrong plot devices (or no development at all). I'm not sure if that's what you're trying to say, but that's what I'm interpreting.

Truthfully, Hinata is easier to write as a heroine. She has obvious sadness in her past, complicated family life, etc. as you mentioned. On the other side of the coin, Sakura was not the easiest to work with, given that she had no noteworthy roots or inherited abilities. But I dunno... part of me feels Sakura could have panned out as the heroine exactly because she had no way to distinguish herself at the start. It was refreshing. Instead of having a fancy pair of eyes or kekkei genkai or a bijuu, she worked her way up through sheer determination and skill. I found her ability to independently steel herself to keep up with the superpowered guys impressive. She rarely needed someone to egg her on and tell her "You can do it." She was gaining awesomeness in Part 2, but then her Sasuke obsession ruined her in the readers' eyes.

It's the same frustration as characters like Rock Lee losing the spotlight as well. What happened to the emphasis on hard work?