Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Mangang]

So there's basically four different points of view.

1: Those that hate Sasuke or any Uchiha characters believe the curse is fake because they don't like the idea of Sasuke, Madara, or Obito not being held responsible for their actions.

2: Those that like Sasuke and aren't too biased to see reason believe the curse is real because there have been canon implications of it's existence (that's me).

3: Those that like Sasuke too much believe the curse is fake because they can't STAND the idea of Sasuke not having complete control over himself, or being a victim of any design other than his own (i.e, curse of hatred, exploitation by Itachi and then Obito).

4: Those that dislike Sasuke also believe the curse is real because they're in love with the concept of Sasuke forever being a bat-shit insane pawn, always manipulated and guided due to his inability to control his emotions, and now they have canon proof that he and his ilk are predisposed to fuck-nuttery.

Am I missing any? I didn't bother listing the "People that don't believe the curse exists because they have canon proof that it doesn't", because such a person doesn't exist.

Dude I don't think it has to do with liking and disliking Sasuke. Its more about what has happen in the manga disagree with Tobirama's statement.
Sasuke has control over his self, he don't just out of hatred otherwise he won't even bother about meeting the previous Kages. He even analyzes and has come to conclusion that even Itachi can't kill all Konoha police force alone.
Yeah he was manipulated but that doesn't work on him in long run. He has Great sense of self righteousness.

About him going to wrong side, I won't called that wrong though, anybody with similar experience will go insane unlike Sasuke who can actually overcome it and recognizes his comrades.
Its just there are many plot and people that influence Sasuke on wrong way continuously. Anyone would have done the same under similar circumstances. So there is nothing about curse. Its just the circumstances and influence that make them evil.

 

[Delbi]

So there's basically four different points of view.

1: Those that hate Sasuke or any Uchiha characters believe the curse is fake because they don't like the idea of Sasuke, Madara, or Obito not being held responsible for their actions.

2: Those that like Sasuke and aren't too biased to see reason believe the curse is real because there have been canon implications of it's existence (that's me).

3: Those that like Sasuke too much believe the curse is fake because they can't STAND the idea of Sasuke not having complete control over himself, or being a victim of any design other than his own (i.e, curse of hatred, exploitation by Itachi and then Obito).

4: Those that dislike Sasuke also believe the curse is real because they're in love with the concept of Sasuke forever being a bat-shit insane pawn, always manipulated and guided due to his inability to control his emotions, and now they have canon proof that he and his ilk are predisposed to fuck-nuttery.

Am I missing any? I didn't bother listing the "People that don't believe the curse exists because they have canon proof that it doesn't", because such a person doesn't exist.

I like Sasuke a lot. But also like actual evidence when we want to prove something. There is more evidence proving the Uchiha lack a curse than there is evidence proving they do. Tobirama's "experiments" are hardly evidence at all. His hypothesis was proven wrong on so many different occasions it's not even funny. The only thing he got right was that heavy emotions allow of a Sharigan to awaken and evolve. As we saw with Sarada recently, moments of pure happiness can awaken the Sharigan, not just moments of anger and sorrow.

So frankly, Tobirama's hypothesis about the Uchiha clan being cursed is crock of shit. He's biased, he lacked any sort of procedure to test the theory on more than the corpse of Madara, and he was unaware of hidden variables (see Black Zetsu) that would have influenced an unbiased observer's opinion of the situation.

 

[ninjabot]

I did.

Say you did, did you? Far be it from me to call you a bold faced liar, buuuuut:

You're under the impression that anyone going against your views or interpretations 'hate' sasuke.

The only way you could've come to that conclusion is if you only read 3 of the paragraphs while SOMEHOW skipping over the third one to get to the fourth:

3: Those that like Sasuke too much believe the curse is fake because they can't STAND the idea of Sasuke not having complete control over himself, or being a victim of any design other than his own (i.e, curse of hatred, exploitation by Itachi and then Obito).

For the record, this is why I respond to you the way that I do. Because you keep doing shit like this. I even gave you a second opportunity to go back and proof-read to see JUST where you fucked up, and you did it again. It's not even like it was a god damned wall of text.

I like Sasuke a lot. But also like actual evidence when we want to prove something. There is more evidence proving the Uchiha lack a curse than there is evidence proving they do.

Oh! Such a thing exists then. You won't mind posting the scans, right? Because so far all you're saying is Tobirama's tests and opinion doesn't matter because fucking 3 Uchiha out of several generations managed to not go crazy? Because Tobirama doesn't state that it only happened " a couple times". He said it happens a lot.

 

[Delbi]

Oh! Such a thing exists then. You won't mind posting the scans, right? Because so far all you're saying is Tobirama's tests and opinion doesn't matter because fucking 3 Uchiha out of several generations managed to not go crazy? Because Tobirama doesn't state that it only happened " a couple times". He said it happens a lot.

He said it happens a lot yet there is no evidence of it ever happening outside of Madara to his knowledge. In fact, we only have evidence of three Uchiha's going "crazy" ever and all three of them were heavily manipulated.

I guess you forgot when the ENTIRE CLAN, sans Madara wanted peace and not war. These were the Uchiha members who had been fighting all the time, who had lost countless loved ones and yet none of them were crazy. They all wanted peace. So Tobirama's hypothesis doesn't work on any of them now does it?

You keep asking for scans like what I am saying is a fucking lie. You know the manga as well as I do and know for a fact we only have evidence of three people going crazy and that all three of them were manipulated. We also know that Tobirama was a bigoted biased asshole who hated the Uchiha clan. Yet you want to take his every word for fact despite the manga contradicting what he claims? Ok then, go for it you obviously aren't fooling anyone lol.

 

[Holt]

Say you did, did you? Far be it from me to call you a bold faced liar, buuuuut:

The only way you could've come to that conclusion is if you only read 3 of the paragraphs while SOMEHOW skipping over the third one to get to the fourth:

For the record, this is why I respond to you the way that I do. Because you keep doing shit like this. I even gave you a second opportunity to go back and proof-read to see JUST where you fucked up, and you did it again. It's not even like it was a god damned wall of text.
\.

Nope I did, twice. The mentioned paragraph is your weak attempt at trying to lay some on those that like Sasuke so you don't seem entirely biased. Why do I say so, because I'm yet to see anyone who fits your 3rd description (ignoring the liking part of course). Every other person who argued about the existence/significance of the curse did so on the basis of manipulation by others and the trauma he faced. You say those there can't stand the idea of Sasuke being exploited by others while I'm quite certain pretty much everyone mentions that fact, hence why I ignored it.

Why you answer me the way you do? Well I didn't realize there was a way you answered me lol. Was I supposed to be looking in deeper to your posts for some personal attacks or some other thing? My bad.

 

[ninjabot]

He said it happens a lot yet there is no evidence of it ever happening outside of Madara to his knowledge. In fact, we only have evidence of three Uchiha's going "crazy" ever and all three of them were heavily manipulated.

He said it does, YOU say it doesn't. Who deserves my faith more? The guy who was there throughout battle after battle with Uchiha? The guy that did experiments on the Uchiha?

I guess you forgot when the ENTIRE CLAN, sans Madara wanted peace and not war.

Madara wanted peace too. His motivations had nothing to do with him going insane. Madara gave up his pursuit of vengeance thanks to Hashirama attempting to commit suicide for him. He regained it later when Konoha started being anti-Uchiha and Tobirama started telling everyone their secrets. Everything Madara has done has been in the pursuit of peace. Mugen Tsukuyomi as opposed to just killing everyone?

These were the Uchiha members who had been fighting all the time, who had lost countless loved ones and yet none of them were crazy. They all wanted peace. So Tobirama's hypothesis doesn't work on any of them now does it?

It absolutely does for several reasons:

1: You don't know how many of them had Sharingan or MS. MS was supposed to be rare in the first place. And Sharingan isn't guaranteed among Uchiha.
2: Tobirama And Obito both flat out told us that some of the Uchiha still supported Madara.
3: As Tobirama and I've said ad nauseum, not all Uchiha fall to the curse

You keep asking for scans like what I am saying is a fucking lie. You know the manga as well as I do and know for a fact we only have evidence of three people going crazy and that all three of them were manipulated. We also know that Tobirama was a bigoted biased asshole who hated the Uchiha clan. Yet you want to take his every word for fact despite the manga contradicting what he claims? Ok then, go for it you obviously aren't fooling anyone lol.

Lie isn't the word I'd use. I'd comfortably claim it's based on absolutely nothing though. It's just, you have to understand what it looks like when you argue against what's been shown in the manga, and the best argument you've got is "Nah, that's not true cause the manga contradicts it", and then the proof you mention is fucking non-existent.

And you can't say Tobirama only has proof of 3 Uchiha going crazy, because he said "I've seen it happen many times." HIS TESTIMONY IS MY PROOF. You don't have anything that can be likened to this. Word of mouth from the most knowlegable person on Uchiha relations outside of the actual Uchiha clan. The fact that I'd take his word over yours should be of no surprise. You've shown me no manga contradictions to what he claims. None. Not any. You haven't shown a lot of Uchiha who weren't affected by the curse. You haven't proven that Tobirama's experiments didn't prove what he claims they did. You didn't prove that his bias makes his claims inaccurate either.

Believe what you want, but know that you're wrong. Canonically.

 

[Delbi]

He said it does, YOU say it doesn't. Who deserves my faith more? The guy who was there throughout battle after battle with Uchiha? The guy that did experiments on the Uchiha?

I do, because I'm the omnipotent reader who knows more about the Uchiha clan than Tobirama does lol. I'm also not nearly as biased as he is. While he was dead, I was able to see the course of Uchiha and Ninja history. He wasn't.

Madara wanted peace too. His motivations had nothing to do with him going insane. Madara gave up his pursuit of vengeance thanks to Hashirama attempting to commit suicide for him. He regained it later when Konoha started being anti-Uchiha and Tobirama started telling everyone their secrets. Everything Madara has done has been in the pursuit of peace. Mugen Tsukuyomi as opposed to just killing everyone?

No, Black Zetsu motivating him to go to war and gain the power of the Six Paths is what lead for him to go insane, combined with the lose of his brother, his clanmates, and then his clans betrayal.

It absolutely does for several reasons:

1: You don't know how many of them had Sharingan or MS. MS was supposed to be rare in the first place. And Sharingan isn't guaranteed among Uchiha.
2: Tobirama And Obito both flat out told us that some of the Uchiha still supported Madara.
3: As Tobirama and I've said ad nauseum, not all Uchiha fall to the curse

1. Case and point, you don't know either, and Tobirama doesn't give any numbers of how many who did. We know of less than 10 Uchiha's who attained MS, with others who apparently tried to attain it. Regardless, trying to attain MS doesn't mean there is an actual curse, it means that the Uchiha clan was hungry for power. Hungry for power =/= to a curse.

2. Tobirama was also biased and all of Obito's knowledge of the Uchiha clan comes from Madara who not only lied to him but was biased himself. How did they support Madara if they all abandoned him and chose Hashirama? That doesn't make any sense.

What actually happened, or rather what we are told what happened, was the Uchiha clan began to change back to the way Madara thought via Tobirama's treatment of them. Orochimaru then commented that Tobirama essentially created a self-fulfilling prophecy out of his own prejudice which culminated in the planning of a coup by Fugaku and destruction of the clan.

Regardless, again, none of this has to do with an actual curse. The Uchiha were discriminated against and thus acted a certain way, a way that has nothing to do with the curse.

3. Then there is no curse. How can there be a curse if it picks and chooses who it wants to affect? The fact of the matter is the Uchiha are like all humans. Some fall into darkness, some don't.

In the case of the Uchiha clan (and many other characters in the manga) we have people succumbing to mental illness via scaring experiences and manipulation. The same exact fucking thing happened to Gaara, and he overcame it, just like Sasuke did and like Obito did. The Uchiha clan's curse is nothing more than a product of the ninja system.

Hell, Tobirama could be considered cursed as well. The massive amount of loss he suffered forced him to isolate an entire group of people and create a jutsu that raises the dead.

Lie isn't the word I'd use. I'd comfortably claim it's based on absolutely nothing though. It's just, you have to understand what it looks like when you argue against what's been shown in the manga, and the best argument you've got is "Nah, that's not true cause the manga contradicts it", and then the proof you mention is fucking non-existent.

And you can't say Tobirama only has proof of 3 Uchiha going crazy, because he said "I've seen it happen many times." HIS TESTIMONY IS MY PROOF. You don't have anything that can be likened to this. Word of mouth from the most knowlegable person on Uchiha relations outside of the actual Uchiha clan. The fact that I'd take his word over yours should be of no surprise. You've shown me no manga contradictions to what he claims. None. Not any. You haven't shown a lot of Uchiha who weren't affected by the curse. You haven't proven that Tobirama's experiments didn't prove what he claims they did. You didn't prove that his bias makes his claims inaccurate either.

So you are basing your entire argument on the words of one ninja, who mind you, has no evidence other than his own hearsay backing his own claims. Who is so biased he was ready to kill Sasuke without even hearing him out.

In the entire course of the manga a curse is never not once mentioned until Tobirama mentions it. In fact, his own brother, who has just as much experience as him, wasn't sure to believe him.

"I've seen in countless times"...he must have been the only one to see it, because Danzou, Sarturobi, Orochimaru, Madara, and Itachi never mention a curse among the Uchiha. I would think Itachi would have been able to justify his actions more if there was a curse yet he never mentions it. Danzou who hated the Uchiha clan never mentioned it. Sarturobi who was Tobirama's student never mentioned it. Orochimaru who was obsessed with the Uchiha clan never mentions it. They never mentioned it because it doesn't exist, it was an excuse Tobirama created to justify his own actions.

Black Zetsu's entire speech about manipulated people as far back Indra goes to show that the curse is a bunch of bullshit. Tobirama had no idea Black Zetsu even existed.

Black Zetsu was essentially the curse. He kept prodding the Uchiha clan, using them as pawns.

 

[Impossibility]

So I'm just going to wade in to point out a few issues.

I do, because I'm the omnipotent reader who knows more about the Uchiha clan than Tobirama does lol. I'm also not nearly as biased as he is. While he was dead, I was able to see the course of Uchiha and Ninja history. He wasn't.

Tobirama probably has seen more of the Uchiha than we have. We got a peak at the beginning, watched the end, and saw very little of everything in between. Tobirama fought against and then lived with the Uchiha over the course of decades. And he took steps beyond any other to investigate them. As you point out yourself, we know of less than 10 Uchiha who achieved MS, and probably have only seen the same number of plain old Sharingan users. We rely on the Edos, and their knowledge, quite a bit, this isn't really any different.

In the entire course of the manga a curse is never not once mentioned until Tobirama mentions it. In fact, his own brother, who has just as much experience as him, wasn't sure to believe him.

That's just not true. Tobi mentions it ages, about 200 chapters, before Tobirama has his chance to speak on the issue.

"I've seen in countless times"...he must have been the only one to see it, because Danzou, Sarturobi, Orochimaru, Madara, and Itachi never mention a curse among the Uchiha. I would think Itachi would have been able to justify his actions more if there was a curse yet he never mentions it. Danzou who hated the Uchiha clan never mentioned it. Sarturobi who was Tobirama's student never mentioned it. Orochimaru who was obsessed with the Uchiha clan never mentions it. They never mentioned it because it doesn't exist, it was an excuse Tobirama created to justify his own actions.

Tobi mentions it, and quite frankly, his background was shaped almost entirely by Madara. Tobirama goes off on it, and despite Hashirama interrupting him multiple times and Orochimaru speaking up to criticise him for his actions, they don't once dispute his portrayal of the Uchiha and the Curse. No one does. That's one of the issues, despite readers criticising the claims about the Curse, the actual characters allow that portrayal to stand when it's stated as fact.

Black Zetsu's entire speech about manipulated people as far back Indra goes to show that the curse is a bunch of bullshit. Tobirama had no idea Black Zetsu even existed.

Black Zetsu was essentially the curse. He kept prodding the Uchiha clan, using them as pawns.

I do agree with this. It's impossible to deny that Zetsu played a major role in the history and the curse of the Uchiha. That, however, doesn't exclude the other aspects.

 

[M3J]

I am neutral towards Sasuke, but I don't like the idea of someone being labeled crazy or mentally fucked up since birth or whatever.

Is there really any proof that Tobirama's "theory" was right? All we have are words, but have we seen any Uchiha go crazy like that? I mean, it took Madara overhearing his clan might be ruined by Tobirama for him to finally go off, while Sasuke wasn't blindly killing anyone associated with the Massacre, he was still confirming the story. Also, either way anyone spins it all Uchiha are guilty of their actions, curse or not. Sasuke definitely is, given he was controlled enough to verify what he was told and calmed down after talkin to Itachi and tying with Naruto.

 

[Exodi]

I am neutral towards Sasuke, but I don't like the idea of someone being labeled crazy or mentally fucked up since birth or whatever.

Is there really any proof that Tobirama's "theory" was right? All we have are words, but have we seen any Uchiha go crazy like that? I mean, it took Madara overhearing his clan might be ruined by Tobirama for him to finally go off, while Sasuke wasn't blindly killing anyone associated with the Massacre, he was still confirming the story. Also, either way anyone spins it all Uchiha are guilty of their actions, curse or not. Sasuke definitely is, given he was controlled enough to verify what he was told and calmed down after talkin to Itachi and tying with Naruto.

Tobirama's statements are all we have, really. His attitude towards Uchiha, the actions he took towards them, and the stuff you just mentioned don't really serve to support his "curse of hatred" idea.

 

[M3J]

Not to mention, for all we know Tobirama could have killed some of Uchiha's loved ones just to make those Uchihas go crazy so he could tell his brother that his theory was true. if any other Uchiha went crazy.

And out of all the Uchiha that we saw go crazy, bar Obito, they were still sane and coherent enough to be aware of their actions. Sasuke chose vengeance at least three times, Madara chose his path after suffering heavy losses, Itachi and Shisui never chose vengeance or murder despite everything, and many more other examples.

 

[ninjabot]

Itachi and Shisui never chose vengeance or murder despite everything, and many more other examples.

Itachi threatened to put the entire village that he loved in danger if Danzou attacked Sasuke. Think about that for a second. He said he'd give up Konoha's secrets to their enemies.

All of Konoha's innocents were weighed against his brother's life and found inferior. The same village he chose over his own kinsmen.

Itachi isn't as big a good guy as people like to make him out to be. Genocide is a big deal. He even looked like he was going insane when he got pissed off at the clan and started attacking everyone in front of his home. So much so that his eye randomly transformed into an MS for a second. His hatred was boiling over at that moment. Only reason he wasn't the one casting Mugen Tsukuyomi at the end of the manga is because Sasuke wasn't killed.

 

[Impossibility]

Itachi threatened to put the entire village that he loved in danger if Danzou attacked Sasuke. Think about that for a second. He said he'd give up Konoha's secrets to their enemies.

All of Konoha's innocents were weighed against his brother's life and found inferior. The same village he chose over his own kinsmen.

Itachi isn't as big a good guy as people like to make him out to be. Genocide is a big deal. He even looked like he was going insane when he got pissed off at the clan and started attacking everyone in front of his home. So much so that his eye randomly transformed into an MS for a second. His hatred was boiling over at that moment. Only reason he wasn't the one casting Mugen Tsukuyomi at the end of the manga is because Sasuke wasn't killed.

I think most readers tend to overlook most of Itachi's issues. A lot of it comes down to the fact that he turned out to be far different than what he was packaged as for so long. Somehow the only alternative to being a sociopathic genocidal maniac was good guy. I was rather fond of Itachi, he was an impressive and entertaining character. However, I don't think anyone's gotten a pass like Itachi has. People rail on about the unfair treatment, known and perceived, that the Uchiha were subject to....and then somehow ignore the fact that Itachi massacred every man, woman, and child in the clan with the exception of his brother, the one he slaughtered them for. That's more f@*!ed up than anything Sasuke managed to go through with.

Not to mention, for all we know Tobirama could have killed some of Uchiha's loved ones just to make those Uchihas go crazy so he could tell his brother that his theory was true. if any other Uchiha went crazy.

And out of all the Uchiha that we saw go crazy, bar Obito, they were still sane and coherent enough to be aware of their actions. Sasuke chose vengeance at least three times, Madara chose his path after suffering heavy losses, Itachi and Shisui never chose vengeance or murder despite everything, and many more other examples.

Case in point. Makes the ridiculous speculation that Tobirama was out and about killing Uchiha to make other Uchiha crazy....then claims Itachi never chose murder. Somehow fails to realise the irony.

 

[Mangang]

Itachi threatened to put the entire village that he loved in danger if Danzou attacked Sasuke. Think about that for a second. He said he'd give up Konoha's secrets to their enemies.

All of Konoha's innocents were weighed against his brother's life and found inferior. The same village he chose over his own kinsmen.

Itachi isn't as big a good guy as people like to make him out to be. Genocide is a big deal. He even looked like he was going insane when he got pissed off at the clan and started attacking everyone in front of his home. So much so that his eye randomly transformed into an MS for a second. His hatred was boiling over at that moment. Only reason he wasn't the one casting Mugen Tsukuyomi at the end of the manga is because Sasuke wasn't killed.

By your logic, the only reason Hashirama wasn't the one wagging is coz Tobirama wasn't kill. Lol
Look at Hashirama's face when Uchiha tried to kill his bother.

 

[ninjabot]

By your logic, the only reason Hashirama wasn't the one wagging is coz Tobirama wasn't kill.

...Hashirama wasn't an Uchiha, so even if Tobirama was killed it wouldn't matter.

I think most readers tend to overlook most of Itachi's issues. A lot of it comes down to the fact that he turned out to be far different than what he was packaged as for so long. Somehow the only alternative to being a sociopathic genocidal maniac was good guy. I was rather fond of Itachi, he was an impressive and entertaining character. However, I don't think anyone's gotten a pass like Itachi has. People rail on about the unfair treatment, known and perceived, that the Uchiha were subject to....and then somehow ignore the fact that Itachi massacred every man, woman, and child in the clan with the exception of his brother, the one he slaughtered them for. That's more f@*!ed up than anything Sasuke managed to go through with.

Yep. Context matters. I liked... well, still like Itachi a lot too and chalk a lot of the shitty things he did up to the situation he was placed in. But I've got no delusions about what he did. People all too quickly forget that there were children amongst the Uchiha clan as well as non ninja civilians. They say he didn't go crazy but... murdering an entire clan including innocents for such a selfish reason. Protecting Konohagakure wasn't selfish, but killing innocent Uchiha to protect innocent Konoha citizens (and his little brother) was.

---------- Post added at 04:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 AM ----------

Case in point. Makes the ridiculous speculation that Tobirama was out and about killing Uchiha to make other Uchiha crazy....then claims Itachi never chose murder. Somehow fails to realise the irony.

I still subscribe to the "Tobirama's treatment of the clan contributed to the Uchiha's downfall and he's an asshole" camp, but I keep my speculation in check. For example, while I don't think he was running around killing random Uchiha, I DO think that he made them feel like shit by talking about them in public without treating the situation with care. Hashirama mentioned as much when he tells us he kept telling him to stop talking shit about the Uchiha. Tobirama's like the white guy who says to his one black friend "You're one of the good ones."

 

[M3J]

Itachi threatened to put the entire village that he loved in danger if Danzou attacked Sasuke. Think about that for a second. He said he'd give up Konoha's secrets to their enemies.

All of Konoha's innocents were weighed against his brother's life and found inferior. The same village he chose over his own kinsmen.

Itachi isn't as big a good guy as people like to make him out to be. Genocide is a big deal. He even looked like he was going insane when he got pissed off at the clan and started attacking everyone in front of his home. So much so that his eye randomly transformed into an MS for a second. His hatred was boiling over at that moment. Only reason he wasn't the one casting Mugen Tsukuyomi at the end of the manga is because Sasuke wasn't killed.

And how is that related to the curse of hatred thing or Itachi goin crazy when he didn't go crazy? Even when he thought Orochimaru took over Sasuke's body?

He looked like he was acting than genuinely pissed or insane. Not to mention, Itachi had a disease that was slowly killing him, so he couldn't have cast Mugen Tsukuyomi even if he wanted to.

Case in point. Makes the ridiculous speculation that Tobirama was out and about killing Uchiha to make other Uchiha crazy....then claims Itachi never chose murder. Somehow fails to realise the irony.

Link or quote to where I said Itachi never chose murder? And nothin ridiculous about the speculation, given Tobirama segregated the Uchiha and established ANBU. who knows what else he's capable of. Would be cool if you didn't accuse me of saying stuff I didn't say.

 

[Delbi]

Itachi is certainly given a pass, but nothing he did has anything to do with the curse Tobirama described. Itachi never went mad. When he was fighting Sasuke he acted "crazy" to make Sasuke kill him, but he himself was entirely rational and never crazy with anything he did.

He never threatened the entirety of Konoha if Danzou went after Sasuke. He threatened Danzou. From what I understood he was either going to out him to the village for being a shady bastard or he was going to just outright kill him himself. Realistically, neither of those scenarios would have lead to Konoha's downfall, not to mention he probably realized that Danzou wasn't foolish enough to cross him anyway so it wouldn't have mattered.

 

[Impossibility]

Link or quote to where I said Itachi never chose murder? And nothin ridiculous about the speculation, given Tobirama segregated the Uchiha and established ANBU. who knows what else he's capable of. Would be cool if you didn't accuse me of saying stuff I didn't say.

I quoted your last post:

And out of all the Uchiha that we saw go crazy, bar Obito, they were still sane and coherent enough to be aware of their actions. Sasuke chose vengeance at least three times, Madara chose his path after suffering heavy losses, Itachi and Shisui never chose vengeance or murder despite everything, and many more other examples.

It's right there in the middle of the sentence. So yes, you said that Itachi never chose murder, mere sentences after accusing Tobirama of murdering Uchiha to make them crazy.....somehow forgetting the fact that Itachi murdered his entire clan, with the one exception going a bit crazy for a stretch. No need for ridiculous speculation there.

 

[xXan]

Itachi threatened to put the entire village that he loved in danger if Danzou attacked Sasuke. Think about that for a second. He said he'd give up Konoha's secrets to their enemies.

All of Konoha's innocents were weighed against his brother's life and found inferior. The same village he chose over his own kinsmen.

Itachi isn't as big a good guy as people like to make him out to be. Genocide is a big deal. He even looked like he was going insane when he got pissed off at the clan and started attacking everyone in front of his home. So much so that his eye randomly transformed into an MS for a second. His hatred was boiling over at that moment. Only reason he wasn't the one casting Mugen Tsukuyomi at the end of the manga is because Sasuke wasn't killed.

The 2 points you raised don't have any "stain" on Itachi's status as "good guy". One was just a threat aimed at protecting his brother and NOT vengeance or even an evil act. It was a threat that I am ready to bet money would not be carried out or even end there since Danzo is not that stupid. The second one is practically nonsense. I don't remember having the entire population of Konoha on one side and Sasuke on the other and deciding to kill Konoha to save his brother. All Itachi did was ALLOW his brother to live. That is after he already sacrificed his entire clan, mother and father. NOTHING was found inferior for allowing his brother to live. I fail to see how him not having the strength to kill even his little brother after killing his entire clan and family for KONOHA lead to his status being less "good". How much more to those people deserve from him? Even after he was resurrected from death he STILL PROTECTED THEM.

Genocide was about to happen any way you slice it. The only difference is that if Itachi would not have done this the "genocide" would have been exponentially bigger then what it was. He had the choice of killing the clan and saving his brother and everybody else OR allow it to happen and his clan be killed anyway, death on Konoha's side for obvious reasons AND probably starting a world war. He choose the lesser of 2 evils, I don't agree with what he choose but his choice was done to save people after he exhausted all alternatives to stop his clan from this madness. He chose hate over love and accepted the village's hate when he saved them.

Also he was pissed at his clan, true, because of them his best friend died and he was forced into this mess. Also and for what? Their greed for power? That is what killed them, their greed for power and NOT Itachi.

I would not do or agree in someone doing what he did. I also don't agree on genocide no matter what the situation is. On the other hand what he did was acceptable by the standards of the village and the ninja world he lived in, his actions also saved lives overall.

---------- Post added at 06:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 PM ----------

I quoted your last post:



It's right there in the middle of the sentence. So yes, you said that Itachi never chose murder, mere sentences after accusing Tobirama of murdering Uchiha to make them crazy.....somehow forgetting the fact that Itachi murdered his entire clan, with the one exception going a bit crazy for a stretch. No need for ridiculous speculation there.

Let me ask you something, is a cop shooting a criminal down to save lives a murderer? Is the state a "murderer" by killing a criminal? Think carefully before answering. Of course the morally can shift from person to person but to call him a murderer... Its hard considering why he did it. The Uchiha were dead anyway, all he did was to save more lives that they would kill or lead to death. If he would have told the truth of why he did it the village or Sarutobi would not even banish him from the village or have any negative reaction over him. He choose to flee for his brother and the clans reputation. Danzo was the one who made everything possible and what did he get from Sarutobi? Nothing aside for losing root.
The Uchiha's greed for power got them killed, Itachi was forced to kill them after exhausting any alternatives because if not they would die anyway in the coming civil war and cause a ton of deaths on the other side just as well, not even going into the world war that was to come.

 

[Impossibility]

Let me ask you something, is a cop shooting a criminal down to save lives a murderer? Is the state a "murderer" by killing a criminal? Think carefully before answering. Of course the morally can shift from person to person but to call him a murderer... Its hard considering why he did it. The Uchiha were dead anyway, all he did was to save more lives that they would kill or lead to death. If he would have told the truth of why he did it the village or Sarutobi would not even banish him from the village or have any negative reaction over him. He choose to flee for his brother and the clans reputation. Danzo was the one who made everything possible and what did he get from Sarutobi? Nothing aside for losing root.
The Uchiha's greed for power got them killed, Itachi was forced to kill them after exhausting any alternatives because if not they would die anyway in the coming civil war and cause a ton of deaths on the other side just as well, not even going into the world war that was to come.

I don't have to think carefully or, quite frankly, even read this post in its entirety to know that Itachi, unquestionably, murdered almost his entire clan. There isn't any purpose to a debate about it. I do admit to being surprised that my point would once again be made so quickly though.