Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

jaymizzo

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I don't have to think carefully or, quite frankly, even read this post in its entirety to know that Itachi, unquestionably, murdered almost his entire clan. There isn't any purpose to a debate about it. I do admit to being surprised that my point would once again be made so quickly though.
It is true that whichever way you slice it... Murder is murder. It can be sugarcoated in a number of ways but the fact remains.

However, attributing the Uchiha's actions to a curse is beyond ludicrous at this point. Every single one of the Uchiha we have seen go 'crazy' or do evil acts did so with full knowledge of their actions. They did not do things simply because they had to.

A perfect example is Sasuke. We know that he was a happy kid who loved his family and brother to bits, when his world turned around he didn't know what to do. It was only because of Itachi constantly haunting him and pushing him towards darkness did Sasuke fully go down that path. We saw there was a moment where Sasuke was willing to let people in and connect with people... Itachi in the end came and ruined that for the sake of making Sasuke stronger etc

Also, after Itachi died, Sasuke made a conscious decision to go after Konoha and the elders. His revenge mission was Itachi but he extended that to others. Sasuke even made the point that he understands what Itachi did and why he did it (IIRC) but he chooses to see things differently. Keyword is choice. You do not have a choice when you are cursed. The curse drives your destiny, your path etc

Itachi is another example, though he was a murderer, he did all these things by choice. He did not wake up one morning and decide to slaughter his own clan. There was no supernatural force/entity and such influencing him to do anything. He was for the most part sane in his decisions (as far as Naruto is concerned). He even admitted to being wrong in his treatment of Sasuke. He knew he was the reason Sasuke was screwed up (this does not excuse the choices Sasuke made because he is an individual). He did not attribute anything he has done to an outside force or curse.

You lot are implying that this 'curse' is a driving force for the Uchiha. All these characters had free will and they exercised that free will in their own twisted ways.

Hell.. Sasuke even acknowledged to Gaara that he knows the path he has chosen and he was not going to stop. He knew where he was headed, he knew the consequences of his actions yet he did them anyway. That is conscious decision making. He is not driven to do these acts simply because he was born to be evil.

None is born 'evil' or 'good'. We become these things.
 
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Exodi

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I quoted your last post:



It's right there in the middle of the sentence. So yes, you said that Itachi never chose murder, mere sentences after accusing Tobirama of murdering Uchiha to make them crazy.....somehow forgetting the fact that Itachi murdered his entire clan, with the one exception going a bit crazy for a stretch. No need for ridiculous speculation there.
In M3J's defense, and I might be wrong here, I think he forgot to add the word "respectively".

Which makes sense when you think about it. Itachi never did anything out of pure vengeance. And Shisui didn't go murder crazy.
 

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You lot are implying that this 'curse' is a driving force for the Uchiha. All these characters had free will and they exercised that free will in their own twisted ways.
As far as I know, I haven't said that once. I've simply pointed to it as a factor. It isn't any different from an individual with a predisposition toward greater aggression simply as a result of genetics. It doesn't alter the fact that the choice belongs to the individual, however, it does mean that the individual, or group, has a greater tendency toward an aggressive action because of their genetic makeup. And it's complicated. I've never attempted to excuse the actions of the Uchiha or lay the blame entirely at the feet of the Curse. I think I've made my thoughts on most of the members of the Uchiha Clan we've seen clear, it'd be pretty difficult to justify those opinions if I was arguing what you're suggesting. For me, this isn't a defence of the Uchiha, it's just a comment on one of the traits of their clan, or at least the Sharingan itself.


In M3J's defense, and I might be wrong here, I think he forgot to add the word "respectively".

Which makes sense when you think about it. Itachi never did anything out of pure vengeance. And Shisui didn't go murder crazy.
Honestly, if that was his intention he had the chance to clarify. Quite frankly, from the structure of that sentence alone, I seriously doubt there was any intention to add the word "respectively". It wouldn't make much sense. Add that to the prior comments, it seems pretty consistent with his sentiments.
 
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Mangang

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The 2 points you raised don't have any "stain" on Itachi's status as "good guy". One was just a threat aimed at protecting his brother and NOT vengeance or even an evil act. It was a threat that I am ready to bet money would not be carried out or even end there since Danzo is not that stupid. The second one is practically nonsense. I don't remember having the entire population of Konoha on one side and Sasuke on the other and deciding to kill Konoha to save his brother. All Itachi did was ALLOW his brother to live. That is after he already sacrificed his entire clan, mother and father. NOTHING was found inferior for allowing his brother to live. I fail to see how him not having the strength to kill even his little brother after killing his entire clan and family for KONOHA lead to his status being less "good". How much more to those people deserve from him? Even after he was resurrected from death he STILL PROTECTED THEM.

Genocide was about to happen any way you slice it. The only difference is that if Itachi would not have done this the "genocide" would have been exponentially bigger then what it was. He had the choice of killing the clan and saving his brother and everybody else OR allow it to happen and his clan be killed anyway, death on Konoha's side for obvious reasons AND probably starting a world war. He choose the lesser of 2 evils, I don't agree with what he choose but his choice was done to save people after he exhausted all alternatives to stop his clan from this madness. He chose hate over love and accepted the village's hate when he saved them.

Also he was pissed at his clan, true, because of them his best friend died and he was forced into this mess. Also and for what? Their greed for power? That is what killed them, their greed for power and NOT Itachi.

I would not do or agree in someone doing what he did. I also don't agree on genocide no matter what the situation is. On the other hand what he did was acceptable by the standards of the village and the ninja world he lived in, his actions also saved lives overall.

---------- Post added at 06:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 PM ----------



Let me ask you something, is a cop shooting a criminal down to save lives a murderer? Is the state a "murderer" by killing a criminal? Think carefully before answering. Of course the morally can shift from person to person but to call him a murderer... Its hard considering why he did it. The Uchiha were dead anyway, all he did was to save more lives that they would kill or lead to death. If he would have told the truth of why he did it the village or Sarutobi would not even banish him from the village or have any negative reaction over him. He choose to flee for his brother and the clans reputation. Danzo was the one who made everything possible and what did he get from Sarutobi? Nothing aside for losing root.
The Uchiha's greed for power got them killed, Itachi was forced to kill them after exhausting any alternatives because if not they would die anyway in the coming civil war and cause a ton of deaths on the other side just as well, not even going into the world war that was to come.
I don't agree with you at one point. What do you mean by greed for power?
Uchiha didn't rebel so that they can get power dude. They were alienated in the same village that they have sacrificed their blood to protect it. They were alienated in the village that they have proud.
They weren't trusted, they are pushed outskirt of the village. Imagine supposed you live in a diverse country, in which your state is treated as Konoha has treated Uchiha. Would you be Happy at that status of your self. This happen in many part of the world.

Not being trusted when the village was in danger but still blaming them for not fighting for the village. Treated as almost like some scum who hide in their home. Anybody with honor and self respect would rebel under those circumstances.
And Uchiha rebel for honor not power.
 

jaymizzo

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As far as I know, I haven't said that once. I've simply pointed to it as a factor. It isn't any different from an individual with a predisposition toward greater aggression simply as a result of genetics. It doesn't alter the fact that the choice belongs to the individual, however, it does mean that the individual, or group, has a greater tendency toward an aggressive action because of their genetic makeup. And it's complicated. I've never attempted to excuse the actions of the Uchiha or lay the blame entirely at the feet of the Curse. I think I've made my thoughts on most of the members of the Uchiha Clan we've seen clear, it'd be pretty difficult to justify those opinions if I was arguing what you're suggesting.
Fair enough. However, Tobirama basically said the Uchiha are destined to being evil when they lose a loved one or an object of their affection, they become unstable as a result... Hence why he was willing to kill Sasuke without a second thought because he didn't want to risk a 'nutjob' running around. Tobiramas assessment as Delbi pointed out is very flawed. He failed to account for the stone tablet that was altered and Black Zetsu, who was more a driving force than this so called 'curse'.

I can understand that the Uchiha unlock their powers through traumatic events or bursts of strong emotion, but never that this will inevitably lead them to being evil. It happens in real life too. Some people can turn a loss into something very dark because of how they choose to deal with the loss or some people snap. Others simply adapt and move on, they use that loss as a driving force to doing good. That is why I firmly believe that this curse does not exist, Tobirama basically explained what happens when people suffer traumatic events and exclusively attributes the consequences of said events to the Uchiha. Like I said, no one is born evil.

Similarly to the child of the prophecy nonsense (which I will never get over). When a character acknowledges that they could just as easily gone a different path but they chose not to, to me, thats an indication that things like destiny or curses do not exist.

For me, the idea of a curse (which now I understand you see as a contributing variable rather than a focus) or destiny simply takes away any complexity in a character. It is denying a character of free will or choice. They become a vessel of something set in stone, their decisions are driven towards a particular unchanging outcome. I do not see any of these characters as ones who could not have altered their paths had they chose to. I choose to see them as complex beings who made their own decision off their own volition.

Humour me for a second. Do you believe that if someone is cursed to walk the earth for eternity that they could choose to rest? Does this individual know why they are walking endlessly even when tired?
 

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Fair enough. However, Tobirama basically said the Uchiha are destined to being evil when they lose a loved one or an object of their affection, they become unstable as a result... Hence why he was willing to kill Sasuke without a second thought because he didn't want to risk a 'nutjob' running around. Tobiramas assessment as Delbi pointed out is very flawed. He failed to account for the stone tablet that was altered and Black Zetsu, who was more a driving force than this so called 'curse'.
I don't think anyone's arguing that Tobirama's portrayal was spot-on. That'd be a rather big waste of time. We know things he simply couldn't have. And let's be honest, despite Tobirama's claims of doom and gloom, he freely put forward Kagami as an alternative. Even he didn't believe that the Curse was absolute. And I know you know that isn't why he intended to kill Sasuke, he intended to eliminate Sasuke only after Sasuke laid out the option of destroying Konoha. I'm pretty sure Tobirama would've reacted with killing intent regardless of whether the threat came from an Uchiha, a Hyuuga, or the Easter Bunny. It definitely didn't help that Oro was there.

For me, the idea of a curse (which now I understand you see as a contributing variable rather than a focus) or destiny simply takes away any complexity in a character. It is denying a character of free will or choice. They become a vessel of something set in stone, their decisions are driven towards a particular unchanging outcome. I do not see any of these characters as ones who could not have altered their paths had they chose to. I choose to see them as complex beings who made their own decision off their own volition.
That's understandable. And I would never argue that the Curse stripped the Uchiha of their free will, I don't think that argument has been made by anyone here. It's just another aspect of a Sharingan-wielder that can influence them. it's just that much more difficult for them to keep it together than everyone else.
 
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xXan

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I don't have to think carefully or, quite frankly, even read this post in its entirety to know that Itachi, unquestionably, murdered almost his entire clan. There isn't any purpose to a debate about it. I do admit to being surprised that my point would once again be made so quickly though.
It is since you refuse to understand that this "murder" is highly subjective based on who is looking at. To you is murder, to someone else is saving. You could have said "Sasuke killed the entire clan". That would be objective.
Now moving from this the meaning of the words:

MURDER: Murder is the killing of another person without justification or valid excuse, and it is especially the unlawful killing of another person with malice aforethought.
Does this apply to what Itachi did? I would say NO.

Killing: Killing is causing the death of a living organism.
Is this what Itachi did? YES.

So again, read what I posted carefully. Itachi killed his clan, he did not murder them. He saved lives but killing terrorists. Cops taking out bank robbers are not murdering them, they are killing them. Same for the state and a criminal I gave you before.

There is perfect room for debate over what you said. Did Itachi murder his clan? Questionable and I would say no. Did he kill them? This is not arguable and the answer is YES.

---------- Post added at 06:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 PM ----------

I don't agree with you at one point. What do you mean by greed for power?
Uchiha didn't rebel so that they can get power dude. They were alienated in the same village that they have sacrificed their blood to protect it. They were alienated in the village that they have proud.
They weren't trusted, they are pushed outskirt of the village. Imagine supposed you live in a diverse country, in which your state is treated as Konoha has treated Uchiha. Would you be Happy at that status of your self. This happen in many part of the world.

Not being trusted when the village was in danger but still blaming them for not fighting for the village. Treated as almost like some scum who hide in their home. Anybody with honor and self respect would rebel under those circumstances.
And Uchiha rebel for honor not power.
By greed for power I mean they where reading to plunge the village into chaos killing countless people and starting a world war for the sole reason of gaining power (AKA leading the village). This was not about "gaining honor"... The reason they were alienated does not contradict why they attacked the village. They did so to gain power. The Uchiha were still 1 of the most respected and powerful clans in the village.
But to answer the rest, yes I would not be happy, I would be pissed. I would do my best to earn the trust of the village and find a way to fix the problem. What I would not do is use force like in a revolt killing people to achieve this goal. The Uchiha still had land, respect, food and everything they needed to live. The leader of the village Sarutobi even agreed they were threated badly and unfairly, peace talks could have concluded in a way that they would be placed under better position but their hate was to much for that. Losing trust of the leadership is not enough to spark a world war.

When Kurama attacked the village under a guy with a sharingan and the ENTIRE UCHIHA CLAN was not there to help tends to screw the village trust over you. Its perfectly understandable.

PS. If for you HONOR translate into attacking the village you are swore to protect, weaken it so badly that invaders can conquer it and start a world war.... Yes they where not treated right, they don't carry the entire blame for what happened... Thing is that does not justify doing this.
Read more here:
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Uchiha_Clan_Downfall
 
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Impossibility

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It is since you refuse to understand that this "murder" is highly subjective based on who is looking at. To you is murder, to someone else is saving. You could have said "Sasuke killed the entire clan". That would be objective.
Now moving from this the meaning of the words:

MURDER: Murder is the killing of another person without justification or valid excuse, and it is especially the unlawful killing of another person with malice aforethought.
Does this apply to what Itachi did? I would say NO.

Killing: Killing is causing the death of a living organism.
Is this what Itachi did? YES.

So again, read what I posted carefully. Itachi killed his clan, he did not murder them. He saved lives but killing terrorists. Cops taking out bank robbers are not murdering them, they are killing them. Same for the state and a criminal I gave you before.

There is perfect room for debate over what you said. Did Itachi murder his clan? Questionable and I would say no. Did he kill them? This is not arguable and the answer is YES.
You're free to qualify, attempt to justify, and make pointless analogies. It honestly isn't going to change the facts. Itachi murdered men, women, and children. You're the only person wasting time on this.
 

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You're free to qualify, attempt to justify, and make pointless analogies. It honestly isn't going to change the facts. Itachi murdered men, women, and children. You're the only person wasting time on this.
I love it when people post the opinions they have as facts and don't even bother to support the so called "facts" they have. Its laughable. You do not have a fact, you have an OPINION and that alone. How many people in Konoha would sentence Itachi for what he did and how many would raise him a statue? Who out of all the people who spoke about him called him a murderer or anything negative and how many praised him (who knew the truth)? He went before Sarutobi before leaving the village, if he was such a murderer how come that guy did nothing?
The "mission" was sanction by leaders of the "government" because the faction was about to unleash hell and destruction on the village they swore to defend bud. The Uchiha were a dangerous element to the village.
Even Naruto understood why he had to do it:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/549/8
You are the only one digging your heals in and refusing reason. Naruto is addressing him as a hero, as a protector of the village and one Sasuke should inherit his ways.

If I would not have showed you the definition of the word "murder" I would still be under the idea that you have no clue what it means. Those people would have died anyway, the only difference is that Itachi, by killing them before the revolt SAVED A TON OF LIVES ON THE OTHER SIDE. Nobody in his clan would have been left alive, even after he killed the clan if he allowed the kids to live they would have been KILLED, he had to plead with the Hokage and threaten Danzo to keep even Sasuke alive.(not that I even noticed kids aside for Sasuke but meh). You have a narrow view of his sacrifice (yes, sacrifice) and only look at the moment he killed those people and don't take this as a hole.
 
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Impossibility

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I love it when people post the opinions they have as facts and don't even bother to support the so called "facts" they have. Its laughable. You do not have a fact, you have an OPINION and that alone. How many people in Konoha would sentence Itachi for what who did and how many would raise him a statue?
The "mission" was sanction by leaders of the "government" because the faction was about to unleash hell and destruction on the village they swore to defend bud. The Uchiha were a dangerous element to the village.
Even Naruto understand why he had to do it:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/549/8
You are the only one digging your heals in and refusing reason. Naruto is addressing him as a hero, as a protector of the village and one Sasuke should inherit his ways.

If I would not have showed you the definition of the word "murder" I would still be under the idea that you have no clue what it means. Those people would have died anyway, the only difference is that Itachi, by killing them before the revolt SAVED A TON OF LIVES ON THE OTHER SIDE. You have a narrow view of his sacrifice (yes, sacrifice) and only look at the moment he killed those people and don't take this as a hole.
I'm going to respond to this, only because it's veered from being pointless to being flat-out nonsensical. In here, the reasons wilfully taking the lives of men, women, and children isn't murder are public opinion, supposed government sanctioning, and Naruto's understanding. Wow, that's deep. Ok, you keep running with this. The rest of us are going to stick with reason, you can stay in your corner with the ignorant and thoughtless citizens of Konoha, Danzo, and the paragon of wisdom whose understanding triumphs over all, Naruto.
 

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I don't think anyone's arguing that Tobirama's portrayal was spot-on. That'd be a rather big waste of time. We know things he simply couldn't have. And let's be honest, despite Tobirama's claims of doom and gloom, he freely put forward Kagami as an alternative. Even he didn't believe that the Curse was absolute. And I know you know that isn't why he intended to kill Sasuke, he intended to eliminate Sasuke only after Sasuke laid out the option of destroying Konoha. I'm pretty sure Tobirama would've reacted with killing intent regardless of whether the threat came from an Uchiha, a Hyuuga, or the Easter Bunny. It definitely didn't help that Oro was there.
From what I gathered through some posts is that some believe the curse exists and is the driving force of some Uchiha. If Tobirama himself contradicts his very own assessment (going by what you said about Kagami being an alternative), then why hang onto his words? Why do they hold any credibility if he himself is questioning this 'curses' validity by providing an exception? This is not specifically targeted at you but to any who believe n the existence of this curse.

Yeah, I might have gone a bit too far on the Sasuke bit. Need to brush up on my Naruto... Getting rusty.

@ xXan
I hope you realise that Itachi did not simply kill the leaders of the coup or those who were going to participate... He also murdered every last woman and child until there was only him, Sasuke and Tobi. Those authorities you cite sanctioned murder of innocent civilians. They had nothing to do with the coup and some of them probably hadn't even unlocked the Sharingan (highly likely the majority didn't). So what Itachi did was murder. That is a fact. Backed up by the definition you yourself provided.

Also, to me, Naruto is not really a good judge of morality. His track record recently is quite poor. He called the guy who instigated a war, caused both his parents death, further caused hundreds of more deaths and practically ruined his childhood the 'coolest guy'. So him calling Itachi a hero for wiping out an entire clan kinda makes you question his judgement on moral standing no?
 

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From what I gathered through some posts is that some believe the curse exists and is the driving force of some Uchiha. If Tobirama himself contradicts his very own assessment (going by what you said about Kagami being an alternative), then why hang onto his words? Why do they hold any credibility if he himself is questioning this 'curses' validity by providing an exception? This is not specifically targeted at you but to any who believe n the existence of this curse.
Tobirama is only contradicting himself if his assertion is that the curse absolutely dooms the individual to a certain fate, which it never was. Nor is it mine. Tobirama, in his own explanation of the Curse, explains what can happen, and then qualifies that it happens in almost all, not all, of a specific subsection, not all, of the Uchiha. This portrayal often gets lost in his more dramatic proclamations of curses, fate, and destiny, which tend to grab a bit more attention.
 

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I'm going to respond to this, only because it's veered from being pointless to being flat-out nonsensical. In here, the reasons wilfully taking the lives of men, women, and children isn't murder are public opinion, supposed government sanctioning, and Naruto's understanding. Wow, that's deep. Ok, you keep running with this. The rest of us are going to stick with reason, you can stay in your corner with the ignorant and thoughtless citizens of Konoha, Danzo, and the paragon of wisdom whose understanding triumphs over all, Naruto.
You have yet to show me how his supposed murder is not subjective considering many people including everybody in the manga thinks he is a hero who sacrificed himself for Konoha. I am still waiting for you to provide any argument aside for "its my morality that he is a murder and that is enough". I could continue to tell you how those kids where already dead and how he saved a lot more kids trough his actions but its obvious you are dead set in not providing any type of argumentation for anything.
3 posts down the line and you have yet to provide any type of argument, just said "its so because I say so and that is enough". That would be the definition of ignorance and not what I do.

PS. Saying "the rest of us" when you are the only one considering this in this topic before the other guy posted is actually damn funny. Also if 100 believed 1+1=3 and 1 believed 1+1=2 the 100 would not be right.


@@jaymizzo


I hope you realise that Itachi did not simply kill the leaders of the coup or those who were going to participate... He also murdered every last woman and child until there was only him, Sasuke and Tobi. Those authorities you cite sanctioned murder of innocent civilians. They had nothing to do with the coup and some of them probably hadn't even unlocked the Sharingan (highly likely the majority didn't). So what Itachi did was murder. That is a fact. Backed up by the definition you yourself provided.

Also, to me, Naruto is not really a good judge of morality. His track record recently is quite poor. He called the guy who instigated a war, caused both his parents death, further caused hundreds of more deaths and practically ruined his childhood the 'coolest guy'. So him calling Itachi a hero for wiping out an entire clan kinda makes you question his judgement on moral standing no?
First I am going to provide you with the meaning of the word murder:
Murder is the killing of another person without justification or valid excuse, and it is especially the unlawful killing of another person with malice aforethought

Let me know how much that applies to what Itachi did. Did Itachi have justification or a valid excuse? Did he had malice?

Another definition:
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Were his actions unlawful? Last time I checked he was backed by the ruling "government". When the government sanctions something is no longer really murder. A government killing criminals or terrorists, or whatever else has justification and is lawful because said state is protecting its members from a dangerous element. Now going back "in time" to a world in Naruto's time this would be completely justifiable.

Now moving on. He killed everybody because those would be killed anyway. Even for Sasuke he had to beg Sarutobi for protection and threaten Danzo remember? Those kids who would have their entire families murder would most certainly turn on the village.
Those innocent civilians as you call them where planning to attack the village they swore to protect, killing countless civilians and shinobi that would stand in their way or get in they way. Sarutobi tried diplomacy when them, nothing worked. Not only this attack would cripple Konoha BUT it would start a world war.

So Itachi had 2 choices:
1- Allow the coop to start. His brother would die, the Uchiha kids would die, the women would die and the men would die. The village would be crippled with casualties on both sides (this time its not only Uchiha) and a new world war would be sparked.

2- Kill his entire clan. Yes entire clan, nobody would allow the kids of mother and fathers thy killed to live as that would mean a bunch of sharingan crazy villains going for Konoha's throat. How justifiable that was is irrelevant. The state decided that and no matter what Itachi would do it would come to pass. So killing the clan he saved his brother, saved the casualties on the other side(including kids and women) and stopped that world war before it started, I hope I don't need to discuss with you the casualties in something like that right? Including women and children.

In the end people he killed would have died anyway, he saved lives on the other hand, he was backed by the government and sent on this mission FOR KONOHA. Nobody in the entire ninja world called him a murderer and people PRAISED HIM and called him a hero. If Konoha would know the truth they would build him a statue. HIS OWN FAMILY as he was KILLING THEM called him a gentle person. How their pain would only last an instance but his a life time.

Murder is highly subjective, more so when its backed by the state. Calling him a murderer and not even provide arguments like the other guy did is wrong.

Oh and Naruto did not call Tobi "the coolest guy". He called Obito that, the one who wanted to be Hokage. The one who stood against Madara and saved their buts(and saved them from Kaguya). Obito had a mental brake down. That is why he turned mental. I don't see a problem with Naruto's praise.
 
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jaymizzo

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Itachi had absolutely no justification for killing every single member of the clan. He could have simply done what he did to Sasuke on the rest of them, let them focus their hate on him. Not all members of the Uchiha clan were in on the coup, surely the children and those without the sharingan were not going to participate in anything. You say that those children and women would have been killed anyway... No, they would have been murdered anyway by Danzou and co. You cannot indiscriminately wipe out an entire community of people and justify it as doing it for the greater good by murdering potential enemies. It is absurd.

Stop throwing around the definition of the word murder, everyone knows the difference. You are the one who refuses to consider or even acknowledge the existence of innocent civilians within the Uchiha clan. Again, Itachi may have killed those involved in the coup or those planning it but he murdered the rest. Even what the elders would have done was going to be murder.

And wait, are you seriously trying to differentiate between Tobi and Obito as if they are two completely different people? No. Obito was not suffering from MPD... He did not have an alter ego. He made those decisions and even acknowledged doing them. Obito suffered a psychotic episode when he saw Kakashi kill Rin. After that, he made conscious decisions and was aware of what he was doing, who he was and where he was headed. He saw loss and chose to turn that loss into something dark and twisted.

---------- Post added at 06:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 AM ----------

Tobirama is only contradicting himself if his assertion is that the curse absolutely dooms the individual to a certain fate, which it never was. Nor is it mine. Tobirama, in his own explanation of the Curse, explains what can happen, and then qualifies that it happens in almost all, not all, of a specific subsection, not all, of the Uchiha. This portrayal often gets lost in his more dramatic proclamations of curses, fate, and destiny, which tend to grab a bit more attention.
Even attributing his explanation of the curse to 'almost all' the Uchiha is still ridiculous to me. He had no idea of the existence of Black Zetsu, who as we found out was the reason the Uchiha mainly Madara became what they are today. Even then, we have only a number of known cases where an Uchiha went crazy after loss. I am sure all those who awoke or had the sharingan in the Hashirama flashback did not turn evil. Tobirama is a known bigot, he hates the Uchiha clan. His assessment was to justify his treatment and suspicion of them.

His words would hold some credibility if firstly he wasn't a bigot speaking against the clan he hates and secondly if he knew of the existence of beings such as Kaguya, had solid proof of the existence of SO6P or knew about Black Zetsu. Knowing either one of them would mean he considered other causes and not solely relied on one theory.
 
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Impossibility

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Even attributing his explanation of the curse to 'almost all' the Uchiha is still ridiculous to me. He had no idea of the existence of Black Zetsu, who as we found out was the reason the Uchiha mainly Madara became what they are today. Even then, we have only a number of known cases where an Uchiha went crazy after loss. I am sure all those who awoke or had the sharingan in the Hashirama flashback did not turn evil. Tobirama is a known bigot, he hates the Uchiha clan. His assessment was to justify his treatment and suspicion of them.
"Almost all" of a specific group amongst the Uchiha, not "almost all" Uchiha. And he didn't have knowledge of Black Zetsu, however, Black Zetsu's existence doesn't exclude the existence of the Curse. The emergence of the Sharingan itself in the individual has zero to do with Zetsu, the chakra itself isn't related to Zetsu. And this numbers game doesn't work. We've only a few Uchiha who we see take that route, of course, we've seen very few Sharingan users. We can count them on our fingers. And Tobirama wasn't fond of the Uchiha, I don't think anyone would dispute that. However, that doesn't make him a bigot, nor does it serve as some sort of counterweight to the existence of the Curse. Honestly, every single time I see the insult lobbed around, I question whether someone has actually thought it out. And it wasn't a theory only espoused by Tobirama, ages before Tobirama commented on an Uchiha in this manga, Tobi invoked the spectre of the Curse.

His words would hold some credibility if firstly he wasn't a bigot speaking against the clan he hates and secondly if he knew of the existence of beings such as Kaguya, had solid proof of the existence of SO6P or knew about Black Zetsu. Knowing either one of them would mean he considered other causes and not solely relied on one theory.
Firstly, he wasn't the only one that had that belief. So that's a moot point. Secondly, if we only accept information from unbiased sources, we know next to nothing because our troves of information on almost anything in this manga have pretty much come from those most involved and with a stake in what they're addressing. Thirdly, Kaguya's existence doesn't exclude the Curse's existence. In the face of individuals who were willing, far more able, and standing with much greater knowledge to question, the theory stood unchallenged. Hashirama let it stand, Oro let it stand, the manga let it stand. Obito, Madara's protégé, endorsed it long before Tobirama even explained it. Trying to portray this as some cockamamie theory of some hateful bigot is insulting and disingenuous to say the least.
 

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"Almost all" of a specific group amongst the Uchiha, not "almost all" Uchiha. And he didn't have knowledge of Black Zetsu, however, Black Zetsu's existence doesn't exclude the existence of the Curse. The emergence of the Sharingan itself in the individual has zero to do with Zetsu, the chakra itself isn't related to Zetsu. And this numbers game doesn't work. We've only a few Uchiha who we see take that route, of course, we've seen very few Sharingan users. We can count them on our fingers. And Tobirama wasn't fond of the Uchiha, I don't think anyone would dispute that. However, that doesn't make him a bigot, nor does it serve as some sort of counterweight to the existence of the Curse. Honestly, every single time I see the insult lobbed around, I question whether someone has actually thought it out. And it wasn't a theory only espoused by Tobirama, ages before Tobirama commented on an Uchiha in this manga, Tobi invoked the spectre of the Curse.
The issue is that Tobirama's research was incomplete and failed to take into account various other variables when coming to a conclusion. In sum he just did a shitty job testing his hypothesis and let his own bias bring him to the conclusion he wanted, not the conclusion that was actually correct.

Tobirama was essentially conducting an experiment when he took Madara's body, he had a hypothesis, that something was "wrong" with the Uchiha. His evidence prior to this was that the Uchiha clan when suffering loss awakened the Sharigan and thus went crazy. Problem is, we have several instances of this not being the case with our rather level headed and peaceful Uchiha members like Itachi, Kagami, and Shisui. We then have the entire warrior era Uchiha clan wanting peace and siding with Hashirama. It would seem then, that Tobirama's orginal conclusion wasn't as accurate as he thought.

Now in the context of the manga, the Sharigan is the only Kekkai Genkai awakened via emotional triggers. Why this is the case, we don't know.

Regardless, that fact alone doesn't seem to amount to some sort of "curse". It's simply how an Uchiha's unique biology works. Tobirama out of his own bias and hatred to the Uchiha labeled this biological response "a curse". Realistically, Uchiha clan members are a more evolved form of human; and their flight or fight response triggers a change in their physiology via the awakening of eye powers. In biological terms this is a form of mutation that using occurs during the evolutionary process. With the Uchiha however it's a trait that dates back to their non-human/extraterrestrial bloodline via Kaguya. Again, they have an advanced fight or flight response that normal humans lack.

This type of bodily response triggered by physically, mentally, and emotionally stressful situations is very similar in all humans. Similar combinations of chemicals are released when someone is playing sports, when they are happy, having sex, getting angry, etc. The difference with the Uchiha clan once again is that those chemical releases trigger a chakra release that awakens or advances their bloodline. How that can objectively be seen as a curse makes little sense.

We've seen various ways in which Uchiha members awaken their Sharigan.

Sasuke - when his brother murdered his clan - Hatred

Sarada - when she thought she was going to see her father - Happiness

Obito - when he thought his friends were going to die and he was fighting - Adrenal Response/Protective Instincts

Tobirama experienced these awakens via battle, and thus labeled the Uchiha crazy, because when people died they went on to kill his family members and allies....only thing is this is a normal thing we see from all characters throughout the manga. Gaara, Naruto, Zabuza, Kakashi, Tsunade, Chouji, etc. are all examples of people who got angry after particularly stressful situations in the manga and went on to pulverize their enemies. That makes them no different than the Uchiha clan yet they aren't labeled as "cursed".

Lastly, the best examples we have of "cursed" Uchiha members all have other variables that Tobirama never took into account, specifically outside forms of manipulation (Black Zetsu) and other actual curses such as Orochimaru's cursed seal. When you throw new variables into a scientific study that's already been conducted you have to redo the experiment to account for them. Tobirama's conclusion is thus outdated and very much so incorrect.

In the end, again, no actual curse exists. Instead, the Uchiha, being a little more than human, have a biological response that awakens their Sharigan. In no way shape or form can this awakening be tied to any form of insanity by the Uchiha clan members. In all instances of an Uchiha going "insane" (if you can even call it that) they were all driven by outside forces (manipulation by one or two other parties) and also suffered extreme psychological trauma in the form of physical abuse, exposure to large amounts of death and warfare, and the loss of multiple loved ones.

If anything, many Uchiha, like many shinobi, suffered from PTSD, psychosis, and depression, not a curse.
 
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Impossibility

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The issue is that Tobirama's research was incomplete and failed to take into account various other variables when coming to a conclusion. In sum he just did a shitty job testing his hypothesis and let his own bias bring him to the conclusion he wanted, not the conclusion that was actually correct.
I wouldn't say that his research was incomplete. We don't know the extent of his research. And the rest of this is, to be completely blunt, absolutely baseless. You literally have no clue how he tested his hypothesis. And you've no clue whether his bias affected his research. None.

Tobirama was essentially conducting an experiment when he took Madara's body, he had a hypothesis, that something was "wrong" with the Uchiha. His evidence prior to this was that the Uchiha clan when suffering loss awakened the Sharigan and thus went crazy. Problem is, we have several instances of this not being the case with our rather level headed and peaceful Uchiha members like Itachi, Kagami, and Shisui. We then have the entire warrior era Uchiha clan wanting peace and siding with Hashirama. It would seem then, that Tobirama's orginal conclusion wasn't as accurate as he thought.
This is entirely speculation. If you want to write a narrative, fine, but don't pass it off as though it's something that actually happened in the manga. We have no idea what sort of experimentation he did with Madara's body, or what his exact intent even was. And honestly, I'm just repeating myself. This would probably be easier if the individuals went back and bothered to actually read what Tobirama said. The existence of level-headed Uchiha doesn't discredit his theory. I addressed this multiple times in some of my most recent posts.

Now in the context of the manga, the Sharigan is the only Kekkai Genkai awakened via emotional triggers. Why this is the case, we don't know.

Regardless, that fact alone doesn't seem to amount to some sort of "curse". It's simply how an Uchiha's unique biology works. Tobirama out of his own bias and hatred to the Uchiha labeled this biological response "a curse". Realistically, Uchiha clan members are a more evolved form of human; and their flight or fight response triggers a change in their physiology via the awakening of eye powers. In biological terms this is a form of mutation that using occurs during the evolutionary process. With the Uchiha however it's a trait that dates back to their non-human/extraterrestrial bloodline via Kaguya. Again, they have an advanced fight or flight response that normal humans lack.

This type of bodily response triggered by physically, mentally, and emotionally stressful situations is very similar in all humans. Similar combinations of chemicals are released when someone is playing sports, when they are happy, having sex, getting angry, etc. The difference with the Uchiha clan once again is that those chemical releases trigger a chakra release that awakens or advances their bloodline. How that can objectively be seen as a curse makes little sense.
This seems to be an attempt at discrediting Tobirama's theory through basic human physiology. Unfortunately, as I'm sure you're aware, the individuals we're talking about have eyes that spontaneously change colour and design when they get super-emotional and then use those eyes to do things like cast illusions and manifest black flames that burn endlessly through the use of mystical energy that was gained centuries ago by an alien princess that ate a bit of a god. So, how about this? You provide an explanation for this using real-world science, and then maybe we can move forward as though it has a chance in hell of actually applying.

Tobirama experienced these awakens via battle, and thus labeled the Uchiha crazy, because when people died they went on to kill his family members and allies....only thing is this is a normal thing we see from all characters throughout the manga. Gaara, Naruto, Zabuza, Kakashi, Tsunade, Chouji, etc. are all examples of people who got angry after particularly stressful situations in the manga and went on to pulverize their enemies. That makes them no different than the Uchiha clan yet they aren't labeled as "cursed".
You don't actually know how he came to that conclusion or developed his reasoning. You just don't.

Lastly, the best examples we have of "cursed" Uchiha members all have other variables that Tobirama never took into account, specifically outside forms of manipulation (Black Zetsu) and other actual curses such as Orochimaru's cursed seal. When you throw new variables into a scientific study that's already been conducted you have to redo the experiment to account for them. Tobirama's conclusion is thus outdated and very much so incorrect.
Yes, the examples that we have. Most of those examples have nothing to with Tobirama's conclusion, considering that his conclusion emerged prior to their existence. We don't know of his examples, with the obvious exception of Madara. We don't know how many there were, who they were, what they did. You keep referencing what we've seen, we've barely seen anything. You're critical of Tobirama's methods, despite never having seen them, while having a study with a sample size that can be counted on your fingers, probably with room to spare. As it stands, the only criticisms coming up are of Tobirama, the tiny few examples we ourselves have seen, and other variables. Tobirama disliking the Uchiha Clan isn't an actual criticism of the theory, its even less useful when he isn't its only proponent. Exceptions are something that Tobirama accepted, they don't contradict his theory, the curse was never explained to be absolute. And the existence of other factors doesn't discredit the theory either. The reality is that a character put it out there, and it stood without any criticism from individuals with far greater knowledge of the issue than anyone here. So this just isn't going away.
 
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If the Sharingan is connected to strong emotions (usually negative ones it seems?) then I could see that possibly leading to an addiction to negative emotions for more power. The emotions are rewarded, creating some sort of behavioural pattern, no?

I do believe Tobirama's theory to some extent, but still, the Uchiha were segregated and treated poorly in other ways. Because of him, ironically. So yeah he's biased, but not 100% wrong I would say.
 

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Curses, spells, and other "magical" events are usually story-telling tools that can help us relate to what's going on. There may have been a "curse" in Naruto, but perhaps it's not something to be taken so literally. It doesn't matter if the curse is real or not. But as Notak said, the connection to strong (often negative) emotions and power creates a dependency on negative emotions, which could explain up what happened to the Uchiha.

Anyway, I don't think it's worth debating Tobirama's "curse" theory. Would some people here feel better if it had been called a "tendency" instead? It's just semantics at this point. At the end of the day, Tobirama had an idea of depressive/crazy tendencies of Uchiha shinobi, and that was it. Maybe in our world, that would translate to us branding a tribe or culture as excessively violent or barbaric or something (just a vague example). Stereotyping happens all the time..
 

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I wouldn't say that his research was incomplete. We don't know the extent of his research. And the rest of this is, to be completely blunt, absolutely baseless. You literally have no clue how he tested his hypothesis. And you've no clue whether his bias affected his research. None.
I would say it was incomplete based on the fact that he only used Madara's body, which was a Kage Bushin. It wasn't his real body but a copy. We've seen with Shin that there are in fact more perfect clones than Kage Bushin, and we also know it's regular practice in the manga to not simply leave bodies lying around so the idea that he was testing this theory on multiple Uchiha corpses doesn't hold much water. He observed things in battle then got access to Madara's fake corpse and conducted experiments.

To assume his bias didn't affect his conclusion to me would then discredit Hashirama's own anger with him. It's plainly obvious he was bias, it's part of his character. Could it have not influenced him? Sure. But the possibility remains that it very well could have, and you want to dismiss that on what basis exactly?

This is entirely speculation. If you want to write a narrative, fine, but don't pass it off as though it's something that actually happened in the manga. We have no idea what sort of experimentation he did with Madara's body, or what his exact intent even was. And honestly, I'm just repeating myself. This would probably be easier if the individuals went back and bothered to actually read what Tobirama said. The existence of level-headed Uchiha doesn't discredit his theory. I addressed this multiple times in some of my most recent posts.
Again, we have no idea but we want to just assume it was true? He wasn't a medical ninja, but we want to claim his medical experiments, that you said we have no idea about, were perfect because he's Tobirama?

And while the existence of level-headed Uchiha doesn't discredit his theory, it does infact lead to an alternate explanation. There are other explanations to this whole "curse" phenomena, mainly that there is no curse, and that the Uchiha's that experienced these sympotems simply succumbed to depression and psychosis via PTSD and manipulation.

This seems to be an attempt at discrediting Tobirama's theory through basic human physiology. Unfortunately, as I'm sure you're aware, the individuals we're talking about have eyes that spontaneously change colour and design when they get super-emotional and then use those eyes to do things like cast illusions and manifest black flames that burn endlessly through the use of mystical energy that was gained centuries ago by an alien princess that ate a bit of a god. So, how about this? You provide an explanation for this using real-world science, and then maybe we can move forward as though it has a chance in hell of actually applying.
Except basic human physiology does apply for the most part. The humans in this manga still function for the most part like normal humans but they have additional characteristics that can be explained via the science or whatever you wish to call it of the manga. There is a science to how these bodies work, if there wasn't Tobirama would never be able to explain what he did.

Tsuande is a perfect example of a human with PTSD. Naruto has had panic attacks before that make him pass out. We've seen Sasuke go temporarily insane. We've seen other people act like complete lunatics. Mental diseases obviously existence within the manga, so are we just so supposed to ignore it? All these diseases and actions are the function of mental/emotional responses that trigger reactions in brain chemistry. I don't think Kishi included them with the intention to offer an alternate explanation as to why the occur.

You don't actually know how he came to that conclusion or developed his reasoning. You just don't.
So then we just accept it as true? Characters have been wrong, very wrong before when claiming things in this manga. Why should we consider Tobirama any different especially after the revelation of Black Zetsu being the architect of literally every shitty thing that had to do with the Uchiha clan dating all the way back to Indra?

Yes, the examples that we have. Most of those examples have nothing to with Tobirama's conclusion, considering that his conclusion emerged prior to their existence. We don't know of his examples, with the obvious exception of Madara. We don't know how many there were, who they were, what they did. You keep referencing what we've seen, we've barely seen anything. You're critical of Tobirama's methods, despite never having seen them, while having a study with a sample size that can be counted on your fingers, probably with room to spare. As it stands, the only criticisms coming up are of Tobirama, the tiny few examples we ourselves have seen, and other variables. Tobirama disliking the Uchiha Clan isn't an actual criticism of the theory, its even less useful when he isn't its only proponent. Exceptions are something that Tobirama accepted, they don't contradict his theory, the curse was never explained to be absolute. And the existence of other factors doesn't discredit the theory either. The reality is that a character put it out there, and it stood without any criticism from individuals with far greater knowledge of the issue than anyone here. So this just isn't going away.
So I shouldn't be critical of something just because we didn't see it? That's the entire point, we have no evidence of what he did yet we take his conclusion for fact...because?

The fact that more evidence emerged later shows that his experiments were in fact incomplete, or at the very least out of date.

You just said yourself that the curse was never explained as an absolute, the character that wasn't discrediting it (Hashirama) also had doubts about it obviously but seemed to be quite emotional about the whole situation. No one else knew about this theory and thus said nothing. We the readers know things that Tobirama didn't, and despite you thinking the fictional character knows best, he doesn't know all. We can clearly discredit him as there are very relevant factors that weren't taken into account when he came to the conclusion he did.
 
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