Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

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Was it stated that the cloud's black Lightning was sage chakra? I don't think so. Black lightning that sasuke and Kakashi used wasn't even just sage chakra. It was rikudo. So the cloud's black lightning would be something greater than sage chakra which I highly doubt.
I don't think it was stated that there's a sage mode for Katsuyu too. It's a solid possibility but it was never really covered in the manga.
 

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Was it stated that the cloud's black Lightning was sage chakra? I don't think so. Black lightning that sasuke and Kakashi used wasn't even just sage chakra. It was rikudo. So the cloud's black lightning would be something greater than sage chakra which I highly doubt.
I don't think it was stated that there's a sage mode for Katsuyu too. It's a solid possibility but it was never really covered in the manga.
Here You go:

Chidori
Jugo

So as can be seen, context clues. Which then means every instance of black lightning that we seen outside of the cloud village had something to do with either senjutsu or Hagoromo who was known for being able to utilize it. Why that would change for the cloud, I have no idea. Because not the leaf village?

However, if the Databook says something different then I'll except that.

Also, earlier in the fight Kabuto flat out claims that Dragon cave, frog Mountain and the bone forest are each equally famous. And from Dragon Cave and frog Mountain we see two different forms of Sage mode. Katsuyu comes from the bone forest. I won't even bother bringing up Hashirama being related to Tsunade because that's flimsy. However, this one relies on context clues as well. Simply by means of association.
 
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Here You go:

Chidori
Jugo

So as can be seen, context clues. Which then means every instance of black lightning that we seen outside of the cloud village had something to do with senjutsu. Why that would change for the cloud, I have no idea. Because not the leaf village?

However, if the Databook says something different than I'll except that.

Also, earlier in the fight Kabuto flat out claims that Dragon cave, frog Mountain and the bone forest are each equally famous. And from Dragon Cave and frog Mountain we see two different forms of Sage mode. Katsuyu comes from the bone forest. I won't even bother bringing up Hashirama being related to Tsunade because that's flimsy. However, this one relies on context clues as well. Simply by means of association.
I know about sasuke's black lightning due to cursed seal and I was about to point out that cursed seal isn't sage mode when I realized that you said sage chakra not sage mode so you have a point. Darui and the 3rd may indeed use sage chakra for the black lightning although that's still speculation albeit a logical one. As for mentioning the notion that the black lightning from cloud is dismissed because it isn't konoha, I disagree. Sage mode isn't unique to konoha. In fact, it's not even something Konoha ninja possess. Hashirama was an anomaly and Naruto/Jiraiya learnt it from toads. Jugo utilizes senjutsu and he's not from konoha either. I was merely questioning the validity of your claims and it had nothing to do with the villages.

On the sage arts though, you have a weaker case. Kabuto categorically stated that the bone forest is as famous and mentioned nothing about it being similar. The fact that they're equally famous has nothing to do with whatever secrets or arts they may possess.
 

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I know about sasuke's black lightning due to cursed seal and I was about to point out that cursed seal isn't sage mode when I realized that you said sage chakra not sage mode so you have a point. Darui and the 3rd may indeed use sage chakra for the black lightning although that's still speculation albeit a logical one. As for mentioning the notion that the black lightning from cloud is dismissed because it isn't konoha, I disagree. Sage mode isn't unique to konoha. In fact, it's not even something Konoha ninja possess. Hashirama was an anomaly and Naruto/Jiraiya learnt it from toads. Jugo utilizes senjutsu and he's not from konoha either. I was merely questioning the validity of your claims and it had nothing to do with the villages.

On the sage arts though, you have a weaker case. Kabuto categorically stated that the bone forest is as famous and mentioned nothing about it being similar. The fact that they're equally famous has nothing to do with whatever secrets or arts they may possess.

I'm not denying that it's speculation, however, I just know that there was a big issue about Kishimoto not explaining anything about black lightning. Then when Jugo's condition was retconned from being an illness that he sought a cure for to somethings associated with senjutsu, it gave an answer to the whole black lightning question from the cloud. Even if speculative.

Regarding Katsuyu, it's merely process of elimination. I mean come on, and be aware I'm not claiming to be 100% right here, this is just what we were left with. But think about it, you got both the frogs and snakes having individual forms of Sage mode, while Kabuto slowly reveals that he too has sage mode and Dragon cave is where he learned it. Then we have Kabuto mention a place that we haven't heard about before that moment. Turns out the place that he mentioned, happens to be Katsuyu's home. Then we have Hashirama popping out of nowhere with an unclaimed form of Sage mode. I honestly believe that that's more than a simple anomaly, I mean really. But once again, I'm not claiming to be 100% right on the matter. But like I said though, context clues.

Also the comment about the leaf village was mainly due to my frustration with the fact that they get practically everything. It wasn't really directed at you. It's ridiculous, regardless of how deeply buried in the history of the world they are, that they can be in possession of practically every special art or tool or "weapon."

  • All the Sage mode's
  • All the eyes
  • One of the two villages to have a Jinchuriki still(being the only one out of the two that has the ability host all nine of them)
  • Hagoromo's sacred tools

I mean Jesus. I didn't mean to come off hostile, or snarky with that comment. My apologies if I did.
 

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Well like I said earlier, both points you made are logical conclusions based on details from the manga. I was just saying they weren't 100% which you already admitted so that's that.
On the second, no problem. Konoha did get everything. They're leagues ahead of all the other villages so it's an understandable frustration lol.
 

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Cursed seal is related to Sage Mode, since Jugo's clan has the innate ability to absorb Natural Energy, so since the Cursed Seal comes from Jugo, then it is related to Senjutsu too thus Sasuke's Chidori used in part 1 was a Senjutsu technique

We've seen then Sasuke using a Black Chidori using Rikudo's chakra, same for Kakashi... However in the fight against Deidara for example, his Chidori never turned black despite using the cursed seal
 

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The thing is, albeit I do understand your point, that in the manga Ninjutsu absolutely replies on Chakra Control. If the manga states that one character has better control then it can be taken as a relative statement. But once certain superlative qualities or comparisons are attached to it through a feat, it becomes undisputed. Naruto's Sage Mode literally allows him better chakra control. It isn't his skill.

Even then at the end, he chose extra hands to make two techs that he should have done so without the helping hands (no pun intended). Thousands of Kage Binhins that he has made only add up to his experience. And still the guy falters? That was my point. To top it off, the Bijuus Knead and then hand over the chakra. It means that little control on chakra is required from Naruto himself. That removes the relative factor when his skill is compared to Sakura (forget Sasuke, whose Chakra Control is well beyond his skill), who is managing a lot, and healing thousands by manipulating the seal that is 'the pinnacle of Chakra control'.

With feats, one can gauge where most characters lie and Naruto cannot be placed right at the top.
Both Naruto and Sasuke got praised for their exceptional chakra control ability while Naruto was compared to Minato and Sasuke to Rikudo. So its obvious that Sasuke remain at the top and followed by Sakura and Naruto.
 

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The speculation that cursed seal mode is sage mode is basically 100% canoon. I mean if you look at sasuke's face when he is in curse mark form.

Sasuke

and look at the markings when his susanoo is under Senjutsu influcence.

Susanoo

IF we assume that a person's senjutsu markings are unique to them, then its clear that the cross shaped senjutsu marking that appeared on Sasuke is due to Senjutsu enriching his chakra. The mutated appearance of Sasuke when in the Cursed mode sort of goes back to how Jiraya pointed out that if a person is unable to properly balance Senjutsu internally with their chakra then they create an imperfect sage mode. And they take on animalistic physical properties. Since cursed seal form isn't a naturally occuring sage form, it makes sense that the mutations don't look like any animal in particular. Just a combination of random animal characteristics.

Kakashi had senjutsu when he preformed his black lightning cutter... kamui thingy? He mentioned that his power had gone up because of Obitos eyes, which had been under the influence of perfect sage mode and were enriched with senjutsu. So him using Senjutsu powered black lightning also made sense in the context.

-I'm not trying to add to the fire, just tossing my opinion in the bowl whilst we are on the topic.
 
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There isn't really a fire to add fuel to. The whole point in starting this whole thing was to point out that black lightning all across the board has something to do with Senjutsu. Maybe not a specific mode, but at least the very use of the chakra. That goes for cloud as well. With every instance of black lightning having something to do with Hagaromo or Senjutsu it being somehow some different mechanism for the cloud seems highly unlikely. It also helps that the cloud is the only village aside from the leaf to have an affiliation with Hagaromo in the form of his sacred tools.
 

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The speculation that cursed seal mode is sage mode is basically 100% canoon. I mean if you look at sasuke's face when he is in curse mark form.

Sasuke

and look at the markings when his susanoo is under Senjutsu influcence.

Susanoo

IF we assume that a person's senjutsu markings are unique to them, then its clear that the cross shaped senjutsu marking that appeared on Sasuke is due to Senjutsu enriching his chakra. The mutated appearance of Sasuke when in the Cursed mode sort of goes back to how Jiraya pointed out that if a person is unable to properly balance Senjutsu internally with their chakra then they create an imperfect sage mode. And they take on animalistic physical properties. Since cursed seal form isn't a naturally occuring sage form, it makes sense that the mutations don't look like any animal in particular. Just a combination of random animal characteristics.

Kakashi had senjutsu when he preformed his black lightning cutter... kamui thingy? He mentioned that his power had gone up because of Obitos eyes, which had been under the influence of perfect sage mode and were enriched with senjutsu. So him using Senjutsu powered black lightning also made sense in the context.

-I'm not trying to add to the fire, just tossing my opinion in the bowl whilst we are on the topic.
I am not sure what Kakashi's black lightning was. I just assumed that because Obito had the Rikudo's power, Kakashi could merge some different Chakra types.
 

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Kakashi's raikiri was powered by the traces of rikudo chakra that Obito still had left hence the black form. If he just mixed different chakra types (which he couldn't by the way) it wouldn't matter since only senjutsu, taijutsu and rikudo chakra would work on Mathew juubi's jinchuriki.
 

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Re: Naruto FAQs and Simple Q&A's <3

Firstly, where does it say 'no' Uchiha entered the fight ? It doesn't highlight any Uchiha sure, but where does it say for sure there was none in the fight ? I even recall a panel of Itachi talking to baby Sasuke, saying his his parents had to go 'out' just after the attack happened... that seems to imply that the Uchiha helped in some calibre. Seeing how the main focus was the ANBU and the Third, we couldn't know who was on the sidelines helping evacuate citizens or suppress the damage the Kyuubi was doing... but that sounds like a police force job to me.
First suggestion read the manga.
Uchiha had the capablitiy to suppress Kyuubi yet DNAzo(like museum of all DNAs:hip) approach Hiruzen to not allow them in the front line so Hiruzen told them to do only resuing stuffs. By doing so he angered Uchiha coz that clearly so how much they don't trust Uchiha and discriminate. And as a result after the incident every villagers start question uchiha for not joining the fight against Kyuubi coz they believe many life and Yondaime could have been saved if Uchiha join the battle. So either your knowledge on the matter is lacking or you proposefully ignoring and playing dumb.
And your police comments really seems idiotic.

Second separated the senju and Uchiha. Danzo forced them into a tiny corner in the village. No the Third had nothing to do with it as is clearly stated in the Manga it was DAnzo and the Elders.
Where it was stated Tobirama seperated Senju and Uchiha? They were seperate from the beginning.
Whether you use tiny coner or outskirt is the same and it was Tobirama who did the karma.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/619/13

All Danzo and elder did was putting them under 24 hour surviellance. And about Third he was the Hokage, elders and Danzo only can give suggestion but it was Hokage who have to dish out the order.

And you keep insisting and blaming everything to Danzo only, but you re forgetting that it was Hiruzen who give those power to Danzo coz he admitted he wasn't qualified enough to handle dark side(I must sound like a DC fanboy:hee).

Again you are clearly missing whole point of mine when you reply to them. Either you didn't get them or you miss them intentionally.
Let say again my whole argument was about a single line Prevention is better than cure

Tobirama make mistakes by pushing Uchiha outskirt of the village and making a police force comprise only of Uchiha and buliding there hideout next to the village prison.
When Hiruzen succeded he failed to see those things and take any actions to prevent any ill feeling. He remain ignorant of everything and he even fueled their rage by not allowing them to a battle to save there village like some outcast. He could have control that if he was open to the villagers and make an excuse about why he didn't allow uchiha in the battle. By annoucing that it was he who didn't allow the uchiha, atleast it will help people to not question Uchihas and thereby lowering the possibility of enemity.

Again the worst thing to do is putting whole clan under surviallance as if they were home arrest. Uchiha clearly show through it.

If you think that is how a competent leader should behave then there is no point in disscussing further coz according to me that is the definition of a horrible leader.
 

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Firstly, you're wrong...

Not all Uchiha can suppress the Kyuubi. Amongst the Uchiha there are only a handful that have the Genjutsu strong enough to keep the Nine tails under their control. Notice how every time the Kyuubi is being controlled... the first thing anyone thinks is Madara? Madara is always noted as the ONLY Uchiha capable of controlling the 9-tails. While this is far from true. No one believes it's a common trait. Even Danzo needed the first hokage's cells in order to have enough chakra to even think about subjugating the 9 tails.

Madara, Obito, Itachi(Presumably) and Sasuke(Presumably). Itachi, i assume because he is noted to have the harshest genjutsu strength in the manga. And Sasuke we've seen control the other tailed beasts all at once so assuming he can control only the fox is a no brainer.

Being able to control the fox isn't some passive all Uchihas have. Only a dozen of the Hundreds of Uchiha are known for their genjutsu as the top 1% of Shinobi. And even less have the Chakra pool capable of handling the Kyuubi effectively. And even less of them have the skill to be able to completely smother out the Kyuubi's raw power and make it completely theirs.

""Hiruzen to not allow them in the front line so Hiruzen told them to do only resuing stuffs.""

^-Umm
And my policing statement wasn't 'dumb' you literally repeated what i said. You stated uchihas were responsible for rescuing the citizens... aka police work during a disaster. So you agreed with me but insulted me? It almost feels like you simply like to disagree with me because you're bored.

Lastly. Link. I've read 4 flash backs of the Attack and Nowhere did Danzo tell the 3rd to hold back the Uchiha. The shinobi who fought during the attack were barely highlighted because it was mostly about Naruto and his family. Iruka's parents and a few of the parents of the current gen were shown in their last moments. But no one ever said an Uchiha was NOT in the fight.

The Senju weren't shown during the attack... do we assume they weren't there? The Hyuuga weren't shown in the attack... do we assume they weren't there?

So unless you can show a link that specifically shows Danzo telling the 3rd to not let Uchiha fight the Nine-tails, you just made that point up.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secondly,

Good god you are daft. This is easy at this point.

Alright. The Second seperated them, not physically but he set up a system to make them hate each other.

He gave them control of the police force, knowing that people would soon dislike the Uchiha, and the Uchiha would become conceited and make everyone around them feel belittled. This promoted dislike in the village. This combined with the placement of the police headquarters forced Uchihas to move to the outer village.

The 2nd never physically made them move. He just set up their living situation, and fanned the flames of dislike between them and the Senju, so they would casually separate. Like water and oil after you shake up a bottle. Sort of Genius.

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/619/13

Thanks for that Link.

However Danzo + the Elders actually FORCED them to move into a corner of the village.

Kyuubi Attack

Camps - (Top left panel) Notice it was AFTER the attack, they were 'forced' into the living quarter.

There is the distinction. You can try to word shuffle out of this one but your own link killed your own point.

The 2nd never separated them, i gave that point to you thinking you knew what you were talking about.The Uchiha moved away from the Senju who disliked them for being the police and being too prideful. It was their decision.

Danzo on the other hand used actual physical means and intimidation to force them into a living quarter of the village.

Under the 2nd they might've been disliked because of racism towards them. But they at least had the ability to come and go as they pleased. But Danzo forced them into a single spot with no freedom and watched them daily. You cannot honestly believe those two are the same situation?


So in short:

Tobirama make mistakes by pushing Uchiha outskirt of the village and making a police force comprise only of Uchiha and buliding there hideout next to the village prison.
- Yes. I agree he made mistakes here. And just so we're clear, you know it is their POLICE headquarters and not their homes correct? He didn't push them out of the village. They decided to move because they weren't wanted in the village.

When Hiruzen succeded he failed to see those things and take any actions to prevent any ill feeling. He remain ignorant of everything and he even fueled their rage by not allowing them to a battle to save there village like some outcast.
-Again, he wasn't even in power when the Kyuubi attacked. He was retired. And no where in the manga did Danzo specifically tell ANYONE not to let the Uchiha fight in the battle. You made this up unless you have a link. Show me one and i'll apologize. But you don't have one so this is moot.

He could have control that if he was open to the villagers and make an excuse about why he didn't allow uchiha in the battle. By annoucing that it was he who didn't allow the uchiha, atleast it will help people to not question Uchihas and thereby lowering the possibility of enemity.
-Again the 4th Hokage gave out the orders to the Non-Anbu of this time period. If the Uchiha weren't allowed to fight, it'd be because Minato said so. The 3rd was retired during the Kyuubi attack.

And another Caviote. Danzo convinced the Elders. The Elders are stronger politically than the Hokage. Stop talking abotu what you clearly have no clue about. It's shown even when Tsunade is in a comma that the Fire Daimyo is the one who picks and keeps the Hokage in place. The Elders serve under him, and Danzo had influence on the both of them. So yes, the Elders are more important than the Hokage politically. And if they wanted to bad enough, they would replace him.

The Third did try. He voiced against discrimination of Uchihas actively. Even when Danzo and the elders were placing them under surveillance and plotting to murder them. He fought them at every step. He lacked the political power to stop them. You just see what you want to see. You honestly think he'd sit back and let it happen if he could give the order against it? He politically cannot. The Fire Daiymo's elders are above him. He was the one that allowed itachi to be an AnBu. A position that before the 3rd was NEVER given to Uchiha. But the third allowed him to become one in order to try to build trust with the Uchiha.

But what did the Uchiha do? They saw the Third Hokage give them a position of power, and demanded the Itachi spy for them so they could kill the 3rd hokage and everyone who was in power.

Again i agree with you... Prevention is better than a cure.

So why didn't the Uchiha back down after Knowing their two strongest fighters turned their backs on their cause... and continued to threaten to kill the whole village? Why didn't they understand that even if they all fought... they couldn't beat Itachi, so why continue the plan and risk the lives of their children?
 
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And we've seen Tsunade say a big fuck you to the advisors, the fire Daimyo doesn't pick the Hokage alone, if the rest of the village doesn't accept him, then no Hokage. We've never seen a Hokage being demoted too

Hiruzen clearly said that he was too weak and soft and that's what allowed the tragedy, the anime offers an interesting perspective, during Obito/Kakashi's flashbacks, it was seen that Hiruzen clearly said to Danzo to fuck off after the Uchiha massacre and stripped him all of his powers
 

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I never noticed that Scene. Thanks for pointing it out. It comes down to perspective. Plus the Massacre was done by a single Uchiha who accepted the responsibility is all I'm saying.

Yes, the Third shouldn't have let Danzo fly free. But i just find it childish to blame it all on him... when it was the 2nd's policies that incited racism, the Kyuubi attack that resparked distrust... the forced Concentration camps that angered them, and itachi himself abandoned the cause of his people.

Also it was actually said in the Manga/Anime Danzo works without the Hokage being able to interfere. Maybe he set that system up before this incident and didn't see how powerless it'd leave him from stopping Danzo? But i do know that he works without conscent. And i know ROOT was still active, Danzo was never fully stripped of his power, and i doubt anyone thought ROOT was fully 'dead' either.

itachi isn't an idiot, he clearly knew that his people would stop at nothing short of being dead.

For the record i agree. The third dropped the ball with making Danzo head of ROOT.
 
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I never noticed that Scene. Thanks for pointing it out. It comes down to perspective. Plus the Masscre was done by a single Uchiha who accepted the responsibilty is all I'm saying.

Yes, the Third shouldn't have let Danzo fly free. But i just find it childish to blame it all on him... when it was the 2nd's policies that incited racism, the Kyuubi attack that resparked distrust... the forced Concentration camps that angered them, and itachi himself abandoned the cause of his people.

itachi isn't an idiot, he clearly knew that his people would stop at nothing short of being dead.

For the record i agree. The third dropped the ball with making Danzo head of ROOT. But Danzo didn't lose his power did he? He remained head of root all the way into his election as Hokage.
In the anime, Danzo was too involved in politics and was part of the Konoha council, and Hiruzen let him handle the shady deals of Konoha overall
After the Uchiha massacre, Hiruzen stripped him of his political power and ordered his Anbu troops to be disbanded

We also know Danzo was never open to negotiations with Uchiha, and attacked Shisui before him being able to use his jutsu on the Uchiha. The anime developed this part through Kakashi/Obito's flashbacks overall

I'm simply answering to the fact that Hiruzen couldn't stop Danzo when he clearly had the power
 

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No problem then. I never knew Danzo lost any power because he was still the head of root well into Shippuden. so i guess he was never really out of power is what i thought. He lost his title but never lost his political strength was the assumption.

Edit: The third had to get the other members of the Council to agree to kick him out i recall. The fire council worked on a majority rules type of persuasion. Danzo just grew impatient and sent Itachi to murder them without consent, as the case was still open (even though the fire council was leaning towards letting Danzo do something drastic anyway).

I think the elders sided with Danzo thinking he'd 'handle' the issue, not knowing what he was planning on doing exactly. They thought maybe kill a few head generals of the resistance or something. I don't think it was AFTER the massacre did they realize how twisted his 'solution' was and all voted him off the council officially.
 
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No problem then. I never knew Danzo lost any power because he was still the head of root well into Shippuden. so i guess he was never really out of power is what i thought. He lost his title but never lost his political strength was the assumption.
He did, after that he wasn't part of the Konoha council but still somehow kept his ANBU troops or some of them at least
As far as I understood from the anime, Danzo was commanding the ANBU (sent them to do missions), not just Root

Notice that even when he appeared in Shippuden, he didn't have any political power, most of the decisions were taken by Tsunade and the advisors (that's why he was planning to be a Hokage)
 

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@Itamacihi,
First I never said Third was the sole reason for Uchiha massacre, all I said was he was a pathetic leader which you agree.

Hiruzen didn't had the ball that Tsunade and Kakashi display to say fuk off you old noobs. And about your point of Uchiha backing off is indeed childlish. You are forgetting that they were suppress, and revolution is what they see as the solution. Itachi or Shisui betraying them was something that they were aware until the last moment. Remember Itachi never ever speak against the coup to any Uchiha. He was just playing his role as double agent, even though he wanted to stop uchiha he never open himself to any uchiha and let everyone believe that he was still on their side.

And you also forget that Tobi also help Itachi in the massacre which nobody except Itachi was aware of. Itachi himself agreed that even he cannot kill whole police force, and Uchiha also know that Itachi alone is not a threat.

As I said Hokage like Tobirama and Hiruzen are scums, while Hiruzen being more a pathetic leader.
 

Machi-tan

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Well we'll just agree to disagree.

Tobirama was a harsh leader. Granted. 3rd being pathetic? He made the best he had out of generations of Uchiha being pushed to hate the leaf.

Itachi and Shisui tried to stop their clan. They openly talked about it. And then they themselves go to the short summery that the Uchiha probably weren't savable... that not even Shisui's godlike Genjutsu would get them to chill out long enough for peace talks to take place, so Itachi saved the genjutsu to be used on Sasuke instead. That's what i was talking about. Itachi and Shisui wanted peace. They knew their people the best. Do you think if there was a way out Itachi and Shisui would go to Danzo for support in stopping their clan? They clearly had their backs against the wall when thinking about how to stop their clan.

And Again. You dodge the point that the Uchiha were getting ready to kill EVERYONE from the Senju, and probably start wars with clans that had nothing to do with them. How is that Childish?

If anything your mindset is childish. Yes, they were discriminated against, and it hurt their pride like no other. But for them to arrive at a murdering spree that would kill dozens of shinobi and their children is a gratified though process in your mind? They were going to do the same to the Senju as was done to them. Would you still be fine with the Uchiha if they ended up getting their way and gutting the Senju?

They stood on the verge of starting several wars that would probably escalate into a nation wide shinobi war. They knew it. Itachi knew it. Danzo knew it.

It's childish of them not to put their pride aside and not start would would potentially be a war that would end up with the leaf village as it stood, dead... Danzo in control of the 9 tails. And other villages attacking them for control of the 9 tails taking advantage of the Chaos?

You're so bent on justifying the Uchihas that you, like all the other Uchiha, didn't think through the fact that if they openly showed agression, chances are they would win. And that's the scary part. If the Uchiha succeeded in surprising the leaf, they would've killed the Senju. And the Hyuuga, Uzumaki, and other famous clans of the Leaf would fight them.

So you're trying to tell me that would've been a better resolution? That them being discriminated against would be worth killing off all senju and then possibly killing off 2 or 3 more clans before eventually being beaten?
 
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