Discussion Naruto vs. Bleach vs. One Piece Poll

[jorped]

what piss me of is that as people dont undestand the complexity of a manga than they say that the other is better.

i dont have any problem saying that i like more naruto than OP but i dont say that Naruto is better, cuz both are great. both have a ton of fans and both entertain alot the people that are reading it.

and what i dont like is seeing people giving stupid reasons for saying that OP is better like

" OP doesnt have holes "

when i read something like this it really piss me off, cuz people dont understand that the stage that Naruto is currently is in a much more advantage stage that One Piece is.

Naruto has much more behind it at this stage. One Piece has almost nothing.

And the only conclusion that i can take for this is that these people that give comments like this never read Naruto cuz if they did they would know that they cant compare OP and Naruto using that and that just piss me off.

 

[DLord.Van.Buuren]

and what i dont like is seeing people giving stupid reasons for saying that OP is better like

" OP doesnt have holes "

One Piece does have ''holes'' and a lot of them, all mangas have ''holes''.

OP doesn't have ''Plot Holes'' because the mangaka is smart and he doesn't troll character much like kubo does with bleach.

 

[jorped]

One Piece does have ''holes'' and a lot of them, all mangas have ''holes''.

OP doesn't have ''Plot Holes'' because the mangaka is smart and he doesn't troll character much like kubo does with bleach.

when i said holes i was talking about plot holes , sorry for my error.

but i dont agree with people comparing Naruto and OP using the fact that maybe naruto can have some plot holes or not cuz Naruto stage is much more advanced than OP one, probably OP isnt still at part 2 so we cant compare both. cuz Naruto as much more behind than OP does.

 

[juUnior]

Josl, good post there, really good.

The reason that the popularity of OP has risen so much is because of the non stop promoting from OPtards and the quality of the Manga.

So true.

Regarding planning. Everyone knows that Kubo only plans from chapter to chapter and I have read one interview with Kishi(correct me if I'm wrong) where he said that he doesn't know if naruto will be the Hogake at the end of his Manga

hmm, if we dwell into this than I rememebr interview where Kishi stated that he had whole story planned, from the beginning till the end, but while the series progresses he sometimes makes changes, either due to his own new idea, or because of the editors. I don't remember Oda to being harassed by editors, but by all means I'm not so much into it like into Naruto thingy, so I may be wrong.
BUT I agree on Kubo..

 

[Roflkopt3r]

Well, if Naruto will be Hokage or not is pretty independend from the actual plot actually. Even if he doesn't know that yet, it doesn't tell us anything about the planning of the plot (apart: It's Shonen, it has a guaranteed happy end x_X)

 

[GoldenMist]

i'm going with naruto, but after pain assault, i think naruto's episodes is full of fillers

but i still like it anyway.

 

[Zeltrax]

lol i am not going to go to the links you putted and see why OP is better than Naruto lol.

Cuz i read the 2 and seriously Naruto beats OP ( if it doesnt at least they will draw) . One Piece is much more childish, until now what was so great about OP that made him much better than Naruto ???? lol i dont know !!!!!

One Piece as i already said is much more childish, it hasnt not even close the history that naruto has behind it , and that is a fact , in 200 chapters of naruto i would know much more that i know with 600 chapters of OP , and that is not me saying, its almost a fact.

oda took 10 years to get until this point, and arcs like thriller bark and skypea were very boring.

you guys say like there is no mistakes in oda history!!!!!

and you know what i say ?????

lol of course there isnt , at least not much cuz OP story is much more simple than the Naruto one so it would be kinda riddiculous that if with a story like this Oda made lots of mistakes.

I think..what you just said is really offensive. Do you know why OP have such a huge fanbase? No, I can't say its the art. But I can tell you with confidence, that it's the story.
Either you don't read one piece at all or you dropped it some point or you just plainly don't see it.
I'll give you some examples, The Marineford arc and everything leading up to it, how every characters play a role and the death of whitebeard leads to a change in the era, changing a lot of things in the entire OP world for the next 2 years.
Another one, the slave trading at shanbondy, from there on and maybe even earlier on with the fishmen, one piece has gotten darker. It goes into deep waters and explore various story elements that we don't see in Naruto.

Now Oda is connecting the story back to the fishmen.
Something that Kishimoto never gotten to,
he introduced the 7 swordsmen of mist quite early in the story, but got to it during the war, and they are already dead but Oda is pulling an entire arc here about characters he introduced so many years back.

Like someone said, Naruto have a lot of potential. Kishimoto just never got to exploring them like Oda, or maybe he couldn't.

One Piece always managed to ties everything up and connect the characters into one big plot. I laugh when people call One Piece childish when it deals with matters like a corrupted government, slave trading, sad childhoods, killing of a crewmate, racism and pirates, actually being pirates.


That is what we call an adventure manga, that is why one piece sells.
Criticizing OP's plot is a big big mistake, sir.

really every one piece fan plz dont be partial , if you read Naruto plz compare both and what you are going to see is that what i am saying is a fact.

i love OP but i get that OP shouldnt having somany problems with if the fans like or not cuz oda still havent had those moments that can make people quit or like even more.

And about people dont like edo tensei, i think we still will have some explanation by how the hell did kabuto get all this summons.

What is better about OP????

as i already said it isnt the villains, it isnt about the main lead, cuz naruto is equal to luffy * ( deeper feelings), the message behind naruto is much bigger and it isnt a cliche as some plz say.
<hr noshade size="1">

Please, Naruto is not equal to luffy. I don't even know what you are comparing here. I can tell you something though, OP villains are better than Naruto's. The villains actually have development, and I'm not saying one or two, I'm talking about a lot here.
Whereas in Naruto, a organization as strong as Akatsuki got two of their members wiped out in a single arc (Hidan/Kakuza) I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but the villains have no development.
The only one I can think of is Tobi and Kabuto, but no, Tobi has been planning things from the start, so he doesn't have development.
Kabuto.
Only Kabuto? Yes, only kabuto. I ignore Sasuke, because instead of development, he turned into a character that almost every one hates.
What message are you talking about here?

 

[juUnior]

OP villains are better than Naruto's. The villains actually have development, and I'm not saying one or two, I'm talking about a lot here.
Whereas in Naruto, a organization as strong as Akatsuki got two of their members wiped out in a single arc (Hidan/Kakuza) I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but the villains have no development.

It depends whether a villain NEEDS a development, or not. You're just saying that a villain WIHTOUT any developments is worse.. just because. If Hidan and Kakuzu <referring to your example> had huge fanbase even though they haven't got any developments at all doesn't mean they were badly done. Also, usually villains serve to give development to other characters, which Naruto manga does in this example: Hidan was a primary source for Shikamaru's character development, maturity, whereas Kakuzu was a primary source for Naruto to dwell into "bridge" thingy <not to mention he served as a tool to show FRS in action >

I ignore Sasuke, because instead of development, he turned into a character that almost every one hates.

Ehh, just because Sasuke character is loved or hated by this or that ppl doesn't mean that its a bad written character. NO. It proves that the character is really were constructed if "its" <in this case: him> can give such diversity in opinion among the manga fans. So your statement about not having development on him because EVERYONE <where did you get this?> hate him is just some kind of.. you know. And no, he had a development, a serious one unlike many other characters.

 

[Zeltrax]

It depends whether a villain NEEDS a development, or not. You're just saying that a villain WIHTOUT any developments is worse.. just because. If Hidan and Kakuzu <referring to your example> had huge fanbase even though they haven't got any developments at all doesn't mean they were badly done. Also, usually villains serve to give development to other characters, which Naruto manga does in this example: Hidan was a primary source for Shikamaru's character development, maturity, whereas Kakuzu was a primary source for Naruto to dwell into "bridge" thingy <not to mention he served as a tool to show FRS in action >

No, No I'm not. I'm saying that One Piece have villains that have development and villains that have no development too(CP9) and like you said, serve as a tool, to show luffy in gear second.
But Naruto have most of their villains waste their potential when they have so much room for development.
If you're trying to say Hidan and Kakuzu are good cos they are dead, what about the various resurrected villains?
I'm pretty sure they have no development and is put there just for being the troops, but if you're fine with that, I guess it's your own opinion.
[/QUOTE]

Ehh, just because Sasuke character is loved or hated by this or that ppl doesn't mean that its a bad written character. NO. It proves that the character is really were constructed if "its" <in this case: him> can give such diversity in opinion among the manga fans. So your statement about not having development on him because EVERYONE <where did you get this?> hate him is just some kind of.. you know. And no, he had a development, a serious one unlike many other characters.

Yeah, I'm sorry for putting down Sasuke like that. Sasuke is well constructed, well constructed to be hate. I'm not sure about everyone but I've been there and done with the sasuke haters, they are alot and it takes some amount of writing to make him so hateful. So I'll give the manga credit for that.
Like you said "unlike many other characters", so why not?
Why isn't Neji, rock lee, tenten and other members given development? Instead they weren't doing anything in the manga most of the time.
In return, we get all kinds of development from Sasuke that makes many people who read it hates him.

I'm not in anyway criticizing Naruto or anything, I'm just against people who think One Piece plot is not superior to Naruto's.

 

[Newkerzy]

OP villains are worse than Naruto villains. The one thing that I like about Naruto villains is how "human" (except for Hidan and Kakuzu, LOL) they are. You actually FEEL for the villains. I can give you a LONG list of how great their character development were before their deaths. (man, Kisame was my favourite Akatsuki death) They're not just villains, simply beings with their own views and way of life. As for OP villains, they're really boring, if you ask me. We NEVER get any development from them. Their purpose is to only get beat up by the main character. THAT'S really boring.

As in "potential" you mean powers, right?? nope, no way. Skypiea and TB arc was really the worst EVER. Does Oda HAVE to prolong the fights even more than necessary?? Naruto villain's fights aren't too short and yet not too long. Just the right amount and they're all extremely well balanced. And I'm not talking about power levels. I'm talking about the length of their fights.

 

[Roflkopt3r]

For character developement:
Just to throw in a thought: is character developement a sign of quality for a Shonen? I mean, what age groups are OP/Naruto/Bleach aimed at? Would they still be able to aim at the same age group when they would contain deeper characters and more complex developements?

This might be a little weird insertion here, but perhaps it's a point worth to differentiate: How good is it to an older reader, and how good for the prime target audience?
Personally I see Naruto beeing most advanced in this field. It makes an effort to deliver a background to almost every important character. I think this makes it more interesting to older readers and more educational to younger ones.

@Newkerzy: I don't know the exact source, I guess a data book or something, but iirc Kakuzu and Hidan had a background added to them, or at least Kakuzu. He was send to kill the first Hokage, although everybody knew it was impossible, obviously failed, returned and was severely punished/imprisoned for his failure. Even though he was loyal to his village, he became angry about that, escaped and stole that secret jutsu which changed his body to this wire-stuff, to take revenge.
A generic background, but a piece of developement.

 

[ashher]

Well the way shonen mangas usually 'utilize' the 'potentials' of their villains is by giving them seperate arcs, which are basically short stories themselves, connected by some generic plot threads. After an arc is finished they are hardly relevant or remembered, or have any kind of impact over the next plots. If they are popular, they might reappear as allies or recurrent foes. Of course one or a few big boss will be there. In short this is a recepe for a plot driven work where characters are introduced and developed to make 'entertaining' plots. However since naruto is a character driven manga, meaning the point of the whole story is to show the evolution of one (or two) character, once a villain is met his influence can never be erased. It'll linger on the characters who have defeated/met them, and since this very change-of-character is the focus of naruto instead of any plotline...the impact of the villains are much higher. Their potential is not measured by how much plot he has delivered, but by how much influence he has left on the characters and readers. This may not mean much quantity of plot juiced out of the villains, but it means much quality to make it understandable how they affect the other characters (and readers). Orochimaru, the 'wasted' villain would be a good example to consider to understand what i'm saying. If one is to consider 'character development skill' the second one scores much higher, while the first would score higher in 'plot and thrill' department i think. Overall i'd say it takes a better writer to be able to write in the second way.

 

[benelori]

@ashher and jorped:
Calling a shonen manga which caters to young children "childish" seems wrong. I mean people read shonen manga with the primary reason being entertainment and fun. Sure if you can fit deep underlying themes then well and good but i dont believe that we can use this as a yardstick to call one manga better than the other. whats do you guys think??

Demographic certainly doesn't work here...because it is related to the publisher magazine, not manga content...just take Shigurui for example

 

[Roflkopt3r]

Demographic certainly doesn't work here...because it is related to the publisher magazine, not manga content...just take Shigurui for example

They all seem very Shonen by content and style, not only because they're published in Shonen magazines.
Very easy to understand form and simple storylines, rather simple characters, huge highlights on everything that could be surprising to avoid confusion. Childish protagonists. Colorful, fantasy, a lot of fighting (in a very unbloody way and with few casualties). The good side wins.

This applies to all three.

 

[ameya730]

Demographic certainly doesn't work here...because it is related to the publisher magazine, not manga content...just take Shigurui for example

i have not read Shigurui but from what i have seen on the net it does seem to be extreme for a shonen. at present it seems more like an exception rather than the rule. having said that i have seen fist of the north star which had pretty gruesome scenes and yet was considered a shonen.
i believe we are deviating from the original thread. so just to end it would like to add that you are right in the sense that a manga in shonen magazine need not be of a childish nature but generally that is how it has been. having said that i believe that mangas like OP, FMA, Naruto and Bakuman to name a few have improved not only the way shonen mangas are written but they have changed the audience for the better.

so i think sometime in the future we would be able to say thats is a deep, dark,philosophical and insightful shonen manga with awesome battle scenes and it would be a rule rather than an exception

 

[Newkerzy]

@Rofl: that Hidan-Kakuzu thing was actually a pun if you get my drift. I already know they were given a bit of background. It's true that we didn't get a bit of flashback about them like the others did, which is a bit of a shame. But I think we'll get some more development from Kakuzu in the war, like Sasori did. As a matter of fact, the only reason I support ET is because of the HUGE potential character development. Kishi is incredible when it comes to character development. Even Haku and Zabuza got a bit of development even after 500 chapters.

 

[juUnior]

If you're trying to say Hidan and Kakuzu are good cos they are dead, what about the various resurrected villains?
I'm pretty sure they have no development and is put there just for being the troops, but if you're fine with that, I guess it's your own opinion.

Without spoilers: yeah, you're probably right: they are put there just for being the more advanced enemy troops. Still, you're forgetting that in Kishi's view he put them to have more development from the other side, that is good guys. For someone it will be really lame, for someone really cool. I think it can't be judged objectively and it depends whether you like sth like that or not. Also, like Newkerzy spotted, some of the zombies will have further development, aka Haku&Zabuza or even Sasori.

Like you said "unlike many other characters", so why not?
Why isn't Neji, rock lee, tenten and other members given development? Instead they weren't doing anything in the manga most of the time.
In return, we get all kinds of development from Sasuke that makes many people who read it hates him.

Because their development ended or even wasn't supposed to be? Besides, Neji's development will occur in this war sooner or later - for Kishi it was only at this moment that Neji can have one <without spoilers you probably know what I mean>. And please, don't compare one of the main characters with one of the side characters having or not having developments ^^'

Also: there are ppl who hate Sasuke, and love Sasuke, and some in-between. Just look anywhere on Naruto forums and you will find this or that faction..

 

[Josl]

They're not just villains, simply beings with their own views and way of life. As for OP villains, they're really boring, if you ask me. We NEVER get any development from them. Their purpose is to only get beat up by the main character. THAT'S really boring.

What counts for you as development?
Let me rephrase the question. Is the following for you development or not?

A young pirate, let's call him crocodile dreams to be the pirate king. He travels the sea and makes a name for himself. He encounters Whitebeard and get's completely crushed. After the loss of an arm and a scar in his face he understands that there are powers far beyond his level and decides to give up on his dream. He tries to take over a country and find a legendary weapon but this plan fails because he encounters our heroes and gets beaten again. After that he finds himself once again completely crushed and doesn't even want to try again and so he ends up in Impel down. Then he hears about the war and thinks this is a good chance to kill whitebeard, the one who destroyed his dream. Our Hero on the quest to rescue his brother crosses his way again and they decide to team up to escape the prison. At the war he tries to kill whitebeard but fails. A lot of stuff happens during the war what I don't want to mention. After the war he finds the resolution to try it again. BTW his story isn't over yet

So is this development or not? So it's not never is it?
Let me ask you another question. Have you noticed the cover stories?
Usually Villains get a cover story where a lot is explained about them and those from the coverstorys come usually back to the story.
Want to bet that I can write something like the story above for nearly every OP villain?
I will give you a list of characters that either got or will get their development later and this includes a circle development like the one from Wapol.
So out of the Head: Hellmeppo,Gin,Kuro,Jango,Fullmetal,Buggy(??might be discussion worthy),Hatchi,Arlong,whole Baroque works especially Mr3,2 and 0, CP9, Enel, Hancock,Moria and all the villains to come.
That's for me a lot more than Naruto even has.

As in "potential" you mean powers, right?? nope, no way. Skypiea and TB arc was really the worst EVER. Does Oda HAVE to prolong the fights even more than necessary?? Naruto villain's fights aren't too short and yet not too long. Just the right amount and they're all extremely well balanced. And I'm not talking about power levels. I'm talking about the length of their fights.

First of all. One Problem that OP has is sometimes the pacing and I don't mean the chapter pacing (which is always filled with a lot of stuff) but the story pacing. You are right, in those two arcs the boss fights got longer than they actually needed to be. BUT yes they needed to be long because the Author tried to build tension. He ends his fights always with a bang and in both arcs, especially during the skypia arc you could feel the helplessness of the characters, the wish for peace which was symbolized by the bell. I don't remember anymore when an arc was properly built up in Naruto. Maybe the pain arc but I shouldn't even start about that arc. However I never felt anything, no emotions at all during the Danzo fight because of the lack of proper built up.

Second of all. I don't know what he means with "potential" but I mean potential. The potential of the Villains is WASTED. Which basically means the characters themselves are wasted? One example would be again Danzo. So much potential for storylines but none of them used.
Another example would be Kisame. Can you show me a page that is supposed to make me hate him? I mean he captured some tailed beast with whom I as a reader have no emotional connection with. What else has he done? Stolen Information? Fought Bee? Maybe I have forgotten something. Could have happened. I like Kisame as a character. Villains are supposed to be hated. You are supposed to celebrate the fist in their face, their death or defeat.For me Kisame is the perfect example of a villian who is there just to get beaten up.

How good is it to an older reader, and how good for the prime target audience?
Personally I see Naruto beeing most advanced in this field. It makes an effort to deliver a background to almost every important character. I think this makes it more interesting to older readers and more educational to younger ones.

And once again I'm posting THIS link:
top-10-manga-of-2009-demographic-breakdown
Like you can see in every age group OP leads by far.
The reasons are many but one of the reasons that you stated:

It makes an effort to deliver a background to almost every important character.

Is done in OP excellent

Others but not limited:

One Piece looks like it’s drawn for 10 years olds, so it’s striking how dark it actually is.Water 7 contains murder, summary execution, alcoholism, attempted suicide, conspiracy, child soldiers, war crimes, thought crime, forged evidence, show trials, torture (both physical and mental) and potential genocide.

Oda never focuses on the true depths of the darkness, or wallow in it. But it’s in the frame the whole time. Ten year old kids may not see it, because they’re not looking for it. But those who are more mature can see what’s really going on. I think this also contributes to One Piece’s popularity with older audiences. Like a Pixar film, it’s fun for kids, but there’s a larger story for adults to see as well.

 

[Roflkopt3r]

And once again I'm posting THIS link:
top-10-manga-of-2009-demographic-breakdown
Like you can see in every age group OP leads by far.

Everyone knows that (and the bottom link isn't working), but that's still not necessarily related to quality, which is what this thread is about.

If it only was about popularity and if there was a consensus that popularity equals quality, then this thread would've been over right after the opening post and there wouldn't be a reason for a discussion.

 

[Josl]

Everyone knows that (and the bottom link isn't working), but that's still not necessarily related to quality, which is what this thread is about.

If it only was about popularity and if there was a consensus that popularity equals quality, then this thread would've been over right after the opening post and there wouldn't be a reason for a discussion.

Sorry I don't understand. Your argument was that Naruto has more appeal to older readers than OP. I gave you the statistically fact that this isn't true and also gave other reasons to why this is the case. And in all honesty I don't think that you can compare two manga of whom you didn't read one.