Final Natsu vs. Suzaku

[Ramen]

Y'all are acting like Natsu can go into his DF from the beginning.....which he can't.

Suzaku wipes the floor with Natsu and any mage from Ishgar as of right now.

 

[atlantisreturns]

Naw , Natsu wasn't serious against Suzaku. It's been canonically mentioned that he doesn't use Dragon Force unless he deems someone absolutely irredeemable. Suzaku is a good guy at heart. He wanted to beat his ass for hurting Erza , not kill him. If he was serious , he would've gone Dragon Force right at the beginning before charging towards Suzaku. It doesn't take him time to go into DF when he can activate it , we've seen it against Zeref as well as Aldoron. He can do it instantly. The only difference being , during Alvarez arc he needed a lot of POF to activate it , now he doesn't. And to top that , him going into DF also allows him to overpower his wounds apparently , he had gotten KOed when he got skewered by Aldoron's thicket but after going DF he can still fight despite all those wounds.

Suzaku would've probably won if his feat against Selene had been legit , cause that would mean he could land multiple hits on Natsu enough to kill him before Natsu can even react or think. But as of now he can't , the speed he has shown is not enough to prevent Natsu from instantaneously going into DF. Even if one of his hits land , Natsu can just overpower it by transforming into DF.

 

[Seven777]

Nerfed Aldo attacked Base Natsu, Natsu dodged. Nerfed Aldo hit Natsu several times, Natsu tanked it. Natsu even landed a hit on nerfed Aldo,
Suzaku on the other hand? Blitzed Natsu and oneshot him. The feats are in, Nerfed Aldo is weaker than Suzaku.

 

[Raven]

I don’t see any reason why Natsu wouldn’t start the fight in his DF form, He faced Sazaku in canon and lost in base, however, This fight he should start it in his DF form right off the bat unless you want to apply CiS to Natsu and let him get oneshotted in base again.

Natsu wins

 

[grey matter]

Sure , but the comparison here is to DF Natsu , so Suzaku doing that to a Selene with her guard down doesn't really mean anything when Natsu has fought Aldo in an actual fight.

We don't know that though. If Dimaria told her opponent that she's going to stop time and attack then the opponent could be ready for her , then I doubt she could easily slice like that. It's the opposite , her magic revolves around surprise tactics and oneshotting. The opponent doesn't know what is coming.


We don't know that. Firstly , the thing Natsu fought was different from a human form , it was sort of Aldo's brain as he himself put it. Contrary to what Irene said about her dragon form increasing her power , Aldoron on the other hand outright told Natsu that he was mistaken about his power decreasing in the seed he was fighting. This is further implied when Gajeel fighting Aldo distracted the god seed for Natsu to land a hit on him. Secondly , even in the scenario the God Seed somehow doesn't command Aldo's power , we have another statement from the seed which said Dragon Aldoron's power can revive the god seeds , which means defeating God Seed doesn't really mean Aldoron is defeated. Thirdly , even discarding all of this , Natsu blew the hole in Dragon Aldoron BEFORE he defeated the God Seed. Look at the panels , god seed didn't die until 3 pages later.

Natsu wins all angles considered.

Oh, it was just a response to you saying that what Suzaku did wasn't a feat. It's still impossible for anyone else who's not an Acno tier in the series except DF Natsu and those who scale to/above Suzaku (like George and other black knights by hype).
DF Natsu fought a severely nerfed Aldo though (from 4/5th of his seeds out), and Aldo woke up nerfed to begin with

I disagree.
She can stop time, and has all the time in the world to find a weak spot. You can brace/prepare for an attack all you want, but because it's always with an expectation, there will always be blind spots. Every attack from Diamria would be an off guard attack if she attacks at the right spot.
Anyway, that's off topic, but we can discuss it if you'd like

It's highly unlikely for human Aldo to have same stats because of the sheer size difference, for instance physical strength and dura should be much higher for dragon Aldo.
And even if we're to take human Aldo's (or brain) statement at face value, and assume he has the exact same stats. Then that means DF Natsu's final attack is 20 million times as powerful (assuming Aldo got nerfed to 20% from seeds going down) as a charged Demo fist? I find it ridiculous to believe.
Yes, dragon Aldo can revive the God seeds. But for that, he likely needs the brain or at least one God seed still alive. They are all linked.
Natsu's purgatory attack already landed and destroyed Aldo seed. What we saw over those 3 pages was the last moments of Aldo, a specter speaking. I think it's no coincidence that dragon Aldo got destroyed the same time human Aldo got destroyed, they're linked IMO

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 14, 2021 ---

Nerfed Aldo attacked Base Natsu, Natsu dodged. Nerfed Aldo hit Natsu several times, Natsu tanked it. Natsu even landed a hit on nerfed Aldo,
Suzaku on the other hand? Blitzed Natsu and oneshot him. The feats are in, Nerfed Aldo is weaker than Suzaku.

Actually this is so true.

Why are we assuming by default that nerfed human Aldo > Suzaku?

Nerfed Aldo used one of his strongest spells on base Natsu - he dodged some, tanked some. It was only until many such attacks that base Natsu actually went down.

While Suzaku causally one shot base Natsu

 

[Brandish μ]

So, nerfed Aldo is not as strong/good at fighting as Suzaku, who is definitely inferior to Georg, who is currently swatted dead by Selene.

The last chapter is proof that Suzaku was plot enhanced all along. Defeating Natsu and Erza like that shows he's not to be trifled with - yet, it was needed to make Selene's plot believable for a moment.

Georg was killed instantly by serious Selene, and plot yet again spared Suzaku who was in complete shock after seeing his GM, the superior dragon slayer, utterly oneshotted. The plot might even allow Suzaku to get stronger, because his ability is kinda relevant.

So I guess, with all things considered, with how skewed Suzaku's feats are by plot, I should look at this fight from the lens of plot enhancement.

Plotsu vs Plotzaku.

If plot demands it, who in this series is stronger?

Natsu. The King.

If the above is not sensible, then yea, DF Natsu is more impressive, so Natsu wins. The fight wouldn't be much different to Natsu vs Laxus.

Natsu wins.

 

[grey matter]

So, nerfed Aldo is not as strong/good at fighting as Suzaku, who is definitely inferior to Georg, who is currently swatted dead by Selene.

The last chapter is proof that Suzaku was plot enhanced all along. Defeating Natsu and Erza like that shows he's not to be trifled with - yet, it was needed to make Selene's plot believable for a moment.

Georg was killed instantly by serious Selene, and plot yet again spared Suzaku who was in complete shock after seeing his GM, the superior dragon slayer, utterly oneshotted. The plot might even allow Suzaku to get stronger, because his ability is kinda relevant.

So I guess, with all things considered, with how skewed Suzaku's feats are by plot, I should look at this fight from the lens of plot enhancement.

Plotsu vs Plotzaku.

If plot demands it, who in this series is stronger?

Natsu. The King.

If the above is not sensible, then yea, DF Natsu is more impressive, so Natsu wins. The fight wouldn't be much different to Natsu vs Laxus.

Natsu wins.

I kinda understand what you're saying. There are contradictions and/or things that seem ridiculous in the manga, cause Mashima gives zero fucks and couldn't care less.

But if we use that logic, the entire tournament is pointless, if all we need is plot to justify everything we want. By plot, Natsu > Acno and Ignia too since nothing can beat him

Suzaku didn't have POF or hax or any BS to one shot Natsu. He simply blitz and one shot him with pure power, as simple as that.
If something as clear as this is to be ignored and thrown aside because of plot, everything is pointless

Selene did it in dragon form. Dragon Selene >> human Selene
Erza held her own against human Eileen. She was definitely more than "20% human Eileen" (IMHO Erza was like 70% human Eileen in combat stats), but got one instantly shot by dragon Eileen in a similar fashion George did. Boosts of Eileen and Selene going to dragon form is comparable, since they're both dragons in their "natural" state
I wouldn't have been surprised to see Suzaku get one shot by dragon Selene even if the feat was legit and wasn't an act.

Aldo was severely nerfed, on top of waking up nerfed to begin with.
He's at < 20% his full power
I don't see the issue with Suzaku being above 20% human DG level. If he's not even that level, then there is no point to dragon eaters being in the series. Their point is to get the top tier good guys (Gildarts/Laxus/Jellal/Erza) to a level where they aren't completely useless against DGs, at least in their human form

 

[Tirl]

Suzaku didn't have POF

He literally said he was avenging his guild. This is PoF.

I don't want to argue about anything here, Nemispelled already said everything. Just wanted to point that one thing

 

[atlantisreturns]

Oh, it was just a response to you saying that what Suzaku did wasn't a feat. It's still impossible for anyone else who's not an Acno tier in the series except DF Natsu and those who scale to/above Suzaku (like George and other black knights by hype).
DF Natsu fought a severely nerfed Aldo though (from 4/5th of his seeds out), and Aldo woke up nerfed to begin with

I disagree.
She can stop time, and has all the time in the world to find a weak spot. You can brace/prepare for an attack all you want, but because it's always with an expectation, there will always be blind spots. Every attack from Diamria would be an off guard attack if she attacks at the right spot.
Anyway, that's off topic, but we can discuss it if you'd like

It's highly unlikely for human Aldo to have same stats because of the sheer size difference, for instance physical strength and dura should be much higher for dragon Aldo.
And even if we're to take human Aldo's (or brain) statement at face value, and assume he has the exact same stats. Then that means DF Natsu's final attack is 20 million times as powerful (assuming Aldo got nerfed to 20% from seeds going down) as a charged Demo fist? I find it ridiculous to believe.
Yes, dragon Aldo can revive the God seeds. But for that, he likely needs the brain or at least one God seed still alive. They are all linked.
Natsu's purgatory attack already landed and destroyed Aldo seed. What we saw over those 3 pages was the last moments of Aldo, a specter speaking. I think it's no coincidence that dragon Aldo got destroyed the same time human Aldo got destroyed, they're linked IMO

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 14, 2021 ---

Actually this is so true.

Why are we assuming by default that nerfed human Aldo > Suzaku?

Nerfed Aldo used one of his strongest spells on base Natsu - he dodged some, tanked some. It was only until many such attacks that base Natsu actually went down.

While Suzaku causally one shot base Natsu

I am just considering all scenarios to specifically point out that regardless of what we consider Natsu wins. Whether Aldo's brain did contain all of Aldo's power or not , doesn't matter.

If Aldo's brain holds all of Aldo's power ? Well Natsu already destroyed him.

Aldo's brain merely draws power from Dragon Aldoron like the remaining seeds ? Natsu blew the hole through Dragon Aldoron , the original one who holds all the power. Natsu did the damage to equivalent of Dragon Aldoron in both cases.

Dragon Aldo can revive the god seeds cause he has power left within him to do so. As far as my stance on it is concerned , this statement itself disproves the notion that the god seeds held a significant portion of Aldoron's power. They didn't , cause Dragon Aldo has the power to revive all of them , and the seeds aren't even equally strong. Wolfen seed ( which was never defeated for that matter ) is leagues stronger than Metro and Gears , which are in turn tier above Doom which is literal fodder. If these equally affect Aldoron , then Aldoron is a literal joke and the story makes no sense. You know what makes more sense ? That the god seeds only draw power from Dragon Aldoron as their source and that they don't really share Aldo's power within themselves equally. So Dragon Aldoron should still have all the main power. He could use magic on Gajeel as well as all of FT while in his Dragon Form with the stalactite shaped wood on Gajeel and the thicket on remaining of FT. Aldo still holds the power. So Natsu ripping the hole through Dragon Aldo is a feat against his Dragon Form.

But even excluding my stance on it , even if Aldo's brain held all of Aldo's power , it doesn't matter , cause size means nothing if you have all the power. In Irene's case she specifically stated that going into Dragon Form increases her power level. Aldo outright gave us a statement stating the contrary , implying no increase of power level. Why should we believe his stats increased in Dragon form then ?

Again , reminder that Wolfen seed never went down. Only Metro , Gears and Doom were defeated.

No , Aldo's brain wasn't dead by then. Natsu could hear him pretty well and even responded. The hole blew in Dragon Aldoron before the brain died , so Natsu pretty much legit blew the hole in his Dragon form.

As for DF Natsu being millions of times stronger than normal Natsu , it is very much normal. Natsu is the MC. He is the one who is going to face Ignia , and we are 3 arcs in already into the story. If he isn't even at the level of a nerfed DG yet then how is he going to even remotely compare with Ignia ? There's not much time left now. In fact Natsu should've been at this level in the Alvarez arc already , we are late due to the garbage writing in the last arc. If you look at other series the MC being this strong is normal.

 

[Ramen]

Ah yes, let's call plot when our favourite characters get destroyed lmao.

 

[Biri Biri]

As for DF Natsu being millions of times stronger than normal Natsu , it is very much normal. Natsu is the MC. He is the one who is going to face Ignia , and we are 3 arcs in already into the story. If he isn't even at the level of a nerfed DG yet then how is he going to even remotely compare with Ignia ? There's not much time left now. In fact Natsu should've been at this level in the Alvarez arc already , we are late due to the garbage writing in the last arc. If you look at other series the MC being this strong is normal.

It's back. NATSU PRIME MILLION HAS RETURNED!1!!11

We should take into account that DF Natsu managed to defeat god seed Aldoron after it was weakened by the losses of all the other fellow god seeds. Natsu couldn't anticipate or react to his attacks at the beginning.

Spoiler

After the destruction of the other god seeds however, Natsu could react to the speed of his attacks and match him in terms of close quarter combat speed.

Spoiler

Even discounting the fact that Aldoron's god seeds are tied to his power and defeating them weakened him to the point where DF Natsu could finish him off, Mercphobia reveals Aldo was only at half power even at his peak during that fight since he was still in the midst of waking up after an extremely long slumber and didn't have time to bring forth his full power to bear.

Spoiler

In context, DF Natsu required two factors to beat god seed Aldo.

• God seed Aldo unable to access his original power because he did not awaken completely hence couldn't fight at full strength
• The destruction of all the other god seeds to weaken him

On the other hand, we have witnessed how effortlessly Suzaku beat Natsu. Nothing matters to Natsu more than his guildmates and nakama. He fought Aldo with a cheeky grin on his face most of the time. In his battle with Suzaku however, Natsu was enraged after Suzaku cut down Erza and left her in a bloody heap of mess. Yet he failed to react to his attack.

Spoiler

In addition this was a fully fresh Natsu. The Natsu that fought god seed Aldo was exhausted after being in successive battles against Gajeel, Wraith + Makarov, and then Faris. Suzaku's performance against Natsu was more impressive than god seed Aldo even before the other god seeds were destroyed. Suzaku then managed to cut Selene before she started her ruse. I understand that everything that happened from that point onwards was Selene putting on an act. However, I think Suzaku deserves some benefit of the doubt too since so far nothing that has thrown at him has been able to put him down. So you gotta ask yourself if DF Natsu could defeat god seed Aldo if he hadn't stayed dormant for too long and had his full power intact. Because Suzaku is at that level of strength.

 

[atlantisreturns]

It's back. NATSU PRIME MILLION HAS RETURNED!1!!11

We should take into account that DF Natsu managed to defeat god seed Aldoron after it was weakened by the losses of all the other fellow god seeds. Natsu couldn't anticipate or react to his attacks at the beginning.

Spoiler

After the destruction of the other god seeds however, Natsu could react to the speed of his attacks and match him in terms of close quarter combat speed.

Spoiler

Even discounting the fact that Aldoron's god seeds are tied to his power and defeating them weakened him to the point where DF Natsu could finish him off, Mercphobia reveals Aldo was only at half power even at his peak during that fight since he was still in the midst of waking up after an extremely long slumber and didn't have time to bring forth his full power to bear.

Spoiler

In context, DF Natsu required two factors to beat god seed Aldo.

• God seed Aldo unable to access his original power because he did not awaken completely hence couldn't fight at full strength
• The destruction of all the other god seeds to weaken him

On the other hand, we have witnessed how effortlessly Suzaku beat Natsu. Nothing matters to Natsu more than his guildmates and nakama. He fought Aldo with a cheeky grin on his face most of the time. In his battle with Suzaku however, Natsu was enraged after Suzaku cut down Erza and left her in a bloody heap of mess. Yet he failed to react to his attack.

Spoiler

In addition this was a fully fresh Natsu. The Natsu that fought god seed Aldo was exhausted after being in successive battles against Gajeel, Wraith + Makarov, and then Faris. Suzaku's performance against Natsu was more impressive than god seed Aldo even before the other god seeds were destroyed. Suzaku then managed to cut Selene before she started her ruse. I understand that everything that happened from that point onwards was Selene putting on an act. However, I think Suzaku deserves some benefit of the doubt too since so far nothing that has thrown at him has been able to put him down. So you gotta ask yourself if DF Natsu could defeat god seed Aldo if he hadn't stayed dormant for too long and had his full power intact. Because Suzaku is at that level of strength.

I mean I have no idea what happened here , I only recently caught up with Fairy Tail again. This Prime One Million seems like sort of an inside thing. Regardless if you're talking about the absurdity of the million figure , I just chalked it up to Mashima not knowing Maths. It only took a continent's worth of magic to seal Acnologia who was amped up by RoT , so doesn't logically make sense for Aldoron to be 100M times stronger than Natsu. It is fiction regardless , if Mashima wants Aldo to be that much stronger then he could be. There are a lot dumber things out there which surpass the limits of stupidity , especially if you consider comics. If it's just a hyperbole , doesn't matter , the point here is to scale Natsu to nerfed Dragon Aldo and thus above Suzaku. I didn't put much emphasis on the million thing.

As for Natsu managing to match Aldo's brain , Aldo was getting distracted by his body being attacked by Gajeel on the outside. It's effects are directly shown. And the brain was playing around until it got too late. Natsu couldn't even perceive his attacks as compared to Suzaku whom Erza could react to. The brain wanted to gloat over Natsu by breaking him slowly as compared to finishing him off fast. Suzaku was getting overwhelmed by Selene and couldn't even come close to her , let alone land a hit. Even the cut on her face was cause Selene was caught off guard due to Suzaku uttering the Kurnugi name.

 

[Static]

I mean I have no idea what happened here , I only recently caught up with Fairy Tail again. This Prime One Million seems like sort of an inside thing. Regardless if you're talking about the absurdity of the million figure , I just chalked it up to Mashima not knowing Maths. It only took a continent's worth of magic to seal Acnologia who was amped up by RoT , so doesn't logically make sense for Aldoron to be 100M times stronger than Natsu. It is fiction regardless , if Mashima wants Aldo to be that much stronger then he could be. There are a lot dumber things out there which surpass the limits of stupidity , especially if you consider comics. If it's just a hyperbole , doesn't matter , the point here is to scale Natsu to nerfed Dragon Aldo and thus above Suzaku. I didn't put much emphasis on the million thing.

As for Natsu managing to match Aldo's brain , Aldo was getting distracted by his body being attacked by Gajeel on the outside. It's effects are directly shown. And the brain was playing around until it got too late. Natsu couldn't even perceive his attacks as compared to Suzaku whom Erza could react to. The brain wanted to gloat over Natsu by breaking him slowly as compared to finishing him off fast. Suzaku was getting overwhelmed by Selene and couldn't even come close to her , let alone land a hit. Even the cut on her face was cause Selene was caught off guard due to Suzaku uttering the Kurnugi name.

The Prime One Million is a superman reference, one of his forms.

 

[atlantisreturns]

The Prime One Million is a superman reference, one of his forms.

Yeah I know that , but this Natsu One Million makes it seem like something related to this topic has happened here before , that's all.

 

[Orphan Prince]

To be fair, neither Dragon God was taking either of them seriously. Aldoron was underestimating Natsu from the start while Selene was simply playing around, the only time Suzaku actually landed a (non-deliberate) hit on Selene was when was when he said Kurnugi's name and began using his style, this greatly surprised Selene as Kurnugi was her child, and Suzaku cut her cheek while her guard was down.

Spoiler: Suzaku cutting Selene's cheek

Not to mention, Selene seems to be much faster than Suzaku as she can easily dodge him, Suzaku was likely going as fast as he could as he seemed greatly shocked that she managed to dodge his strike.

Spoiler: Selene dodging

As we now know, Kurnugi is Selene's child, he wasn't a good son according to her, but she still loved him, thus, the look of surprise on her face when her cheek was cut was most likely because Suzaku said her deceased child's name rather than him actually cutting her, and this was the only time Suzaku actually hit her when she didn't allow him to do so.

It also seems that Suzaku doesn't have the power to go against non Dragon God tier Dragons, as Selene called Suzaku out, she found it hard to believe that he was powerful enough to slay Kurnugi, which Suzaku confirmed, stating that a "True Dragon Eater" killed him.

Spoiler: Selene calling Suzaku out

From rereading the fight, it seems like Suzaku didn't get not one more strike on Selene after he cut her cheek, all he did was tank casual spells from her, we also know that she was likely holding back rather significantly as she downright laughed at the thought of a Human defeating her.

Spoiler: Selene laughing at Suzaku

So, I highly doubt Selene was using anywhere close to her full power in that fight against Suzaku, and even then, he only hit her twice, the first one was because of her surprise at Kurnugi's name being brought up, and the second was deliberate, meanwhile, DF Natsu actually landed real hits against an on guard Aldoron.

 

[Axiomus]

DF Natsu's new secret art is indeed millions of times stronger than a regular FDK Destruction Fist. It has to be. Even if you nerf Aldoron's health by 99% and leave him with only 1%, he's still got 1,000,000 points. That's what happens when you work with a number as large as 100,000,000. Even without thinking about math, it's pretty reasonable to assume that an attack that can vaporize Aldoron's seed and blast a city-sized hole in the dragon form's back can also take out Suzaku.

Suzaku still wins this though, because he can just oneshot Natsu before he enters DF. We've already seen this happen too. Natsu only stands a chance if he starts out in DF. Which he doesn't.

 

[Raven]

DF Natsu's new secret art is indeed millions of times stronger than a regular FDK Destruction Fist. It has to be. Even if you nerf Aldoron's health by 99% and leave him with only 1%, he's still got 1,000,000 points. That's what happens when you work with a number as large as 100,000,000. Even without thinking about math, it's pretty reasonable to assume that an attack that can vaporize Aldoron's seed and blast a city-sized hole in the dragon form's back can also take out Suzaku.

Suzaku still wins this though, because he can just oneshot Natsu before he enters DF. We've already seen this happen too. Natsu only stands a chance if he starts out in DF. Which he doesn't.

Why he doesn’t? You don’t think Natsu can use DF at will?

 

[Axiomus]

Why he doesn’t? You don’t think Natsu can use DF at will?

Natsu can, but it still takes time. Suzaku is too fast.

 

[Raven]

Natsu can, but it still takes time. Suzaku is too fast.

You mean Natsu won’t react to Suzaku speed even in DF or it would take time for Natsu to get into DF?
Natsu can tap into DF just like that, There is no timing to it.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 15, 2021 ---

If DF Natsu is durable and fast as base Natsu then yeah I’d agree that Suzaku can be land an attack faster than Natsu even in DF. Because at this point DF would just boost Natsu’s attacks only.

 

[Jko]

Natsu wins. He was not resolved when he fought Suzaku and got one upoed just like he did againat Gajeel, Madmole, Wraith and Hakune.

Natsu once serious rolfstomps Suzaku into the ground. He jobbed against him just like he jobbed in a lot of fights in the 100YQ. Hell 50% of his battles have been in jobbing and then coming back to mop the floor with his opponets. Secondly Natsu does not need PoF to use DF. He never did. Once you can activate it without the need of an external boost, you can do it freely. He rarely uses the form bcs he does not need it against anyone but Top/God tiers.

Suzaku is not doing jack squat to Aldo or his main body. He couldn't even touch Selene in a casual state while Natsu went toe to toe with at least 50% Aldo. 50% Aldo >>>>>>> Casual Selene.

Natsu wins fairly easily. He actually gets nerfed half the time in the manga just so he doesn't fold lower threats like the DG, FT, and every other non God tier entity. The dude had trouble with likes of Gajeel while in Base yet that same base form was going blow to blow with Aldo.

Natsu has consistently put on DG level throughout the 100YQ while Suzaku has not and instead has actually been proven to be fodder to them ergo he is fodder to Natsu.