As it is SS has as much probability of succeding as a SK of getting to the end, the only difference is that he cannot be targetted by the mafia at night.
Depends. They can suggest a lot of new things and bring up many things to talk about and give their thoughts, but I really don't think they can help much with balance, for which you need people who hosted many times and know what's too crazy or too insignificant. Or with rules related things.
She got voted out because she had 0 credibility She could've won it because she was lucky and never got targeted by the mafia, but didn't do enough at the day phases. Besides, letting you and Cres alive that game who are pretty much confirmed, and instead killing Gryff who could've been framed was a bad call...
So that's a bad example. SK may be the weakest, but only by little if at all, and he's also the simplest and most straight forward.
Santa can be blocked and need to survive even more nights, only 1 block is already huge detriment. Mentor and lovers are 2 people, but also die together, meaning twice as likely for them to die unlike the SK/Santa.
Nevermind the super narrow margin of errors, if you consider that generally, win conditions are determined by day phases instead of night phases, the win condition of TP too is hard to reliably achieve.
Uhm, if I knew there's a character that can redirect actions ingame I would get quite paranoid, maybe it sounds worse than it is in reality but...
In contrast making that Flutist capable of making his targets "sleep" in some way sounds appealing.
Unless you completely stop acting when you're dealt doc or det before knowing your sanity, I don't think this holds. Perhaps information about being redirected could be useful... But 'I would get paranoid' doesn't seem like a useful way to dismiss the gameplay concern.
Unless you completely stop acting when you're dealt doc or det before knowing your sanity, I don't think this holds. Perhaps information about being redirected could be useful... But 'I would get paranoid' doesn't seem like a useful way to dismiss the gameplay concern.
I didn't say it sounds more appealing than anything else, just that the idea of the flute affecting its targets in some way is nice.
As for the redirecting thing... you dont have to go to a det or a docs case, but anything that involves night action. I simply dont like the idea, its chaos for the sake of chaos.
When there's a BK... well sure that a redirect could happen at some time but the odds are very low, even more so when the roulette involves 5 people. Thats why BK is such a wild card, but doesn't really breaks the game design.
Now if you put a role that can actually redirect actions at will... As host I wouldn't like to see how Night Action Strategy (part of the meat of the game) is ruined because "Heh, funny redirect". And as player I wouldn't like to know that my action/result can't actually be trusted if I happen to be a juicy target for the Redirecting agent, its a mess.
These are just my two cents though, people might like it.
Unless you completely stop acting when you're dealt doc or det before knowing your sanity, I don't think this holds. Perhaps information about being redirected could be useful... But 'I would get paranoid' doesn't seem like a useful way to dismiss the gameplay concern.
I didn't say it sounds more appealing than anything else, just that the idea of the flute affecting its targets in some way is nice.
As for the redirecting thing... you dont have to go to a det or a docs case, but anything that involves night action. I simply dont like the idea, its chaos for the sake of chaos.
When there's a BK... well sure that a redirect could happen at some time but the odds are very low, even more so when the roulette involves 5 people. Thats why BK is such a wild card, but doesn't really breaks the game design.
Now if you put a role that can actually redirect actions at will... As host I wouldn't like to see how Night Action Strategy (part of the meat of the game) is ruined because "Heh, funny redirect". And as player I wouldn't like to know that my action/result can't actually be trusted if I happen to be a juicy target for the Redirecting agent, its a mess.
These are just my two cents though, people might like it.
Ano.. we used to have a Hypnotist role in the game, in role list too, who could redirect every night. Needless to say it got removed quite quickly After 1 or so games. Pretty obvious why.
The doc/det was about their sanity; 'I could be insane I shouldn't do anything', could be argued by someone dealt doc, and then not move. Difference between what I think Hypno is and the suggested role is the win condition and tp aspect
@GrySun Alright, I made some changes to the Mafia Doc and totally changed the Ninja role into a new one that should make more sense.
Simple to the point. Just a one role.
However with the totally changed Ninja role, which also got a new name, I thought why not make a doc where Mafia can't be sure about sanity like Townies, though "naive" doesn't really work for Mafia so I went with alcohol levels. xD
Watch here:
I got the idea of 3 Mafia Doc types (the useless one for those kinda hosts who wanna troll somebody they would have just given "Mafia Member" to feel more useful) because of the Townie Night Killing role I got in plan, after all a Mafia Doc only makes sense if there are at least 3 ways to get killed at night since 1 will belong to the Mafia Doctor Mafia group. Ofc no Doc can protect and kill at the same time, only one action, maybe that should be added to it to clear things up.
Anyway, onto the Townie role I suggest called BOUNTY HUNTER!
The Idea is that unlike Ninja, who was confusing with hiding and killing, we get a straight townie killing role! However such a role could prove counterproductive to townies so how make sure such a role doesn't kill townies and even if can still help townie if doing so? The Idea of mine was a 2nd Role like Voter Disease in this case called Bounty. The idea of Bounties is that votes are precious, so you don't just wanna give it away right away, so if nobody gives a vote away the BH is just a normal townie. HOWEVER!
Mafia would love for a BH to kill somebody with the cost of just one vote, right? At the same time them putting votes on people could call forth suspicion so Mafia will try to be careful not to be too obvious they want BH to kill people with important townie roles. But no way they can pass that up, right? Same with townies like dets, who got a guilty and innocent find but don't want to reveal too soon because they are afraid they will get blocked or killed by mafia turning useless. This way they pick a target put votes on it and sooner or later the BH will kill it, he doesn't have to, but he probably will if the bounty is big enough. Which gets me to my next point, double lynching is nice but difficult with a BH the townie can avoid that, they can lynch one and make the BH kill the other by having some townies put a bounty on the (obvious?) mafia. Ofc same could Mafia do if they are smart enough to frame some suspect townies and make sure townies put bounties on townies making them suspects again.
In the end it is up to the BH to decide if he wants to kill or not. After all a BH is greedy, it might be better to wait a couple days till bounties are big enough to reap in the reward. If a Bounty has like 5 votes, that means 5 extra votes for a Townie role who can freely use it in a single day and depending on the people left turn him into a single majority vote if he puts all his votes on one target! That is a way for townies to ensure some of their votes stay in-game and in use of a clear townie role even after their deaths. Ofc we all know a BH might get wrong with it and he surely won't get that many votes often, but the chance for that stands. This also means Mafia might have an interest to get rid of big bounties themselves to prevent the BH to gain big vote guns for the next day phase.
In conclusion I forsee the BH not used often in early game, maybe some joke Bounties the BH can act on but only small reward. Mid and late game however the bounties on players still in game might grow either due Mafia trying to trick the BH into thinking one of them is a townie by putting a big bounty on him (like 3 votes together with another townie or 2), risky but BH could think that big bounties = townies in truth, whereas small bounties = mafia, or due Townies saying this guy is so suspect (aka a 3rd Innocent Child? Such BS!!! or You are a Prostitute not a doc! XDDD) and they can't get enough support so they try to get that person killed by their votes put away as Bounty on them.
I think that Bounty system will really live things up in the thread. People will accuse others of being mafias trying to get townies killed, some bounties will reveal in fear of being killed or hint strongly the BH shouldn't kill them (a Bounty on a Bulletproof Townie would be so hilarious, same with a Bounty on a Paranoid Gunowner xDDD), mafia might leave townies with bounties alone hoping the BH does the dirty work for them, players who know they will die soon and see no use for their vote to be voted on a guy with 12+ votes (we had such situation quite often) will put a bounty on somebody they suspect in hopes of being right and if not that the BH can use their vote as extra vote late in the game.
At the same time the BH is in a scary position. After all townies might kill him to avoid him killing other townies, mafia might kill him in case of bounties on their head and at the same time he has to hope many would not put bounties on others because sooner or later he will be found out as sole not bounty handing out guy. And him being the sole active killing townie role means he will get a lot of attention and that is because he will be a 2-edged sword that both townies and mafia can put to use - if he wants to be put on use that is. I think it will depend a lot on the personality of the person who gets BH how often he will make use of his ability.^^
First iteration of mafia doc is omo because it implies there's something that can kill the mafia at night? Would be interesting if it also sealed off night actions of the chosen mafia member, maybe.
The alcohol levels stuff... Uh, not a fan. That bounty hunter stuff seems too much like a personal minigame. Its like townside SK nerfed by mentor clauses?¿
Yeah I thought about that, that the Mafia Doc gets the other guy also drunk and misdirects his action (tipsy) or outright fails it (drunk). I mean we can work with Sane, Insane and instead of naive Paranoid Mafia Doc butthen all 3 should have a chance of success, sane 100% ofc, and a chance of failure.
BH is less a mini-game and the reason he can use his role at all. I thought about letting townie have a straight killing role but that is too much of a sword that would bite the townie ass and with bounties the bh can gather votes in late days if needed for the townie side. It was also the idea of a "vote bank" so to say. Put your vote in a bounty and even if you die the BH can still collect it later after killing your target you put it on. I also thought about maybe a Townie Bankier and Mafia or 3rd Role Corporate Raider who also work with ideas of vote interest, that they start small and gain bigger vote numbers late in the game to be put on use though mostly not by themselves but others.
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@Copy Panda Also we could still make the Bounty Hunter a 3rd role. That way he would be truly "neutral" and the mini game about the bounties would make sense. Give him a task like getting 5 bounties or collect a number of votes before the game ends and he wins the game.
Yeah I thought about that, that the Mafia Doc gets the other guy also drunk and misdirects his action (tipsy) or outright fails it (drunk). I mean we can work with Sane, Insane and instead of naive Paranoid Mafia Doc butthen all 3 should have a chance of success, sane 100% ofc, and a chance of failure.
BH is less a mini-game and the reason he can use his role at all. I thought about letting townie have a straight killing role but that is too much of a sword that would bite the townie ass and with bounties the bh can gather votes in late days if needed for the townie side. It was also the idea of a "vote bank" so to say. Put your vote in a bounty and even if you die the BH can still collect it later after killing your target you put it on. I also thought about maybe a Townie Bankier and Mafia or 3rd Role Corporate Raider who also work with ideas of vote interest, that they start small and gain bigger vote numbers late in the game to be put on use though mostly not by themselves but others.
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@Copy Panda Also we could still make the Bounty Hunter a 3rd role. That way he would be truly "neutral" and the mini game about the bounties would make sense. Give him a task like getting 5 bounties or collect a number of votes before the game ends and he wins the game.
It is not that hard to imagine, really. Basically our today's "trading" of stocks is nothing but bets on whenever they will rise or fall. So those "vote interest" guys would bet on stocks aka players with an extra vote, however they get said extra vote only if said player fulfills the condition they put the bet on. Like they bet daily that Player x dies on day y or that Player w survives the coming night phase and so on. If it happens they get the vote, if not the vote is lost and they can't bet on the current phase but only on future ones.
Alright, alright, here are some "easy" to understand straight killing townie roles with no gimmicks whatsoever:
There, easy. A BH who cannot kill townies but can also never be sure if his kill was blocked or misdirected or otherwise.
In this case BH can kill townies but gets no reward for it unlike with mafia kills, so for townies basically the worse version of BH. We could make it a sane and Insane BH, maybe even a naive one who thinks he is a BH but always fails his kill actions no matter who his target is. Would be hilarious as the naive might think he is sane for a while. xD
A killing townie role that can protect itself but at the cost of hiding, which always has the risk that your hiding target gets killed and you with it.
Basically a badass cowboy with night action that can do the duel thing constantly till he dies by said duel or gets killed/lynched. A townie night killing role with a 50% of killing itself seemed very fair to me.
There 3 townie night kill roles that should be cool with the rules and make the game more interesting as now townies might end up killing townies at night, expect they don't use their kill action till later, and ofc are roles mafia could try to use as cover if they got discovered by a spy targeting somebody who died at night. Before it was always "I am insane doc and accidentally killed him, i swear" which was like 100% death. Not sure if townies would be willing to let a BH, Ninja or Desperado live if found but who knows.
@James Rye I like your ideas a lot to be honest, though idk if my opinion is worth anything. I'm probably a very bad judge in terms of whether or not these roles are balanced enough.
though i was thinking that with these 3 roles, you're adding 3 killing roles to townies. Don't you think the games will have too many killing by adding more and more killing roles, even to townies?
@James Rye I like your ideas a lot to be honest, though idk if my opinion is worth anything. I'm probably a very bad judge in terms of whether or not these roles are balanced enough.
though i was thinking that with these 3 roles, you're adding 3 killing roles to townies. Don't you think the games will have too many killing by adding more and more killing roles, even to townies?
That is up to the Host, isn't it? I doubt a host would ever put all 3 killing townie roles into one game, though that alone would be interesting, like one night there is only one kill, next night suddenly 4. Hosts are there to balance the game, like here doing the whole mass traitor thing to hide many traitors or 3 of one role, 3 docs to keep save against 2 mafias, sole escort with no way of blocking her as there is no prostitute, etc.
If anything i think their action should be a onetime thing....then they just become regular townie...even the ninja.
Sounds OP if they can kill every night.
If anything i think their action should be a onetime thing....then they just become regular townie...even the ninja.
Sounds OP if they can kill every night.
Problem is if we do that then they will never use their kill till they are lynched or killed. This way they always had each night a chance to use it and if they missed, then they have to keep quiet about it else townies lynch them to get rid of the townie killing townie role. But ofc if hosts say they should be one time thingie they can be. But I'd rather see them as one kill per night roles that are risky to use as every townie death helps mafia and 3rd roles.
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Well, we can always add a limit like 3 times or that it can only be used if some kind of "trigger" is pulled like a townie got lynched or something like that. @GrySun I think I need some more host approvals than yours and @Copy Panda , any other host active enough to care to check on new roles and how they would fit into the game like Mafia Doc or a Townie active kill action role?
Problem is if we do that then they will never use their kill till they are lynched or killed. This way they always had each night a chance to use it and if they missed, then they have to keep quiet about it else townies lynch them to get rid of the townie killing townie role. But ofc if hosts say they should be one time thingie they can be. But I'd rather see them as one kill per night roles that are risky to use as every townie death helps mafia and 3rd roles.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Well, we can always add a limit like 3 times or that it can only be used if some kind of "trigger" is pulled like a townie got lynched or something like that. @GrySun I think I need some more host approvals than yours and @Copy Panda , any other host active enough to care to check on new roles and how they would fit into the game like Mafia Doc or a Townie active kill action role?
The current people who can approve new roles are me, Panda, Vandred, Lambu, Farfalla, Xadyu and Hardy. If a couple of those agree like 3-4 it‘ll be taken in as a role that „can be tested“ by whichever hosts wants to test it. Prolly make a sticky post in this thread about roles that hosts can test if they want. Then after a test it‘d go into role list if good.
I think @Vandred we should just put up those few roles that most had positive thoughts on already.
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She could've won it because she was lucky and never got targeted by the mafia, but didn't do enough at the day phases. Besides, letting you and Cres alive that game who are pretty much confirmed, and instead killing Gryff who could've been framed was a bad call...
After 1 or so games. Pretty obvious why.
