Discussion New Roles and New Rules Suggestion Thread

[GrySun]

Submissions for new roles need to follow the next format in order to be considered:

I. [Place Holder Name]

II. [Affiliation]

III. [Short Description]

IV. [Long Description/Idea/Premise/Scope]

V. [Priority/RoleType/Interactions/other Specifics]

Spoiler: Examples of Approved roles

I. Troublemaker

II. Town

III. Can once per game make a Day phase lynch be the top 2 voted people instead of regular 1 top voted person. Every player has 2 votes but cannot vote the same player twice.

IV. PMs the host on the night before the day he wishes to use his power on. Host announces at start of day that the 2 top voted players will be lynched.
Everyone gets 2 votes that they can use on 2 individual players. Both can be moved once like usual. Example:
!votekill1 PlayerX
!votekill2 PlayerY
!votelock2 (locks on PlayerY).

Any other format is also fine as long as players specify who they are voting and if it's a new vote or they are changing their first one.

V. Doesn't have a Priority, happens at the end of night after all other actions. Doesn't target another player. Primary role.

Since it happens at the end of a phase, the player can be both blocked and killed to prevent it happening.

I. Psychiatrist

II. Townie

III. The Psychiatrist investigates one person per night phase to see if the player has a Secondary Role. They get a "Your target has a secondary role" if that is the case, and a "Your target does not have a secondary role" if it's not. The Psychiatrist does not find out the allegiance of the target.

IV. It's a counter for scum secondaries without outright revealing them, leaving room for guess work and player reading.

V. Priority 2, Primary Role.

Current roles Approved for testing here

Rules on including those in a game:

• A host can take any of these roles and test them in their game. Depending on results from testing the role it will either be included into the Role list or need more changes/testing.
• A host at the very least has to announce in the opening post of the game that new roles are being tested, or alternatively even more specifically reveal the roles that are being tested.

Link to the last update post with the roles that are either close to approval or were not approved: here.

 

[GrySun]

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 21, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 21, 2019 ---

This going to take forever, isn’t it?

You know who to tag

 

[Copy Panda]

Some suggestions:

1. Mafia Mason change, so he can start without being a fake starting Mason, but someone that can be recruited by the Recruiter without the Recruiter dying. Like a Sleeper Super Mason, except he's already a mafia[/quote]

Yeah, seems good.

2. Real Traitor dies immediately when the last mafia of his mafia group dies, if he hasn't been recruited yet

Alternatively, make traitor a mafia member who cannot kill till they're recruited. This way, they will count towards the body count of the mafia and won't have to just give up despite surviving for so long.

3. Here I'd suggest a change to Witch to make it less similar to Vengeful Townie, but not sure what kind of change. Any ideas, apart from just removing the role?
Either A. focusing on keeping her Curse-killing aspect but making it unrelated to lynches or
B. Scrap everything and make something new that relates to Witches

Idk about any B option at the moment, but for A. I was thinking something like:

Witch 1: The Witch can select a player at the start of the game. If that player dies the enraged Witch can curse any other player who will die the next night. This is a night action and can be blocked, but once the Curse was successfuly done the kill of the next night cannot be prevented in any way.

Witch 2: The Witch can select a player every night. If the Witch dies then she curses the last player she selected(or is allowed to pick between all players she targeted so far during night) who will then die the next night. This Curse kill cannot be prevented in any way.

Thoughts? @Vandred @Lambu @Farfalla @Xadyu @Copy Panda @Hardy

I like the Witch 2 suggestion, I think sth in that vein would have been my suggestion too

 

[Farfalla]

About the Mafia Mason, I'd just add that he can be recruited, but not exclude the part that says he can also continue starting as a Mason.

 

[Vandred]

Mafia Ghoul (Mafia) version 1.5: At the beginning of the game (very beginning), the ghoul choose one player to eat from. Should the ghoul die then the player dies too. If the player dies before the ghoul dies, then the ghoul can switch targets.
(still so kind of like the original where it doesn’t count toward the mafia kill but more of an immediate kill then v1-3; almost like shapeshifting timebomb as oppose to the killer Jesus, but could still come back from the grave in theory and finishes its victim)

Also about it being unblockable kill. We propose a Defuser..... I mean...

Exorcist (Townie): The Exorcist has the ability to stop the mafia ghoul from targeting a player either by:
A. Choosing player/players to protect from the beginning
B. Selecting player to protect every phase

So, basically, Ghoul 1.5 is everything bad about Lovers without all the rest?

At the beginning of the game (very beginning), the ghoul choose one player to eat from.
This is fundamentally wrong, since if it's before D1 has even started you're forced to choose a player randomly, or based on their track record or how much you like them or any other external criteria, rather than their performance within the game you're currently playing. Would need to be changed to N1 at the earliest.

Should the ghoul die then the player dies too.
We already have Mafia Bomb that covers a "revenge kill" for the mafia, this seems to be the same thing but with a chosen target instead of the killer or last voter. I personally don't like the idea that you could drop dead every time a mafia is about to die, it's like you've been paired with someone you should want to keep alive in order to stay alive yourself (the Lovers analogy), except you don't know who they are, or not even that you're marked for death.

In short, the role feels more frustrating than interesting or fun to play, in my eyes.

1. Mafia Mason change, so he can start without being a fake starting Mason, but someone that can be recruited by the Recruiter without the Recruiter dying. Like a Sleeper Super Mason, except he's already a mafia

This change would entirely alter the point and purpose of Masons, as the role of the Recruiter is to risk their own life and the potentially useful town role of your target in order to secretly (or not so much) confirm a townie. If a mafia member could be recruited, then you would never be able to confirm anyone anymore, so the risks would remain but the certainties would be removed. Strong no from me.

2. Real Traitor dies immediately when the last mafia of his mafia group dies, if he hasn't been recruited yet

Works for me, but Panda's idea does too; doesn't count as a mafia member until he's recruited, but turns into a non-killing one if his team is exterminated.

Probably prefer the suicide though, the Traitor's purpose should really be to try and get recruited rather than play solo.

Witch 1: The Witch can select a player at the start of the game. If that player dies the enraged Witch can curse any other player who will die the next night. This is a night action and can be blocked, but once the Curse was successfuly done the kill of the next night cannot be prevented in any way.

Similarly to the Mafia Ghoul, choosing at the start of the game is wrong. Either the player gets randomly assigned by the host, or at least one phase should pass before the Witch can choose. Not a bad idea otherwise.

Witch 2: The Witch can select a player every night. If the Witch dies then she curses the last player she selected(or is allowed to pick between all players she targeted so far during night) who will then die the next night. This Curse kill cannot be prevented in any way.

So this Witch makes a blacklist and can kill any one of them if she dies? Should call this role the Farfalla '_'

Sounds kind of fun though

 

[GrySun]

Alternatively, make traitor a mafia member who cannot kill till they're recruited. This way, they will count towards the body count of the mafia and won't have to just give up despite surviving for so long.

Works for me, but Panda's idea does too; doesn't count as a mafia member until he's recruited, but turns into a non-killing one if his team is exterminated.

Probably prefer the suicide though, the Traitor's purpose should really be to try and get recruited rather than play solo.

I like Panda's suggestion too, but the point of the Traitor should be to make himself a target for mafia without arousing townie suspicion on himself or his teammates. I always find it interesting how a player intends to do just that, and how they play knowing their "team" but not having access to a pad with them just yet.
I think it's a rare situation to happen anyway, but if it does suicide is the way to go I'd say, rather than a rolechange.

This change would entirely alter the point and purpose of Masons, as the role of the Recruiter is to risk their own life and the potentially useful town role of your target in order to secretly (or not so much) confirm a townie. If a mafia member could be recruited, then you would never be able to confirm anyone anymore, so the risks would remain but the certainties would be removed. Strong no from me.

3 people already like it though. And what is with Sleeper Super Mason, I didn't see you getting upset at the possibility of a possibly non-town being recruited by Masons.
Like this it's too predictable with Mafia Mason only being a starting mason. I see your points with it being risky but at the same time right now the only mafia counterplay to Masons is a starting mason that's there from the beginning who completely and utterly trivializes the whole mason group from the start and makes them a non-asset.

At the beginning of the game (very beginning), the ghoul choose one player to eat from.
This is fundamentally wrong, since if it's before D1 has even started you're forced to choose a player randomly, or based on their track record or how much you like them or any other external criteria, rather than their performance within the game you're currently playing. Would need to be changed to N1 at the earliest.

Similarly to the Mafia Ghoul, choosing at the start of the game is wrong. Either the player gets randomly assigned by the host, or at least one phase should pass before the Witch can choose. Not a bad idea otherwise.

I agree with this, things that work by choosing at the beginning are bad and shouldn't exist. Though host randomly choosing it is very pointless, so the better idea for both Ghoul and Witch 1 is that they can pick it any night they wish, but can only pick once.

As for Ghoul @Crescent Jinx I also think Bomb is probably enough for revenge-roles in the mafia team. They'd do better with more practical roles that do more unique things. Though I'm not against it, mainly neutral, if it is made to be N1/nightpickable, but not very excited for it.

So this Witch makes a blacklist and can kill any one of them if she dies? Should call this role the Farfalla '_'

Sounds kind of fun though

Yes kinda like that. Basically between Witch 1 and 2, the main difference is whether Witch should die before doing her curse or not. Those are the 2 best versions i could think of at the moment. Any Witch-related role ideas yourself?

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 22, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 22, 2019 ---

Never got any input from @Lambu on this

Not even @Xadyu and @Evil3ye

 

[Crescent Jinx]

Mafia bomb is such a specific niche role. With townies, you have overlap of some roles to watch out for.... even if they aren’t exciting... Those can extend from PGO and townie Bomb to these lynch killers. But between mafia and third party, there is really no other role besides Bomb that you world regret in killing. With lovers, even though that role needs to be reworked, you have the possibility of a TSC. We introduce a rival role to the ghoul for the town.

. I personally don't like the idea that you could drop dead every time a mafia is about to die

But that’s fun. That fear of whether or not they choose you.

They'd do better with more practical roles that do more unique things.

They don’t do super unique things as is??? And the practical one get overused. Like janitor and Van starts the second day with “Another game, another janitor.”

 

[GrySun]

They don’t do super unique things as is???

As in, they exist to die. Dislike the M. Bomb for that too. A normal mafia member until death. Doesn't make for any extra game plans nor changes any approach. It's just a "oh well I'm dying but I get to do this at least", as opposed to something impactful.

I at least don't see where I'd put the role in my hosted games. Only same cases as M. Bomb, so the 2 roles are very interchangeable.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 22, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 22, 2019 ---

But that’s fun. That fear of whether or not they choose you.

I don't share this definition of fun. It's basically like M. Bomb, except there you can prevent by not voting last, or not killing that player.

 

[Crescent Jinx]

As in, they exist to die. Dislike the M. Bomb for that too. A normal mafia member until death. Doesn't make for any extra game plans nor changes any approach. It's just a "oh well I'm dying but I get to do this at least", as opposed to something impactful.

I at least don't see where I'd put the role in my hosted games. Only same cases as M. Bomb, so the 2 roles are very interchangeable.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 22, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 22, 2019 ---

I don't share this definition of fun. It's basically like M. Bomb, except there you can prevent by not voting last, or not killing that player.

You don’t like Mafia Bomb?! But you like townie Bomb? And you like shapeshifter who dies and potentially could take down half the players in the game? What is this madness?

 

[GrySun]

You don’t like Mafia Bomb?! But you like townie Bomb? And you like shapeshifter who dies and potentially could take down half the players in the game? What is this madness?

What are these bad comparisons? Town Bombs are there to pressure mafia into being careful with their targets, and since he's a single player he also has many ways to play, from lying about the role to seem important to be targeted, trying not to get defused etc. Shapeshifter is the only TP that can survive in games with too many killing actors.

Games aren't about madness, and I dislike how you like it so much. Everything should have some purpose.

As I said, I don't disapprove of the Ghoul, just neutral since it doesn't change anything to a mafia team, unlike every other mafia role.

 

[Crescent Jinx]

Town Bombs are there to pressure mafia into being careful with their targets,

And mafia bomb pressures town to be careful with their kills or lynches. It’s not a bad parallel....

Shapeshifter is the only TP that can survive in games with too many killing actors.

Santa?

Everything should have some purpose.

Agreeed but also should have variety. Town has a lot of variety, even with similar roles. Mafia has very OP roles, couple of bad roles, and the decent ones get used all the time.

 

[GrySun]

And mafia bomb pressures town to be careful with their kills or lynches. It’s not a bad parallel....

Yes but a mafia team of a limited size compared to the entirety of town is different. Playing town and mafia is different. But I dislike Bombs in general, just that town bomb has more usage than mafia bomb.

Santa?

How does he survive when a mafia targets him for a kill?

Agreeed but also should have variety. Town has a lot of variety, even with similar roles. Mafia has very OP roles, couple of bad roles, and the decent ones get used all the time.

There are no bad roles for mafias, that‘s what I think. Every role has it‘s use and is good. Variety for Mafias is good, but this is a rather minor form of variety where I wouldn‘t see when to use M. Bomb and when to use Ghoul because of too much similarity.
This isn‘t a very convincing way for you to tell me the role is needed.

 

[Crescent Jinx]

At the beginning of the game (very beginning), the ghoul choose one player to eat from.
This is fundamentally wrong, since if it's before D1 has even started you're forced to choose a player randomly, or based on their track record or how much you like them or any other external criteria, rather than their performance within the game you're currently playing. Would need to be changed to N1 at the earliest.

The action can be delayed but it should be decently early. At least, N1.

Should the ghoul die then the player dies too.
We already have Mafia Bomb that covers a "revenge kill" for the mafia, this seems to be the same thing but with a chosen target instead of the killer or last voter. I personally don't like the idea that you could drop dead every time a mafia is about to die, it's like you've been paired with someone you should want to keep alive in order to stay alive yourself (the Lovers analogy), except you don't know who they are, or not even that you're marked for death.

It’s less of a revenge kill and more of taking out someone with your death that you get to choose since mafia can kill themselves on bombs just as likely as Town and third part can.

Technically any of the lynch killers could suddenly kill you. It just wouldn’t be limited to a lynch. Also Bomb and PGO could suddenly make you die. DTV could suddenly shoot you. Assassin could also suddenly shoot you. There are a number ways to die.

Yes but a mafia team of a limited size compared to the entirety of town is different. Playing town and mafia is different. But I dislike Bombs in general, just that town bomb has more usage than mafia bomb.

Well that explains your opinion a bit more.

How does he survive when a mafia targets him for a kill?

Given the fact that my mafia career ended that one game via Santa poison, and that the Santa is the only current third party to win a game... in a game with multiple killing parties.... Currently has better odds then SS as long as they don’t directly target. SS just has extra protection over Santa.

There are no bad roles for mafias, that‘s what I think. Every role has it‘s use and is good. Variety for Mafias is good, but this is a rather minor form of variety where I wouldn‘t see when to use M. Bomb and when to use Ghoul because of too much similarity.
This isn‘t a very convincing way for you to tell me the role is needed.

Hmmmm. I can think of two bad ones that a simple updating would fix.

The Mafia Pirate does not have the ability to kill at night like a normal Mafia member, only if the stolen ability allows that. The pirate not being able to kill is an issue, making it a bad role. Every mafia can kill but pirate. Unless this has gotten updated? Even if they take a good role like Shiny did with Jesus, she would be a sitting duck which was why the game ended early. Town has already won if they can kill all other roles but pirate. Every other role could (at least on paper) fight at the chance/kill the townies.

Mafia mason is a bad role. The current design for MM makes it horrible because it’s hardly ever going to be used in a game. It’s condition is to be a starting mason. And when it is used.... it doesn’t have the potential to make it Endgame like other roles. A target it is put on its back just from having mafia mason as a role. Eventually the starting masons will be lynched or investigated by the detectives. Or the mason Recruiter dies fast and the MM is pretty much basic mafia. Not to mention now that we have other methods of doing similar things....with super mason, you can put a super mason on sub Teacher or threesome candidate or sleeper to still recruit scum. And you aren’t limited to only mafia. Hosts can also do a Death miller SM to add confusion. You aren’t limited to super masons. Mentor itself can recruit masons. A MRecruiter can be a lover/traitor like Van did that one game. I dont really see how someone who would hit a MR with lover and traitor would be against a recruitable Mason?

TL;DR mafia mason was once a way to get the mafia in on the mason pad, but at present time, there is a lack of use for a mafia mason as a starter when other options are better.

As for mafia ghoul, there has been 4-5 versions. Think James had a version before the three versions that were put in the neutral category. All versions were based around either a VT/bomb with more choice or a Jesus kill. But those versions were very OP. The current way simplifies it, giving the role more choice which is important to scum play and strategically better at adapting then bomb.

At this point, you could almost take the witch role and make it scum.

That way only have VT and townie Bomb for town and M Bomb and Witch for mafia.

 

[Vandred]

3 people already like it though.

Still gets a big no from me. Might be late to the party, but that's what I think about it.

And what is with Sleeper Super Mason, I didn't see you getting upset at the possibility of a possibly non-town being recruited by Masons.

SM Sleeper is mostly fine because, unlike the suggested change to Mafia Mason:

1) He's still primarily pro-town, until the eventuality that he gets recruited (and he wasn't actually a Regular Townie or Death Miller) he should work towards the town's victory rather than against it;
2) The concept is more akin to Mentor recruitment, which is always a possibility already and essentially means no townie is ever 100% confirmed forever;
3) The mafia and the Mentor recruiting someone is technically detectable, whereas the Masons recruiting a Mafia Mason would never be.

There's a reason why a real Traitor isn't Mason-recruitable either, after all. But let's not forget that SM Sleeper is the main role combination that we considered whether or not to actually include, which means I'm open to the possibility of it getting removed or tweaked so that, for example, the Recruiter is notified when he's recruited a Super Mason and so on.

Like this it's too predictable with Mafia Mason only being a starting mason. I see your points with it being risky but at the same time right now the only mafia counterplay to Masons is a starting mason that's there from the beginning who completely and utterly trivializes the whole mason group from the start and makes them a non-asset.

I agree, the current Mafia Mason doesn't really have a reason of existing anymore, but I don't think the proposed change is a way to fix that. We'll just go from being unable to trust any starting Mason to being unable to trust any Mason. Not quite an improvement, if you ask me...

Yes kinda like that. Basically between Witch 1 and 2, the main difference is whether Witch should die before doing her curse or not. Those are the 2 best versions i could think of at the moment. Any Witch-related role ideas yourself?

None that I ever thought about, but your suggestions look fine to me at the moment. If I get any, I'll be sure to bring them up

But that’s fun. That fear of whether or not they choose you.

As fun as getting killed out of nowhere, so... not much, I think? Can't speak for everyone, but I don't think it would be a very fun role for the Ghoul either, to be honest.

It’s less of a revenge kill and more of taking out someone with your death that you get to choose since mafia can kill themselves on bombs just as likely as Town and third part can.

Technically any of the lynch killers could suddenly kill you. It just wouldn’t be limited to a lynch. Also Bomb and PGO could suddenly make you die. DTV could suddenly shoot you. Assassin could also suddenly shoot you. There are a number ways to die.

Revenge kill in this case = a one-time extra kill for the mafia on a semi-random target that you get as a compensation of sorts for one of your mafia dying. Which is only slightly different from Mafia Bomb.

Not sure what the point is about listing all those ways to die in the game - mine was that this suggested role shared its death condition with one of the roles that are considered the least fun to play (or see crash when you're hosting) mostly because of this very reason, meaning Lovers. Translating this badly-received mechanic to a new role isn't exactly an exciting idea for me...

I just don't see this Mafia Ghoul iteration being different enough, or bringing something interesting enough, or being fun enough in my opinion, to be added to the role list.

 

[GrySun]

SS just has extra protection over Santa.

Over any TP for that matter, there we go, reached the earlier mentioned conclusion that it‘s the most survivable TP.

Hmmmm. I can think of two bad ones that a simple updating would fix.

If you or anyone got update suggestions to existing roles I‘d always love to hear about them. o/

The Mafia Pirate does not have the ability to kill at night like a normal Mafia member, only if the stolen ability allows that. The pirate not being able to kill is an issue, making it a bad role. Every mafia can kill but pirate. Unless this has gotten updated? Even if they take a good role like Shiny did with Jesus, she would be a sitting duck which was why the game ended early. Town has already won if they can kill all other roles but pirate. Every other role could (at least on paper) fight at the chance/kill the townies.

It hasn‘t been changed yet no. It could be tested, but there‘s 2 things:
1. It could make the role too OP. Right now it‘s up to the mafia team to know who to steal from, and to account for having a Pirate, meaning he should be the one to take the fall unless he got a role that can kill.
2. It would salvage a bad role steal to the point that a Townie lost their role while the Pirate can still kill like a normal mafia, while for a great role steal it‘d be very strong.

But maybe I‘m overestimating it. It‘s certainly something that could be discussed and have everyone give their thoughts on. But I personally would love if my mafia team had a Pirate even if he can‘t kill, opens up lots of possibilities.

Mafia mason is a bad role. The current design for MM makes it horrible because it’s hardly ever going to be used in a game. It’s condition is to be a starting mason. And when it is used.... it doesn’t have the potential to make it Endgame like other roles. A target it is put on its back just from having mafia mason as a role. Eventually the starting masons will be lynched or investigated by the detectives. Or the mason Recruiter dies fast and the MM is pretty much basic mafia. Not to mention now that we have other methods of doing similar things....with super mason, you can put a super mason on sub Teacher or threesome candidate or sleeper to still recruit scum. And you aren’t limited to only mafia. Hosts can also do a Death miller SM to add confusion. You aren’t limited to super masons. Mentor itself can recruit masons. A MRecruiter can be a lover/traitor like Van did that one game. I dont really see how someone who would hit a MR with lover and traitor would be against a recruitable Mason?

There‘s several points you‘re raising here:

-It being horrible: It trivializes the whole Mason group turning them into a semi-asset for Mafia. So if hosts wish to put in useless Masons in the game that role allows it(as you can guess from the wording I‘m not fond of the role, but it definitely has a powerful use).

-A target put on it‘s back: Exactly why I‘m wishing to change it so it‘s not a starting Mason only. Like this it‘s certainly boring and predictable.

-Recruiter dying fast: That‘s great though? Mafia either uses him to destroy town roles or to search for other TPs/mafias, or even blame a townie for his death if only the mafia mason is alive to tell the target.

-We have other methods now: Two flaws here. One is that Super Mason isn‘t approved yet, just being tested. Second one is that neither one puts a mafia on the Masons, only roles that could potentially change sides. And with Mentor anyone could change sides always, but that role being ingame is more detectable like Vand said.

-M Recruiter Lover Traitor??? - I don‘t remember the game you speak of that had this, but it sounds very bad.

As for mafia ghoul, there has been 4-5 versions. Think James had a version before the three versions that were put in the neutral category. All versions were based around either a VT/bomb with more choice or a Jesus kill. But those versions were very OP. The current way simplifies it, giving the role more choice which is important to scum play and strategically better at adapting then bomb.

I checked back the reasons why Ghoul wasn‘t approved back then. It wasn‘t related to power/being OP or not, but that it‘s like M Bomb and not very exciting or inspired. Your proposed change did not address that part, only changed how the killing works. So it‘s kinda getting the same reception from the same people that were neutral on the Ghoul too.

At this point, you could almost take the witch role and make it scum.

That way only have VT and townie Bomb for town and M Bomb and Witch for mafia.

I mean we could, or we change Witch as a townie role to be distinct from VT. Although Witch as it is right now would be a weaker version of Mafia Bomb no? Kill delayed, only works when lynched rather than daykills or nightkills too, with the only benefit being choice.
Not terrible by any means, just neutral on it since it‘s not some exciting gamechanger role that I‘d love putting in my games, unlike the recent Mafia Doctor I heavily wanted considering the heavy amount of nightkills lately in our games.

 

[Farfalla]

Oh, before I forget again, we discussed saving the poor revamping the SK role in the Deadpad. Was it something like this the last idea we discussed?

• Serial Killer (Third Party): The Serial Killer is like a lone Mafia Member. He kills once per night and his goal is to be the sole survivor. The Serial Killer studies his victims and is able to learn the ability of the first one he kills that belongs to the Investigating, Blocking or Voting related roles groups.

 

[Vandred]

-M Recruiter Lover Traitor??? - I don‘t remember the game you speak of that had this, but it sounds very bad.

Don't look down on my experiments Can understand if you removed the trauma though.

Oh, before I forget again, we discussed saving the poor revamping the SK role in the Deadpad. Was it something like this the last idea we discussed?

• Serial Killer (Third Party): The Serial Killer is like a lone Mafia Member. He kills once per night and his goal is to be the sole survivor. The Serial Killer studies his victims and is able to learn the ability of the first one he kills that belongs to the Investigating, Blocking or Voting related roles groups.

I'd rather SK remained as the "Vanilla Townie" of TPs, but how would that suggestion work exactly? He can choose whether to kill or use the new action, I assume?

 

[Lambu]

1. Mafia Mason change, so he can start without being a fake starting Mason, but someone that can be recruited by the Recruiter without the Recruiter dying. Like a Sleeper Super Mason, except he's already a mafia

2. Real Traitor dies immediately when the last mafia of his mafia group dies, if he hasn't been recruited yet

3. Here I'd suggest a change to Witch to make it less similar to Vengeful Townie, but not sure what kind of change. Any ideas, apart from just removing the role?
Either A. focusing on keeping her Curse-killing aspect but making it unrelated to lynches or
B. Scrap everything and make something new that relates to Witches

1. Neutral: It will improve the Mafia Mason in a way that it will be used in set ups again, but I also get Van's point on it trivializing the Recruiter's power of confirming townies.
Won't oppose to see it tested tho.

2. Agreed: Traitor has nothing to do after his team is done for, put him out of his misery I say

3. Agreed: I would go for something thats not related to killing tho, cursing in a way that jinxes the player... How about the curse turns the target into a Freeman/Burden? Sounds spicy

Mafia Ghoul (Mafia) version 1.5: At the beginning of the game (very beginning), the ghoul choose one player to eat from. Should the ghoul die then the player dies too. If the player dies before the ghoul dies, then the ghoul can switch targets.
(still so kind of like the original where it doesn’t count toward the mafia kill but more of an immediate kill then v1-3; almost like shapeshifting timebomb as oppose to the killer Jesus, but could still come back from the grave in theory and finishes its victim)

I have to agree with Gry on this, its random and just a Bomb that chooses who to take with him to the grave... without the other having nothing to say in the matter, I dislike it.

M Recruiter Lover Traitor??? - I don‘t remember the game you speak of that had this, but it sounds very bad.

I think she means shinobi from KH Game, and we all know how it ended... right @Asako

Anyway, the point is roles should have a purpose to fulfill in the set up as a whole, not just because its fun to mess with things or players.

Oh, before I forget again, we discussed saving the poor revamping the SK role in the Deadpad. Was it something like this the last idea we discussed?

• Serial Killer (Third Party): The Serial Killer is like a lone Mafia Member. He kills once per night and his goal is to be the sole survivor. The Serial Killer studies his victims and is able to learn the ability of the first one he kills that belongs to the Investigating, Blocking or Voting related roles groups.

I really like this and it would be cool to elaborate on the buff, SK needs a rework.

 

[Farfalla]

Don't look down on my experiments Can understand if you removed the trauma though.




I'd rather SK remained as the "Vanilla Townie" of TPs, but how would that suggestion work exactly? He can choose whether to kill or use the new action, I assume?

Oh yeah that, would have to be added as well. And no, we talked about his differential being that once he acquires the skill, he'd be able to perform a double action (killing+skill, each following their own priority).

 

[GrySun]

SM Sleeper is mostly fine because, unlike the suggested change to Mafia Mason:

1) He's still primarily pro-town, until the eventuality that he gets recruited (and he wasn't actually a Regular Townie or Death Miller) he should work towards the town's victory rather than against it;
2) The concept is more akin to Mentor recruitment, which is always a possibility already and essentially means no townie is ever 100% confirmed forever;
3) The mafia and the Mentor recruiting someone is technically detectable, whereas the Masons recruiting a Mafia Mason would never be.

There's a reason why a real Traitor isn't Mason-recruitable either, after all. But let's not forget that SM Sleeper is the main role combination that we considered whether or not to actually include, which means I'm open to the possibility of it getting removed or tweaked so that, for example, the Recruiter is notified when he's recruited a Super Mason and so on.

I understand your general point of why you dislike it(recruiting relevance), and agree with the 3 points you said here. But I really feel like the starting-mason-only Mafia Mason isn‘t well-made. It goes beyond just countering Masons by making them pawns for the mafia, while also being a predictable thing. This change would do exactly that, make you not only suspect starting masons but later-recruits too.

Like this there‘s only either games where the Recruiter starts alone, or games where the Recruiter is useless due to a Mafia starting mason. In the first case mafia don‘t have any real counterplay to the Masons, while in second case they‘re already counterplayed from the get-go. I‘d want something inbetween, which this change would be. A Mafia Mason trying to be recruited would be fun gameplay for the mafias and a counterplay to Masons.

What are your thoughts? Would you keep it as it currently is, or try changing M Mason in a way that he‘s not only a starting-mason trap? I‘d accept a different approach if I could think of one, but atm I only see the option of him being recruitable.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 23, 2019 ---

Oh, before I forget again, we discussed saving the poor revamping the SK role in the Deadpad. Was it something like this the last idea we discussed?

• Serial Killer (Third Party): The Serial Killer is like a lone Mafia Member. He kills once per night and his goal is to be the sole survivor. The Serial Killer studies his victims and is able to learn the ability of the first one he kills that belongs to the Investigating, Blocking or Voting related roles groups.

Oh yeah that, would have to be added as well. And no, we talked about his differential being that once he acquires the skill, he'd be able to perform a double action (killing+skill, each following their own priority).

I wonder whether that should be it‘s own new role rather than changing SK though Say if they were 2 roles, would you when hosting ever think of using normal SK instead of that one, or would you always prefer using the modified SK?

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 23, 2019 ---

Don't look down on my experiments Can understand if you removed the trauma though.

Maybe it was the trauma. I had completely forgotten about it, just found the game after searching. I was a Mason, I see I see...

That said it also brings back memories that the other lover died very early so the experiment concluded without any results.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 23, 2019 ---

3. Agreed: I would go for something thats not related to killing tho, cursing in a way that jinxes the player... How about the curse turns the target into a Freeman/Burden? Sounds spicy

Hmhm, how would it work? Post-death, or a 1-time ability the Witch can use anytime? Could be pretty OP if she holds onto it until there‘s basically a confirmed mafia, and turn him into a Burden for an extra heavy blow. May even be stronger than an outright kill tbh

 

[Farfalla]

The modified one, the current SK feels unfair to play with when you have Mentor and SS around, it's just too hard to beat the game with it. Not to mention it's alrdy a vanilla version of those two, as Van said, which sucks honestly lmao. No one likes to get a vanilla townie role inside their gatcha role PM, for example.