Discussion NNT versus thread

[Samael Morningstar]

Nah the degrading body is a curse from the DK, it just also happens that his magic, Crisis, increases his strength as he gets more injured. Puts him in a tough spot on the durability front, though pretty good on the offensive front. He doesn't seem to get darkness regen either, which is a pretty big loss

Yes right I just remembered.
But I don't think the darkness was not working for them I mean their regeneration at least after defusing their darkness should have been active but they didn't regenerate because the greatest sun was that powerful, that's why even the regeneration didn't work

 

[Seven777]

Yes right I just remembered.
But I don't think the darkness was not working for them I mean their regeneration at least after defusing their darkness should have been active but they didn't regenerate because the greatest sun was that powerful, that's why even the regeneration didn't work

He couldn't regen from any of Ludo's attacks either though. It makes sense too, why bother cursing someone with a degrading body if he can just use darkness to regen anyway. As I understand it, Greatest Sun weakened him to the point where he could no longer resist the DK's punishment of being two people, and thus split in two again.

 

[Samael Morningstar]

He couldn't regen from any of Ludo's attacks either though. It makes sense too, why bother cursing someone with a degrading body if he can just use darkness to regen anyway. As I understand it, Greatest Sun weakened him to the point where he could no longer resist the DK's punishment of being two people, and thus split in two again.

No I meant after they defused into chandler and cussack their regeneration should have worked its definitely that greatest sun had power enough to negate the regeneration

 

[Killerbee12]

Around 11:50 to noon. Escanor power level show be between 130,000 to 140,000 thousand. Remember he was able to damage Meliodas who at the time power level was 142,000

 

[Shadowlord123]

While it's true the Sinner's body was degrading thanks to the DK's curse, at the same time he was growing stronger thanks to Crisis. The damage he took from Ludo wasn't that great, he could continue fighting without problems and even after the multiple power-ups he had against Ludo (Crisis) he still got oneshotted by Mael. Him being fresh wouldn't change anything IMO. His body would have been in better conditions surely, but at the same time he wouldn't have had the multiple power-ups Crisis gave him. Overall, I'd say that fresh or not, the Sinner still gets oneshotted.

Putting that aside, Sinner's swordsmanship isn't even that impressive. Rhitta charged Night Escanor could tank and block his attacks, so Zeldris should be able to do it as well. Zeldris also showed far better speed feats than him, considering how he was able to pretty much blitz Mael in single combat while being bloodlusted. Sure, maybe Mael wasn't going for the kill, but that doesn't undermine Zel's feat and the fact that he was able to considerably hurt him from one attack.

 

[Samael Morningstar]

One mode Escanor vs DK(strength match)
And
One mode escanor vs the sages from DK and the sinner
Who wins

 

[Seven777]

While it's true the Sinner's body was degrading thanks to the DK's curse, at the same time he was growing stronger thanks to Crisis. The damage he took from Ludo wasn't that great, he could continue fighting without problems and even after the multiple power-ups he had against Ludo (Crisis) he still got oneshotted by Mael. Him being fresh wouldn't change anything IMO. His body would have been in better conditions surely, but at the same time he wouldn't have had the multiple power-ups Crisis gave him. Overall, I'd say that fresh or not, the Sinner still gets oneshotted.

Putting that aside, Sinner's swordsmanship isn't even that impressive. Rhitta charged Night Escanor could tank and block his attacks, so Zeldris should be able to do it as well. Zeldris also showed far better speed feats than him, considering how he was able to pretty much blitz Mael in single combat while being bloodlusted. Sure, maybe Mael wasn't going for the kill, but that doesn't undermine Zel's feat and the fact that he was able to considerably hurt him from one attack.

As far as i'm aware Crisis doesn't make him more durable, just more powerful, he wasn't tanking Ludo's attacks any better as he powered up. As for the damage up to that point not being that great, I dunno man, he looked pretty damn trashed

Spoiler

Dude looked like he was already ready to turn to dust. Tbh even Cusack's durability seems far greater than either Zeldris or the Sinner and I chalk that up to degradation.

For swordsmanship, Cusack seemed to imply he was more skilled than Zeldris. Speed I won't deny, it's kinda Zel's forte.

 

[Shadowlord123]

One mode Escanor vs DK(strength match)
And
One mode escanor vs the sages from DK and the sinner
Who wins

- DK wins easily.
- The sages are getting oneshotted here. The physical sage got oneshotted by Zel's Nebula and his attacks didn't do much damage to him either. The magical sage also got oneshotted by Zel. His attacks tho, were far more impressive so I'd say those can definitely hurt The One. The moment The One catches them, it's a oneshot. The Sinner didn't show any feats that made me think he would stand a chance at beating The One, so unless Escanor has the one minute time limit, he wins.

As far as i'm aware Crisis doesn't make him more durable, just more powerful, he wasn't tanking Ludo's attacks any better as he powered up. As for the damage up to that point not being that great, I dunno man, he looked pretty damn trashed

Spoiler

Dude looked like he was already ready to turn to dust. Tbh even Cusack's durability seems far greater than either Zeldris or the Sinner and I chalk that up to degradation.

For swordsmanship, Cusack seemed to imply he was more skilled than Zeldris. Speed I won't deny, it's kinda Zel's forte.

That's debatable. To me it looked like he tanked the second attack considerably better than the first one.

- First attack: https://www.mangareader.net/nanatsu-no-taizai/297/11
- Second attack: https://www.mangareader.net/nanatsu-no-taizai/297/12

It looks like the first attack makes considerably more damage than the second one judging by his expression alone. He also recovered from each attack immediately and counterattacked. He's far from being fine I agree, but I don't think he's on death's door as you're implying. I agree that the constant degradation must take a toll on his durability, but we don't know by how much. It's pointless trying to argue how much more durable would he be without the punishment because we don't have anything to look at and compare.

Maybe you're right and the damage he took from Ludo's attacks was incredibly high and he could have tanked the attack had he been on good conditions, but I don't see the damage he took being that great. Even if he could tank it, it's for sure he would end up being on death's door judging by how the attack was enough to separate them again and leave them almost dead.

When it comes to swordsmanship Cusack showed better feats than Zeldris in 1st DM. However, in 2nd DM he was able to compete with Mael to some extent (even if he was holding back) and he was even able to blitz and considerably hurt him from one attack at some point. To me, that's far more impressive than what Cusack or The Sinner did show.

 

[Samael Morningstar]

- DK wins easily.
- The sages are getting oneshotted here. The physical sage got oneshotted by Zel's Nebula and his attacks didn't do much damage to him either. The magical sage also got oneshotted by Zel. His attacks tho, were far more impressive so I'd say those can definitely hurt The One. The moment The One catches them, it's a oneshot. The Sinner didn't show any feats that made me think he would stand a chance at beating The One, so unless Escanor has the one minute time limit, he wins.



That's debatable. To me it looked like he tanked the second attack considerably better than the first one.

- First attack: https://www.mangareader.net/nanatsu-no-taizai/297/11
- Second attack: https://www.mangareader.net/nanatsu-no-taizai/297/12

It looks like the first attack makes considerably more damage than the second one judging by his expression alone. He also recovered from each attack immediately and counterattacked. He's far from being fine I agree, but I don't think he's on death's door as you're implying. I agree that the constant degradation must take a toll on his durability, but we don't know by how much. It's pointless trying to argue how much more durable would he be without the punishment because we don't have anything to look at and compare.

Maybe you're right and the damage he took from Ludo's attacks was incredibly high and he could have tanked the attack had he been on good conditions, but I don't see the damage he took being that great. Even if he could tank it, it's for sure he would end up being on death's door judging by how the attack was enough to separate them again and leave them almost dead.

When it comes to swordsmanship Cusack showed better feats than Zeldris in 1st DM. However, in 2nd DM he was able to compete with Mael to some extent (even if he was holding back) and he was even able to blitz and considerably hurt him from one attack at some point. To me, that's far more impressive than what Cusack or The Sinner did show.

Well about the DK winning against one physically is quite debatable I mean just a karate chop and a finger shot from one escanor has only been shown nothing more so I believe both DK mel and One escanor may go in a tie in their physical strength fight

 

[Seven777]

- DK wins easily.
- The sages are getting oneshotted here. The physical sage got oneshotted by Zel's Nebula and his attacks didn't do much damage to him either. The magical sage also got oneshotted by Zel. His attacks tho, were far more impressive so I'd say those can definitely hurt The One. The moment The One catches them, it's a oneshot. The Sinner didn't show any feats that made me think he would stand a chance at beating The One, so unless Escanor has the one minute time limit, he wins.



That's debatable. To me it looked like he tanked the second attack considerably better than the first one.

- First attack: https://www.mangareader.net/nanatsu-no-taizai/297/11
- Second attack: https://www.mangareader.net/nanatsu-no-taizai/297/12

It looks like the first attack makes considerably more damage than the second one judging by his expression alone. He also recovered from each attack immediately and counterattacked. He's far from being fine I agree, but I don't think he's on death's door as you're implying. I agree that the constant degradation must take a toll on his durability, but we don't know by how much. It's pointless trying to argue how much more durable would he be without the punishment because we don't have anything to look at and compare.

Maybe you're right and the damage he took from Ludo's attacks was incredibly high and he could have tanked the attack had he been on good conditions, but I don't see the damage he took being that great. Even if he could tank it, it's for sure he would end up being on death's door judging by how the attack was enough to separate them again and leave them almost dead.

When it comes to swordsmanship Cusack showed better feats than Zeldris in 1st DM. However, in 2nd DM he was able to compete with Mael to some extent (even if he was holding back) and he was even able to blitz and considerably hurt him from one attack at some point. To me, that's far more impressive than what Cusack or The Sinner did show.

I guess, but I personally find it unlikely that a body that is said to be "welcoming death" is getting more and more durable. The fact that this was mentioned just as Mael showed up to oneshot him also gave me the impression that Nakaba was intentionally letting us know how limited the Sinner's body was at the time to foreshadow his defeat.

Mael was kinda kicking Zeldris' ass though, sure Zel got a good hit on him, but that was cause of Zel's speed, he blitzed him and then hit him from behind and like I said, I acknowledge Zeldris is likely faster than Cusack. When it came to a clash of blade against blade, Mael was the superior combatant, though you could attribute that to his presumably superior strength. I also wouldn't say Mael is a more skilled swordsman than Ludo.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Well about the DK winning against one physically is quite debatable I mean just a karate chop and a finger shot from one escanor has only been shown nothing more so I believe both DK mel and One escanor may go in a tie in their physical strength fight

Oh, you were refering to DK Mel? I thought you meant the DK in his own body. I don't know why, but DK Mel's feats are nowhere near as impressive as the feats the DK in his original body has. DK in his OG Body literally stomped Ban, Mel (without OG magic) and Wild for 60 years non-stop, even when they discovered his ability they could barely escape. DK in Mel's body on the other hand was probably limited from inside and couldn't use his full power (not to mention that he probably was still adapting to that new body). I'd say an unrestricted and prepared DK Mel is just as good or even slightly better than the DK in his OG Body. After all, it wouldn't make any sense that the DK was way stronger in his OG Body when he himself stated that he wanted a young and more powerful body.

DK Mel is only limited to physical strength, right? In that case, he should win mid diff at most, maybe low IMO. Zeldris thought it was almost impossible for Mel with 0 Commandments to have lost to The One, which suggests that Prime Mel should be at least comparable to The One (which is further reinforced when Zel, who is weaker than AM Mel, can block some of his attacks and scratch him). The DK has that body + the power of the 10C which is far above Prime Mel. It should be overkill, tbh.

If you change Noon Escanor with Noon Mael, it would be more debatable (again only physical strength), but I still think DK Mel wins with high difficulty.

 

[AvatarReiko]

The One Escanor vs Near Noon Mael (11:30am)

 

[Ger]

Lmao DK mel vs escanor? Please look how mael with sunshine which can be argued to be stronger than escanor st his peak and yet DK didn't use his magic and literally everyone's attack were getting blocked. Zeldris already disproves that

 

[AvatarReiko]

Ban vs The One Escanor

 

[Samael Morningstar]

The One Escanor vs Near Noon Mael (11:30am)

We've not seen near noon mael's power so can't decide
If it's afternoon mael vs one escanor
Then definitely one mode escanor wins

 

[Meliodaf]

Nah, Ludoret couldn't beat Zeldris himself but even then he was still the better/faster swordsman (ON is a technique so it doesn't count as Zeldris can't move that fast in regular combat)

If we're talking real body Ludociel and not the weak and disappearing kind then Zeldris is done

GOD doesn't matter as Ludociel can blitz Zeldris in an instant and finish him right here and there

ON is the real problem, Ludo can't stop it with magic because of GOD, and idk if he can find a way around it but if he does then it's game over

Zeldris is essentially a one trick pony, and we've all seen what happens when his main technique gets cancelled (The One and Mael)


To those who say "remove flash from Ludo and GOD from Zeldris and Zeldris wins"

Hell no, without GOD he's a free non-moving target for magic, Ludociel can blast him with the biggest fking Ark he can make and GG

anyone with a higher PL can kill him with a big enough magic spell (assuming they survive ON's first strike)

I don’t think the vessel was keeping Ludo fat enough from his power to say in his actual body he would have won. I understand it but I disagree because the only counter we’ve seen is pure overwhelming power and I don’t think he has that . Zeldris was virtually invincible against him. Also look at who beat Zeldris: Escanor, Mael, Meliodas and the Demon King. That’s as strong as it gets in this manga. That’s 4 of the top 5 most powerful characters.(in my opinion) And While Ominous Nebula made him faster than Ludociel, his natural speed appears to be superior because Ludo’s comes from Flash. Ludociel admitted Zeldris was faster. Without God Ludociel would win because he could use magical attacks. With God I don’t think Ludociel is strong enough. Ominous Nebula is to fast for him to land physical blows and he can’t use magic. He’d just be ripped to shreds.

I could be wrong but I think something confirmed that vessels don’t make you weaker.

--- Double Post Merged, May 29, 2019, Original Post Date: May 29, 2019 ---

The One Escanor vs Near Noon Mael (11:30am)

The one that’s invincible

 

[Ger]

The one that’s invincible

Theres no such thing as an invincible in this manga. Everyone has proven they're NOT.

 

[HHellenn]

I could be wrong but I think something confirmed that vessels don’t make you weaker.

What?

Q/A 298 chapter:
Q325: (Missa-san from Yamaguchi prefecture) Does the Goddess' power when they possess a human change when they don't?
A: It depends on their compatibility with them but naturally, they're fundamentally stronger in their real bodies.

 

[victim]

About ludo vs Zel. Ludo couldnt hold back zel darkness while he could casually hold back sinner with flash. He could match mael in 1v1. Mael was holding back please, mael was trying to defeat zel too. In terms of potential zel isnt in his peak yet so overral zel is stronger than ludo

 

[Ger]

About ludo vs Zel. Ludo couldnt hold back zel darkness while he could casually hold back sinner with flash. He could match mael in 1v1. Mael was holding back please, mael was trying to defeat zel too. In terms of potential zel isnt in his peak yet so overral zel is stronger than ludo

That was my point as well. Ludo couldnt hold back the darkness that Zeldris summoned with the same ability that he used to fend off the Sinner who got massively pushed back.